HUGE NEWS on Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome!

[Frozen]

This is BIG!
There's been a new follow-up to the Bodkin experiment!
(I told you it was big.) This new study not only re-enforces the original Bodkin findings (proving buprenorphine to effectively neutralize treatment resistant depression, in more cases than not), but even goes as far as admitting:

"Possibly, the response to opiates describes a special subtype of depressive disorders e.g corresponding to a dysregulation of the endogenous opioid system and not of the monaminergic system."

http://www.coretext.org/show_detail.asp?recno=8086

Gee... ya think? What the fuck have I been saying here all along? Won't you people in medical orthodoxy please catch up to me already, so my frantic efforts to spread knowledge of a syndrome that supposedly doesn't exist will no longer be required?

...and what's the deal with cortisol? I really need to know about that. Can cortisol levels be adjusted with non-opioid substances? Jacky? PrettyPoppy?

_______________
Background: Though opium and its derivates is still used in medical
therapy today only as a strong analgesic, the history of this group of
substances is shaped much from their use of mental disorders, which can be
traced back into Europe's Psychiatry of the Classic Era (1). First the
development of the MAO-inhibitors and he tricyclic antidepressants
detached the administration of opiates as the most conventional medicinal
treatment form of depressive disorders. in the last decades, only a few
publications reported on the antidepressive effects of opiates (2), in
particular of buprenorphine, which was attributed an especially small
potential for development of dependence, on account of its mixed partially
agonistic activity on the u-opioid-receptor and antagonists activity on
the e-opioid receptor. Moreover, buprenorphine shows a favourable
influence on affectivity, as is known from the substitution treatment of
heroine addicts and also in non-addicted patients. But it is still not
clear, which depressed patients benefit from a treatment with opiates and
which don't. Nowadays, despite the expanding armary of the newer
antidepressants, about 23-30% of patients do not respond to medication and
12-15% of these lead to a chronic depression. Though the dexamethasone
suppression test (DST) has a sensitivity of only 40-70% in severe
depression, it is one of the few neuroendocrine strategies that offers
insights in the pathophysiology of depression and will help define more
homogeneous subgroups from a bioclinical and therapeutic viewpoint.
Method: In an open label study we included 11 patients (7 f, 4m, 51.2y)
suffering from severe depression according to the ICD-10-criteria for at
least 12 months. The patients were refractory to SSRI's tricyclic
antidepressants, tranylcypromine, venlafaxine and various combinations.
the DST followed after a wash-out-phase of 3 days without any
antidepresants (2mg dexamethasone at 11 pm, serum cortisol level at 8 am).
Then the patients were administered buprenorphine as monotherapy in a
final dosage of 0.8-2.0 mg once daily. the course was documented with the
HAMD and the BDI.
Results: Within 1 week, 7 patients responded to buprenorphine
corresponding to a decrease in the HAMD and the BDI scores for at least
50%. In 5 responders, the cortisol levels were completely suppressed, 2
responders achieved cortisol levels of 1.3 and1.6ug/dl. The 4
non-responders achieved cortisol levels of1.0, 2.0, 2.1 and3.ug/dl
(p=0.02).
Conclusion: The DST in depressed patients responding to buprenorphine
yielded significantly lower cortisol levels than in non-responding
patients. However, cortisol secretion and failure to suppress cortisol in
response to dexamethasone have been consistently associated with severe
depression (3). Possibly, the response to opiates describes a special
subtype of depressive disorders e.g corresponding to a dysregulation of
the endogenous opioid system and not of the monaminergic system.

[Nile_dancer]

Good find R-den, not that I'm all that suprised.

[Nile_dancer]

Off the top of my head, cortisol is a stress hormone, and I believe it's boosted in depression, so a marker of success, to some extent, would be a lowering of cortisol, though, as far as I know, there's never been any agreed biochemical test/marker for depression (I could be wrong here).

Also, interestingly, I've heard that SSRI's actually boost cortisol up to 5x normal levels. If that's so, they are probably extremely toxic.

