Is there a substitute 4 AA...

[Bad Monkey]

I was just wondering/hoping wether there is a substitute 4 AA(actic anhydride).I did have a miniscule amount (about 4 or 5 CC's)which I failed to store propley.Ihade it in a 10 ml siringe,but it ate through black stopper leaving me with a empty seringe(spewen harecore) I've heard that it's possible to recreate a similar acid out easier to come by ingrediants, that will produce similar results.Is this true. BM

[superman]

check out rhodium's archive, www.erowid.org has a copy of it up.

as for a similar acid that will acetylate, nope. there is acetyl chloride, which can be used to make AA, this is probably what you're thinking of.

[bogumil]

Yeah! But does one have to make AA first? I thought there is a way to just use the Acetyl Chloride ...

[asaqwert]

i ahve looked into AA and everything to do with it

as far as i can tell, acetic acid does NOT create anything stronger than morphine, when mixed with it. it does NOT acetylate morphine in any way, it does not create monoacetyl morphine, or any other form of singly acetylated morphine or anything of the sort. the MOST it would POSSIBLY create from it, if the acetate is more strongly attracted to the morphine than the sulphate molecule, or the hcl molecule, then you MAY create morphine acetate, which i think is highly unlikely

what you are more likely to create is morphine sulphate/hcl and acetic acid in a single shot, with nothing extra, and no extra strength or effects

this has been tested a few times by myself, and no extra effects where noticed after cooking my morphine with acetic acid, nothing at all

[insanesteveo]

i swear i read somewhere that you can make acetic anhydride from vinegar. i believe you need to heat the acetic acid to over 800 degrees. im not quite sure on specifics.

someone please pm and tell me im either dumb or may be right.
thanks
-steve

[asaqwert]

Originally Posted by insanesteveo

i swear i read somewhere that you can make acetic anhydride from vinegar. i believe you need to heat the acetic acid to over 800 degrees. im not quite sure on specifics.

someone please pm and tell me im either dumb or may be right.
thanks
-steve

yes, you can

you must head the acetic acid to over 800 degrees, this gets all the water out and dehydrates the acetic acid into acetic anhydride

now good luck doing this without somehow starting your acetic anhydride product on fire, or without somehow losing it all to evaporation

good luck

[insanesteveo]

Originally Posted by asaqwert

now good luck doing this without somehow starting your acetic anhydride product on fire, or without somehow losing it all to evaporation

good luck

bunsen burner, stand, erlenmeyer flask, stopper.
i reckon boiling off the water on a stove on med would do(electric of course), then transfer the flask to the stand and heat to over 800, of course with the rubber stopper on top.

any idea why that wouldnt work? i might take some vinegar from work and try doing a small amount.

another question, as i have never seen or read much about AA, what will it look like? thick liquuid? thin? clear? brown? purple?

[kramorph]

The only sub I know of is acetyl chloride or bromide etc.AA can be made from "vinegar", but it must be glacial acetic acid, ie pure dry acetic acid, and you would need high pressure and temp. equipment if you were to try this, as the reactants would obviosly be gases.AA is a clear,water like liquid that absorbs water from the atmosphere.It has a burning vinegar like smell.The trouble with attemting to make it is tjhe reactants and products smell the same, and look similar, although I think glacial acetic acid is more viscous than AA. Im also quite sure that glacial acetic acid can be used to acetylate morphine, but I vaguely remember that a catalyst is needed and some fairly nasty conditions,ie nasty enough to destroy alot of the morphine! So yeah, dont bother even trying to do it with acetic acid.

[asaqwert]

Originally Posted by insanesteveo

bunsen burner, stand, erlenmeyer flask, stopper.
i reckon boiling off the water on a stove on med would do(electric of course), then transfer the flask to the stand and heat to over 800, of course with the rubber stopper on top.

any idea why that wouldnt work? i might take some vinegar from work and try doing a small amount.

another question, as i have never seen or read much about AA, what will it look like? thick liquuid? thin? clear? brown? purple?

no, this woudl not work

firstly, you will not be able to evenly heat the acetic acid to over 800 degrees using a glass/pyrex flask and a RUBBER stopper....do you not think the rubber stopper will have some problems at 800 degrees (and with acetic anhydride....)

