Never Jump Off at 10mg!

[antigonemuse]

so, its been two weeks of pure hell. Not able to take it anymore, I reached out to my doctor and therapist.

My taper was not done properly, which really pisses me off. I worked over the past year and a half to come off. The nurses told me that by the time I go to ten mg, that it wouldnt be doing anything for me, and any feeling of discomfort would be in my head. They advised me to take my last two doses at 10mg, then leave. Mind you, there was no exit interview with the doctor, nor had my worker seen me once during my taper to see how things were. I saw him the day I left, and he didnt prepare me for any of this. I wasnt even told the half life of the meds, and how I would feel over the next few weeks.

at first I was feeling really good about it, the first week went as I expected. This past week I got gradually worse. I remember withdrawal very well, and this has been surreal. After almost collapsing at work (50 -60 hours weeks) I swallowed my pride and started making calls to everyone under the sun for help.

I mentioned in my other thread, this is the first tiime in a long time where i have entertained sticking a needle back in my beautifully healed arms... (i have veins back, and after much use and abuse, even the tracks have faded to where I can wear tshirts again)

My primary doctor told me to increase my kpins. He isnt able to scribe subtex. The clinic said they would re=evauluate me, and if they saw fit, put me back on 30, wait three months, then taper me again (big step back).

My therapist just spoke to me and told me the grisly fact that the methadone was stopped at too high a dose. that i was grossly misinformed. She told me it takes two weeks for it to begin leaving my system, and while it would get better, that its not a matter of me being weak but a medical issue that needed to be addressed. She is going to call my doctor tomorrow morning and request he scribe me five mg of methadone a day for a month, the 2.5 for the next month. He is a good doctor, so I can see him doing it. so, i am preying this works out. i cant imagine going back into the clinic. I know doctors dont typically do tapers, but im hoping that because my therapist is making the referal, he will do it.

wish me luck, and never never drop off at 10.

[iriewon]

seen this coming :-/ hope it gets better...i jumped at exactly 10mg before and as much as my faded mind can remember it was just as bad as my ct jail kick at 125mg. 4 months later after kicking ct 125mg went back to using just to feel "normal" and get a good nights rest....1 1/2 months after jumping at 10mg same thing happened...then back to daily using. try and not let that happen to you.

have you considered kratom? or maybe even a couple low dose percocet or w/e else just to help even things out a little? help get your mind right and reasses if you really want/need to get back on the done or subs. just something to buy some time...idk just tryna throw things out there that have worked for others/myself in the past in prolonging jumping back on the done/dope/whatever wagon....good luck antigone!

[Chipper]

That's what I was trying to tell you ... don't "jump" off any maint. meds.

From 10 you can jump down to 8 like from 100 you could jump to 80. Same pain.

[nick]

Nil desperandum,luv.

I too thought there'd be a sting in the tail jumping from 10mgs. You need to be rxed 10mgs again and give it a few weeks to acclimatise again.Then this time go down slowly as low as 1mg.

The hardest part of a methadone taper is under 30-then it gets harder both physically and psychologically.

It CAN be done though and you have the same good attitude you had before.So,dig in,take your time(it's not a race) and keep moving forward.

Much luck.

[hydrophile]

Not to be rude cause that really sucks that they told you, you would be fine when anybody here could tell you you wouldnt but my question is how did you not know the half life of methadone. Do you know how dangerous that is? If you had double dosed when you were at a higher mg you could of ODed easily. Thats really scary they had youthat uninformed/misinformed. I wouldnt go back there.

[poppy]

So,dig in,take your time(it's not a race) and keep moving forward.

Much luck.

Wise words.
We're all rooting for you here.

--- auto merge ---

Not to be rude cause that really sucks that they told you, you would be fine when anybody here could tell you you wouldnt but my question is how did you not know the half life of methadone. Do you know how dangerous that is? If you had double dosed when you were at a higher mg you could of ODed easily. Thats really scary they had youthat uninformed/misinformed. I wouldnt go back there.

I've got to say that I have NEVER had a doctor or drug worker explain to me about the half life of methadone. I doubt many of the users I know in real life know anything about it either. I never cease to be amazed at how uninformed some users actually are. A few months back, I got into a discussion with a group of other users as to whether the fact one of them had had a blood transfusion the day before would have set his opiate tolerance back to zero, making him at risk of overdosing on his usual daily bag of smack and therefore a potential liability to the rest of them. I've said it loads of times but Opiophile is not at all representative of most of the junkies I know in real life in terms of knowledge about opiates.

