Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 84

Thread: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

  1. #1
    zombiewoof23
    Guest

    Default Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    I have studied the topic of Endorphin Deficiency quite a bit recenlty. I believe this goes hand in hand with Jacky's studies as well as some of the threads that have been posted in the past regarding Opiates for depression. I would like to create discusion here about this topic and hear different people's opinions and views.

    Depression is a serious problem that affects roughly 9.5% of the population or 20.9 million American Adults in any given year. I don't believe there is enough being done to try to find relief for the people who live with this illness. I believe that depression, anxiety disorders, and/or personality disorders can be caused by many factors and also an imbalance or deficiency of different chemicals in the brain.

    For many who seek help from the medical profession the doctors readily prescribe Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors to treat these disorders. I believe it is very likely that serotonin is not the only chemical that causes these illnesses and/or disorders. I don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach to treating such a complex illness.

    For me personally I have experienced depression off and on for the past 10 years due to outside events such as multiple deaths of peers and loved ones and also what I believe to be a chemical imbalance. After 3 close friends of mine committed suicide in 1994 within a couple months of eachother I found myself with depression and ended up in a mental ward for a few weeks. Lack of maturity, guilt, not understanding the events, and no support from family played their role in a mental break down. I was diagnosed with bipolar and quickly put on lithium and paxil. These drugs did absolutely nothing to ease the depression.

    Recently I discovered Adderall, which according to wikipedia is believed to work by blocking the reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine into the presynaptic neuron and increasing their release from the presynamptic neuron into the extraneuronal space. Hmmmm? Maybe, for me, it wasn't a serotonin problem afterall.

    I have heard on multiple occasions from many opiate users, that opiates are the only things that make them feel "normal." Is it likely that an endorphin deficiency or excess could be the culprit? I believe its very possible.

    "In 1982, Risch and Brambilla et al, two different research groups, found elevated plasma levels of beta-endorphin in depressed patients, compare to normal controls (Willner 1985). After injections of beta-endorphin, they observed a general antidepressant effect (Tejedor-Real 1995). Kline furthered research by continuing beta-endorphin injection studies. Although subject to uncontrolled variables, he gave depressed people beta-endorphin and reported some temporary improvements while others even reported a state of mania with the injections (Davis 1984). In another double blind placebo controlled crossover study, 9 depressed patients showed significant improvement approximately 2 to 4 hours after beta-endorphin administration compared to the placebo. The results of this experiment suggested that depressed patients have a deficit in endorphin activity due to the improved moods with subsequent beta-endorphin injections (Li 1981)." http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_0...ipts/_467.html

    While studying the endorphin deficiency hypothesis in regards to depression I found this statement from the link above to be intersting: "From past results, the Endorphin-Deficiency Hypothesis for depression came about, giving a possible understanding of depression and its symptoms in terms of a deficit endorphins in the brain. But opposing evidence contradicts this hypothesis stating that perhaps it is not a lack of endorphins, but rather an excess of endorphins, or even that endorphins are not a factor in the depression question at all."

    Since there are over 20 different types of endorphins in the body and a lack of research, one theory may be that the beta-endorphin that was used in the study may not have been the endorphin that was deficient, or that once again there is not a single cure all for something as complex as depression. The mania experienced in the subjects who showed a deficit could very well be that their body's have simply adapted to the lack of beta-endorphin and the reintroduction was a shock to their system. It would be interesting to see if that the beta-endorphin was reintroduced on a controlled level over time if their body's would readjust to the chemical and if they would show stabilization and improvement. Many of the drugs used for the illness and other disorders take time for the body to adjust to them. Why couldn't that be the case for something as powerful as beta-endorphin? I would like to see additional controlled studies over a period of time performed.

    I also found the final two paragraphs from this link interesting concerning tricyclic antidepressants and naloxone:

    "On the other hand, studies done with antidepressant drugs have come to support the endorphin link to depression. It has been found that tricyclic antidepressants interacts with the opioid system, accounting for the their antidepressant effects. In Tejedor-Real's study, naloxone reversed the positive effect of imipramine, a tricyclic antidepressant, which provides strong support for the opioid mediation of this and other antidepressant effects. Further evidence is provided in similar behavioral models of depression such as a forced swimming test that involves a stress and despair dimension where naloxone has also been found to antagonize the effects of tricyclic antidepressants (Tejedor-Real 1995).

    Endorphin research has led to new, though conflicting findings in the field of mental illness. Throughout the years, evidence has existed that links an excess, deficiency, and even static levels of endorphin activity to depression. Further investigations may yield a new treatment for depression and should improve our understanding of the role of endorphins in normal and abnormal physiology (Li 1981). It has even been said that some patients in the future could be treated with their own endorphins, extracted under local anesthetic from their cerebrospinal fluid during a routine checkup visit and held in reserve for moments of mental crisis (Davis 1984). Perhaps research such as that done by Tejedor-Real will further provide evidence that will support the link between brain endorphin levels and depression and continue to build a case that will, in future years, give a basis for better, more effective biochemical treatment to a psychological disease."

