subutex vs suboxone

[Weezlediesel]

Why does subutex work and suboxone does not I can take subutex 12 hrs after my last shot of dope and not experience any withdrawl symptoms but if I take a suboxone I still feel like suit plus 2 mgs of subutex last twice as long as a suboxone I don't get it

[Boy]

The naloxone in the suboxone maybe

[borohydride]

The funny thing is, naloxones Ki is not lower than buprenorphines... so a damned stupid choice if they did it to stop people spiking them or so on. A French guy I was acquainted with told me that if you shoot suboxone, you feel sick for 5 minutes but then your OK.

Informal discussion inside many UK drug agencies is that they added it to LOOK like they were tackling the problem rather than solving it (those films look like a better option).

[Matt]

Depending on all the factors in place, you will freak out for a few minutes in Precipitated withdrawal but then it goes away and you're fine again.

I haven't had many Subutex come my way but whatever I have done didn't seem to differ any from Suboxone. I'm sure they would be better for injecting since there's no naloxone to interfere with buprenorphines activity although the consensus seems to be that the naloxone isn't strong enough to reverse or block any of the bupe anyway, and you will get PWD either way if you take bupe at the wrong time since bupe has stronger affinity but less activity at receptor sites.

I always hear that people get off more on Subutex than Suboxone so the Narcan has to account for something.

[Dr. McKay]

I can testify to subutex being way better all around !
I have been on both and subutex definatly works better for killing pain and also getting a bit of a glow/buzz from them.

Either taken by sublngual admin or IV subutex is way way better than suboxone.

I personally have never IV'ed suboxone but have Iv'ed subutex many times.

Once you have been on it for a while it really does work well. It is just very hard when you are first switching from a full agonist opiate to bupe.

Also about the naxalone in suboxone..they say taken by mouth it is not active, but only if you IV it will have any effect on you.

so in theory if you were to inject suboxone when you still have any fully aggy opaites in you , it is suppsoed to put you into PWD very quickly, but bupe itself does it own its own, so I really do not see why they even bother putting in suboxone and having 2 different formulas.

It actually costs a lot less from the drug companies to make plain subutex/ buprenorphine , but they charge a lot more for subutex than suboxone.

I think they just charge a lot more for it to try to encourage dos to write scripts for suboxone over subutex .


This is probally the reason why you dont see generic suboxone and only generic subutex since it alot cheaper to produce.

[jibthis]

I believe they affect you the same, at least that is my experience. Sometimes Suboxone would give me a gut ache or head ache and I have never experienced that with subutex but that is the only difference I notice.

McKay I disagree on price of Suboxone vs Subutex. I got my doc to switch me to Subutex for price reasons since I don't have insurance. I was paying like $7/pill for Suboxone at the pharmacy and now that I have switched to Subutex it is less than $3/pill. That is huge savings on my monthly scrip.

[Duckfeet]

Really, with me, I just don't trust the shit...when I 'carefully' opt for subs, it has to be subutex, and always has been. Bad enough making sure I don't get pw's when taking either form of subs to soon...but if I *fix* then it can get me from the subs themselves, but that's all the naloxone in suboxone is there to do, and it only does that if injected...but still, why take the chance?

Suboxone is just a *mean* spirited drug, to me...having that naltroxone floating in my bloodstream, just waiting to put me in a world of hurt if I fix...don't want it around, even if I don't fix...I want my blood to be on my side...

See always: burprenorphene

[Matt]

Bupe treats me very well and I could not break from heroin sans Sub without going crazy. That's why I'm amazed at how people could be junkies like myself in the age before Subs and cellphones.

Subs are a godsend but the one and only con is that goddamned waiting period between heroin and Subs. It fucking sucks but once it's clear there comes a great relief. After the first six days on Sub the biggest challenge is staying away from dope. I have yet to clear that hurdle. I don't know why the first week or two is so easy and then I just always slip. I want to get some Subutex and test it out again to see id they hit me better, all I need is a reinforcing buzz to keep me away from heroin. I get it with Sub but it takes patience and using as little as possible to get there.

[borohydride]

Naloxone is still absorbed sublingually but it's T1/2 is 1-2 hours.

