debating.

[blackman]

Disco, I did get on bupe without a habit. Here I am nearly a year later. I'm not unhappy but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want off this shit.

It comes in waves. Some days I'm completely content being on suboxone, other days I'm fucking annoyed that I'm on it. Sometimes I think if I could just scrounge up enough cash for a months supply of roxies, I could finally get off for good.

I dunno. Your decision. But hey, the psychological addiction is still there, if not for dope then to try to catch a buzz off the bupe. One evil for another.

G'luck girl.

[Count Zero]

analgesia does play a part, especially in winter.
seems like that's when it hurts the worst.
but all in all, I think I'm gonna avoid it.
seems like it would just make it worse in the long run.

I never really thought chipping would be a long-term option.
to be honest, I never thought about long-term at all.
I bet the rehab people never thought of "just for today" like that,
but it applies to addiction as much as it does recovery.
maybe that's why they emphasize it like they do.
change is easier if some things remain familiar.

I was doing fine for awhile, but once a month became once a week,
and once a week became every few days. . .
after that, it seemed like going a week was torture,
searing the thoughts of using into my mind like a brand.
I wish I didn't know what I was missing when I'm sober,
but now that I do know, it's hard to just walk away from.
I cringe at the thought of living the rest of my life without a shot.
hell, the rest of my life? the thought of going the rest of the month is a nightmare.
I guess I'm just being dramatic. still, if sub isn't an option,
my next steps are unclear to me at this point.
I don't like not knowing, especially something like this.

I know what I should do, but there isn't an addict that doesn't know
that everything in the world would be better if s/he could walk away.
I'm just not willing to quit yet. I guess I keep trying to chip,
and learn to cope with all of the downtime.
I thought it would get easier with time but instead it seems harder.

I know this point of view wouldn't get me far in an AA meeting but I'm an advocate of replacement drugs, the total abstinance thing is unrealistic for a lot of people and never worked for me. Of course you're never going to recover the former opiate glory-shit you don't do that on opiates after awhile-but you can find something or some mixture of things that makes you feel halfway good without destroying your life. You have to settle for less and like it.
For me, reefer, kratom, pods, wine are all part of the mix, I mix the first 3 all the time but when I do pods I do pods- but there's a lot of quasi or totally legal stuff out there that can help get you there but of course there is not where you really want to be but it's better than jumping out of your skin and being sober and miserable.
Dr. Fingers posts often deal with stuff like this and it can take awhile to find the good combos. Of course it took me 15-20 years of junkiehood to figure that out, I hope you don't waste as much time as I did.

[chopstix]

^^ After 12 years on dope, I had almost 6 years dope free - happy, re-newed hobbies, strong relationship, kicking ass in school, great job, great friends; and I fucked it up myself, *I* went looking for the dope and knew I was fucking up.

My GF ran hard for 5 years, lots of MD detoxes, multi-gram/day habit. She's about 14 years clean now from H, she does take a *very* small amount of hydro for legit pain, but she literally breaks 7.5mg Vicoprofen into pieces.

Another girl I know, strung through most of her teens and into early twenties, now 30 something, wouldn't even know what to do with dope these days, she's so far removed from the person I knew as a teen it's ridiculous.

The phrase "once a junky, always a junky" is %100 horse shit. It just takes a MAJOR kick in the ass and a strong desire to get away, to change, that's all..

[Vitor]

If you know what the right thing to do is, why not just do it?

[Disconnect]

If you know what the right thing to do is, why not just do it?

why doesn't anyone? if everyone should quit, and everyone knows it,
why is there anyone here, on this website, at all? think about it.

why don't you quit?

[nick]

If you know what the right thing to do is, why not just do it?

Shit,why didn't I think of that!!

Seriously funny.

[Just1Fix]

What is 'right', the right thing to do, and how do you or anyone else know? Miss Cleo went to jail. Sylvester Stalone's mom is psychically reading ass cheeks. That other fuckin guy is chattin to dead relatives... They're all 'allegedly' psychic, tellin you the 'right' things you want to hear.... Its a forum full of addicts, some went right, others went left, some still hangin with the monkey in the middle. Disconnect seems young, has potential (we all do, but some of us not so young anymore) and when your a fucking addict- you question the fuck outta yourself- and there are no right answers.
Do I quit? Am I gonna be doin this shit forever? Will I die a junkie? Why or how didn't I OD? That methadone/suboxone shit work? Hmmm, wonder what this does, its an opiate- fuck it...

