bupe and lope?

[strikks]

i was told by a couple members that lope and subs together are a bad idea...but i have no problems i actually feel good from it and i am just asking out there what do you all think? is bupe and lope together safe??

[Larkin]

bupe then lope is OK. IME/O lope has a high binding affinity, but not quite as high as bupe. I HAVE had pwds with lope and bupe, but i also had some OC left in me still. but last time i went from lope to bupe, i had a good 48 - 60 hours between. be careful and start LOW with the bupe.

[hella]

i have no experience with it but i always wondered about it.
my thoughts were always since it doesnt pass the BBB(for the most part) if itd rip the shit off the GI track(or w/e) and lead to some explosive bathroom visits
but it looks like thats not the case lol

[pegasys]

I took a crap ton of lope, enough to get a bit across the BBB i believe, and I was worried about PWD,. after 24 hrs I didnt get that but it took allllll day to feel better instead of a hr or 3 after dosing the subs.

[nutmeg]

ive been wondering this same thing recently. can it cause PAWS?

[Larkin]

ive been wondering this same thing recently. can it cause PAWS?

PAWS is POST Acute Withdrawal syndrome (or symptoms?)

The PWD they refer to is Precipitated WD, which is what you are wondering about

Like i said above, I think lope then bupe can cause precip W/D


Its ALWAYS best to wait 36-48 hours from last dose with long lasting opi's like lope and done, sometimes longer.

The key for me was to always wait until i felt just awful, to the point where PWD could not be much worse than my current state

If you think its ok to take it, wait 12 hours, then take ur sub.

[bkiddo]

I'll give you my experience, which happened pretty recently, but its just one person so take it FWIW. After binging on H for a while, decided that I needed to get off the train again and calm down and get things back together, as they were spiraling rather quickly.

So took my last dose of H on Saturday night at about 11:30 or midnight. A nice sized shot. A few hours later, before going to bed, my girl and I dosed with our initial loading doses of Lope, basically a "shit-ton."

Upon waking Sunday morning, we dosed again withe the Lope and again later that day. Basically all day Sunday, we weren't off the walls with withdrawals, and were comfortable enough all day to just hang around and sleep and not go crazy, but we were perfect and ready to go-type feeling good, if that's understandable.

Anyway, appt with the Sub doctor was Monday morning. I had never had any experience with inducting with Sub while having Lope in my system. Using Lope with success was a relatively recent discovery for us, and both of our previous Sub go-arounds were a few years before, and were quite successful in terms of feeling a ton better within a couple of hours of induction.

Anyway, so did NOT take any lope on Monday morning, and went to doctor's feeling somewhat crappy, but no where near where we would normally be feeling had we not used Lope. I had some concerns about taking the Sub as I wasn't feeling really that bad, but with out schedules and work and everything, we had to get started that day.

Get to doctor, get the script and I induce right in his office with a 2mg Suboxone strip. Basically, I never started feeling better. Just the same quasi-withdrawals that I was experiencing when I woke up that morning. He had me take another 4mg, and just so we could get out of his office and get home, and since we both had years of experience with prior Sub usage, I told him I was feeling better and he sent us on our way.

Got home, and my girl and I both took some Sub, me again and her for the first time that day. She did 4mg and I took another 2mg. We both did it IM. Well, again, I really found no improvement, but no decline either. Just maintained in that not-feeling-so-hot-but-could-feel-worse state of being. My girl tho, about 5 minutes post-injection, I heard her start moaning and yelling out. Sure enough, precipitated withdrawals. And it was not pretty. Fuck that was one of the worst couple of hours of my life.....after the couple of hours she started sleeping a little....and didn't feel better til way way later.

Anyway - so there is a cautionary tale about mixing Lope and Sub....or at least inducing while on Lope. I can't speak to what might occur if both are taken together once someone is actually stabilized on Sub.....again, just an experience. Seemed relevant to share.

[HydroApe]

Very relevant bkiddo! Good post!

[duck]

I should get prescribed suboxone, take a shit ton of Lope, then start my bupe, and then sue for PWDs

[HydroApe]

I should get prescribed suboxone, take a shit ton of Lope, then start my bupe, and then sue for PWDs

You'd get a lot more money if the WD actually killed you.

[scikid]

MF Doom Stealie eh? Never seen that before.

I am a Bupe maintence user, haven't actually used for over a year. If you are getting on bupe for the long term, do not mess around with the dose with anything (assuming you are at the correct dose). Just ride out the first few days, it gets much easier in time.

[Matt]

I am so glad I looked this up first, I almost fucked up and took a dose of lope to "ease" withdrawals until the right time where it would be safe to start subs.

