Hydromorphone (nasal or rectal) vs Oxymorphone (nasal)

[Oxymorph]

My next clinic appointment is coming up soon, and I'm going to try and swap out my oxycodone 15mgs for either hydromorphone (IR 8mg) or oxymorphone (IR 10mg). There probably have been several 'oxymorphone vs hydromorphone' threads before, but they all seem to be IV and I can't find any that focus on comparing them via the nasal/rectal routes for those who don't shoot. I have done OC, HC, OM, dope, morphine, but NOT fent or HM.

To preface, 1st-hand AND 2nd-hand experimentation confirms that Oxymorphone is more efficient recreationally when snorted compared to rectal, so let's assume the oxymorphone (IR) is snorted.

Unlike the former, for hydromorphone it seems that there is almost an equal abundance of reports that prefer nasal as ones that prefer rectal. So, rectal and/or nasal hydromorphone can be compared to only nasal oxymorphone.

So the main thing I'm looking for is comparison of the feeling/vibe of the highs. It's hard to accurately depict a subjective feeling, but with descriptive words and metaphors you can get the points across. Assume equally-potent doses of each.

[For example, I'll do oxymorphone vs oxycodone to show the format I'd like to see. OC feels more speedy, while OM feels more sedating. OC feels more lucid/alert, while OM feels more dreamy/noddy. They seem to feel equally as 'clean' (unlike morphine which feels real dirty and raw). OM has a mental security blanket that destroys all worries/anxiety, while OC lacks this and can actually be stimulating and anxiety provoking at times. The OC body high is light, with tingling pleasure waves emanating from mainly the arms and legs, while the OM body high is heavy, with tingling pleasure waves running up and down the spine.]

Try to be as specific as possible. Note the dose, ROA, and tolerance level.

[SeVeN]

Hmmm Is it really better snorted than plugged?? Ive never plugged opanas suprisingly but i find that odd, unless it has to do witht he whole gelling up deal for the ER's.

I know this isnt as detailed as you like but lets see. Dilaudid: Snorted Vs Rectal. Snorted feels like nothing, rectal feels pretty damn good as 24- 32 mgs plugged. (dunno about the reports saying its as good snorted as rectal Its not)

Since your choice is both IR Id say go witht he Opanas. Better in so many ways especially if you sniff. Id rather shoot the Opanas as well as they have a great rush, with my tolerance i could split the pill to two shots (prob wouldnt but meh) and they last longer.

also if you do wish to plug the IRs are so easy to abuse,

Good luck to you with your scripting.

[lespaulpower]

[For example, I'll do oxymorphone vs oxycodone to show the format I'd like to see. OC feels more speedy, while OM feels more sedating. OC feels more lucid/alert, while OM feels more dreamy/noddy. They seem to feel equally as 'clean' (unlike morphine which feels real dirty and raw). OM has a mental security blanket that destroys all worries/anxiety, while OC lacks this and can actually be stimulating and anxiety provoking at times. The OC body high is light, with tingling pleasure waves emanating from mainly the arms and legs, while the OM body high is heavy, with tingling pleasure waves running up and down the spine.]

You're an opiate connoisseur if I've ever met one The way you describe that O-morphone makes me salivate in lust & anticipation. CHRIST

I've not had the privilege of the 'Big-O' by any route, but from what I hear intranasal is the way to go if you're not into needles.

I'm surprised to hear anyone who prefers rectal hydromorphone to intranasal btw. The b/a for both HM and OM by the nasal route is similar, but the high ratio of filler to active opioid fucks the absorbtion - I assume alot of an intranasal dose is absorbed in the gut via the drip, leading to a lower actual b/a than the pure compound alone would have (must be at least a 30-fold greater ratio of binder/filler than active material) Still, nasal h-morphone would be my second choice ROA after IV.

LPP

[SeVeN]

yeh IV is the way to go. I still cant believe anyone would say nasal is better than plugging. HAve either of you actually plugged it before?

[Jonas McFeely]

Intranasal Hydromorphone is completely and utterly pointless unless you have nil opiate tolerance. It's almost insulting to the drug itself to do it any other way than IV. Sniffing and shooting HM aren't even on the same planet as eachother. Stick to your Oxycodone or Oxymorphone. You'd be wasting your time with Hydromorphone unless you take the plunge and say hello to Mr. Needle.

[opiophanatic]

Intranasal Hydromorphone is completely and utterly pointless unless you have nil opiate tolerance. It's almost insulting to the drug itself to do it any other way than IV. Sniffing and shooting HM aren't even on the same planet as eachother. Stick to your Oxycodone or Oxymorphone. You'd be wasting your time with Hydromorphone unless you take the plunge and say hello to Mr. Needle.

agreed. snorted hydromorph is such a waste. i'd rather eat norcos. if you're stickin' to sniffin' you should go for the oxyM or stick with your oxyC. hydroM is definitely not the way to go. plus the half life sucks, you don't want it if you're only on one med. hydromorphone is better as a breakthrough pain killer IMO.

oxyM for the sniffly snorters...

[Oxymorph]

So it's completely useless when snorted. I feel satisfied from just 17mg of oxycodone. Still the case? How about plugged, no one has commented on this.

I'm craving that really dreamy nod similar to opana, but don't want to deal with the horrendous opana w/ds, hence considering hydromorphone. If you plug the HM, can you achieve a similar heavy nod?

[opiophanatic]

So it's completely useless when snorted. I feel satisfied from just 17mg of oxycodone. Still the case? How about plugged, no one has commented on this.