Naloxone is a great precursor but a shitty drug. I hope they make it OTC... because they will soon wonder why oxymorphone powder is appearing on the street ;-)

[Weezlediesel]

I really think the naloxone blocks some effects of the bupe. I have never gotten any relief from subs. Still sick as a dog but on subutex I feel like a million bucks I know its not in my head. There is some major factor contributing to the outcoming effect of these drugs and I'm convinced it is the naloxone because it is the only major difference between these 2 drugs. There is no point in putting naloxone in suboxone people will always find a way to abuse any drug and people still shoot them despite the fact that it could potentially put them into withdrawal. I have shot both and have never expierenced pwd. Only once when I had sublinginally taken a sub to early and I was at w work to one of the worst expierences in my life

[borohydride]

I really think the naloxone blocks some effects of the bupe. I have never gotten any relief from subs. Still sick as a dog but on subutex I feel like a million bucks I know its not in my head. There is some major factor contributing to the outcoming effect of these drugs and I'm convinced it is the naloxone because <b>it is the only major difference between these 2 drugs</b>. There is no point in putting naloxone in suboxone people will always find a way to abuse any drug and people still shoot them despite the fact that it could potentially put them into withdrawal. I have shot both and have never expierenced pwd. Only once when I had sublinginally taken a sub to early and I was at w work to one of the worst expierences in my life

Hard to be certain - the mixture will have to be formulated differently because naloxone forms hydrates...

I would love to see a double-blind study on this - the Ki values may vary with genotype so it blocks for some, not for others...

[Matt]

Subs have such varied outcome from run to run, I'm crossing back over the hump now but it isn't going g as smooth as it has before under the same circumstances. But I guess it's not so bad since my mind isn't racing and longing for a shot like it's mt long lost love, I just have an aching left leg and body temp issues which seem to be getting better.

Life on opiates is hard, but it becomes more apparent when you're kicking dope, waiting for when you can take your first dose of Sub and wondering how and why the fuck you have put yourself in this position. I almost broke down and got more heroin, but it's better to be facing it now so that tomorrow I'll be ok when I would be where I am now had I not taken the plunge today.


Sorry, just a little withdrawal rant. Back on the orange diet for an indefinite period.

[Duckfeet]

Subs have such varied outcome from run to run, I'm crossing back over the hump now but it isn't going g as smooth as it has before under the same circumstances. But I guess it's not so bad since my mind isn't racing and longing for a shot like it's mt long lost love, I just have an aching left leg and body temp issues which seem to be getting better.

Life on opiates is hard, but it becomes more apparent when you're kicking dope, waiting for when you can take your first dose of Sub and wondering how and why the fuck you have put yourself in this position. I almost broke down and got more heroin, but it's better to be facing it now so that tomorrow I'll be ok when I would be where I am now had I not taken the plunge today.


Sorry, just a little withdrawal rant. Back on the orange diet for an indefinite period.

Just got to hang in there a bit...it'll get better. That's the truly hard part of subs, the waiting until u are in fullblown wdrawals before taking dose...but anyway, like you said, 'over the hump' should get to feeling better...

[Dr. McKay]

Naloxone is still absorbed sublingually but it's T1/2 is 1-2 hours.

Naloxone is a great precursor but a shitty drug. I hope they make it OTC... because they will soon wonder why oxymorphone powder is appearing on the street ;-)

Do you really think that oxymorphone powder will end up getting on the street somehow ??

That would be the best thing since Heroin hit the street way back when !

What makes you think this will happen or maybe you have some inside info on this ???

Please tell if you can !

[borohydride]

I posted a 1 step route from naloxone to noroxymorphone. Formadehyde/formate reflux N-methylates to oxymorphone. Yield is a little under 100%.

Naloxone is a GOOD, LEGAL, AVAILABLE precursor.

[Dr. McKay]

Subs have such varied outcome from run to run, I'm crossing back over the hump now but it isn't going g as smooth as it has before under the same circumstances. But I guess it's not so bad since my mind isn't racing and longing for a shot like it's mt long lost love, I just have an aching left leg and body temp issues which seem to be getting better.

Life on opiates is hard, but it becomes more apparent when you're kicking dope, waiting for when you can take your first dose of Sub and wondering how and why the fuck you have put yourself in this position. I almost broke down and got more heroin, but it's better to be facing it now so that tomorrow I'll be ok when I would be where I am now had I not taken the plunge today.


Sorry, just a little withdrawal rant. Back on the orange diet for an indefinite period.

I have heard of some people taking small shots of dope to get them through the frst few days of sub induction to keep the really shitty feelings you go through( the cold /hot flashes, pain, leg craps, runny nose, watery eyes, goose bumps, depression, and all the other stuff I left out that goes along with withdrawal.

I bet if somehow they could make a drug that will take care of these issues during detox there would be a lot more people getting themselves clean.

The reason why so many people are scared to get clean is the fear of going through withdrawals.

After going through it a few times you get to the point to where you just dont want to deal with feeling like that. Plus some peole that either work or go to school just cant afford to take a weeek off so they can go through this .

I know there is no way I can work or go to school when I am sick and in withdrawal.

I have been experimenting with kratom and I have found it to work rather well, but that too is a very strange substance itself.