[Snoops]

Like the OP, I've jumped from 10mg before... And like Iriewon, I CT kicked 150mgs in jail.

I gotta say though, there isn't much difference. Although, being deprived of the freedom to make things a bit more bearable does really add to the harsh wd's.... Trapped in a cold hard cage. No Lope. No hope.

Be the Tortoise. Not the Hare.

I admire your will....All of my sobriety has been forced. And being on maintenance is as close to "clean" as I get.

[antigonemuse]

i admit, i really should have researched and known more about the process of tapering. in the same thought, the clinic should have prepared me a bit better, and i have no idea why i wasnt given an exist interview with the clinic doctor. every nurse there i would bring up my concerns to, told me the same thing... to hydrate, drink boost, ect.
The clinic only tapers to five too. so towards the end, and being told by professionals that any discomfort i felt was somatic. I wanted to believe that (ironic right?). Im glade i posted here after, cause it was you guys who gave me an indication that something was wrong. and the feeling i was having was not typical of a proper mmt taper. My therapist had said, even thought methadone was not her scope of practice, she knew that 10mg was too much for anyone to handle easily. She wants my primary doctor to help me though the rest of the taper. and doing it very slow over two more months or longer depending on how i hold up.

and i did have an idea how dirty methadone is, i didnt realize any opiate had a half life that long. it makes perfect sense judging by the way i feel. Cause the first week wasnt too bad. But christ almighty, this is just as bad as a dry spell in the peek of my use.

and it really gets to me that a mmt program, has professionals who are burnt out, delve out the done like its their own personal stash, and have an obvious distaste for junkys. I almost feel like it was passive agressive... cause that is how they were with everything else. this is the only clinic within 100 plus miles. took me over a year to get in too. the whole experience there was not easy. but i didnt expect it to be. its not like i expected more then i should have either.

even if i did put the extra month in to get down to five, i still think id be feeling as bad.


and even though i do have a knawing want to snuff the pain... i keep reminding myself that my use was far harder. i had to use every few hours to stay well. waking up with projectile vomit if i slept too long. the program did however give me oppertunity to take advantage of being comfortable enough to seek out help, go to school, start working again... it was during this time that i gained some kind of will power back... cause i most certianly did not have any when i went into the program. i was iv'ing coke and crack habitually for my first year or so on. but found the want to be done with it somehow. its been over 20 years high now... to paraphrase hunter s., looking to the west, with the right kind of eyes u can see where the wave broke. (not perfectly quoted). its exactly how i felt though. my tide came in, and it was time to come ashore.

one of the weirdest things is not having to worry about money, being able to pay my rent... my check lasts longer then a week. (hell longer then a few hours). anyhow, thats off topic

[Princess Kitty]

What your dr should do is rx you something like oxycodone or hydrocodone. Because they don't stay in your system very long. They would help you detox from the done and then dr would taper you off the short acting opies. I've heard a few members who have done this and I'm hoping they'll chime in soon. It's going to be tricky to find a dr to do this for ya. I hope you so find one though. I have my fingers and toes crossed for ya.

[Chipper]

Even now I have extra Methadone -- take my advice and find some. Jumping off at 5 mg. can drive you to tears, too.

I won't nag but those last 10 mgs. should take about a month.

Don't go back up to 30, though. Do what Nick says.

[nick]

What your dr should do is rx you something like oxycodone or hydrocodone. Because they don't stay in your system very long. They would help you detox from the done and then dr would taper you off the short acting opies. I've heard a few members who have done this and I'm hoping they'll chime in soon. It's going to be tricky to find a dr to do this for ya. I hope you so find one though. I have my fingers and toes crossed for ya.

That might work for some,BUT many professionals won't try this because they distrust their own clinical judgement-the judgement being which clients have the right attitude to their taper and can safely use short acting opiates-it's very easy for many at the tail end of a lengthy,difficult taper to abuse short acting opiates and undo a lot of hard work at the least and potentially it can be deadly.
The sad fact is,there aren't many medical professionals who are competent treating addiction.

EDIT,Even codeine which has less abuse potential leads to mixed results when used as a "bridge" treatment.