I'm craving that really dreamy nod similar to opana, but don't want to deal with the horrendous opana w/ds, hence considering hydromorphone. If you plug the HM, can you achieve a similar heavy nod?

i have plugged HM. nothing to write home about. you can get a nod from high doses, but because of the half-life it's just short lived.

your reasoning for trying to go for HM rather than oxyM just doesn't ring true. super high = super suck WD. get the high you already know you love from the opana, get some lope when you run out...

like the old guys say, "no free lunch."

[Dilauday]

Since you are currently receiving 15mg oxycodone IR, if you are looking to replace that with OM or HM without a dose increase I highly doubt you will be getting 10mg OM IR or 8mg HM IR, more like 4mg HM IR. Im not sure if they make 5mg OM IR or not but that would be more appropriate. If you are looking for a dose increase than what you say is about twice what you are currently receiving. The doctor, if he knows anything, might be skeptical about switching you from OC to OM since it is a much more potent narcotic, but ya never know.

I have never had the luck to try OM, since we do not currently have it available in Canada, however I have much experience with morphine, oxycodone and hydromorphone. I'm not sure what you mean by morphine feels "dirty" if you are refering to the soft warm blanket that envelopes your chest, or the buzzing pin feeling reverberating up from your legs to your heart. Nothing dirty about that feeling IMO.

I much much prefer HM over OC, for the type of pain that I have HM works leaps and bounds better than OC (skeletal, muscle and nerve pain) I am sure some would say otherwise. I really feel it greatly depends on what one has been taking more regularly, and even more what one started taking, and continued taking for a substantial amount of time.

I know many people will say HM nasally does nothing! This is simply not the case for everyone guys! I think it might have to do with if you have a giant italian nose or a petite french shnazz , joking aside, most, not all, but most of you that claim HM nasally does thing are IV users, or have used IV at some point in time. nasal HM is not just for the opiate naive person, however an opiate naive person deff gets a real kick in the butt when sniffing even 4mg of HM! I am quite opiate tolerant, however I do not use IV, but for example I find 24-32mg of HM much better than 80-100mg of OC insulffated. Although 80-100mg of OC is stronger IMO when crushed and eaten (we still get the good OG OC here remember). With OC in general you get more euphoria than with HM, it is just the nature of the beast, IMO the feeling from OC is the "dirtiest" if you want to use that word. HM when not administered via IV is a somewhat subtle beast, but a beast none the less. It can cause serious nodding and an amazing feeling of well being unrivaled by most (again never tried OM). When you are in the "know" to the subtle nature of HM and can feel all the uplifting effects it has to offer, it's hard to desire anything else. Again it works better than any other for my pain and leaves me fully fully functional during the day, gives me the most energy out of all of them, the desire to strive and get things done, oh yes get things done real good. It is more a state of mind more than a high when not shooting it. This is for someone who uses everyday and has a high tolerance to opiates, not the naive would be deffinately get a real nice high from it, even orally at 8-16mg orally for an opiate naive person would give them a serious glow.

Oxymorph: I do not know if you ever plan to use via IV, I mean not everyone plans that, but still, I would suggest getting HM 8mg but only because I haven't had the chance to try OM, I may choose that instead if I have. Regardless if your doctor does decide to actually increase your dose and give you OM or HM over OC, you will be happy I'm sure. Rectal HM does deff give a real nice glow, all depending on your tolerance. My usual dose for HM is around 28mg, 3 and a half 8mg pills, I will also do 3 or 4 at times. If I take 24mg rectally it is deff more than even 32mg nasally, but being on regular opiates means I am not always (flushed) down there if ya get my drift and nasally if better IMO than oral HM, nasal HM does work and works well. I am sure if I started to IV I could take like 16mg and get higher than 32mg nasally, obviously, but it wouldn't last as long, my tolerance would sky rocket and before long I would be burning through even more than 80-100mg a day which I am currently taking and perscribed. I do not wish to unleash the tail end of that beast and work hard to keep my dose consistant between 3-4 doses per day. As in the beginning if I took more, sure I would get higher, but then I would require that much more just to maintain, it's exponential and just not sustainable.

Good luck!

[eukodalic]

Dilauday-- well-reasoned and thoughtful post above ^^^. Some of my own experience with HM (in a variety of ROA's) mirrors your own description. Especially calling notice to the "subtle nature" of hydromorphone...that's accurate IMO also. I get the 8s prescribed as part of a two-drug therapy for CP; have also had OM in the 10 mg IR formulation. I had to go off those due to poor insurance; OM is wildly expensive at the retail level in my area. Also just about any "ER" form is pretty expensive too of any pain med. There is a difference between makers of the various HM's- I have been trying (w/o success) to get the Lanett's. But the old school Mally white triangle 8's are what a lot of us end up with, that is, those of us lucky enough to get HM scripts at all! There is still a bit of "stigma" hanging on to this old school painkiller in the minds of some docs...but it doesn't get splashed on the front pages like OC does...

Another added benefit is the drug (HM) seems to go easy on my liver/kidneys; compared to the combo meds like Vikes, Norcos which (due to the APAP) skyrocketed my liver tests into high gear. But I can respect all those who say HM isn't very effective insufflated or oral; I'm just lucky my receptors are sensitive to HM and I do get that beautiful subtle and clean effect from them, without fail. As Dilauday calls it- a state of mind. And I'm 8-plus years in with pain mgmt, and have kept the tolerance demon at bay. I have other tricks to keep the effectiveness up, but that's for another post~
Hope this helps!

euko~~

[corlene]

Get the Opana, you'll be utterly disappointed with Dilaudid if you arent shooting it.

I would convince this doctor your seeing to get you on the opana patient assistance program for ER meds, and keep the oxy for breakthrough, getting them upped to the 30s for breakthrough, telling him the current regiment isnt working so well. After all your goin to the 9 5 4, and already have the foot in the door. Then explaining you'd also like to try the dilaudid for breakthrough and see if it works better than the oxy.