You take to little and you get a shaky and nervous, you take a goos amount andf you feel pretty damn good, if you take too much you get wasted !

Plus it takes like dirt !!! you must cap them up if you need to take any more than a teaspoon of the stuff !

I have thrown up a couple of time because of the taste !

[Duckfeet]

I have heard of some people taking small shots of dope to get them through the frst few days of sub induction to keep the really shitty feelings you go through( the cold /hot flashes, pain, leg craps, runny nose, watery eyes, goose bumps, depression, and all the other stuff I left out that goes along with withdrawal.

I bet if somehow they could make a drug that will take care of these issues during detox there would be a lot more people getting themselves clean.

The reason why so many people are scared to get clean is the fear of going through withdrawals.

After going through it a few times you get to the point to where you just dont want to deal with feeling like that. Plus some peole that either work or go to school just cant afford to take a weeek off so they can go through this .

I know there is no way I can work or go to school when I am sick and in withdrawal.

I have been experimenting with kratom and I have found it to work rather well, but that too is a very strange substance itself.

You take too little and you get a shaky and nervous, you take a good amount andf you feel pretty damn good, if you take too much you get wasted !

Plus it takes like dirt !!! you must cap them up if you need to take any more than a teaspoon of the stuff !

I have thrown up a couple of time because of the taste !

I read that and laughed...that's actually kind of funny, trying to get the exact right amount or you are fucked...*Whoops!* did a little too much, ha ha...

But earlier in this thread, about the oxymorphone powder...they've got some chemists selling it on Silk Road and people seem to like it...they also sell the liquid compound all cleaned up and shit...I tried the liquid, and didn't feel much, but unless it's bang-up ass kicking heroin, it doesn't break thru the 40mg methadone...anyway, thought that kraton 'instructions' was funny...

[ryan5892]

I see no difference in effect shooting snorting or taking suboxone Vs subutex. I only prefer 'tex because its clear not orange.

[StackBundles]

I have never really had any problem jumping to any form of Bupe when out of dope. I have shot both Texes and Oxones without ever feeling shitty. I obviously wait until I am feeling less than well before I do my Bupe shot though.

I also have never noticed any difference between Subutex or Suboxone, although I prefer the Roxane generic Texes... Weird fucking drug although it has NEVER done wrong by me. I also have kicked Bupe a few times relatively symptom free, after a 2 week taper, so... I dunno'. Seems like the saying YMMV definately is true when it comes to this shit.

[Matt]

I have heard of some people taking small shots of dope to get them through the frst few days of sub induction to keep the really shitty feelings you go through( the cold /hot flashes, pain, leg craps, runny nose, watery eyes, goose bumps, depression, and all the other stuff I left out that goes along with withdrawal.

I bet if somehow they could make a drug that will take care of these issues during detox there would be a lot more people getting themselves clean.

The reason why so many people are scared to get clean is the fear of going through withdrawals.

After going through it a few times you get to the point to where you just dont want to deal with feeling like that. Plus some peole that either work or go to school just cant afford to take a weeek off so they can go through this .

I did a ten-piece last night and while it didn't do much because I had too much bupe already built up, it made me feel a little better but most importantly it helped me to sleep! My sleep schedule goes to hell when I'm off the dope and on bupe, so while I normally can't sleep until the sun comes out last night I nodded off by 12.

Hell, if CLONIDINE was available OTC there'd probably be a higher number of people getting themselves straight because the hot/cold/goosebumps/sweaty-creepy-crawly-skin part of withdrawal really fuckin' makes life suck, not to mention the heavy beating chest which clonidine helps with.

These last few breaks on Sub I'm still pretty much in physical withdrawal for the first two days, but the bupe totally annihilates the mental anxiety and this is another key to being able to withstand withdrawal.


I had a funny thought today: us junkies DO NOT want to pay the price for using, no way no how not willing. Not like we have to unless we're fucking other people over, but still it's funny how we can use for months and years but the flipside of being in withdrawal for a week to a month is not acceptable. All I can say is: thank science for buprenorphine. It may suck during the transitional phase, but it is totally worth it everytime after I can abandon that burden of carrying a heroin addiction, if only for a little while until it finds me again....

[Matt]

Again I've been on a break from H and today is my 6th day of detox on Sub. This is usually as far as I need to go before I can step off so earlier I did my last 1.5mg and the naloxone crept up on me. About five minutes after I did my shot I started sweating and my heartbeat got quick and heavy like if I was going into PWD. This kinda scared me but it was a bit exciting, kinda like how Contemporarium described in the Precipitated Withdrawal thread.
But it's been days since I last did a full-agonist and by then Sub shots are safe to do without having to worry about the nalox, but I guess this one must have messed with the bupe or something because I have never experienced this so late into my Sub detox and I wonder why this would happen.