You know how many people are dead cuz they 'did what they knew was right at the time'? The perc popper who took a few 10/325's and then went to a 40mg wafer. The oxycontin kids who start doin dope and do a bit too much.. Fuck- even the dumbfuck parents tryin to quiet the kid up so they can 'nod' at one point thought they were doing the right thing- likely up until the 911 call & handcuffing.

So WTF is right? and then, post proof it is...

If someone's asking questions, its usually to get others opinions, insight, experience, gather up info to try & make a more informed decision- methadone & subs are huge decisions whether its rec, taper, maintenance, and more people go in too naive to it to realize they put down the junk for junk. It might get you straight, you might turn 'lifer', it might not be your thing at all..

If/When you cleaned up, what was in your head Vitor? Be honest bout it too.. We're you thinkin you could fuck around? Feel impending doom? Feel great & free? I know for a fact that you definitely were uncomfortable in your own skin and your mind was running circles around the opiate receptors..What was the next right thing then?

and I did the right thing - I smoked your TV

[Junkette]

Just say no





To shitty maintenance drugs.


Ps. Can we make that a meme?

[Miss M]

If you're gonna chip, better in the long run to do it with subs than with dope.
I know results with "cravings" vary, but using a low, low dose has kept me otherwise sober for better than 3 years now.

What are "cravings" really, anyway? Simple: You want dope. Badly.
I always will, and likely you will too, to some degree.

I guess the subs take some/most of that edge off for me -- at least allow me enough relief to step back and
weigh out the whole risk vs. benefit thing with a more rational mind than without them.

Maybe give it a trial run and then step back and evaluate?

Here's hoping you find an answer that works for you......

[dride]

all i can say is run while you still can. a kid in my program is in ur shoes 45 days clean and still jonesing so they put him on 24 mg sub. rediculous. i gave him a lecture and hes just so happy and everythings perfect for now since hes loaded. but shit only lasts for so long nobody wants a habit and its all the same. and the directors off my program treat the kid like a fucking miracle and im scum since im still on done even tho im at 15 and droping. but anyways just go through the misery now or try it out for afew months see how it is. u got a life long time to fuck things up. your doing good give it a chance

[Vitor]

Sure, my comment was overly simplistic, I'll give you that (and yeah, maybe a bit dumb). But it seems to me that if I made the right choices when I could, when I had the luxury, I wouldn't be where I am today. Looking back, I always knew what I shouldn't be doing, and I did it anyway. At least I can never blame anyone except myself - and that's one of the redeeming qualities of being a junkie.

Disconnect, please heed that little voice in your head that tells you what the right thing is. Run while you still can.

[Junkette]

In all seriousness, if suboxone worked for me I would probably be on it, but it doesn't so I take heroin every day like clock work. Methadone proved to be much better in all ways and I was even to the point where I was starting to like it more than heroin, go figure. But then there was um, a snare in the supply link if you would and I found a really great bulk heroin supply soo...

My honest opinion is this...if you feel you are eventually going to end up on maintnance anyway and you are only delaying the inevitable. Maybe do it now. But allow me to share a little antidote.

An old junkie "pal" of mine, or I mean a scumbag piece of shit who use to rip me off, recently had to go to the hospital for shooting bath salts and getting an infection. He's on suboxone. High dosage. He has surgery and whoops no amount of pain meds are breaking through his suboxone.

If you are really committed to this tragic and misappropriated way of life then why not. But just remember it can and does get worse and everything you do has it's own consequences.

[Fat Pie]

An old junkie "pal" of mine, or I mean a scumbag piece of shit who use to rip me off, recently had to go to the hospital for shooting bath salts and getting an infection. He's on suboxone. High dosage. He has surgery and whoops no amount of pain meds are breaking through his suboxone.

How much was he taking?

[odd]

Subs have saved my ass many times. I can deal with the physical no problem but it's the mental that fucks me. When subs worked for me it was heaven. No WD. no PAWS nothing. Took away all cravings and jumping off for me was never a problem. Fast forward 8 + years and 6 sub kicks later and those pills are about as useful to me as aspirin. All they do to me know is block opiates. No relief from physical or mental nothing. I would save those sub days for when you really want off and don't abuse them. I wish I had known how they would loose their effect after some time. I have to CT everytime I kick now and as you can imagine it fuckign sucks.