Sounds far fetched but these doctors will write as long as your willing to pay. Getcha hustle on my friend.

[Dilauday]

ER meds really are expensive, even in Canada with our coverage, depending how much money you make you still have to pay a percentage of the cost (if you are on welfare or disability, or below a certain amount you pay nothing, and nothing for health care) but for example hydromorph-contin and oxycontin monthly perscriptions can be in the thousands, leaving us paying a few hundred easy for such a perscription. I know this is nothing compared to the states but it's still a lot! Compared to most IR meds, dilaudid specifically, being only around 100 bux a month on average, meaning we pay about 20-40 bux.

Do the lannet or mally pills have their own brand name or are they considered "generics" since purdue bought the name dilaudid. In Canada AFAIK we only have two choices, PMS generic hydromorph's or purdue brand name dilaudid. the PMS ones are made by pharmascience I believe. Have you tried the purdue one's to compare to the lannet or mallies? if so do you find any difference at all between the mally and purdue brand IR HMs? I much.....much prefer the purdue brand to the PMS, they actually feel different. In a way the PMS produce a little stronger effect, but they make me feel.....uh, a little grimey? I dunno it's hard to explain, sure they are suppose to be identical, either the buff they use or remnants from the synthesis or maybe a different procedure they use, I'm not sure, but the purdue are the best IMO.

I have been on HM exclusively for a little over 5 years, it takes some strength but you can maintain yourself very happily on only HM. I can at times go 15-16hrs between dosing, meaning my last dose at 9pm for example and I always try to wait until noon to take my first dose of the day. Again I take around 100mg a day and have for years, my tolerance is not small. I can easily take 320-400mg of oxy orally within a day, and I'm not "wrecked" or anything like that at the end of the day, I feel OK but not as OK as 100mg of HM nasally throughout the day.

I enjoy immensly the effect I receive from my dose and ROA and wouldn't want to ruin it or make it so that I am no longer satisfied from such. It helps more than anything else I've tried for my pain, day in and day out it still helps, everytime. Sure I don't nod out every night like I used to years ago, but more often than not I still slip into a blissful state and nod off to sleep. There is much more to it than just that though, maintaining on such a substance commands respect, if not, you will be very sick very quickly and end up not being able to keep life goals going. Maintaining on HM alone is possible and for me is the best choice possible, you have to take a step back and look at yourself from time to time and for many it might not be possible, but that is for each person to determine.

Dilauday-- well-reasoned and thoughtful post above ^^^. Some of my own experience with HM (in a variety of ROA's) mirrors your own description. Especially calling notice to the "subtle nature" of hydromorphone...that's accurate IMO also. I get the 8s prescribed as part of a two-drug therapy for CP; have also had OM in the 10 mg IR formulation. I had to go off those due to poor insurance; OM is wildly expensive at the retail level in my area. Also just about any "ER" form is pretty expensive too of any pain med. There is a difference between makers of the various HM's- I have been trying (w/o success) to get the Lanett's. But the old school Mally white triangle 8's are what a lot of us end up with, that is, those of us lucky enough to get HM scripts at all! There is still a bit of "stigma" hanging on to this old school painkiller in the minds of some docs...but it doesn't get splashed on the front pages like OC does...

Another added benefit is the drug (HM) seems to go easy on my liver/kidneys; compared to the combo meds like Vikes, Norcos which (due to the APAP) skyrocketed my liver tests into high gear. But I can respect all those who say HM isn't very effective insufflated or oral; I'm just lucky my receptors are sensitive to HM and I do get that beautiful subtle and clean effect from them, without fail. As Dilauday calls it- a state of mind. And I'm 8-plus years in with pain mgmt, and have kept the tolerance demon at bay. I have other tricks to keep the effectiveness up, but that's for another post~
Hope this helps!

euko~~

[Oxymorph]

Get the Opana, you'll be utterly disappointed with Dilaudid if you arent shooting it.

I'm currently on roxi 30s for chronic pain, and 15s for breakthrough. Hopefully I can convince my doc that the 15s aren't cutting it for BT pain, and that increasing my dose wouldn't make sense because I'm already on 30s, so I'd like to try a different med altogether.

I do realize that opana is going to be a lot more recreational than dilaudid. However there are SEVERAL reasons I am not trying to get it.

1. Opana is extremely expensive. I'm uninsured and paying cash, have already gotten quotes, and even at walgreens (the cheapest pharmacy) both Opana IR and ER are too much to afford. This is probably because of the name-brand monopoly (the only generic--Roxanne--I've read are rock hard and a pain in the ass to abuse). Dilaudids (especially generic) are dirt cheap. Generic 8mg dillies cost only around $2-3 a pop, that's less than even roxi 15s !!

2. As already mentioned, the horrible Opana withdrawal trumps the lovely nods that I'm seeking. It's been established in another thread that dilly withdrawals are virtually non-existent compared to opana, so long as you're not IVing every 2 hours.

3. I know someone who gets Opana 40s but prefers roxis. I can easily trade my roxis for them whenever I want Opana, but in 5 years have never seen a dilaudid or even heard of it being available in my area.

So, this is the logic behind my bias in favor of trying hydromorphone. Now, regarding it's recreational use: is it simply that hydromorphone will be dissapointing AT ANY DOSE, or if I take enough of it can I acheive an opana-like nod? Keep in mind because I will get large script and don't take opiates daily, the number of pills I can take on a recreational day is NO OBJECT at all.

Ultimately I'm asking: is recreational hydromorphone a problem because of the dose required to get a euphoric nod, or is it similar to codeine in that no matter how much you take you cannot reach the euphoria level of oxy/opana unless IV'd (not an option for me)? The former I can work with as mentioned.