    I'll stop here for the sake of keeping this post from getting any longer, because I would like to see some discussion and other's opinions about this. I may add to this thread with other findings if anybody shows any interest is discussing this.

  2. #2
    Opiophorum Member stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Try enkephalins in lieu of endorphins.

  3. #3
    Opiophorum Member stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    For example:

    European Journal of Neuroscience
    Volume 21 Issue 5 Page 1379 - March 2005
    Endogenous enkephalins, not endorphins, modulate basal hedonic state in mice

  4. #4
    zombiewoof23
    Guest

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by stvip View Post
    For example:

    European Journal of Neuroscience
    Volume 21 Issue 5 Page 1379 - March 2005
    Endogenous enkephalins, not endorphins, modulate basal hedonic state in mice
    Awesome! I'm very interested in this particular subject. The info is much appreciated.

  5. #5
    Never Looked Back Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll is a glorious beacon of light Ragdoll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    2,680

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    This is such valuable information, Zombie. I've had severe depression since I can recall memory.

    Of particular interest to me is this paragraph:

    The mania experienced in the subjects who showed a deficit could very well be that their body's have simply adapted to the lack of beta-endorphin and the reintroduction was a shock to their system. It would be interesting to see if that the beta-endorphin was reintroduced on a controlled level over time if their body's would readjust to the chemical and if they would show stabilization and improvement. Many of the drugs used for the illness and other disorders take time for the body to adjust to them. Why couldn't that be the case for something as powerful as beta-endorphin?


    You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy.
    -Charlie Manson



  6. #6
    Never Looked Back hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1 has conned a lot of people to get this much rep hero 1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    in your face
    Posts
    1,159

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    i allways belived junkies (life long ones not just doing it to say they have a habit) suffer from some sort of chem imblance that sris wont fix. my two ccents
    Meme vieille chanson

  7. #7
    Never Looked Back slugbone will become famous soon enough slugbone will become famous soon enough slugbone will become famous soon enough slugbone will become famous soon enough slugbone will become famous soon enough slugbone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shangri-La
    Posts
    1,679

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    ive tried ssri's like trazodone and not much helped, then opiates came along and bam no real depression probs like before, even valum and such didn't help much

  8. #8
    Information Warrior HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    in your FACE
    Posts
    3,029

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    i agree that lots of people have a lack or endorphins that leads to depression. the problem is this subject is much more complicated than just being able to sit around and casually discuss as laypeople.

    for example, why doesn't cheese or chocolate cure depression? why doesn't skydiving?

    better yet, why have i been depressed (severely) when opiated? i know when i'm not on opiates and i take them, i feel much better.

    but isn't that what they're for?

    the problem is that opiates can cause as much problem as they solve, and i'm not talking about n/a bullshit either.

    i'm talking about the fact that your brain creates a multitude of additional receptors, which are still there when you quit. so the thing you think is helping you is really making things worse.

    besides there are precursors to opiates and endorphines and dopamine etc etc and there are multiple types cause by many different things. furthermore the systems they work in are more complicated than linear discussion can relate.

    the problem is that depression is serious business and so is suicide and the last thing people who are noncompliant need is another reason to rebel against the system because the system won't prescribe them with what they think they need...

    you know? thoughts?
    fuck happy.

  9. #9
    OpioNoMo Frozen is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    IL.
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    "besides there are precursors to opiates and endorphines and dopamine etc etc and there are multiple types cause by many different things."
    __________

    You couldn't name a single endorphin precursor that can be purchased and taken as a supplement, but one does in fact exist. It's called D-Phenylalanine (DLPA, NOT L-Phenylalanine which doesn't help endorphin levels). DLPA destroys the enzyme that causes endorphins to self-destruct, and so extends their life.

    Here's a new article which should be of great interest to anyone who identifies themselves as endorphin deficient:

    http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2007/CARA0107.htm

    My site, no less relevant: www.ProhibitionKills.com

    That first link contains the first article I've seen that agrees with a theory I've held for years, that different individuals gravitate to different types of drugs according to their personal chemical deficiencies.

    ______________
    An excerpt:

    Since Austrian Otto Loewi discovered the first neurotransmitter, now called acetylcholine, in 1921, over 300 others have been discovered. Luckily for those of us in the addiction field, we're mostly concerned with just four. Let's start with the catecholamines: dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. The catecholamines are what wake you up, focus your brain, and put color into your day. Without enough catecholamines, life is grey, boring, and disorganized. Anyone with diagnosed with ADD/ADHD needs more catecholamines. You only have to notice how many coffee shops are on your city's streets to realize we are a catecholamine-deficient people. You may also notice that methamphetamine abuse is reaching epic proportions. Some 500 counties questioned in 2005 named methamphetamine abuse as their largest drug problem and methamphetamine, the one drug causing the most incarcerations (Angelo D. Kyle, NA Co-President and Bill Hansell, NACo President-Elect. The Meth Epidemic in America, Two Surveys of US Counties. July 5, 2005).

