opiates for depression

[I am err!]

I would have to say that I'm a fan of hydrocodone, and oxymorphone. The thing with them is its not even the high/relaxation that makes me love them..., its that i feel "normal" when i'm on them. I've had alot of medical problems and i'm always in pain. The constant pain kinda changed me into a bitter, painfull person. When I take pain meds I feel like I used to before all the problems and pain. Is there anybody else that feels this way? I feel that if I continue to use pain meds for this reason, I will become a junkie for life and thats totally unacceptable in my eyes. I'm not addicted in anyway (i can only get a couple of vico's or oxy's a month so..) so is there anyone who has expeirenced what i'm feeling and any other drugs (anti-deppressents) that help in this specific way? I hate ssri's (paxil, zoloft, prozac) i've tried wellbutrin breifly but had no effects after 3 weeks. Any help would be great

[Baseball65]

Red alert baby!!

That is exACTly how I got strung...I never really did the opiate thing....I was too fast for that..much rather smok/snort/slam a 1/4 -1/2 0z. of coke with a hanful of mexican quaaludes......
Than,10 years of being a relatively normal guy later(got married,had kids,got a $$$$job) I had a back surgery or two,couple of accidents.
At first I didn't even take 'em,as I was trying to get out of pain,and they weren't working.

I read Dr John Sarno's "Healing Back Pain" and was out of the chronic pain center and playing Baseball again in 3 weeks..a literal frakin' miracle.

Than.,....I still had jars upon jars of hydro left...I started taking it at work,cuz my boss was a n idiot,cuz my wife was a spoiled Bee-otch,cuz I was Depressed about being a High paid painter instead of a low paid musician.....
I thought of it as an anti-depressant...after all? all the assholes at work took their stupid Prozac,and Lexapro,and Whatever...right???

I only took 2-3 lortab a day for years...and than a little perc if anybody had some...and than somebody hooked me up with a morphine dealer....and than my anti-depressant had me shut in my house 20 hours a day....those assholes on prozac are still at work.

So,YES it is like an anti-depressant..and if you can be cool I totally agree with you that it's fun and beats the blues.........I just fucked up.....I tried one more time to keep it cool.......and I was right back at 10-14 a day in 2 months......the worst part is,I couldn't eat enough to get high,and there is nowhere here to score anything better than hydro...........

I've been on Subutex for a couple of weeks now,and on the days it's stable IT actually acts like an anti-depressant.It even ahd a little report about that at opioid.com,the site bi11i has a bunch of links to.

Check it out....
but you are soooooo right...I used to Never be depressed

-Baseball

[bi11i]

have you guys tried taking 5htp tryptophan before? helps to normalize your serotonin levels (what all other anti-depressants make a feeble attempt at).

you can find it pretty much anywhere. any grocery store that carried vitamins should have it....

[Perspect]

Originally Posted by bi11i

have you guys tried taking 5htp tryptophan before? helps to normalize your serotonin levels (what all other anti-depressants make a feeble attempt at).

you can find it pretty much anywhere. any grocery store that carried vitamins should have it....

Yes, I have, for a month I tried D-5-HTP in the range from 50 in the start phase upward to 200 mg a day the last two weeks, unfortunately this doesn't seem to be nearly enough, both in terms of time and dose.
I found that it worked a little better combined with some vitamin and mineral supplements and anti-oxidants such as B-vitamin complex, zink, iron, magnesium, copper and fish oil.
I also tried L-5-HTP 4 x 50 mg a day for two weeks together with some cacao extract, but it didn't do shit except for giving me headaches.

A sign of increased serotonin levels have for me been the nightmares that really scares the shit out of me, really hellish but still believeable stuff going on when you sleep, often I wake up with sweats like those you get from abstinence. This have been the case also when I've taken ssri's, maoi's or melatonin.
But once or twice I woke up after a good nights sleep and felt almost as a child again, unbelievably great and ready for whatever new sensations that were in keep for me that day, so I wouldn't say it's a rip off.