[opiophanatic]

I'm currently on roxi 30s for chronic pain, and 15s for breakthrough. Hopefully I can convince my doc that the 15s aren't cutting it for BT pain, and that increasing my dose wouldn't make sense because I'm already on 30s, so I'd like to try a different med altogether.

I do realize that opana is going to be a lot more recreational than dilaudid. However there are SEVERAL reasons I am not trying to get it.

1. Opana is extremely expensive. I'm uninsured and paying cash, have already gotten quotes, and even at walgreens (the cheapest pharmacy) both Opana IR and ER are too much to afford. This is probably because of the name-brand monopoly (the only generic--Roxanne--I've read are rock hard and a pain in the ass to abuse). Dilaudids (especially generic) are dirt cheap. Generic 8mg dillies cost only around $2-3 a pop, that's less than even roxi 15s !!

2. As already mentioned, the horrible Opana withdrawal trumps the lovely nods that I'm seeking. It's been established in another thread that dilly withdrawals are virtually non-existent compared to opana, so long as you're not IVing every 2 hours.

3. I know someone who gets Opana 40s but prefers roxis. I can easily trade my roxis for them whenever I want Opana, but in 5 years have never seen a dilaudid or even heard of it being available in my area.

So, this is the logic behind my bias in favor of trying hydromorphone. Now, regarding it's recreational use: is it simply that hydromorphone will be dissapointing AT ANY DOSE, or if I take enough of it can I acheive an opana-like nod? Keep in mind because I will get large script and don't take opiates daily, the number of pills I can take on a recreational day is NO OBJECT at all.

Ultimately I'm asking: is recreational hydromorphone a problem because of the dose required to get a euphoric nod, or is it similar to codeine in that no matter how much you take you cannot reach the euphoria level of oxy/opana unless IV'd (not an option for me)? The former I can work with as mentioned.

doesn't sound like the high is even of concern at this point. you can't afford the oxyM. game over. having the same med for BT as for chronic is fucking retarded. you doc is a tard so just ask for the dillies... snort em. plug em. see what you like. if you don't like em ask for your oxy back in a couple months.

why even continue to ask if you've already answered the question yourself?

[lajeunemartyre]

Oxycodone and Hydromorphone are very different in effects using the same ROAs. When insufflated, Oxycodone has a delayed rush. Dilaudid does not. Just like when Dilaudid is IVed, it has a great rush, but when oxycodone is IVed it just has a quick onset and no actual rush. What you may like better about Dilaudid is that is it has a much better duration. Using Oxycodone via any ROA, one is on the comedown within three hours. What also to consider is do you prefer the speedy, compulsive high acquired from Oxycodone, or do you prefer a more relaxed, sedated high like Hydromorphone produces?

[Dilauday]

x2

having 15mg for "BT" and 30mg for chronic pain makes absolutely NO sense, dunno what the doc is thinking, honestly lol

but you have pretty much already decided you CANT get opana so it doesn't seem to really matter the difference between them since you can only get dilaudid due to the cost.

you seem to think the withdrawl from HM is non-existant, this is totally NOT true, nothing of the sort has been established. The withdrawl from hydromorphone is shorter in duration than morphine, oxycodone etc, but instead is actually much more intense as it is condensed and VERY intense, even if you only snort or take orally, trust someone who has taken it daily for years.

you CAN and WILL get a euphoric nod from HM, especially if you are gonna be taking whatever it is, depending on your tolerance and pure sensativity, that is requried to achieve such an effect. It is a VERY powerful substance, even when not via IV use, since you seem to have a lowerish tolerance, it will work. I am not sure if you are taking your meds everyday and thus are dependent at this point or not, if you are not you will deff get a much stronger effect than if you are already taking oxy everyday, again not sure the mg per day you are receiving.

$2-3 dollars a pop, your cost for your own perscription, I seriously don't know how any of you americans afford your damn perscriptions, it's like only the rich people or well off who have insurance can get their meds, and then dont' pay anything anyway, and the less fortunate have to pay out their ASS, like serious out their ASS

Get the HM, since that is what you were gonna get anyway, enjoy it, you will!

BTW I was just nodded out for about the last hour from HM and haven't taken all my doses yet, very nice, very powerful, pure as it gets!

[opiophanatic]

Oxycodone and Hydromorphone are very different in effects using the same ROAs. When insufflated, Oxycodone has a delayed rush. Dilaudid does not. Just like when Dilaudid is IVed, it has a great rush, but when oxycodone is IVed it just has a quick onset and no actual rush. What you may like better about Dilaudid is that is it has a much better duration. Using Oxycodone via any ROA, one is on the comedown within three hours. What also to consider is do you prefer the speedy, compulsive high acquired from Oxycodone, or do you prefer a more relaxed, sedated high like Hydromorphone produces?

this is just wrong. the high from oxyC lasts longer than that of hydromorphone. drugs are different for everyone, i know, but from both experience and science, the oxy high lasts longer. i don't know where you got that info, but i would try to forget it if i were you..

[Dilauday]

sorry for some reason I can't seem to edit my above post, I was agreeing with you opiophanatic about the 15s and 30s being perscribed not lajeunematrye

I also agree with your more recent post, HM is a very short-acting opiate compared to similar compounds such as oxy, morphine etc. Would like to also add, as stated before, although HM does not have the same "speedy" type feeling oxy can produce, it deffinately can provide with a substantial amount of energy (as opiates can in general when one is dependent), I find it gives much more energy than say morphine, and for me even more than oxy. All opiates are sedating, that is what they do.

[ryan5892]

1. Opana is extremely expensive. I'm uninsured and paying cash, have already gotten quotes, and even at walgreens (the cheapest pharmacy) both Opana IR and ER are too much to afford. This is probably because of the name-brand monopoly (the only generic--Roxanne--I've read are rock hard and a pain in the ass to abuse). Dilaudids (especially generic) are dirt cheap. Generic 8mg dillies cost only around $2-3 a pop, that's less than even roxi 15s !!