[jacky]

people have been treated with opiates for depression before, just not in the last 20 years it seems.

also, a few antidepressant type compounds have been synthed from salvinorin a.

this is some interesting data you present, and a step in the right direction.

I know that effexor and tramadol are very similiar in structure, and they both effect the opiate, dopamine, and serotonin systems. both are addicting, and both can be stimulating. both also seem to inhibit orgasm to a degree, both seem to reverse some depression symptoms, and both can relieve pain. I know, I have used both for months at a time, and also while not taking much poly drug combos at the time.

my doctor way back when told me that effexor seemed to work best on opiate addicts who were depressed after withdrawing from heroin. no wonder.

opiates and depression I think will be addressed in the not to far future, and it doesnt take too many scientists to change "important" minds.

just read the book "Intoxication" by Ronald K. Siegel PHD and you might have some hope.

[Opiyum]

Is this a step towards doctors being permitted to prescribe opiates for depression? If so thats...well i dont need to tell any of you how that makes me feel.
I just hope i see that in my lifetime.
Who knows. Maybe all of us here will get to experience what it was like to be a junky pretax act and narcotics act. I sleep good tonight thinking about this wonderful news. intentionally getting my hopes up for just one night at the very least.

Much love. Reardon metal.

[Beautifully_Broken]

thank you so much rm! im emailing that to everyone i know who has doubted me about my EDS

[Paregoric Kid]

I think people are jumping to conclusions about the cause of depression. it's possible such a syndrome exists but to say that because opiates can eliminate depression does not necessarily mean their depression was caused by naturally low endorphin/enkephalin levels. you could give opiates to someone whose depression is not a result of low endorphin levels and it would likely also eliminate their depression.

[jacky]

and obviously taking opiates will usually help lead to depression or depressing effects or depressing accidental overdoses at least once in ones using career.

but I think the "magic" happens with more than just mu agonists, kappa, and delta agonsts seem to have some real potential.....maybe more than the mu agonists actually. the kappa opioid agonist salvinorin a has some potential as an antidepressant.
and this paper cites buprenorphine as an antideppressant type of compound potentially.

I think taking an opiate/opioid everyday for long periods of time will face most people with some depressing effects, and the whole cycle of addiction may or may not play out, but they really seem to help with anxiety, adhd, depression, and other physical/mental problems.


and all the variable reactions to the drugs will be paradoxical if trying to use a catch all diagnoses in these cases.

[HistoryofMadness]

Originally Posted by Paregoric Kid

I think people are jumping to conclusions about the cause of depression. it's possible such a syndrome exists but to say that because opiates can eliminate depression does not necessarily mean their depression was caused by naturally low endorphin/enkephalin levels. you could give opiates to someone whose depression is not a result of low endorphin levels and it would likely also eliminate their depression.

Originally Posted by jacky

and obviously taking opiates will usually help lead to depression or depressing effects or depressing accidental overdoses at least once in ones using career.

but I think the "magic" happens with more than just mu agonists, kappa, and delta agonsts seem to have some real potential.....maybe more than the mu agonists actually. the kappa opioid agonist salvinorin a has some potential as an antidepressant.
and this paper cites buprenorphine as an antideppressant type of compound potentially.

I think taking an opiate/opioid everyday for long periods of time will face most people with some depressing effects, and the whole cycle of addiction may or may not play out, but they really seem to help with anxiety, adhd, depression, and other physical/mental problems.

I agree one thousand times. The science used in this discussion so far is covered in less than one class in one semester of school. All of this stuff is so much more complicated than "i feel happy when i'm high, i feel sad when i'm not, therefore getting high is the best treatment i've experienced to date for my depression"

To anyone who says their anti-depressants didn't work, I always ask a few questions and it becomes obvious that they either didn't give them a real shot to work.

First, did you detox from opiates and remain clean for more than 6 weeks? Or at least get under a doctor's care and maintain a normal, steady, and reasonably low dose of pain meds (no one's antiD is going to work if they're on 120mg of methadone).