    The second important amino acid for addiction treatment is tryptophan, a metabolic precursor for the neurotransmitter serotonin. In the 1980s, tryptophan was inexpensive and easily available in every health food store. Psychiatrists used tryptophan to increase levels of serotonin in cases of insomnia and depression. The amino acid's reputation was sullied in 1989 when a single polluted batch of tryptophan from Showa Denka, one of several Japanese suppliers, caused eosinophilia myalgia syndrome which killed eleven Americans and sickened many more. Showa Denka stopped producing tryptophan. Other suppliers continued to ship safe tryptophan to American hospitals, American baby food manufacturers, and foreign buyers, but the supply of tryptophan on health food shelves quickly dried up. Recently tryptophan has appeared again for over-the-counter purchase.

    Meanwhile, another metabolic precursor of serotonin was discovered in an African bean called Griffonia simplicifolia. This precursor, 5-hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTP, is an intermediary between tryptophan and serotonin and can cross the blood-brain barrier to increase levels of serotonin in the central nervous system. According to a handy amino acid therapy chart designed by Julia Ross and described in her book The Mood Cure (see Resources), symptoms of serotonin deficiency include anxiety, irritability, premenstrual syndrome, panic attacks, suicidal thoughts, a dislike of hot weather, difficulty getting to sleep and difficulty staying asleep, low self-esteem, obsessive-compulsive thoughts and behaviors, and the kind of depression that perceives all life's woes as one's own fault.

    The third important amino acid for addiction treatment is phenylalanine. Phenylalanine is used to maintain levels of endorphins, those powerful pain relievers and mood elevators that create an effect characterized as the "runner's high." The most common symptoms of endorphin deficiency are hyper-sensitivity, low threshold for pain, a tendency to become easily hooked into sentimental TV commercials, a tendency to cry easily, chronic pain, and depression. Unlike tyrosine and 5HTP, phenylalanine doesn't make more of a neurotransmitter. It destroys the enzyme that causes endorphins to self-destruct and so extends their life. To build more endorphins, a person must consume adequate protein in meals.

    As with all amino acids, phenylalanine is a three-dimensional molecule and has a natural twist to it. With amino acids, L- indicates a left twist (the Latin is laevus), and D- indicates right (the Latin is dexter). It's the D- form that maintains endorphins, but for manufacturers, it's cheaper to mix the two. Some of the L- form converts to L-tyrosine. The D-form is patented and is quite useful for relieving pain while avoiding the stimulation of the L-form.

    The fourth amino acid useful for addiction treatment is gamma aminobutyric acid (GABA), which is also the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the body. Anxiety and muscle tension are signs of deficient GABA, as are cravings for tranquilizing drugs, marijuana, and alcohol.

  10. #10
    OpioNoMo Frozen is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    IL.
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    ...which brings me to something else I've been meaning to discuss here for a while, identifying the hallmark traits of Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome. Since the 'real' scientists aren't doing much to advance knowledge of this syndrome, I'd like to ask for the help of anyone here who identifies themselves as endogenous opioid deficient (and I mean those of you who have been 'opiate deficient' since birth, NOT as the result of an addiction.), letting me know which of the following traits apply to you, and which ones do not.

    The two traits that seem to nearly always appear in individuals with endorphin deficiency depression, are:

    A) Weak immune system. You don't know of anyone who catches nasty colds as often as you do. Perhaps you were even diagnosed with an autoimmune condition or two.

    B) You've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high'.

    Here are some other traits which I've also encountered repeatedly. Please tell me if these apply to you or not:

    C) Hypersensitivity/Tactile defensiveness. This could be hypersensitivity to touch, light, temperature, etc. You're easily made uncomfortable by slight disturbances in your surroundings.

    D) You're introverted, and annoyed by crowds. This may have something to do with trait C, above.

    E) Pollen allergy/Hay fever- This often comes with a chronic runny nose, and possibly other allergies as well.

    F) You're easy to bring to tears, or at least you were that way through your teenage years.


    Some other, less likely traits. These may or may not apply to you, but please let me know either way!

    G) You have a 'Cluster B' personality disorder. These are Narcissistic personality disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, Borderline personality disorder, and Antisocial personality disorder.

    H) Your motor coordination skills developed slowly as a child. Your training wheels stayed on your bike for longer than normal. You were also lousy at sports.

    Notice I didn't include insomnia, despite the fact that most of us have it. Reason being, 89% of people who have attempted suicide report suffering sleep disorders, hence this is something that goes with depression of all kinds, and not just the endorphin deficiency variety.

    I'm just trying to put this puzzle together as best I can, so any input would be greatly appreciated!