DOUBLE EDIT,By FAR the most effective tapers are client driven and the only way that can be achieved is to fully inform the client about their treatment,enabling and empowering them to control their own taper.Client driven tapers with suitable support structure(especially at the end) give addicts the best shot at getting off-it's sad,but not surprising that what should be a simple and straight forward protocol is actually pretty rare.

[antigonemuse]

amen...

[Junkette]

To me coming off ten Mgs of done was/as bad/the same as coming off heroin.

Being sick is being sick. Opana was worse than both by a lot, only thing that made me consider putting a gun in my mouth.

[clinton]

I'm sorry your doctor and nurses at the clinic were so misinformed ..
10 Mgs is huge to quit cold turkey on, quite irresponsible of them..
I wonder how well this advice has worked in the past, how many patients jumped off at 10 Mgs only to be sick for weeks on end say fuck it and start all over again...

[antigonemuse]

between me and my therapist, we are going to put a formal complaint iinto OSHA in reguards to my whole situtation. My taper should have been monitered alot better. Not only was there no exit interview, but i have not seen the doctor since i started the taper (over a year and a half). and the nurses should not have been dismissing my questions with answers like they did. I asked them over and over about what i was going through, they should have referred me to the doctor.

I put in hard work to get better, and now feel like i was set out to fail... im sure it wasnt their intension. it was however very unprofessional on the clinics part. gurrr

[SeVeN]

ickk. Methadone is one bad bitch. Since you have got so far along tho have you considered doing something like codeine? OR would this lead you back to the dragon?

Last time i CT methadone I found codeine to be reall fucking helpful, despite the fact that i figured it wouldnt do shit. If your two weeks into a 10 mg kick Id definately consider something like this as an option.

The cold hard truth however is that the WD effects will probably make it to 4 weeks and even after that you will be fucked up in the head. Like your heads swimming around.

I truly wish you the best of luck, methadone is a nitch and a half. IF you do start again maybe see if you can start at 10mgs where you left off?

[Fat Pie]

The nurses told me that by the time I go to ten mg, that it wouldnt be doing anything for me, and any feeling of discomfort would be in my head.

They've obviously never done a jump themselves. I think in a scenario like this things have to be very user-oriented/specified, you can't generalise.

[Count Zero]

Not to be rude cause that really sucks that they told you, you would be fine when anybody here could tell you you wouldnt but my question is how did you not know the half life of methadone. Do you know how dangerous that is? If you had double dosed when you were at a higher mg you could of ODed easily. Thats really scary they had youthat uninformed/misinformed. I wouldnt go back there.

No offense but I also find it kind of hard to believe that you could be on high dose methadone for 1 1/2 years and not know enough about the half life of it to figure out that jumping off at 10 would be very unpleasant no matter what the clueless & dangerously incompetent nurse told you. Basically you stopped your taper at the point it should have been done even more slowly and drawn out. I think it would be foolish (insane actually)to go back on 30 for three months and then taper-they're loading you up with more bad advice IMO. I would start a 2-4-6 week taper now at 7 or 8, maybe 5 or 6 and see how you feel. As bad as it has been you've made great progress toward your goal and to backtrack makes no sense (to me). Good luck, you're in the homestretch.

[Flowergirl]

OSHA, Antigonemuse?

[chopstix]

OSHA, Antigonemuse?

Ya that's what I was wondering - doesn't seem like the proper organization to target.

Not seeing a doc during the whole taper, that almost sounds like Malpractice.

[Uncle Wiggly]

Not seeing a doc during the whole taper, that almost sounds like Malpractice.

This seems to be closer to the mark - IMHO.

[pullmyhair]

ASAIK your doctor (at the clinic) has to see you at least once per year to rewrite your prescription. It also seems odd that your clinic doesn't dose below 5mg. The 'best practice' is to lower your dose by 10% every two weeks (ie 100-90-81-73-66, etc) and to stop and stabilize if a particular reduction is too rough. As others have said 30mg and under should go even slower, all the way to 1mg. I honestly don't think you have a malpractice case, but you could file a complaint with their accrediting agency (CARF or JCAHO) and with your state methadone authority (each state has one).

[alowishus]

So sorry to read this - you seemed SOO happy and upbeat...
I wondered about the jump, but figured you or your "people" had it under control.

Maybe think before you go making too many waves, one of those may come back and knock you outta the boat!!