[JuStOnEmOrE?]

I used lope for a couple days during my big kick a few months ago. Then a friend hooked it up with a Subutex.

I took it, and I was vomiting hard core. And the mental signs of wds showed up full force ( the nausea, the dizzyness, etc). It was bad... whoever thinks lope doesn't cross the BBB is FOS.

[Nagelfar]

It was bad... whoever thinks lope doesn't cross the BBB is FOS.

I'm sure intestinal agonism may very well cause all manner of emesis and discomfort in itself.

[Indy]

I'm sure intestinal agonism may very well cause all manner of emesis and discomfort in itself.

Try it for yourself next time you cop an opiate habit. It definitely gets rid of more than just the peripheral symptoms. I know the resources say it doesnt' cross the BBB, but all I can say is try it for yourself. I think it's simply that nobody has ever really done the research on huge doses of lope.

--- auto merge ---

I should get prescribed suboxone, take a shit ton of Lope, then start my bupe, and then sue for PWDs

Class action anybody?

--- auto merge ---

You'd get a lot more money if the WD actually killed you.

Shit, dead people get all the luck.

[Nagelfar]

Try it for yourself next time you cop an opiate habit. It definitely gets rid of more than just the peripheral symptoms. I know the resources say it doesnt' cross the BBB, but all I can say is try it for yourself. I think it's simply that nobody has ever really done the research on huge doses of lope.

I'm not saying it doesn't, but if it didn't, that being true or not doesn't logically suppose the outcome that the other effect must be the same (true or not). Meaning "peripheral" symptoms might not be purely mitigated outside the CNS anymore than "central" are within it.

My understanding is that it did cross, but was actively transported out in a blindingly fast manner; (otherwise, loperamide is neurotoxic as opioids go; i.e. if it did freely enter the brain it would cause great neurotoxicity) so much so as to "effectively" not cross.

[Indy]

Do you have a source for the neurotoxicity? Not calling you a liar or anything, it's just I'm pretty damn sure it crosses the BBB and stays in there because if you take enough you get not only well but high off it.

there's so much conflicting material on loperamide, and so many gaps in "professional" knowledge on it. i honestly think it might be an example of one of those times, where all the professional indexes, encyclopedias, and reference tables just copy each other, so in actuality, there hasn't been much if any REAL research on this chemical.

edit: the REAL test would be to take it with methylnaltrexone. if it DOES only bind in the gut, then the methylnaltrexone will block any withdrawal-relieving effects of lope.

[Nagelfar]

Do you have a source for the neurotoxicity?

http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/32/9/943.full

...effective therapy for diarrheal illnesses (Sherman and Fish, 2000). A likely explanation for the lack of CNS toxicity of loperamide as opposed to MPTP and haloperidol is the well established P-glycoprotein substrate properties of loperamide that restrict brain penetration and prevent bioactivation of this drug in the brain (Mahar Doan et al., 2002; Wandel et al., 2002). This proposal also aids in explaining the absence of central opiate effects of loperamide

It would cause Parkinson's disease by damaging dopamine neurons were it to readily stay within the blood brain barrier for any duration.

[Thanat0s]

edit: the REAL test would be to take it with methylnaltrexone. if it DOES only bind in the gut, then the methylnaltrexone will block any withdrawal-relieving effects of lope.

ok,
YOU FIRST.


then again, i SHOOT or snort nalox daily with my bupe...

[Indy]

ok,
YOU FIRST.


then again, i SHOOT or snort nalox daily with my bupe...

Not trying to be a dick, but do you know what methylnaltrexone is? It only blocks opioids in the gut, it doesn't make you go into CNS withdrawals. And yes I know there are some reports of people experiencing some problems in the CNS with it, but not to the point of it precipitating withdrawal.

Methylnaltrexone is VERY different from naltrexone and naloxone.

--- auto merge ---

http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/32/9/943.full



It would cause Parkinson's disease by damaging dopamine neurons were it to readily stay within the blood brain barrier for any duration.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it also says, "Although this difference can be attributed to loperamide's P-glycoprotein substrate properties that prevent it from accessing the brain, an alternative possibility is that loperamide metabolism in humans is different from that of MPTP and haloperidol and does not involve bioactivation to a neurotoxic pyridinium species" - so it's saying it's possible that loperamide ISN'T neurotoxic. There's no doubt in my mind after experiencing it that loperamide or one of its metabolites crosses the blood-brain-barrier.

[Nagelfar]

There's no doubt in my mind after experiencing it that loperamide or one of its metabolites crosses the blood-brain-barrier.