  11. #11
    Never Looked Back Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy has much to be proud of Seedy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    the arse end of the world
    Posts
    3,263

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    ^^
    Wow, interesting. I answered yes to questions C, D, E & F. Only really noticed the "runner's high" since I got into opiates.



  12. #12
    zombiewoof23
    Guest

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by HistoryofMadness View Post
    i agree that lots of people have a lack or endorphins that leads to depression. the problem is this subject is much more complicated than just being able to sit around and casually discuss as laypeople.

    the problem is that opiates can cause as much problem as they solve, and i'm not talking about n/a bullshit either.

    i'm talking about the fact that your brain creates a multitude of additional receptors, which are still there when you quit. so the thing you think is helping you is really making things worse.

    besides there are precursors to opiates and endorphines and dopamine etc etc and there are multiple types cause by many different things. furthermore the systems they work in are more complicated than linear discussion can relate.

    the problem is that depression is serious business and so is suicide and the last thing people who are noncompliant need is another reason to rebel against the system because the system won't prescribe them with what they think they need...

    I agree that depression is a very complex illness that can be cause by a multitude of things. Sometimes it can be simply a traumatic experience and many times a biological issue, whether self induced or simply born with it.

    The purpose of my thread was to create discussion based on scientific data and/or personal experience. I believe that many of us have a predisposition to chemical addiction contrary to popular belief that we end up addicts because we were only looking to party and took the first step by picking up whatever DOC that may apply.

    I am not suggesting that self medicating yourself with these substances is the answer. With Heroin, for example, I've heard a few users state that it is the only thing that makes them feel "normal." The short term solution may be fine, but like you said HOM, what about the additional problems that could be created associated with getting dependent on heroin. I'm still talking about somebody that is depressed or using H to self medicate, not a recreational user. I believe that some of these types of users are not afraid of the long term consequences, or are not afraid of self harm and are only looking for a short term solution to treat their depression. These are all opinions and open for discussion.

    I found this interesting. One biological model for an explanation of self-mutilation:

    Biological Model 2:
    In addition to dopamine, endogenous opioids have also been linked to self-mutilation. The biological reinforcement theory suggests that the pain from self-mutilation may cause the production of endorphins (endogenous opioids) that reduce dysphoria. A cycle is formed in which the habitual self-mutilator will hurt themselves in order to feel better.

    Could it be argued that heroin addiction could be a form of self-mutilation?


    Excellent info RM. This is the type of data I'm interested in. I have spent some time on the prohibitionkills website and I believe there is some good info on there. I am trying to find as many unbiased sources as I can involving actual scientific studies.

    Gotta get back to work for now.

  13. #13
    Never Looked Back Curio is fresh on the scene. Curio is fresh on the scene. Curio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    In a VAN....down by the RIVER!!
    Posts
    1,055

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    hadn't recently heard of anyone taking trazodone ^^
    until SB mentioned it,
    maybe this is why I don't recall ANY men
    on the med, and certainly don't remember seeing this as a side effect:


    Trazodone has been associated with the occurrence of priapism. In approximately 1/3 of the cases reported, surgical intervention was required and, in a portion of these cases, permanent impairment of erectile function or impotence resulted. Male patients with prolonged or inappropriate erections should immediately discontinue the drug and consult their physician. If the condition persists for more than 24 hours, it would be advisable for the treating physician to consult a urologist or appropriate specialist in order to decide on a management approach.

    I would say NO MAN should ever take it....plenty of other meds out there, why risk it?
    Curio/comaTOES

    I wasn't sleeping ! I was IN A COMA!

  14. #14
    LIFETIME MEMBER Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet is cooler than ice Duckfeet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Downtown L.A.
    Posts
    12,567

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by comaTOES View Post
    hadn't recently heard of anyone taking trazodone ^^
    until SB mentioned it,
    maybe this is why I don't recall ANY men
    on the med, and certainly don't remember seeing this as a side effect:


    Trazodone has been associated with the occurrence of priapism. In approximately 1/3 of the cases reported, surgical intervention was required and, in a portion of these cases, permanent impairment of erectile function or impotence resulted. Male patients with prolonged or inappropriate erections should immediately discontinue the drug and consult their physician. If the condition persists for more than 24 hours, it would be advisable for the treating physician to consult a urologist or appropriate specialist in order to decide on a management approach.

    I would say NO MAN should ever take it....plenty of other meds out there, why risk it?
    Trazadone is real commonly prescribed drug in V.A. psyche wards, and for outpaitient functioning nuts like me. It's listed as anti-depressant, but overworked nurses like it because it puts people to sleep, so everybody got their trazes right before bedtime when ur in psyche wards. V.A is allowed to negotiate w/drug companies for drugs in bulk, so we tend to all get the same meds. In old days it was trazadone and ellavil, sometimes Navane, and for real hardcases, thorazine and haldol. then they went to Prozac, also bought in bulk, then last time I was nutted up, they were trying zoloft for everything, particularly PTSD. I've got bottles of the shit (trazadone), boring med, really, not that effective as sleeping pill, and crappy as anti-depressant...