Since it get extremely expensive to import (it's against the medical law to sell nowadays, just the extract from the Griffonia bean can be bought over the counter), I'm gonna try and get Tryptophan prescribed instead, because it goes on the "high cost protection" which means that when you have bought medications over a certain sum, they're almost or absolutely free of charge.
For some reason a few rx's are excluded in this scheme though, like ethylmorphine cough syrup (Cocillana-etyfin).

[scarlett44]

I totally agree with you on the depression thing. I feel completely balanced when taking hydro. I don't feel high, but happy. My doc put me on ritalin for adhd and i hate it. I'de like to tell him the hydro makes me feel normal. I had meningitis a few months back and i can't seem to shake it. I take one hydro in am and one in afternoon and it seems to balance, but i'm running out. What else can i take, herbal remedies? Or how can i get any more hydros. I honestly feel like a better mother/wife when i have taken them. Any good websites?

[astro]

Originally Posted by scarlett44

I totally agree with you on the depression thing. I feel completely balanced when taking hydro. I don't feel high, but happy. My doc put me on ritalin for adhd and i hate it. I'de like to tell him the hydro makes me feel normal. I had meningitis a few months back and i can't seem to shake it. I take one hydro in am and one in afternoon and it seems to balance, but i'm running out. What else can i take, herbal remedies? Or how can i get any more hydros. I honestly feel like a better mother/wife when i have taken them. Any good websites?

Kratom tea

[jacky]

in response to reardone metals post...
thanks for the kind words....
I think that the longer acting the opioid, the better...I would rather use morphine for depression than heroin, and if I could extend the legs on morphine..I would.
I would only consider getting a pea sized lesion on the top of my brain if it doesnt augment the effects of the exogenous opioids I like to take.

that is beautiful, china has a better hold on this endogenous opioid deficiency subject perhaps through use of this test...
years ago they were executing junkies... now?

maybe the opioid/opiate treatment for depression subject should focus a minute on tramadol and effexor models.
BOTH effect the same neurotransmitter systems, opioid/dopaminergic/serotonin...

compare the compounds structures and chemical names...
the compounds are very, very similiar

one can be prescribed for pain relief,
and the other for depression.

I have used both extensively, and I have gone through withdrawls upon the termination of taking both compounds independently of one another.

it seems many antidepressants cause a type of withdrawl symptom, symptoms really can vary, but the symptoms are there.

I really dont need antidepressants unless we start calling opiates/opioid antidepressants, I love the opioid/opiate effect compared to antidepressants.

I can tolerate buprenorphine, but dont like to take it for long periods of time. plus some of my freinds have found the drug to drag them down long term, and the withdrawls when quitting bup were long.

but I would be very happy if any opioid/opiate besided effexor gets approved for use in treating depression.

[Frozen]

I didn't even realize that effexor & tramadol were approximately the same substance, but now that you mention it: I once went on effexor for just 2 or 3 days. I had to stop the medication, because urinating became nearly impossible. That's the exact same effect I got, the time I tried swallowing a handful of tramadols.

How about cymbalta & welbutrin? Are those similar to tramadol as well?

EDIT: After reading the wikipedia entry on effexor, the pieces seem to be falling into place nicely, all consistent with my theories on endogenous opioid deficiency.
________________________
From wiki:

"Venlafaxine is structurally and pharmacologically related to the analgesic tramadol... "


"Venlafaxine is an effective anti-depressant for many persons; however, it seems to be especially effective for those with treatment-resistant depression. Some of these persons have taken two or more antidepressants prior to venlafaxine with no relief. Patients suffering with severe long-term depression typically respond better to venlafaxine than other drugs. However, venlafaxine has been reported to be more difficult to discontinue than other anti-depressants. In addition, a September 2004 Consumer Reports study ranked venlafaxine as the most effective among six commonly prescribed antidepressants."
___________________________

No wonder effexor seems to work better on TRD than all the other approved antidepressants- If it's the only one similar to opioids, it would be the only one to provide an endogenous opioid brain with a substance nearly identical to what is lacking!