Why is that? Have you experienced another opioid that "doesn't cross the BBB" to compare it to? My initial point was that a lot of psychological effects that can be ascribed subjectively by a layman to being of direct CNS articulation, may in-fact be peripheral and not need CNS penetration. Just because a mood change is induced doesn't require it to be something unattenuated to the brain. The whole of every body system can lead back to the CNS with a "downstream" effect after all.

[Indy]

Why is that? Have you experienced another opioid that "doesn't cross the BBB" to compare it to? My initial point was that a lot of psychological effects that can be ascribed subjectively by a layman to being of direct CNS articulation, may in-fact be peripheral and not need CNS penetration. Just because a mood change is induced doesn't require it to be something unattenuated to the brain. The whole of every body system can lead back to the CNS with a "downstream" effect after all.

No, simply because a large enough dose of loperamide makes me feel exactly like I feel when I take opioids that DO cross the blood-brain barrier. And it's known that antagonists such as methylnaltrexone that don't cross the BBB do NOT induce full withdrawal on patients dependent on opioids, I think it follows logically that an agonist that didn't cross the BBB would not fully cease withdrawal symptoms. It's way more than just a mood lift caused by relief of GI symptoms. And all I have is the anecdotal evidence of myself and others on here, but again, all I can say is that if you're in opioid withdrawals, and take enough loperamide, you'll know that it's definitely more than just relief of diarrhea and other gut symptoms, it relieves ALL symptoms.

High enough doses of loperamide also cause symptoms that are NOT associated with activation of peripheral (gut, etc.) opioid receptors, such as itchiness, pupil constriction, pain relief, etc. just not QUITE as much as other opioids.

(I really feel like we're having a discussion more than an argument, so I'm going to include something in this post that isn't exactly a fully developed argument, to see if you can see the logic that I'm using)

It's known that methylnaltrexone, an antagonist that doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, when taken by someone who is taking, and dependent on, a full agonist (let's say morphine for convenience), does NOT affect the pupil constriction being caused by the morphine. So why, then, if loperamide does not cross the blood brain barrier, does loperamide cause pupil constriction, if the opioid receptors in the gut do not appear to affect pupil constriction/dilation?

edit: it's also worth mentioning that it's completely possible that loperamide doesn't cross the BBB, but one of it's metabolites does. It does, after all, take a while to relieve withdrawal symptoms fully. This would also explain the lack of neurotoxicity (if in fact loperamide would be neurotoxic after crossing the BBB).

A semi-rhetorical question (just something to think about, if you DO have an answer, feel free to post it) that's also interesting: if loperamide would be neurotoxic, why is it that the polysorbate-80 coated PBCA nanoparticles of loperamide, which are shown to cross the blood brain barrier and exhibit opioid effects, were not reported to be neurotoxic?

[Nagelfar]

It's way more than just a mood lift caused by relief of GI symptoms. ....it's definitely more than just relief of diarrhea and other gut symptoms, it relieves ALL symptoms.

I am not saying the peripheral effects, from agonism of the receptors in the gut, are isolated to functionality in the gut alone. A 'mood lift' from agonism of G-coupled protein receptors generally, not just from "relief of GI symptoms" exclusively, may still be classed as peripheral.

High enough doses of loperamide also cause symptoms that are NOT associated with activation of peripheral (gut, etc.) opioid receptors, such as itchiness, pupil constriction, pain relief, etc. just not QUITE as much as other opioids.

As far as I know, most opioid fully synthetics do not cause histamine release. Though it seems to me from experience that pupil constriction remains even in first stages of sickness; and would be logical to conclude that it is not as readily reversed as induced through certain mechanisms (a la, coming with later withdrawal, etc.)

A semi-rhetorical question (just something to think about, if you DO have an answer, feel free to post it) that's also interesting: if loperamide would be neurotoxic, why is it that the polysorbate-80 coated PBCA nanoparticles of loperamide, which are shown to cross the blood brain barrier and exhibit opioid effects, were not reported to be neurotoxic?

As far as I know, those studies with PEGylated polybutylcyanoacrylate nanoparticles weren't looking at DA toxicity, but studies with animals who have incomplete BBB did show such toxicity from loperamide.

[Larkin]

hey indy! Washing poppy seeds is a waste of time and you get ZERO alkaloids!

loperamide will effect everyone differently of course. depending on your pgp, metabolism, yada yada

BUT. some DEFINITELY crosses the BBB. Anyone who has taken enough can vouch.

Have you taken it in high doses nagelfar? Cause it seems its always people that have NOT taken it in high doses that argue the point of it not crossing the BBB at all.

sure at recommended doses enough doesnt cross to show effects. But i personally have gotten fucked up from loperamide when i had no tolerance. It is not very enjoyable, lots of itching and pinned pupils, double vision, super dry mouth.