[Snoops]

Im just wondering how one gets on MMT, AND is a member of this community here... Doesn't/Didn't have more of an understanding?

Not to be judgmental or anything like that to the OP... I wouldn't make a huge fuss. I believe that even the patient has a duty to know what one is putting into their own bodies. Just get back to 10mgs, taper more properly, and enjoy your sobriety thereafter.

Good luck dude....

[antigonemuse]

to answer the question how i didnt know that half life.... well i just cant answer that. i knew going on that it was a long acting heavy drug.... at that point i needed my life saved... so learning the bits a peices was not the priority. and why its my fault i wasnt properly informed or tapered is beyound me. i worked real hard to get off, wanted off, and inquired properly. every step of the way i asked what was going on. and met with the same answers. and this clinic only has an exit dose of 1o or five. i honestly dont think mnay patients there have successfully completed a self requested taper. most are detoxed administrativly or stop to start using again. and i was way overdue for my yearly appointment with the doctor... my counselor hasnt evwn seen me since i started my taper. he would come down to the waiting room with back dated treatment plans for me to sign.

for many reasons i just wanted off and out of that place. it was not a heathly setting for recovery by any means. Recently there was an undercover sting to arrest dealers using the clinic as a "street corner". there are articles online about the "sting" and bust... I am not niave, nor am i lacking an intellect. I have a will to get better, used the clinic and every resource it had to better myself.

I honestly feel that even if i chose to stay on for five mg, Id be going through the same thing. They only dropped by incriments of five mg, not percentages. I was lucky to get that to be honest. They tryed getting me to agree to ten mg every week. I had the option all along to pause the taper or increase my dose. But I just wanted to get to the end of it. I wanted very much to believe that the nurses were giving me the correct info, and that i would be fine. I never abused methadone when i was using. I ddint know how bad it is to come off. Heroin, oxy, hydromorph, were easy compaired to this.

I even called them during this period since ive been off and still was not told the half life when i asked. I found out from my therapist at a different center. And the clinic even passed me off to my primary, the primary passed me off to my therapist, and at first they suggest crisis or a psych ward cause none of the doctors were there to help me that day. I think nick, or someone said it above, that its not common to learn the half life or the drugs your on when prescribed. my therapist is the only health care professional that fully explains the medication and what to expect. and it is not for my lack of asking.

so, maybe im taking a lil bit of offence. but i am a bit sensitive about the subject. Honestly, how many of use know the half life of any medication we use before we take it. this isnt a unique situtation. its actually, and sadly a common problem. Now if i had a dirty tox during my taper, they would have called me right into the doctor, and stopped the process. but because i did well, didnt use for over two years, went to school, and saw a therapist on the regular... i feel through the cracks... Ive noticed that this clinic only pays attention when your doing bad. I sought out every positive service and fought to get it. wither it be VESID, finding my own therapist for substance abuse and other wise, using the work resources, ect.

twp years ago the clinic lost there director due to budget issues... and his position was never filled. the place is being run very poorly and the difference with out the director was very obvious. from the services, to the nurse attitudes, to the open market drug dealing within and out side the doors of the clinic.

anyhow, im very touchy today.... feeling very poorly... and just waiting anxiously for my appointment with doctor tomorrow preying the doctor will do a slow taper from five mg to 1 mg.... prolly shouldnt even be on cause im a fricking basket case.

--- auto merge ---

Im just wondering how one gets on MMT, AND is a member of this community here... Doesn't/Didn't have more of an understanding?

Not to be judgmental or anything like that to the OP... I wouldn't make a huge fuss. I believe that even the patient has a duty to know what one is putting into their own bodies. Just get back to 10mgs, taper more properly, and enjoy your sobriety thereafter.

Good luck dude....