[Frozen]

That last sentence should read:

No wonder effexor seems to work better on TRD than all the other approved antidepressants- If it's the only one similar to opioids, it would be the only one to provide an endogenous opioid deficient brain with a substance nearly identical to what is lacking!

[exitwound]

Originally Posted by bi11i

have you guys tried taking 5htp tryptophan before? helps to normalize your serotonin levels (what all other anti-depressants make a feeble attempt at).

you can find it pretty much anywhere. any grocery store that carried vitamins should have it....

I've always had great results with 5-htp.

Similar neurotransmitter precursors include L-Tyrosine ---> Dopamine for example. There's a bunch of them out there. Easy to get, and IMHO better than the reuptake inhibitors 98% of the time.

[COLONELWAYNE]

Hey man,I'm with you on opiates for depression but unfortunatly most doctors aren't.I went through all the ssri 's and finally settled on wellbutrin 150 sr it too semed to take forever but it will get you there a little faster with a 30mg methylphenidate kicker.Since both are stimulants,they seem to work well for me if taken everyday together in the morning.Once aday is enough and anything over that is overkill.Probably will have to take ambien at night for sleep but guess what? No hangovers the next day!I take a 10 and split it.And being the wellbutrin is a trycyclic anti depressent instead of an ssri,it even helps with withdrawel cravings as well as nicotine! Just give it 4 to 6 weeks to reach it's full potential.The only drawback I have encountered is I don't think you 'll ever get off of it once it adjusts to your bodies chemistry.Tried it once and really freaked out a couple of days later.Panic attacks, paranoid dillusions ,halluecinating and borderline schitzophrenic to name a few! And it was like being back at square one.Took 2 to 4 weeks to get stabilized again.I'll never miss another dose.Of course I'm in my 40's so that could have played a major role in my recovery time.Everything slows down at 40.Know what I mean? If not you will! Col.W

[jacky]

well, seeing as how some opiates help to release dopamine, I would thaink that some company may be able to get opiates reinstaed as anti deppressants in the next few years. tramadol apperantly helps to inhibit dopamine catabolism , but the FDA is refusing to let ultram be used for deppression. as well as dopamine tramadol also seems to help the serotonin levels, which has probably been the cause of some negative reactions to tramadol. in the opioidopamine section of this forum I talk about dopamine release attributed to opiate stimulation, and know that the scientific feild may some day put this science to work once again ( opiates used to be prescribed for deppression in the 50's). what is standing in the way of course is opiophobic controls of theraputic protocol, if opiates help release dopamine then some may at some doses help those with ADD and ADHD, some people and institutions that exist do not want to see opiates used in this fashion. the end result is that people figure it out on their own in the end, and still use the drugs for pain and then the unnapproved benefits are enjoyed. hopefully.........................a good place to check out pharmacodynamics of opiates is opioids.com and the hedonist imperative.

[peacefulwarrior]

I appologize for the LONG rant...its late...i hope it helps:

5htp (5-hydroxytryptophan) is structurally very similar to serotonin which is 5-ht. But you can be very depressed because of low serotonin levels (maybe not enough vesicles, or enough receptors etc) and it wont matter how much 5-htp you take because thats not where the problem is. Tryptophan is one of the "building blocks" that the body starts with and later makes 5htp and eventually 5ht so its even less likely that tryp. will help because its just a more primitive stage of 5htp. (it used to be in common drug stores but a japanese company that made most of the tryptophan made an error in the manufacture which gave many people instant parkinson's...later it was found that tryptophan is safe but because of the incident, its still illegal--or at the least prescription -not sure). Unless you have low levels of serotonin because you're not getting enough of the precursers...these probably won't help you. I used Lexapro for 2 years and then went off...I was dizzy and sick as hell for about 5 days when i stopped but it actually helped to raise my levels and i no longer suffer from depression. The thing is, no one really know what the fuck these things do... no one has any clue how serotonin or other neurotransmitters cause mood (the whole mind-body problem)
Keep in mind that its VERY specific too...the type of serotonin receptor that your antidepressants block (reuptake) is much different than the type of serotonin receptor that powerful entheogens like LSD work at...they both increase serotonin but at different receptor types. I bring it up because depression might come from the type 2A receptor in some and come from another receptor in another...so if antidepressants dont work at first you might want to keep trying different types. Wellbutrin made me more depressed but Lexapro TEMPORARILY worked.
Opiates dramatically hijack certain dopeminergic systems (particularly the medial forbrain bundle) and when stimulated in mice, theyll give up food, water and sex for their fix. All addictive drugs actually work at this dopamine tract-cocaine and amphetamines work at it more directly which makes their abuse potential top of the line. I do agree jacky that opiates might have anti-depressant value but are they really a solution? Any drug that you put in the brain will change the connectivity and the more you take it the more compensatory regulation will make you need to take more...Even current ssri's generally need to be increased over time. So the question remains, do we take drugs for depression for years until we either die from possible side-effects or until our brain has downregulated most of its receptors to the point of the drug being ineffective yet necessary to avoid withdrawals.
Ultimately, the changes that need to be made need to come from within. Easier said than done but the only answer I've been able to find.
The dopemenergic systems that opiates hijack are now called the reward/reinforcement circuits because they are used to give us rewards, enforce behavior that is beneficial to us, and bring us general joy and enthusiasm...If we become addicted and exhaust these systems, then it makes sence that normal things in life wont make you happy and general enthusiasm will be low. If youre not addicted and opiates are the only thing that brings you back to normal I would personally hypothesize that dopamine levels might be low in the brain (but again its way complex and specific and all the Neurotransmitters are intimately related). Wellbutrin increases dopamine levels (as well as the other major 2 Neurotransmitters) but might not be the best long term solution for you (especially if you only need an increase in one of those NTs and not the other...the noreprinephine increase was what fuct me up and I felt cracked out). Remember that your brain is never 'permanent' and if levels are low now that doesnt mean that can't change. I would suggest forcing yourself to do the things that excite you again...Go out and try the experiences that used to make you feel the way that you feel now with hydro. You can coax your brain into returning to its 'natural' state.

A recent study showed that serotonin levels actually increase when the subject holds a pencil in their mouth...I need to examine this one further but my colleagues tell me that the pencil makes them use their "smile" muscles and tricks the brian into thinking it should be happy. neuroscience seems to be heading in a direction where our actions and thought DO change our brains so its in our power to 'encourage' emotions. The brain is a river, not a rock. 70% of our connectivity changes each day!

I hope that maybe this helps some people although I realize that its longwinded and i may be a little vague. Its been 5 days since Ive had any opiates - the 5 hardest days of my life - but these are some of the thoughts and things that have kept me strong. We all have tremendous potential...good luck!

[peacefulwarrior]

one more thing... Psychedelics have tremendous potential because they can rewire the brain in a way that supports a non-addictive lifestyle...Cary Grant took LSD over 100 times in psychotherapy sessions because this potential to rewire the brain out of depression, addictions etc was realized before the FDA made it illegal....Even the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous used LSD to help with addictions although not many AA people want you to know that. If you can't find the time and the safe setting for a long heavy extensive LSD trip (and remember that you can rewire your brain in a negative way too), there is some evidence that salvinorin A (salvia divinorum) can help with opiate addictions and it lasts a very short time. Of course none of this is accepted medicinally but there is a very large "psychedelic underground" with psychologists experimenting with entheogens in safe clinical settings. I won't 'suggest' anything but its certainly something imporant to consider (especially ibogaine)

[SuperJunky]

I found that tacking a 100 mg time release Tramadol twice a day makes an excelent antidepresant and can seriously help with a taper detox. After I was tacking them for about 5 weeks something started to feel not quite right. I don't know how to describe it but I decided to stop so broke the pills in half and took 50 mg twice a day for two days then 50 mg for two days then I stopped. I don't know if the taper was necesarry but tramadol takes many hours to affect me so if I found my self feeling w/drawal symptoms I'de have to wait 4-6 hours for the stuff to kick in.