The generic 10mg IR opana is fine for a snorter.

[Oxymorph]

What also to consider is do you prefer the speedy, compulsive high acquired from Oxycodone, or do you prefer a more relaxed, sedated high like Hydromorphone produces?

I hate the speedy effect of oxycodone. Everytime I do oxy, I get mild anxiety and end up having unproductive thought loops about what I should do next around the house with the energy I now have. I almost always end up having to supplement the oxy buzz with a nice line of Opana just to calm down and chill, nod out. If not, then a benzo like k-pin or xanax is usually added. I love that heavy, all-worries-destroyed sedation by oxymorphone, and I'm assuming the hydro sedation is similar. I find this high to be more productive because my thoughts slow down and I can make decisions easily.

x2

you seem to think the withdrawl from HM is non-existant, this is totally NOT true, nothing of the sort has been established. The withdrawl from hydromorphone is shorter in duration than morphine, oxycodone etc, but instead is actually much more intense as it is condensed and VERY intense, even if you only snort or take orally, trust someone who has taken it daily for years.

I'm not saying that objectively HM has miniscule w/d, keep in mind I said *COMPARED to Opana*. I don't even need to have had experience with HM to know that Opana w/d is worse, this is based mainly on forum posts by seasoned opiate users. Hell, many people say it's the #1 worst w/d of all common opiates, even worse than fentanyl because of the long duration. I'm not even dependent (twice-per-week use) and I can feel Opana w/d very obviously, but not from any other opiate (oxy, dope, morphine).

[Jonas McFeely]

this is just wrong. the high from oxyC lasts longer than that of hydromorphone. drugs are different for everyone, i know, but from both experience and science, the oxy high lasts longer. i don't know where you got that info, but i would try to forget it if i were you..

I strongly disagree with this statement. I can bang 90mg of Oxycodone and be high for AT MOST 30 minutes. I can bang 8mg of Hydromorphone and after the rush is over, have a nice sedate glow/high for an hour or so. One of the reasons I'm beginning to loathe oxy and praise HM.

But I suppose everyone is different.

[opiophanatic]

I strongly disagree with this statement. I can bang 90mg of Oxycodone and be high for AT MOST 30 minutes. I can bang 8mg of Hydromorphone and after the rush is over, have a nice sedate glow/high for an hour or so. One of the reasons I'm beginning to loathe oxy and praise HM.

But I suppose everyone is different.

sounds crazy but EAT the oxy... then report back

[Dilauday]

since you have never had a dependancy before and only take it a few times a week, you are not feeling w/d from opana but more a "hang over" type feeling from OM being such a potent narcotic. you don't even want to know what w/d is all about. regardless of how much worse OM withdrawl is from oxy, HM, morphine etc, your not dependant and are not going to get w/d from OM from only a few times a week since you don't go into w/d at all, people who have had problems before can be sent into a partial w/d or experience its effects much quicker in some cases from only a few days of use, but that is not what you are experiencing.

I understood you are saying the WD are worse from opana than HM, but the way you said it is just wrong, saying "virtually non-existant"....please, you don't wanna find out!

I hate the speedy effect of oxycodone. Everytime I do oxy, I get mild anxiety and end up having unproductive thought loops about what I should do next around the house with the energy I now have. I almost always end up having to supplement the oxy buzz with a nice line of Opana just to calm down and chill, nod out. If not, then a benzo like k-pin or xanax is usually added. I love that heavy, all-worries-destroyed sedation by oxymorphone, and I'm assuming the hydro sedation is similar. I find this high to be more productive because my thoughts slow down and I can make decisions easily.



I'm not saying that objectively HM has miniscule w/d, keep in mind I said *COMPARED to Opana*. I don't even need to have had experience with HM to know that Opana w/d is worse, this is based mainly on forum posts by seasoned opiate users. Hell, many people say it's the #1 worst w/d of all common opiates, even worse than fentanyl because of the long duration. I'm not even dependent (twice-per-week use) and I can feel Opana w/d very obviously, but not from any other opiate (oxy, dope, morphine).

[Oxymorph]

sounds crazy but EAT the oxy... then report back

VERY wise words :-) I've tried snorting, plugging, and eating, and I discovered that eating oxy produced the strongest, most pleasurable high without having to compromise with short duration. Sure IV will feel better, but the long duration of eating it makes up for it I guess. I think what also distinguishes oral oxy from the other ROAs, is that when swallowed, the oxy has more time and more opportunity to metabolize into oxymorphone (= more sedating, warm high).

since you have never had a dependancy before and only take it a few times a week, you are not feeling w/d from opana but more a "hang over" type feeling from OM being such a potent narcotic. you don't even want to know what w/d is all about. regardless of how much worse OM withdrawl is from oxy, HM, morphine etc, your not dependant and are not going to get w/d from OM from only a few times a week since you don't go into w/d at all, people who have had problems before can be sent into a partial w/d or experience its effects much quicker in some cases from only a few days of use, but that is not what you are experiencing.

I understood you are saying the WD are worse from opana than HM, but the way you said it is just wrong, saying "virtually non-existant"....please, you don't wanna find out!

If I had to speculate, I'd say the reason I experience this is because I re-dose MANY times on the days I get high. Even though I use 2x per week, each of those days I dose again, and again, and again, in attempt to chase the nod. When it's all said and done I had been snorting 5mg bumps every hour for 6-10 hours. Then the next day I feel like shit starting as soon as I wake.