[Tylercwxzy]

I've always prefered 'tex. Just don't like the idea of having no matter how small amount of naloxone in me unless needed to wake my ass up from an overdose at the hospital. Plus snorting orange powder isn't high on my list anymore, I like plain white Buprenorphine hydrochloride powder/filler.

[mainline]

I see no difference in effect shooting snorting or taking suboxone Vs subutex. I only prefer 'tex because its clear not orange.

Yep. I have never noticed a difference between bupe vs bupe/nalaxone. I use both intravenously. ( I only IV any buprenorphine preperation after a full 72 hours with bupe being the only opioid I've used)

I feel like people overact about the nalaxone. If Bupe gets to the receptors faster and nalaxone isn't strong enough to displace it, then why worry? I wouldn't be able to tell the difference blindfolded.

[pdxninja]

i myself have noticed very little difference between shooting subutex and shooting suboxone strips.very little. but then again ive been stabilized on 1mg bupe for a while. I have found that i can shoot a few points of tar and then do a shot of suboxone 14-16 hours later. i assume this is because i still probably have bupe in my system. i really feel like the amount of naloxone in a 1mg sub shot is pretty inconsequential.

it should be noted that if i do dope at least 2 days in a row i better wait until i start to feel sick before any ingestion of suboxone. or there will be precipitated withdrawals to pay.

[Matt]

If Bupe gets to the receptors faster and nalaxone isn't strong enough to displace it, then why worry? I wouldn't be able to tell the difference blindfolded.

Bupe takes longer to set in than Naloxone does.

i myself have noticed very little difference between shooting subutex and shooting suboxone strips.very little. but then again ive been stabilized on 1mg bupe for a while. I have found that i can shoot a few points of tar and then do a shot of suboxone 14-16 hours later. i assume this is because i still probably have bupe in my system. i really feel like the amount of naloxone in a 1mg sub shot is pretty inconsequential.

it should be noted that if i do dope at least 2 days in a row i better wait until i start to feel sick before any ingestion of suboxone. or there will be precipitated withdrawals to pay.

Little difference here too. But yeah as long as you have bupe built up in your system you can do a shot of dope and then carry on as normal with the bupe after 8-12 hours when the dope has metabolized. After a couple days of dope and no Sub it would be wise to wait at least 24 hours because you might get stung by PWD.

[Azrael]

Good fucking question, my friend. My theory is that the naloxone changes how the bupe works. not that the naloxone is affecting your brain so much as it is affecting how the bupe affects your brain. I was recently on suboxone for a short minute before I was able to get a new subutex script, and without a doubt, subutex works better.

[newParadigm]

I did a ten-piece last night and while it didn't do much because I had too much bupe already built up, it made me feel a little better but most importantly it helped me to sleep! My sleep schedule goes to hell when I'm off the dope and on bupe, so while I normally can't sleep until the sun comes out last night I nodded off by 12.

Hell, if CLONIDINE was available OTC there'd probably be a higher number of people getting themselves straight because the hot/cold/goosebumps/sweaty-creepy-crawly-skin part of withdrawal really fuckin' makes life suck, not to mention the heavy beating chest which clonidine helps with.

These last few breaks on Sub I'm still pretty much in physical withdrawal for the first two days, but the bupe totally annihilates the mental anxiety and this is another key to being able to withstand withdrawal.


I had a funny thought today: us junkies DO NOT want to pay the price for using, no way no how not willing. Not like we have to unless we're fucking other people over, but still it's funny how we can use for months and years but the flipside of being in withdrawal for a week to a month is not acceptable. All I can say is: thank science for buprenorphine. It may suck during the transitional phase, but it is totally worth it everytime after I can abandon that burden of carrying a heroin addiction, if only for a little while until it finds me again....

So true...why can't that monkey just loose our addresses for good?

[The Paregoric Man]

I have used both sublingually and snorted extensively at lower doses of .5-2mg per day and I have noticed no difference, really. I would not be able to tell the difference if not for the flavoring in suboxone.

[newParadigm]

I have used both sublingually and snorted extensively at lower doses of .5-2mg per day and I have noticed no difference, really. I would not be able to tell the difference if not for the flavoring in suboxone.

After everything in this thread (albeit it all very limited anecdotal evidence) it seems that at lower doses the two are indistinguishable, but become differentiable at higher doses.

[Vitor]

After everything in this thread (albeit it all very limited anecdotal evidence) it seems that at lower doses the two are indistinguishable, but become differentiable at higher doses.

In my experience, I used to get frequent headaches with suboxone after becoming stabilised on it. This does not seem to be the case with subutex (I switched a few months ago). Dosing was always in the 2mg range.

So in general, I prefer tex over xone.