[Vitor]

Disconnect, I'm sorry if my first post here made me sound like a know it all douchebag. It was not my intention at all I assure you.

It says more about me than anything else. I strongly believe that the outcome in life comes down to a series of decisions. Decisions such as the one you are facing right now. And I know I always took the easy way out. Which is why I blame myself for my addictions. Over the years I tried to blame everyone, starting from the guy who gave me my first free hit instead of giving me the money he owed me, or the people who in one way or another pushed me towards that road.

But at the end of the day I made those decisions. No one else made them for me. And at the back of my head, there was always a little voice who told me I was taking all the wrong decisions. But I never listened, and still don't. I just wish you could, that's all.

So here's what little advice I can give you:

a) Chipping (H) never worked for me. It was just the journey to the final destination of full blown addiction. Time and time again, same thing happened. The 'off' days will come to suck so much, that it's almost an inevitability.

b) I would say chipping with bupe is highly preferable to chipping H. It's probably more manageable. If anything, you would be doing away with legal issues, supply issues, dealing with assholes, and so on. Also, given that it's a partial agonist, there's less need (I'd say none) to increase dosage due to tolerance issues. Another pro is it's long half-life, so you'd probably still feel well during your off days.

c) If your bupe habit ends up to be an every day habit, to me it's still preferable to an H habit. Others might disagree with me, but I think that you'd be much more stable on bupe than you could ever be on H. And as per point (a), I think physical dependence to H is very difficult to avoid.
Bupe helped me out immensely. It's a heavy ball and chain, but at least I can go on with my life pretending I'm not an addict. It's entirely possible to be on just bupe and not chip H at all. Remember that it's not just getting on bupe and that's it - you need to work on your life. Find some hobbies, some new friends, a demanding job. Anything which will give you something else to look forward to, other than getting high. I think the cravings if you're on bupe will correlate to whatever else is going on in your life. So you need to work at it, stay vigilant.

d) The best option, and the most difficult, would be to run like hell, as I said before. This might not be possible due to various reasons, but if something is worth having, it's worth fighting for. And again, others might not agree with me, but to me sobriety is something I envy in other people. And I regret each opportunity I had to quit which I squandered. Remember, addiction is a progressive disease. It will get worse before it gets better. And as someone more intelligent than me already said before me, each time you give in to a craving, you're conditioning yourself to be more susceptible to giving in in the future. The more you resist, the more you'll be able to resist. Be strong - you CAN do it. The world is yours.

I hope this is a bit more helpful than that dumbass first post.
Good luck to you.

[Tylercwxzy]

I went back to subs after 2 1/2 months sober from over a year of 120mg of methadone a day. Alot of it had to do with the paws and just being in a constant state of depression/lethargy. The bupe helps tremendously more than no opiates at all, I can't function anymore completely clean. My last month before going back on I was taking 8-10mg of xanax a day just to sleep and not think about jumping off the skyway bridge.

Currently take 6mgs a day give or take of subutex. As i've said in the past wouldn't hesitate to go back on methadone just not in a clinic setting. Its better than nothing at all, the very least I feel normal most days, maybe a 6-7/10 compared to what I felt like before getting into oxycodone. Suboxone has many flaws, the few perks that come with it are what keep me going. Good luck with whatever you choose

[Count Zero]

It's good to know that can be done. It sounds pretty aggressive to me, I guess 2 1/2 months is enough to get all the done out of your system-but you were only on a year-I'm sure that helped. Anyway if you're up for it, I'd like to hear some more details like how long did it take to get from 125 to 0 and how was that, and what was the intro to subs like and stuff like that. That's a major switch to pull off, serious props.

[chopstix]

That's why MD scares me so much, and why I was so resistant to MMT for so long. Drink the shit long enough, and I think your receptors will never be quite the same. I suspect bup might do something similar - permanent changes to receptors resulting in either some degree of PAWS, or some degree of fixed, quite possibly for life if you can't just ride it out for 6mos - a year, which is a long time when you feel like shit. That's kind of a shitty reality for a 30yo.

Your 20s are great years, at least they should be. Once they're gone, you'll spend the rest of your life hearing about what other people did/accomplished in their 20s: school, travel, sexcapades, wicked fun parties, mad fun with friends - that's a great period of life, and to sell it off to dope addiction, IMO, is a tragic waste. I blew off most of my 20s to dope and treatment programs (at a time when the local music scene was on the verge of exploding into a new genre - I don't even want to know how many epic, $15 shows I missed at The Central); and ya - I do have some stories, but they're not stories I can tell to most people.. Those stories carry a lot of novelty at first, but they don't pay any bills and they don't read so well on a resume. Junky life seems so romantic on paper, but not so much in hindsight..