When we're talking about opiates, then (mild) withdrawal is the same thing as a hangover in regards to moderate use. I agree that what I'm experiencing is NOT full-blown withdrawal, however, it is still noticeable enough to make me extremely depressed, headache, and a cold shiver through my spine. This actually substantially hurts my job performance and enjoyment of life, and worst of all makes me sleep for 12-14 hours. I guess you could call it "mini-withdrawal," but mini Opana withdrawal is probably equal to complete oxycodone withdrawal I'd imagine. I think to myself, if I feel this way coming of of 10mg of Opana, I cringe to imagine what a 40mg + daily IV user feels coming off of it (worse than your worst nightmare I suppose).

[Dilauday]

No..........It's really not. What you are experiencing cannot truly even be considered "withdrawal". Sure you could use the term withdrawal to say you are dealing with the effects the drug had on your system, but you are not chemically dependent, and without being so, regardless if you are taking opana or HM or whatever potent narcotic, you are not in a state of withdrawal, not even in mild withdrawal, your just not. and if you can help it, you don't want to be.

VERY wise words :-) I've tried snorting, plugging, and eating, and I discovered that eating oxy produced the strongest, most pleasurable high without having to compromise with short duration. Sure IV will feel better, but the long duration of eating it makes up for it I guess. I think what also distinguishes oral oxy from the other ROAs, is that when swallowed, the oxy has more time and more opportunity to metabolize into oxymorphone (= more sedating, warm high).



If I had to speculate, I'd say the reason I experience this is because I re-dose MANY times on the days I get high. Even though I use 2x per week, each of those days I dose again, and again, and again, in attempt to chase the nod. When it's all said and done I had been snorting 5mg bumps every hour for 6-10 hours. Then the next day I feel like shit starting as soon as I wake.

When we're talking about opiates, then (mild) withdrawal is the same thing as a hangover in regards to moderate use. I agree that what I'm experiencing is NOT full-blown withdrawal, however, it is still noticeable enough to make me extremely depressed, headache, and a cold shiver through my spine. This actually substantially hurts my job performance and enjoyment of life, and worst of all makes me sleep for 12-14 hours. I guess you could call it "mini-withdrawal," but mini Opana withdrawal is probably equal to complete oxycodone withdrawal I'd imagine. I think to myself, if I feel this way coming of of 10mg of Opana, I cringe to imagine what a 40mg + daily IV user feels coming off of it (worse than your worst nightmare I suppose).

[Restharrow]

I have taken Opana and Dilaudid extensively for pain control. Usually via oral as it lasts longer, I have had chronic sinus problems since childhood and can't stand the feeling of a stopped up nose. I have never plugged either.

A couple of times I tried snorting a tiny amount of Opana (probably 1/10th of a 40 mg. tablet) and it knocked me on my ass both times. I am hyper sensitive to snorted Opana and lucky I took it slow. The difference in oral and nasal on Opana is incredible for me. I have 2 chronic pain problems and the main problem is best treated by taking the Opana every 12 hours and eating the Oxy instant release if I need quicker pain control. The other pain problem comes on very quickly and hurts so bad I almost cry every time it happens. A couple times when I had the very severe sudden pain, I snorted about 2 mg. to 4 mg. of Opana (from a 40 mg. tablet) and got instant pain relief, a high rate of euphoria and went to sleep almost immediately. I tried snorting the Dilaudid and did not feel much.

A few years ago I was taking 400mg. plus of Oxycontin (orally) so I have a pretty high tolernance.

[Oxymorph]

No..........It's really not. What you are experiencing cannot truly even be considered "withdrawal". Sure you could use the term withdrawal to say you are dealing with the effects the drug had on your system, but you are not chemically dependent, and without being so, regardless if you are taking opana or HM or whatever potent narcotic, you are not in a state of withdrawal, not even in mild withdrawal, your just not. and if you can help it, you don't want to be.

I have to disagree with this. I will agree that what I am experiencing due to opiate cessation is nothing like what would be experienced by a long-term daily user, however the same neurological mechanisms that cause opiate withdrawal in a 'dependent' person are responsible for what I am experiencing, even though to a much smaller extent.

Withdrawal occurs because the repeated use of opiates causes a down-regulation in opiate receptors in neurons. When the external opiate is no longer being consumed, the receptors take time to up-regulate back to their 'normal' levels. The time period before this "normal" level is achieved is withdrawal, which is essentially the body's response to lacking the 'normal' level of opiate receptors, and therefore lacking a normal level of endogenous opiate activity. (I'm not doubting that you know this already, I'm just trying to clarify my point.)

It is not necessary for one to be a "dependent" or daily user for opiate down-regulation to occur (it just happens to a lower/slower extent otherwise). When I am re-dosing on a powerful mu agonist such as oxymorphone again and again over a period of 8-10 hours, 2x per week, I am down-regulating my opiate receptors. Regardless of how many times I do this per week, it happens to an extent. The next few days after I stop dosing the oxymorphone, I experience moderate/severe depression, mild body aches, mild chills, dysphoria, etc.

This happens BECAUSE my opiate receptors have been down-regulated and opiate use has stopped, which is the same reason withdrawal occurs in severe opiate dependency. The fact that you say it's not withdrawal AT ALL is where I disagree. It is a very mild form of withdrawal. I challenge you to come up with another logical reason as to why I feel this way days after using oxymorphone, other than the same mechanisms responsible for withdrawal but to a relatively small extent compared to dependents.