Secondly, did you get far enough into clean time to sleep well? Did you break a sweat once? Did you eat any veggies at all?

Lastly did you start making drastic life changes, or did you keep the levels normal?

I've seen people get on anti-D's and be strung out, popping pills, drinking all the time. Then maybe they get clean for a couple of weeks, or even a month, and then get pissed "ach i felt better high" blah blah... Or someone will get clean, but they'll sit on the couch all day eating chips and drinking wine because they're exhausted from kicking.

Or someone will kick and be on anti-D's, but snorting coke and/or getting drunk on the weekends (but its only one day a week, that's not why i'm depressed)...

Its always the same thing... or the last one's my favorite... they've never really tried more than one or two, maybe 10 years ago, or maybe for 2 months, and now they talk like they've tried them all...

I KNOW most addicts have chemical deficiencies, hell we created half of them by fucking with our brain chemistry on a MASSIVE scale for years and years. But I think we have some from birth.

But if opiates were really good anti=Ds why do we ALL end up depressed at the end of a run?

[Canis aureus]

It is logical fallacy to think because something exist at the same time, something is the cause or effect of something else. Ie,.

I'm using opioids I'm happy. Opioids causes the happiness.

I'm unhappy without using opioids, EDS causes unhappiness, I have EDS.

But it is not vice versa either. Let me be slightly hastily and tell you the conclusion. I could go to details if someone wants. could even give examples from my life etc.

The lession is: causal connection is not logical connection. You could not reason rom spatiotemporal relations any logical relations and vice versa (you could not reason from logical connection any causal connections).

So, the reasoning could be true, could be false, it is determined by some other factors. The fact, is opioid using helping or not, or is the cause of unhappiness the EDS or not is dteremined by empirical factors and empirical data.

It is complicated reasoning and complicated process to determine is it EDS which is causing depression, and is it even tghe maajor reason and so on. And as people in every circumstance could have differing amounts of endorphines, it could be a matter of degree how difficult it is (the depletion and the positive effect of using opiates).

But this all is not a reason to belive that there is no EDS or that it won't cause depression or that opioids won't help in depression caused by deficiency.

I could pretty wel have quite low amount of endorhine, or it could be so, that my endorphine system needs harder trickering mechanism. It could be so that I have always tried to get them going, if my behavior would be studied. namely, I have been long-distance runner, I have been (in shorty) insane in taking risks etc. I have been in severe accidents before I have started to use opiates. In fact I have gotten opioids after I have been in accident, and I saw that they give what I'm searcing (much better than running). Abnd when I was running, it wasn't anymore healthy, it was just running as much as is possible, to get something... I saw, when doctor gave me shot, that it caused instant and pleasnt effects. It caused feeling of balance and as you all know, it caused firm and somewhat solid feeling.

In short, I found my medicine...

[Nile_dancer]

I agree, there is the potential for a logical phallacy here.

This does not mean the EDS hypothesis should not be investigated. I think that there is more than enough evidence to warrent more study.

Also, we are not necessarily talking about treating this with addictive opiates/opiods; there may be may other methods to work withing this scenario (Jacky mentioned some).

I am a non-addict. The effect of opiates on me was a big wake-up call. I felt like I had come-home, like I could handle all the small stuff that usually overwhelms me.

I was led to this board because I was researching endorphin deficiency. Over and over I have read stories on this board about people self-medicating with opiates depression, and not only for depression, but just to be functional as well (the house cleaning effect?). Many of them have said that they have tried other anti-depressants, and that they haven't worked. Considering some of the data I've read about a lot of modern anti-depressants I'm not suprised.

Though I'm not a labratory, that can perform double blind tests, I can speculate, and I wouldn't be at all suprised if most depressed people are limping along with low ednorphin/enkephalin levels. According to Dr. Bihari, most sick people are at 20% or normal endorphin levels, and he has had spectacular success in curing/stopping disease by raisng the body's endorphin production. And we know disease causes depression.

Also, I am not postulating a disease model with EDS - I think a disregulation model will probably be more usesful.