    We used to joke about the "trazadone hardons"--nobody I know ever got one, never even heard any *credible* stories of any vets getting one, but we were always warned...they used to give trazadone out like candy in V.A. Decent opiates---which is what most of us wanted--that's another story. They actually worked. Back first time I really did nut up, after bad time one rainy week in Vietnam, and had combat neurosis, couldn't sleep, vivid hallucinations, all that, they give me bottle of valiums, I remember saying once, fuck, just one good five dollar vial of Saigon Skag beat all the psychiatric meds in the world...

  15. #15
    Never Looked Back Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl is a name known to all Badly Drawn Girl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Methadonia, WA
    Posts
    1,338

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Rearden Metal View Post
    Please tell me if these apply to you or not:
    I don't have a weak immune system but I do suffer from fibromyalgia which I think was caused by my immune system going haywire.

    Definitely no runner's high. I don't think I've ever experienced true joy in my life either. It's sort of a foreign emotion to me.

    Yes, hypersensitive, sensory intergration disorder type stuff and both of my sons have SID.

    Completely introverted. I hate people in general. I actually don't mind crowds because I can be anonymous in them.

    Yes to hay fever.

    Not much of a crier unless I'm angry.

    I probably do have an anti-social personality disorder.

    Poor balance but good coordination, if that makes sense. I was an athlete growing and pretty damn good at what I did too.
    BDG

    “We gain the strength of the temptation we resist.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson



  16. #16
    Junky tonyk has a spectacular aura about tonyk has a spectacular aura about tonyk has a spectacular aura about tonyk has a spectacular aura about tonyk has a spectacular aura about tonyk has a spectacular aura about
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Ohio, NE
    Posts
    356

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    What about bipolar tendencies?? I've noticed these with myself more frequently. Not the extreme type, but the secondary version. Any ideas?

  17. #17
    zombiewoof23
    Guest

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyk View Post
    What about bipolar tendencies?? I've noticed these with myself more frequently. Not the extreme type, but the secondary version. Any ideas?
    Bipolar is even more of a complex illness than depression alone. I read somewhere that the secondary type of bipolar can be caused by medications, but that was very vague and that particular article didn't have any scientific research to back that statement, although I'm not arguing it, I just went on to something else.

    I was personally diagnosed with bipolar right around 1993-4. The treatment method for me were medications. They prescribed me Lithium and Paxil at the same time. Lithium is supposed to be a mood stabilizer and works according to wikipedia by: "Upon ingestion Lithium becomes widely distributed in the central nervous system and interacts with a number of neurotransmitters and receptors, decreasing noradrenaline release and increasing serotonin synthesis."

    Mechanism of Action

    The precise mechanism of action of Li+ as a mood-stabilizing agent is currently unknown. It is possible that Li+ produces its effects by interacting with the transport of monovalent or divalent cations in neurons. However, because it is a poor substrate at the sodium pump, it cannot maintain a membrane potential and only sustains a small gradient across biological membranes. Yet Li+ is similar enough to Na+ in that under experimental conditions, Li+ can replace Na+ for production of a single action potential in neurons.
    Recent research suggests three different mechanisms which may act together to deliver the mood-stabilizing effect of this ion (Jope RS, Mol Psychiatry 1999 Mar; 4(2):117-28). An increasing number of scientists have come to the conclusion that the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate is the key factor in understanding how lithium works. Other mood stabilizers such as valproate and lamotrigine exert influence over glutamate, suggesting a possible biological explanation for mania. The other mechanisms by which lithium might help to regulate mood include the alteration of gene expression [1] and the non-competitive inhibition of an enzyme called inositol monophosphatase.
    Unlike other psychoactive drugs, Li+ produces no obvious psychotropic effects, (such as euphoria) in normal individuals at therapeutic concentrations.
    Dr. Klein and his colleagues’ at the University of Pennsylvania discovered in 1996 that lithium ion deactivates the GSK-3B enzyme [2]. The regulation of GSK-3B by lithium may affect the circadian clock -- and recent research (Feb 2006) seems to concur with this conclusion. When the GSK-3B is activated, the protein Bmal1 is unable to reset the “master clock” inside the brain which disrupts the body’s natural cycle. When the cycle is disrupted, the routine schedules of many functions (metabolism, sleep, body temperature) are disturbed[3]. Lithium may thus restore disruption of a normal brain function in some people. Its complete mechanism in treatment of mood disorders remains a mystery.
    The time Lithium takes to reach steady state is 2 to 3 weeks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacology



    Of course Paxil is a SSRI which more ppl are already familiar with.

    I took myself off of Paxil and Lithium at the same time in 1996. It took about 2 full years for my brain to recover from the cold turkey approach.