[Dilauday]

I am not going to say this may not indeed be what causes you to experience those symptoms. It may be due to the fact that you have used opiates for a while, even though you still only use once or twice a week, for a day or two at a time. I am not sure how long you have been doing this or how long you have been using opiates off and on. However, lets say you have no dependency what so ever, such as someone where to take oxymorphone and have never taken anything before, let's say they do a few days on and stop, and experience some ill effects. This is not the same as withdrawl nor does it work the same within the brain as an opiate dependent individual. If you are to take opiates, once or twice, and have never taken them before, your brain does not stop producing (or slow down greatly) its own production of endogenous opiates right away, this takes place over a period of time. If someone who hasn't taken opiates before experiencing unpleasant feelings after a few days of use, I attribute that to the fact that their brain's opiate receptors have been heavily activated, causing other chemicals to be released in much higher amounts. The "strain" or after effect this has on other chemicals and the natural order of things (what was normal before hand) is what is causing those effects to take place.

Now, if you have been using for a while, consistently, even though you take some breaks, your brain may have begun to become partially dependent and much more use to subjective opiate activation, which in turn, may actually be causing your body to start producing less natural opiates. A definite way to know this is true is when you take your opiates now after a few days break, besides how opiates make you feel good to begin with, are you starting to feel even better than you were when you first started taking opiates? Yes it is FOR SURE that after a while you will never, or it will be extremely hard, to produce those first few experiences you have with opiates. But if you just find when your not taking opiates that you are just not as happy, not full of energy, not nearly as "better off" as those few days your taking your opiates, by joe you are starting to get dependent on your opiates.

You might be becoming slightly dependent on your opiates. If you were someone who wasn't, like you claim, then you are not experiencing withdrawal but are just feeling wrecked from your brain being on drugs, so to speak. The brain changes drastically over time from long-term use of opiates, and until repeated use causes such a change, you are not having withdrawal at all, your just feeling the result in a change in regular brain chemistry and your brain has NOT begun to stop producing its own natural chemicals.

[Oxymorph]

However, lets say you have no dependency what so ever, such as someone where to take oxymorphone and have never taken anything before, let's say they do a few days on and stop, and experience some ill effects. This is not the same as withdrawl nor does it work the same within the brain as an opiate dependent individual.

If someone who has never touched opiates before were to take a potent mu agonist for days and suddenly stop, any ill effects they experience is due to mu receptor down regulation = mild withdrawal. Just as I have stated before, same mechanism, different extent.

If you are to take opiates, once or twice, and have never taken them before, your brain does not stop producing (or slow down greatly) its own production of endogenous opiates right away, this takes place over a period of time. If someone who hasn't taken opiates before experiencing unpleasant feelings after a few days of use, I attribute that to the fact that their brain's opiate receptors have been heavily activated, causing other chemicals to be released in much higher amounts. The "strain" or after effect this has on other chemicals and the natural order of things (what was normal before hand) is what is causing those effects to take place.

It seems to me that you are implying that the ill effects caused from stopping opiates after repeated use is due to some sort of hangover. You may be saying that when casual users stop, hangover results, but when daily users stop, withdrawal results. This is incorrect because:

Opiates do not cause hangover. A hangover is a direct result of the toxic effects of a drug. For example when you drink a large amount of alcohol one night, the next day you feel shitty because the alcohol has damaged/killed a ton of neurons, has depleted your body of essential minerals/vitamins, and has caused other nasty disturbances. In order for a chemical to cause a hangover, it has to be TOXIC. Guess what, opiates are non-toxic. They don't wreak havoc on the brain or other organs in any significant way like alcohol or amphetamines do. Amphetamines cause hangover in a different way. They over simulate dopamine receptors, and the receptors die off because of the 'stress', causing a "wired" jittery feeling in the user. This doesn't happen with opiates either, AFAIK they don't kill off receptors.

Withdrawal is the exact opposite. It is not due to some negative effects that are derived from the PRESENCE of drugs in the body. Is is due to the LACK of presence of drugs in the body, after the body has adapted to a particular drug. A casual user doesn't feel shitty after an opiate binge because of the damage or other chemical changes the opiates caused in the body, it's because of down-regulation and the lack of opiates in their body. When I first started using opiates once per week, I actually felt a warm euphoric after-glow the entire next day, and the day after that, I felt completely normal. This eliminates hangover as a possibility. As time went on, with regular weekly use, I slowly became semi-dependent because I would use again before my receptors could up-regulate completely, so I have this very slight down-regulation building over time (2 years of weekly use), and I now feel mild withdrawal after stopping.

Now, if you have been using for a while, consistently, even though you take some breaks, your brain may have begun to become partially dependent and much more use to subjective opiate activation, which in turn, may actually be causing your body to start producing less natural opiates. A definite way to know this is true is when you take your opiates now after a few days break, besides how opiates make you feel good to begin with, are you starting to feel even better than you were when you first started taking opiates? Yes it is FOR SURE that after a while you will never, or it will be extremely hard, to produce those first few experiences you have with opiates. But if you just find when your not taking opiates that you are just not as happy, not full of energy, not nearly as "better off" as those few days your taking your opiates, by joe you are starting to get dependent on your opiates.
You might be becoming slightly dependent on your opiates. If you were someone who wasn't, like you claim, then you are not experiencing withdrawal but are just feeling wrecked from your brain being on drugs, so to speak. The brain changes drastically over time from long-term use of opiates, and until repeated use causes such a change, you are not having withdrawal at all, your just feeling the result in a change in regular brain chemistry and your brain has NOT begun to stop producing its own natural chemicals.

I guess it all depends on what you mean by dependent. This is probably what we are disagreeing on. I am asserting that dependence is relative, e.g. that low levels of dependence will cause low levels of withdrawal. In this case, I am semi-dependent, because I have been using opiates weekly for 2 years (my brain has adjusted to the presence of opiates to some extent). Even someone who has never touched opiates before, but feels shitty after a several-day binge, has become slightly and temporarily dependent for the duration of that binge. In short: receptor down regulation = dependence (varying extents exist).