When i take maintenance doses, if i am in full WD before i take it, my pupils will be SAUCERS, but after the lope has taken hold, usually about 2 hours later. My pupils are back down to normal and I am not dreading leaving my bed. But im sure thats all just a placebo from not having shit run down my leg amirite?

as far as the neurotoxicity. thats been talked about and its the LPP+ which is a metabolite of lope, not lope itself. not saying that makes it ok, but so far i havent noticed any permanent damage, but so far i havent noticed any permanent damage, so far i havent noticed any permanent damage. :wink:

as far as bupe goes. I notice when i maintain on bupe as opposed to lope. I shit multiple times a day, half the time partially undigested stuff. As in, I'll eat broccoli for lunch and shit it out before i goto bed. Sorry ladies gents and junkies for the details but i must be thorough!

So yeah lope has a death grip on my GI, can be fixed by high fiber diet, lots of water and a cup of coffee in the am to kick start things. And personally i dont think its any worse (might be less extreme) than morphine. That shit is bonkers on the ol' gut

as far as methylnaltrexone. I dont want any part of it while i am physically dependent. It doesnt cross the BBB? yeah neither does lope remember?

[Indy]

I am not saying the peripheral effects, from agonism of the receptors in the gut, are isolated to functionality in the gut alone. A 'mood lift' from agonism of G-coupled protein receptors generally, not just from "relief of GI symptoms" exclusively, may still be classed as peripheral.



As far as I know, most opioid fully synthetics do not cause histamine release. Though it seems to me from experience that pupil constriction remains even in first stages of sickness; and would be logical to conclude that it is not as readily reversed as induced through certain mechanisms (a la, coming with later withdrawal, etc.)



As far as I know, those studies with PEGylated polybutylcyanoacrylate nanoparticles weren't looking at DA toxicity, but studies with animals who have incomplete BBB did show such toxicity from loperamide.

Every opioid I've ever taken has caused some itchiness in a high enough dose, but that might be just for me. edit: if you google it, even on here, plenty of people get itchy on methadone....i just took some xanax and i'm a bit slow but methadone isn't semi-synthetic is it? i believe it's fully synthetic. heh, maybe the lope is eating my brain and that's why i can't think, lol.

But the part about pupil constriction, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. I'm talking about full-blown withdrawal, and pupil constriction does NOT last through withdrawal, not for me in any way shape or form. I'm talking about, I'm in FULL BLOWN 100% withdrawal, pupils are like saucers, then I start taking huge doses of loperamide and my pupils shrink right up. There's no way that's caused by opioid receptors in the gut.

edit: about the neurotoxicity, I'm just incredibly skeptical all around of that, because I've taken huge doses of lope for months at a time, and there are accounts on here of people taking 100+ mgs daily for YEARS, without any permanent neurotoxicity or parkinsonian symptoms, so it just doesn't add up for me. Is it possible? definitely, but for me personally, i don't buy it. i think the mainstream scientific research that's been done on loperamide is lacking at best, and possibly downright botched since it's seen as so esoteric and irrelevant by most serious researchers.

[Nagelfar]

Well, like I said to begin with, what something is functionally is different than the specifics. It is 'actively transported', that is, pumped out of the brain, like the ebbing of a shoreline.

Apparently LPP+ doesn't leave the brain once entered though, due to its permanent charge, (the alcohol turned to a tetrahydropyridine) so I'd rather be hopeful that loperamide "didn't" cross the BBB. Long term heavy use is more on par with older neuroleptics; risk of tardive dyskinesia and such.

I'm talking about full-blown withdrawal

I was talking about synergistic effects, inter-BBB agonism versus extra-BBB antagonism, etc., which "full-blown withdrawal" wouldn't be the proper model for, rather, more of the beginning stages of withdrawal would be.

[Indy]

Well in that case, there's no sense in me worrying about it now - I've taken such massive quantities of lope for long enough that if it is neurotoxic I'm 100% fucked anyway.

I'm sorry if this is a low blow, but i have to tackle the elephant in the room....isn't it a bit strange for you to be so concerned about neurotoxicity and huff gasoline?

[Larkin]

[Nagelfar]

I'm sorry if this is a low blow, but i have to tackle the elephant in the room....isn't it a bit strange for you to be so concerned about neurotoxicity and huff gasoline?

Concerned is a relative term. "Specializing in", can be a form of concern too.

[Indy]

Concerned is a relative term. "Specializing in", can be a form of concern too.

LOL, repped, that's actually really clever.