you reckon boiling off water on a stove on medium would do? you plan on just somehow getting this "medium-setting" on your (electric nonetheless) range to get to 800 degrees? you realize that if it is stoppered then the remainder of the water which must seperate from teh acetic acid to form acetic anhydride must go somewhere, otherwise it will go back into the solution and form acetic acid all over again

basically, you can't make acetic anhydride yourself, at least not from acetic acid. it can be made, but you need other chemicals which are hard(er) to get

basically, you should pretty much succumb to the fact that without acetic anhydride, you are not making heroin. with pure glacial acetic acid, you MAY (and i STRONGLY disagree with this theory, i'm only saying may because in theory it COULD be possible for SOME to acetylate, but definetly not all, and definetly not twice) end up acetylating SOME of the morphine

about the harsh conditions, no, you won't be able to use DMAP and GAA to make 6-MAM 3-MAM or any other mam or diamorph...the DMAP is a catalyst for a reaction with acetic anhydride and must be over some substrate (i forget which, palladium maybe?). it is highly unlikely that it will actually work and what you will probably end up with is simply morphine, of which a large part was destroyed by you trying to boil it at over 200 degrees, and glacial acetic acid, all in one shot

not trying to rain on your parade fellas, but acetic acid is just not strong enough an acetylating agent to really do the job here, and the DMAP catalyst won't help either (can you even GET DMAP anyways? i bet its just as/more conrolled as AA....maybe not, i dont really know at all). you really need to find some college chem lab which you can "obtain" a small amount of AA from and then go ahead with things

[psychotiKK]

Just order some acetic anhydride on the internet... it might be monitored by the DEA if you order a certain amount, but I've seen websites offering to sell it.

[asaqwert]

Originally Posted by psychotiKK

Just order some acetic anhydride on the internet... it might be monitored by the DEA if you order a certain amount, but I've seen websites offering to sell it.

]there's lots of websites SAYING they'll sell it, how many have you found who look and are reliable, trustworthy, and legal? and who aren't gonna get you busted by putting "from joes backjard chemicals and shit store" on the front of the box....

i dunno, i searched HIGH AND LOW for it, and ended up finding some, but not in large quantity at all, and not for too cheap (not NEARLY as cheap as it should be for just aa, although i did get a few other things too....regardless it was way more than the 15 dollars for a liter that some websites list it for (of course you can't buy it unless you have a legit reason.....)

anyways, if you have a site that either won't ask any questions, or won't ask enough to make it worthless, PM me or at least post that you do (although without any proof, its hard to believe, as i've searched high and low....)

regardless, about the acetic acid, i don't think that you can even fully acetylate morphine, not in both positions. you could likely make some 3-MAM (and MAYBE 6-MAM but i don't see how considering the reactivity of the two alcohol groups and that the 6 position is much less reactive....) but i don't think that a catalyst such as DMAP will help out much. i am not saying that NONE will be made, i'm SURE some will. it just won't be enough to make it worth your while. i mean, sure if you take a gram of morphine, and react it with acetic acid, i bet u'll get maybe...say between 5 and 50mg of 3-MAM and MAYBE a molecule of diamorphine (although i still maintain that this won't happen.....its just not strong enough an acetylating agent, and screw you to stvip, i'm not acting like a smartass im just stating MY own fucking opinoin)

[chemboy7]

Originally Posted by psychotiKK

Just order some acetic anhydride on the internet... it might be monitored by the DEA if you order a certain amount, but I've seen websites offering to sell it.

I would be very leary about ordering AA through scientific supply houses, these are notorious for being filled with DEA snitches (plus they are required to keep something like a 2 year list of anyone who orders watched chemicals for any reason, legitamate or not). The last I knew, AA was a list II chemical in quantities >250 gallons but this could very well be different now as I am thinking back to like '96 or '97... either way, good luck explaining what you are going to be using it for when the DEA comes knocking on your door.

[superman]

"DMAP is a catalyst for a reaction with acetic anhydride and must be over some substrate (i forget which, palladium maybe?)"
dmap simply allows what would otherwise be successfull reaction to be accelerated to take only a few minutes and require no heat. no catalytic metals are used.

just a suggstion for the mods or owner, perhaps there should be a link at the bottom of every page to the opiates section of rhodiums archive?? that would greatly advance the understanding of many of the members here who are too lazy to spend a couple hours skimming over what's probably the most complete archive of clandestine opiate chemistry around. and hell it would probaby help spark some interest and motivation for others to experiment and possibly even spark some local commercial smack production. i for one would like to see my neighbours cooking dope in thier backyards and sellign it at reasonable prices to me and my friends

[chemboy7]

Rhodium is an awsome site for clandestine chemistry, opaite or otherwise.

[insanesteveo]

Originally Posted by chemboy7

Rhodium is an awsome site for clandestine chemistry, opaite or otherwise.

what is the url? ive never heard of this place before.