However, if you are saying that there is some absolute threshold of use that makes one cross over from non-dependent to dependent (which is what I was getting from previous posts), then this is what I don't agree with. There is no magic number that makes a casual user instantly turn into a dependent user. Dependence and withdrawal are mutually inclusive, you can't have one without the other. Dependence, and therefore withdrawal is relative, and the transition from non-dependent to dependent can very well be gradual.

[Dilauday]

Well here is the conflict and the confusion. I was unaware what your history with opiates was, you make it seem like you are very new to all this, to using them etc. With the questions that you ask and just in general.

I never said that opiates WILL cause a hangover, I simply said if one were to experience ill effects after using for the first time or for someone who has used very little, that effect would not be caused by the same chemical response in the brain that long-term dependent indivduals experience. mu activity is not the only receptor at play with opiates, it is the majority of the effects one experiences but it is not the only thing going on up there. When someone uses for a long time, these receptors and the natural substances that effect them are what is the main cause of the withdrawal effect. The chemical does not have to be toxic to cause a noticable after effect or even unpleasant after effect. BTW any substance (for the most part) can be toxic if enough is taken, when someone overdoses on heroin for example, they technically have taken a toxic amount of heroin. Same with our own brain chemicals such as seretonin, a seretonin storm as another example is when a neurotoxic level of seretonin is present in the pathways.

Take very non-toxic substances such as LSD (not DOx's) and Psilocin, after a day or two of taking a sufficent amount, one can experience a range of unpleasant effects for taking such a substance. This is due to the changes it has caused to the natural order of things, or the normal neurology of the brain. I think the only chemical this doesn't happen with is DMT, being such a powerful substance as it is, after 30 minutes or so of smoking one can hardly tell anything, esp such extrodinary could even have happened as you feel completely normal. LSD, however, effects a wide range of sub-receptors and parts in the brain that it can alter the way the brain is working for a time being.

Cannabinoids, when binding to the cannabinoid receptors, inhibit a chemical which normally inhibits dopamine, when that inhibitor stops holding back the dopamine reserves it causes it to flood the pathways, thus causing the "high" from marijuana. This depletion when enough is taken is what cause unpleasant effects the next day. When someone smokes marijuana for extended periods of time, the natural cannabinoids can actually begin to act with less affinity then they once did, thus causing a different effect after cecastion that someone who has not smoked it for long periods of time.
MDMA enters the seretonin synapse and causes the seretonin to be pumped out into the pathways causing the "high" for ecstasy. When there is no more seretonin to pump out, and no more to reuptake, dopamine can actually be brought up via reuptake into the seretonin synapse causing it to be broken down into a toxic chemical doing damage to the synapse. At a higher enough dose MDMA can become neurotoxic, when otherwise it is not so. When someone takes MDMA for extended periods of time it causes changes in the normal brain chemistry, the body adjusts to a higher than normal amount of seretonin in the synapse and when one stops taking it after a long time it can cause other chemical reactions than stated above from someone taking it only once or twice.

Although opiates (not opiods) are generally very safe and much less harmful than many many other drugs, they still alter the brain and cause chemical changes from the "normal" way. I never said people that take opiates for the first time, or that do not take it often WILL have unpleasant effects following a few days of use. I said if one DID experience such effects, it would not be caused by the same chemical changes that are responsible for someone who is dependent on opiates or even semi-dependent from using for extended periods, even if it is not everyday.
I dont' know if you are in partial denial about where you are at with drugs, but being as you have used for several years, you have become semi-dependent and more sensative to your natural opiods "slacking" in a way much quicker after a few days use. This is because you have been using for an extended period of time and thus your brain has begun altering in such a way similar to someone who is fully dependent.

We have kind of bounced back and forth between several discussions here, mixing things up quite a bit. My responses to when you said withdrawal from any other opiod compared to oxymorphone is a cake walk, is very untrue. Even though you have experienced some of the effects one experiences when long-term opiod use stops, you still have no idea what true withdrawal is, and I am saying with all compassion, you don't want to know. Despite oxymorphone withdrawal being worse than others, the magnitude of powerful opiate withdrawal in general cannot be downplayed, at all.

To summarize, the main points being discussed, have been confused in regards to yourself specifically, opposed to speaking in general of either, someone who has only used once or twice and has never had a habit before, and someone who has had a habit and/or someone currently semi or fully dependent. I have known people who have not used before and did for several days and experienced unpleasant effects, but not the same effects as one gets from long-term use. They are not the same effects but just less severe. Some effects can be thought of a similar, but being that withdrawal from opiates causes so many symptoms its hard not to have some be similar. People I have seen have become sluggish, kind of tired, congnitive functions not as sharp and others as well. As opposed to the depression and aches and everything you experience being semi-dependent. Many other people experience no ill effects after using for a few days without having a prior habit or a long period of time taking them off and on like yourself. As stated previously, opiates effect a wide range of receptors besides just the mu receptors, although that is its prodominent response. Having your brain chemistry altered for several days, can sometimes cause a period of time after use to return to normal, however the bodies natural opiods do not have a switch that automatically stop from being made or used properly. It takes an extended duration of continous or repeated (with breaks) use for such an effect to happen when one ceases to take the substance.

Despite previous threads or posts I have a respect for you, as I do for most everyone. I see you do have a desire for knowledge and a general curiosity for learning and see some similarities to you when I was younger. However, you should not only take the word of some (especially people you don't truly know but have others you don't know either vouch for) on information that is very subjective as with drugs everyone responds differently, it is not black and white or even grey, as they do not just effect one thing and one thing only nor are our brains identical or respond identical even remotely. Keep your mind open, but more importantly, understand nothing is for sure esp with neurology, it is always best to attempt to understand as many perspectives as possible in a fruitless effort to see the whole picture.

Take care and stay safe.