    Tonyk: What experiences have you had with bipolar? Have you been diagnosed? Have you been prescribed any medications? Have those medications helped? What effects have different street drugs had on you and your mood? What experiences have you had with opiates and bipolar?



    Here's some info on bipolar:


    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinform...ipolarmenu.cfm

    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/medicate.cfm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

  18. #18
    Information Warrior HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    in your FACE
    Posts
    3,029

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Well, I understand wanting to discuss, I just don't like seeing people talk about treating depression with opiates. If someone is endorphin-deficient then opiates may be a bandaid but they won't be the solution.

    Besides most people I know that love opiates love to get high from them, not feel normal. And people who feel normal from opiates or heroin are most likely avoiding problems. Depression can't affect you as much if you don't feel it or anything else. It also helps to be ingesting super-euphoria-producing substances.

    But anyone (actually everyone) that claims to be better on opiates eventually crashes.

    Having said all that I'm interested in this as an illness. As you can see I just think its a bad idea to talk about 'curing' it with opiates.

    But based on the criteria, I don't have it. But I doubt the symptoms have really been nailed down that specifically. I have had other symptoms that would indicate endorphin deficiency.
    fuck happy.

  19. #19
    zombiewoof23
    Guest

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by HistoryofMadness View Post
    Well, I understand wanting to discuss, I just don't like seeing people talk about treating depression with opiates. If someone is endorphin-deficient then opiates may be a bandaid but they won't be the solution.

    Besides most people I know that love opiates love to get high from them, not feel normal. And people who feel normal from opiates or heroin are most likely avoiding problems. Depression can't affect you as much if you don't feel it or anything else. It also helps to be ingesting super-euphoria-producing substances.

    But anyone (actually everyone) that claims to be better on opiates eventually crashes.

    Having said all that I'm interested in this as an illness. As you can see I just think its a bad idea to talk about 'curing' it with opiates.

    But based on the criteria, I don't have it. But I doubt the symptoms have really been nailed down that specifically. I have had other symptoms that would indicate endorphin deficiency.
    I completely agree with all of the above. The negatives far outweigh the positives in using opiates or possibly any other type of potentially harmful activity in an attempt to cure or mask depression symptoms. I am interested in seeing research done on different things that could help the body naturally start producing these chemicals again in ppl's who might have a deficiency. Some of these deficiencies could be caused by the use of opiates (for the sake of the board), or by other drugs such as alcohol, amphetamines, MDMA, etc.

    Also I'd like to point out an error in my thinking. I mentioned that it could be argued that heroin addiction could be a form of self mutilation. After thinking this out, I decided that any kind of harmful activity that turns into an addiction that is used in an attempt to make a person feel better, could be a from of self mutilation. Some ppl turn to food, alcohol, cocaine, amps, over exercise, or whatever else which can be damaging to that person. In was unfair to say that heroin or opiates is the only thing that fits this criteria for this type of user. The speed of the digression can vary, but the same concept can apply across the board.

    I am only interested in hearing different ppl's opinions on the subject and I am interested in other alternatives that can be found or that there are legitimate studies on. Like I stated before, I believe this could go hand in hand with Jacky's research. I have also been interested in herbalism and have done tons of research on the subject over the past 7 years. My study was mainly native american plant species and had nothing to do with their affinity for opioid receptors. I've found Jacky's posts very interesting in this regard, because its an angle that few have studied.

    What if a person decided to kick H and then made it to the depression side of the WD's which can last for quite some time? One NA person told me that the depression can typically last for 12-18 months (18 in his case) and then still never completely goes away. What if in the course of looking and discussing scientific data and ppl's personal experience, we could come across things like what Rearden Metal mentioned (D-Phenylalanine, for example) to help ease or even best case scenario rid a person of the depression symptoms. I don't believe we will find a cure on this board considering there are too many factors to consider on the cause of depression for each individual and also there are more qualified ppl who have been working on this for years who still don't have all of the answers. I simply want to gather data or theories from these qualified ppl and discuss them with personal experience mixed in.

    Maybe the thread could be moved to a more appropriate place on the forums, or removed altogether if the mods think this topic is of no use to the boards.

  20. #20
    Opiophorum Member stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    i'm talking about the fact that your brain creates a multitude of additional receptors, which are still there when you quit. so the thing you think is helping you is really making things worse.
    Not you too?
    Tolerance is associated with OR down-regulation. Not up-regulation. Neither is down-regulation required for tolerance, though.
    I will, perhaps, post a more complete elucidation at the 'how to reduce tolerance' thread. I'm avoiding it right now not due to lack of evidence, but rather to the deeply-felt disgust from dealing with people like Hammilton (and also lack of time).

    As for the subject of this thread, once again, I do not understand why the focus on (beta)-endorphin, specifically. Within the confines of this discussion (basal endogenous opioid activity as related to mood), some pointers for further reading are: the enkephalins, basal receptor density and sensitivity, dynorpin, orphanin, and others. It is also believed that DOR is more strongly associated with depression than MOR, and some KOR antagonists have also been studied as antidepressants.