Right now, I've been doing some research on the link between low endorphins and migraines... migraines look a lot like withdrawal. Interestingly, migraines are also triggered by female hormones or things that act as female hormones (xenoestrogens). I wonder if the relatively modern pollution with these substances is affecting endorphin production in our bodies... WELL, I AM ALOUD TO SPECULATE AND RESEARCH - ITS FUN.

I apologize if this isn't my most coherant email, I just got up.

[HistoryofMadness]

Well i think its obvious that much more science is necessary to define EDS medically and to establish a viable solution. Our interest and discussion will hopefully lead to a better body of knowledge based on quantifiable and repeatable results.

Until there is more knowledge, though, all we can do is argue over opinions. And there's really no way to say who if anyone here has an educated opinion.

In the meantime, there is NO evidence that opiates treat depression, with the single exception of a study done with BUPE that accidentally noticed a decrease in depression along with pain. In fact the only scientific data out there suggests opiates cause depression to get worse.

If anyone reads carefully they will find that the only science out there dares to make no conclusions about opiates and depression except to say there is possibly a reason to study the issue more.

Anyone who will suggest a solution or cure or treatment for a yet-to-be defined "medical condition" with such little research and data is either ignorant of the scientific process, delusional, or easily fooled.

[Nile_dancer]

HOM

I wouldn't be suprised if there weren't older studies about treating depression with opiates. Many studies that were done in the early 20th century, and before, are hard to access, and yet many of them did follow rigorous scientific protocol, and are valid by any measure. I wonder how to access them?

[earthenone]

But if opiates were really good anti=Ds why do we ALL end up depressed at the end of a run?

But usually at the end of a run, its cuz we are out of money, or its causing problems in our lives right then, hypothetically if opiates were avaliable otc, cheapley and were legal, i wonder how many of us would never be depressed again? Just a thought, like i wonder if the paranoia aspect of pot is cause its illegal here, thus giving us the thoughts like "Does everyone know i am high, or can they smell it on me" if it were legal and everyone smoked it openly all the time, i wonder if it would still cause paranoia.

Speakin from personal experience if i had an unlimited supply of cheap oxy's after the fun wore off i think i would regulate out and not be depressed. To be fair though i have never really given many anti-depressants a real shot, they always have bad side effects, or make me feel wierd, depression runs in my family, it got the best of my brother, but when i am on opiates i am not depressed at all, i function normally and life is generally better, it is when i run out that things get bad again. Just my thoughts besides wouldnt it be cool to get scripted fent patches with dillies for break thru depression...just kiddin.

[HistoryofMadness]

Originally Posted by Nile_dancer

HOM

I wouldn't be suprised if there weren't older studies about treating depression with opiates. Many studies that were done in the early 20th century, and before, are hard to access, and yet many of them did follow rigorous scientific protocol, and are valid by any measure. I wonder how to access them?

good point, probably is some good info. BUT the reasons opiates fell short were the causes of the new type of anti-D's being born (see below)

Originally Posted by earthenone

Speakin from personal experience if i had an unlimited supply of cheap oxy's after the fun wore off i think i would regulate out and not be depressed.

BUT (cont) the real reason people get depressed is because opiates cause a blast or endorphins, which causes more receptors to be created.. problem is there's no reason for most people to have that many receptors just to deal with reality..

so the body thinks its got less endorphins when really it just can't satisfy all the cravings i.e. can't fill up the existing receptors... so the person goes back to the drug, and the cycle starts again.

thus the new anti-Ds (which are clinically proven to work better than opiates for most types of depression) rather than forcing NEW endorphins, simply holds the existing ones longer on the same receptors...

you just can't have it both ways... unless you could somehow create a smartdrug which would control precisely the amount of dopamine to just fill up the receptors... still you have the problem of patients not needing to be randomly happy, but to be able to feel like they are expressing normal emotions as life calls for them...

its pretty much been shown that limitless but controlled opiates doesn't cure depression, or there would be nary a methadone patient that needed anti-D's too.