PS. ive been a member on this site since shortly after it started. And back then, the folks had a common kindness and understanding for the members... people didnt find a chance to jump on someone for any little lack understanding or difference in oppinion. Opio use to be a much nicer community then it is now. And its sad to come back, in a time of need, to find that im greeted with a pure lack of empathy. I get, I put it out here, I expect the questions, ect. but seriously, this place was a haven at one time. I really wish you knew it back then. thank you for the well wishes. i do apperciate it. and im not trying to jump on anyone specific... just nostalgic.. and like i said, very hyperviligant

[Flowergirl]

PS. ive been a member on this site since shortly after it started. And back then, the folks had a common kindness and understanding for the members... people didnt find a chance to jump on someone for any little lack understanding or difference in oppinion. Opio use to be a much nicer community then it is now. And its sad to come back, in a time of need, to find that im greeted with a pure lack of empathy. I get, I put it out here, I expect the questions, ect. but seriously, this place was a haven at one time. I really wish you knew it back then. thank you for the well wishes. i do apperciate it. and im not trying to jump on anyone specific... just nostalgic.. and like i said, very hyperviligant

It's almost like you're looking for ways to keep reminding us all this site isn't what it was since you've now mentioned it a few times. It sure is different, and better yet, it's still here! I'm sorry you're not receiving the replies that you are looking for, but really, no one is mistreating you here. For people to take the time to consider your problems, post what appears to be mostly well thought through replies, and then be met with the above probably stings just a bit.

If you're still not seeing the caring attitude, maybe re-read the initial post where you had stopped taking methadone. There was a hell of a of praise and encouragement there.

Good luck to you.

[alowishus]

It's almost like you're looking for ways to keep reminding us all this site isn't what it was since you've now mentioned it a few times. It sure is different, and better yet, it's still here! I'm sorry you're not receiving the replies that you are looking for, but really, no one is mistreating you here. For people to take the time to consider your problems, post what appears to be mostly well thought through replies, and then be met with the above probably stings just a bit.

If you're still not seeing the caring attitude, maybe re-read the initial post where you had stopped taking methadone. There was a hell of a of praise and encouragement there.

Good luck to you.

I think all of us that were here back then have not just once, twice, or three times talked about it, but many times.
I know I did, but see the place for what it is now and what it will not be.... and so I don't bring it up.

BUT if you could have been around in those 1st couple yrs - fucking magic.
Banning was unheard of, there was no need really; there were no trolls and assholes abound, it was all family. You weren't made to feel stupid. I even heard rumors of peeps helping others out when they were sick and didn't ask for anything return.
So I can see someone that hasn't been around since those days going through what I and there's other did and bringing it up.

No offense but I also find it kind of hard to believe [you didn't know]....

I mean that's as much as being called a liar, right? Or at the least and most certainly being called dumb.
I'm not sure it's about not getting the replies one was looking for but about not being kicked when you're down. Or made to feel stupid.
What good or propose can be found from pointing the fact out that you don't believe what someone has told you when it has NO impact on you, she said she didn't know - move on.
Focus on how to help not how to badger the person - maybe that's the lesson she was trying to relate to everyone about the old days...

[reddragon3668]

was afraid this was going to happen. Happened to me at a 5mg jump....hang in there and keep trying. Coming off is possible, but takes a lot of work to do it comfortably. Hope it works out for you!

[Count Zero]

I mean that's as much as being called a liar, right? Or at the least and most certainly being called dumb.
I'm not sure it's about not getting the replies one was looking for but about not being kicked when you're down. Or made to feel stupid.
What good or propose can be found from pointing the fact out that you don't believe what someone has told you when it has NO impact on you, she said she didn't know - move on.
Focus on how to help not how to badger the person - maybe that's the lesson she was trying to relate to everyone about the old days...

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree because that's me you're quoting and IMO what I said bears no resemblence to calling anyone a liar, it certainly wasn't my intention and I'm surprised you took it as such. Do me a favor and tell me how you got from what I wrote to me calling her a liar so I can make sure such a huge difference in interpretation of what I wrote doesn't happen in the future. For the record, I think 98+% of the replies she got were straight out good well thought out replies, solid advice, support, or all 3.

[LorTabitha]

Ive been around for quite a while now and was a "lurker" during the so-called "glory days" of opio. yes, there were great friendships forged and a lot of support for each other. what I also remember however, is how some members (including mods) were just here to scam others out of their drugs and scripted meds. it was a free-for-all for solicitors & scammers. the site has grown in membership quite a bit since then & attracted the attention of trolls, yet more scammers & also of law enforcement. in order to stay around and grow the site had to change and institute rules. for those of you who feel that the "vibe" has changed - PLEASE feel free to bring back the old vibe. be leaders for change instead of just commenting on the change. please don't think I mean that in a bad way - I REALLY dont. Im so glad to see some of the older members coming back and my hope is that opio can become a haven again, but with rules and ways to keep the trolls & scammers at bay.