  21. #21
    OpioNoMo Frozen is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    IL.
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Seedy & BDR- Thanx for your help!

    Tonyk, I didn't mention bipolar for the same reason as I didn't include insomnia in my 'common traits' list. A large swath of all depression patients are bipolar instead of unipolar, and I have not seen any indication that these ratios differ greatly between E.O. deficiency depression patients and all the others.

    HOM: "Well, I understand wanting to discuss, I just don't like seeing people talk about treating depression with opiates. If someone is endorphin-deficient then opiates may be a bandaid but they won't be the solution. "

    HOM- Back when I was desperately searching for something, ANYTHING, to neutralize my depression-
    If I knew then all of the things I know now, I actually would not have gone straight to opioids. Before taking the drastic measure of purposely developing an illegal addiction, I'd have first tried DLPA, acupuncture (specifically, the shenmen points), capsaicin, and Dr. Bihari's LDN. I should soon update my website to incorporate this more moderate viewpoint.

    But based on the criteria, I don't have it.

    Yeah- obviously! Otherwise you wouldn't be so closed minded to acknowledging the syndrome's existence.

    stvip: Whenever I use the term 'endorphin deficiency', I really do mean 'endogenous opioid deficiency'- The former term is just a simpler and quicker way of saying it. Also, most people recognize the term 'endorphins', but have no idea what 'endogenous opioid' means. You may have noticed that my site does not fixate specifically on endorphins, to the exclusion of the other endogenous opioids.

  22. #22
    Opiophorum Member stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip will become famous soon enough stvip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Whenever I use the term 'endorphin deficiency', I really do mean 'endogenous opioid deficiency'- The former term is just a simpler and quicker way of saying it.
    'endomorphin' is short and accurate. And as forementioned, antagonizing an endogenous opioid - dynorphin, has also been studied with regards to depression, so 'deficiency' is problematic.
    Anyhow, I am not offering my opinion on the subject, just giving pointers to those who'd like to research the issue more fully. Another thing to consider is the interaction between modern classical antidepressants and the opioid system.

  23. #23
    Junky OhJoy is an unknown quantity at this point OhJoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by HistoryofMadness View Post
    i agree that lots of people have a lack or endorphins that leads to depression. the problem is this subject is much more complicated than just being able to sit around and casually discuss as laypeople.

    for example, why doesn't cheese or chocolate cure depression? why doesn't skydiving?

    better yet, why have i been depressed (severely) when opiated? i know when i'm not on opiates and i take them, i feel much better.

    but isn't that what they're for?

    the problem is that opiates can cause as much problem as they solve, and i'm not talking about n/a bullshit either.

    i'm talking about the fact that your brain creates a multitude of additional receptors, which are still there when you quit. so the thing you think is helping you is really making things worse.

    besides there are precursors to opiates and endorphines and dopamine etc etc and there are multiple types cause by many different things. furthermore the systems they work in are more complicated than linear discussion can relate.

    the problem is that depression is serious business and so is suicide and the last thing people who are noncompliant need is another reason to rebel against the system because the system won't prescribe them with what they think they need...

    you know? thoughts?
    I know I may be ultimately worse off then b4 I started down this road of taking opiates to treat my depression. But I don't care because at least for now life is good. you know that saying....
    It's better to have loved and lost then to never have loved at all.

    That's the way I feel about the whole thing.
    I'll take a few years of happy over a life time of nothing.

  24. #24
    Junky OhJoy is an unknown quantity at this point OhJoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    A) Weak immune system. Not True for me

    B) You've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high'. Not true for me


    C) Hypersensitivity/Tactile defensiveness. Yes very much so
    D) You're introverted, and annoyed by crowds. Yes very much so
    E) Pollen allergy/Hay fever- Yes definintely

    F) You're easy to bring to tears, or at least you were that way through your teenage years. Yes
    G) You have a 'Cluster B' personality disorder. Yes


    H) Your motor coordination skills developed slowly as a child. Yes
    I'll take a few years of happy over a life time of nothing.

  25. #25
    Never Looked Back Curio is fresh on the scene. Curio is fresh on the scene. Curio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    In a VAN....down by the RIVER!!
    Posts
    1,055

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    A) Weak immune system. Not True for me

    B) You've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high'. Not true for me

    C) Hypersensitivity/Tactile defensiveness. Yes esp. since experiencing nerve compression/damage
    D) You're introverted, and annoyed by crowds. Yes, it may seem as though I'm outgoing here, but I used to be able to act this way in person...now hard being in public or around people
    E) Pollen allergy/Hay fever- Yes, once to the point of asthma/reactive airway disease
    F) You're easy to bring to tears, or at least you were that way through your teenage years. Yes..but while very tearful back then, no one would ever have known like now when I can't hide it anymore..^^perhaps that explains above for "avoiding crowds" ha ha
    G) You have a 'Cluster B' personality disorder. Don't know.. still not been treated for ADD developed during this already chemically imbalanced period.