Dope isn't going anywhere, it'll always be around. Life goes by tho, you're only 25 for a year and then never again, and pretty soon you're 30, then 35, then 40. Every year goes by a little faster, MHA is to enjoy the good ones while you can..

[Tylercwxzy]

It's good to know that can be done. It sounds pretty aggressive to me, I guess 2 1/2 months is enough to get all the done out of your system-but you were only on a year-I'm sure that helped. Anyway if you're up for it, I'd like to hear some more details like how long did it take to get from 125 to 0 and how was that, and what was the intro to subs like and stuff like that. That's a major switch to pull off, serious props.

I went from 130 actually to 0 in 7 day rapid detox at the clinic. They had just raised me up again even though I really didn't want the increase, spent about 2 weeks in bed first week with nothing but lope then the 2nd week my buddy got ahold of a few scripts of xanax and fronted it to me so towards the end wasn't so bad. I had gone through done w/ds before, jumped off 80mg when my mom was writing scripts but was nothing compared to the hell I experienced the next time around. The first sub doctor I went to was my original, been to 2 different ones in the past and he was a total dick. Just wrote the script said see you in a week, if you don't pass the next 3 drug screens your out of the program. So after a month of that I went back to my current and old sub dr.

PS: I +rep'd alot of the posts in here, very good advice guys. Thats why I love this site so much, you can find out anything you need to know and most people including myself know more about drugs effects on the body then most docs do.

Another good chipping tool, go out and get the DXM/doxylamine succinate combo without the tylenol. It does wonders for my tolerance and helps keep cravings away. 30-45mg to start, usually take between 45-90mg though to get a good effect.

Very nice guy, had his sub license pulled few years back when the DEA raided his office(was a pain management doc) so he gave me a script for 60 oxycodone for 2 weeks worth till I could get in to the clinic. He no longer does pain management, plus I get 60 generic subutex a month even though he knows I only take 1/2-1 pill a day max. Doesn't give me shit for having THC in my system, doesn't even test me that much. Monday was my first drug test with him out of the whole six months I've been going and thats because florida is cracking down on all the sub and pain doctors. For a good 2 months though I would feel my dose, I took maybe 2mgs a day max and it got me where I wanted to be. My tolerance dropped way down after the clinic.

Thanks for the kind words, always appreciated. I've come along way in the past 2 years.Edit: I forgot to mention to the op, if you stay on a low dose 3mg or less a day, I could still get buzzed on time release 15mg morphine tabs the first few months. Max I would wait to dose is 10-12 hours after my sub, would take about 1mg in the morning instead then dose the morphine after work( usually around 80-140mg oral time release) within 2-4 hours I'd be nodding. Just something to consider, the bupe provides me with stability and if I want to take a vacation every few months for a weekend I do. Lately though just straight 'tex mixed with DXM/nyquil and a few tokes and I get a nice glow for a few hours. Its just enough to keep me going.

[Tylercwxzy]

One other thing, do you smoke weed or take any sedatives(benzos, barbs?). I tend to find the marijuana helps alot when combined with subutex for opiate cravings since it has its own analgesic effects and helps to keep your mind off wanting to go score those first few days from the switch from H to subs. My main point is if you can manage on the bupe and find a dr whose not super strict but alot of them are inbetween and start out low, try to get your H tolerance down a few days before the switch. Bupe can be a godsend for us junkies because we are so limited in what the government tells us we have two choices.

If your tolerance is low enough, between 1-1.7mg tooted up the nose will get you nice and high for the first 3-5 days. I got a nice buzz off 2mg/day for a good 2-3 weeks(mixed with pot). I find both to be extremely useful with bupe treatment. Keeps the mind from constantly thinking about a hit.

[mainline]

I may be alone here, but sub is a good choice IMO. Disco, are you going to get a physical habit in the near future? No offense, but I think it's a high possibility. Sub may be good option for pain control, ( Bupe doesn't help my back pain from my accidents, but it does help my colitis)(which i need a new colonoscopy for, it may atually be Chrons considering the serverity of my symptoms)

For pain control, and for helping your depression and helping to stabilize in life and your anxiety may dissipate, cause the 'days off' are gone now. just IMO