    H) Your motor coordination skills developed slowly as a child. NO

    See, not sure I fit in with opiate deficient since birth, but I know something happened to me beginning with a car accident right before my 21st b-day and while I was able to balance things back out to an extent, having neurological trauma and untreated pain and out of control stress since 2004 simply has my system running sideways..I may be checking into an inpatient clinic just so I can get a doc to get some meds for me that work SOONER rather than later....BEFORE I've lost every shred of hope and the career certifications I worked half a decade to obtain.
    Curio/comaTOES

    I wasn't sleeping ! I was IN A COMA!

  26. #26
    Junky OhJoy is an unknown quantity at this point OhJoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by stvip View Post
    Not you too?
    Tolerance is associated with OR down-regulation. Not up-regulation. Neither is down-regulation required for tolerance, though.
    I will, perhaps, post a more complete elucidation at the 'how to reduce tolerance' thread. I'm avoiding it right now not due to lack of evidence, but rather to the deeply-felt disgust from dealing with people like Hammilton (and also lack of time).

    As for the subject of this thread, once again, I do not understand why the focus on (beta)-endorphin, specifically. Within the confines of this discussion (basal endogenous opioid activity as related to mood), some pointers for further reading are: the enkephalins, basal receptor density and sensitivity, dynorpin, orphanin, and others. It is also believed that DOR is more strongly associated with depression than MOR, and some KOR antagonists have also been studied as antidepressants.
    I'm intersted in what you have to say. (eventhough some of it may be over my head. )
    I'll take a few years of happy over a life time of nothing.

  27. #27
    Junky OhJoy is an unknown quantity at this point OhJoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by stvip View Post
    Another thing to consider is the interaction between modern classical antidepressants and the opioid system.
    That was going to be my next question.

    What are your thoughts on taking Lexapro and hydrocodone together?
    I'll take a few years of happy over a life time of nothing.

  28. #28
    OpioNoMo Frozen is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    IL.
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by stvip View Post
    I will, perhaps, post a more complete elucidation at the 'how to reduce tolerance' thread. I'm avoiding it right now not due to lack of evidence, but rather to the deeply-felt disgust from dealing with people like Hammilton (and also lack of time).
    Thanx to those who answered my survey! Keep it coming...

    stvip: Nobody has a 100% 'approval rating'- Not even Mother Theresa. No matter who you are and what you accomplish, there will always be some detractors. However, if you have valuable & accurate information on battling tolerance, I'm sure it will be accepted and appreciated by most of us.

  29. #29
    Junky djnarkotik is an unknown quantity at this point djnarkotik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    445

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Ya this is definately an interesting topic.

    I remember looking into this for my Biological psychology course.

    The mechanism for endorphin related anxiety and depression impact is known. I will post some of the research regarding this in a bit.

    I think the problem is western medicine likes to isolate individual causes and problems- but has trouble looking at the big picture. They are so quick to implicate something like serotonin in depression, but they are now realizing even just depression is so complex and related to so many different internal factors that they know almost nothing about it.

  30. #30
    OpioNoMo tptptp is a jewel in the rough tptptp is a jewel in the rough tptptp is a jewel in the rough tptptp is a jewel in the rough tptptp is a jewel in the rough tptptp is a jewel in the rough tptptp is a jewel in the rough
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,185

    Default Re: Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by HistoryofMadness View Post
    i agree that lots of people have a lack or endorphins that leads to depression. the problem is this subject is much more complicated than just being able to sit around and casually discuss as laypeople.

    for example, why doesn't cheese or chocolate cure depression? why doesn't skydiving?

    better yet, why have i been depressed (severely) when opiated? i know when i'm not on opiates and i take them, i feel much better.

    but isn't that what they're for?

    the problem is that opiates can cause as much problem as they solve, and i'm not talking about n/a bullshit either.

    i'm talking about the fact that your brain creates a multitude of additional receptors, which are still there when you quit. so the thing you think is helping you is really making things worse.

    besides there are precursors to opiates and endorphines and dopamine etc etc and there are multiple types cause by many different things. furthermore the systems they work in are more complicated than linear discussion can relate.

    the problem is that depression is serious business and so is suicide and the last thing people who are noncompliant need is another reason to rebel against the system because the system won't prescribe them with what they think they need...

    you know? thoughts?
    I agree that opiates can be a double edged sword when it comes to depression. One thing I wanmted to bring up was an article that I cant quite rmember where I read that basically said most hardcore opiate addicts were severely depressed but it seemed to stem from the stigma that the addiction carried guilt/shame/feeling of worthlesness/helplessn. etc.

    Was an interesting article basically saying that it appears alot of the depression caused by opiates is a self reflective depression caused by the stigma opiates carry.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts