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Thread: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

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    Sub IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Check out this study, conducted recently at Columbia University, which seems to suggest that a formulation containing bupe and naloxone (Suboxone) has significantly less abuse potential than a formulation containing only buprenorphine.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20403021

    The statistics are impressive. Bupe and naloxone was self-administered less often than just bupe (p<.0005). Even more interestingly, subjective feelings of "drug liking" and "desire to take the drug again" were significantly higher for the bupe-only formulation (p<.0001). It was conducted in a randomized, double-blind setting, and used placebo doses, which minimizes the likelihood that the results were effected by expectations or by a "placebo effect".

    Along with (I assume) most of the regular members here, I have long heard rumors that Subutex (especially small IV doses) is more euphoric than Suboxone. I have heard that the effects are more typical of a mu-agonist, with some people even reporting a very mild rush.

    I have also read fairly convincing posts from seemingly credible posters, who have found that by removing the naloxone from Suboxone, they increase its perceived "potency" significantly. This can be done by dissolving the Suboxone in alcohol, allowing the naloxone to fall out of solution and settle, since it isn't soluble in alcohol, and then transferring the solution to a new container, where it is evaporated, leaving only bupe, and re-dissolved in water for administration.

    Now, personally, having a seemingly solid understanding of buprenorphine's unique pharmacology, have always assumed that the naloxone could not have any effect. A search of the literature will typically reveal that a .3 mg IV dose of buprenorphine has an equipotent mu-antagonistic effect of anywhere from .8 - 2.0 mg of naloxone. This lead me to believe that, considering the large bupe:naloxone ratio in the Suboxone, the naloxone should have no appreciable effect (except when injected into an individual with full agonists onboard - unfortunately I have experienced this).

    However, this peer-reviewed study conducted by a very respectable institution with a history of substance abuse research has caused me to have second thoughts. Maybe the naloxone actually does in some way effect the subjective effects of the bupe. Maybe the rumors about subutex being more abusable hold some truth. I have read other studies which suggest that non-tolerant heroin users couldn't distinguish between IM shots of heroin and buprenorphine. And I know a few people who have told me that they get a much better "buzz" from subutex.

    Having rung the gamut of opiates myself, everything from popping vicodin to injecting heroin/hydromorphone/etc, I have to say that injecting bupe is so much different. There is no "rush" whatsoever, and it doesn't seem to take effect for 10 minutes or so (excluding the times I have been forced into precipitated withdrawals within seconds). There is no euphoria whatsoever, I only notice that after a little while I feel "well", my cravings disappear, and any withdrawal symptoms disappear. Why is this? What is the mechanism behind its slow onset and relative lack of euphoria?

    Is bupe, by nature, non-euphoric? Or is the naloxone in Suboxone really exerting an effect on the way it is perceived by people who attempt to use it to get high? Anyone have any experience using subutex/buprenex recreationally with any success?

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    its addictive that is for sure, i blew out many a vein shooting sub strips. and its not the drug that is addictive.. it is the addiction to the needle. that is all.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I've shot suboxone in the past. Oh man, it was wonderful. I can see how it's addicting.

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    Occasionally Opiated chrisofd3ath is an unknown quantity at this point chrisofd3ath's Avatar
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I had a few friends who'd shoot about .5mg-1mg of suboxone and get totally wasted, nodding and everything. They loved it. I just get 'normal'. I think the ability to get high on it depends a lot on having a low tolerance to opiates, or maybe just a tolerance to suboxone.
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I forgot to mention, the study I had referenced included only people that were already being maintained on bupe. Which is even more strange considering that conventional wisdom suggests that somebody on bupe maintenance should get absolutely no euphoria from bupe injection. The results of this study suggest otherwise.

    Personally, I am wary of injecting Suboxone/Subutex formulations because of the weak benefit:risk ratio. High risk of abscess/complication vs. almost no euphoria. However, I will say that IV doses of bupe in the .5-1 mg range, once per day, are completely sufficient to maintain myself and stave off all withdrawals, where it normally would take around 2-3 mg orally to achieve the same results. Also, if so desired, I can take a full agonist 8 hours later and get high, with minimal blocking effects. I assume it's just because of the difference in bioavailability. There are obvious financial benefits because of this.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    As far as naloxone not having any effects....that's a bunch of rotten bs. After two or three days on suboxone I become suicidal, have low riding paranoia with anxiety, general apathy and depression and a constant migraine headache.

    I can take subutex and feel completely normal, no headache, no depression, laugh a lot, lots of energy, no problems at work, etc.

    I figure its going to take a couple high profile suicides before they remove that shit from the bupe for good.

    Until that time it's subutex or cold turkey for me, period. The last time I took suboxone I cried for two hours before I mustered the energy to roll my sheet into a noose.

    I promptly got together $100 and went out and got right.

    P.S. My gf almost 5150ed me and made me promise I would never bring "that shit" into our house again.
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Quote Originally Posted by Junkette View Post
    As far as naloxone not having any effects....that's a bunch of rotten bs. After two or three days on suboxone I become suicidal, have low riding paranoia with anxiety, general apathy and depression and a constant migraine headache.

    I can take subutex and feel completely normal, no headache, no depression, laugh a lot, lots of energy, no problems at work, etc.

    I figure its going to take a couple high profile suicides before they remove that shit from the bupe for good.

    Until that time it's subutex or cold turkey for me, period. The last time I took suboxone I cried for two hours before I mustered the energy to roll my sheet into a noose.

    I promptly got together $100 and went out and got right.

    P.S. My gf almost 5150ed me and made me promise I would never bring "that shit" into our house again.
    is naloxone usually associated with suicidal behavior? ive never heard of that before but i dont know shit about naloxone.

    i honestly dont like subutex im one of the few ppl i know that prefers the orange boys i used to despise the taste but im used to it now and even if im gonna shoot it which i dont usually do id still prefer suboxone cause them texes have mad fuckin filler in em and im not uncomfortable shootin orange liquid so it doesnt bother me at all

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    just don't do what I did and shoot 10mg. don't. lol.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisofd3ath View Post
    I had a few friends who'd shoot about .5mg-1mg of suboxone and get totally wasted, nodding and everything. They loved it. I just get 'normal'. I think the ability to get high on it depends a lot on having a low tolerance to opiates, or maybe just a tolerance to suboxone.
    I don't know of its the tolerance l do about 1 opana 30 a day. Well about 30 in 7 days but whatever I use to do tons of everything and I still do when I can find it ( ky sucks). but when I shoot 3.5 mgs of the strip and smoke a bowel of dro I am so fucked up-no joke. Bupe is so weird u have to find that swwet spot 4 it then its ok. But if u really want to get high get real pills or h

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    why in fucks name would you shoot 10 mg?
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I didn't know better at the time. They kind of just fell in my lap and that was veeeeery early, maybe two or three months after I started spiking. Felt good. . . very good, but had to be dangerous. probably wasteful too, ceiling and all.

    also, onewayonly:
    a bowel of death?
    that's a pretty shitty typo you got there.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Quote Originally Posted by Disconnect View Post
    also, onewayonly:
    a bowel of death?
    that's a pretty shitty typo you got there.
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Quote Originally Posted by Disconnect View Post
    I didn't know better at the time. They kind of just fell in my lap and that was veeeeery early, maybe two or three months after I started spiking. Felt good. . . very good, but had to be dangerous. probably wasteful too, ceiling and all.

    also, onewayonly:
    a bowel of death?
    that's a pretty shitty typo you got there.
    Nah, the ceiling dose is like 32mg or something outrageous like that, but yeah lol 10mg is still a lot to shoot. However my friend used to shoot 2 of the 8mg Subutex in one shot lol, so 16mg be he was only getting like 10 or so in the rigg though. He said he would get a rush but it was different. But yeah I have noticed .5 of a mg IV does just about the same thing as 2mg insufflated.. I like subs though, aslong as I have some weed handy the shit makes me totally content. I have had Subutex and Suboxone both prescribed to me and I notice no difference with any ROA, but very interesting read nontheless
    Last edited by Eddie Dean; 07-13-2011 at 03:21 PM. Reason: more info

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Before I had a habit bupe was one of my favorite opiates. Heroin/Hydromorphone/Oxymorphone > Morphine > Bupe > Oxycodone. That was always my order, I liked oxy better than sub but subs were so much cheaper. I would not be disappointed if I got suboxone instead of another opioid, it didn't bother me at all. Bupe gave a lot of euphoria, way more than fentanyl or methadone. It was pretty much just as good as the rest only I didn't get a rush from IV. Now a days I'm on 32mg of suboxone a day after switching from 120mg methadone and my subs wont get me high at all.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    32 milligrams of sub.. thats a lot of fucking sub dude. im suprised you can still poop.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I cant poop on 2-4mgs subutex much less 32. I insulfate 2-4mgs/day and ive never experienced any euphoria from subs but the low dose beats the hell out 8mgs per dose. Biggest issue is no energy so the Dr scripted me 150mgs Nuvigil. Energys back, now all I want to do is kill all the stupid people I come in contact with. Just saying I spin up at anything at the drop of a hat! Its to the point im considering fuck this and returning to Opiates. Got Pain Dr appt Monday, will pick up 60# 40mg Opana ER and 120# 30mg Oxy IR. Im contemplating this due to the fact that Subs are fine except for this one side affect, but pain levels arent exactly where id like em to be...We'll see....

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I used to be on subutex. I used to use a wheel filter and some bacteriostatic water and make up a nice batch of super clear injectable bupe. I would use 4 8mg subutex and mix it with 30ml of bac. water. Then run it through a wheel filter and I had a nice bottle of 30ml of about 1mg/ml subutex injectable !!!
    It gave a me a nice pleasant feeling all day. the longer I would go in between shots the better it would feel too.
    Plus on this stuff your tolerance never would go up. Whatever seemed to work for you was where you would stay at for a very long time.
    Too bad I am not able to take subutex anymore since my pain levels are alot higher now due to back surgery.

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    New Opiophile chillydille is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    So. Let's say I've been relatively clean for 70+ days (except last week when I finally got a point of BTH). Anyways, I have one of the 8mg suboxones, but no wheel filter. I know, bad news, but is there a way to filter it out with multiple rinses? Also, haven't been on any kind of maintenance, and am very knowlagable on IV.
    And how much yah think I'd need? Thanks.

    -chillydillie

    EDIT: can't believe I considered that. Just went ahead and insulffated it. It's not worth it. Thanks anyways folks.
    Last edited by chillydille; 07-26-2011 at 09:05 PM.

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    Guess you can only edit once, and darnit, hit the wrong button and lost all that i typed (iPhone at that)
    Anyhoo, took about roughly 2mg's ( you know how thy can be...).
    I feel pretty good, not godly nodly high, but I'm comfortable. Keep in mind I'm going through only mental w/d's, since I've only done .1 of some really good BTH( oxymoron much?)in the past 70+ days, after a year and a half of 30-90mg oxy or 16-32+ of sweet sweet hydro.
    Just thought I'd post results in case someone else had similar questions.
    Also remember newer opiophiles, 2 mg of sub is a lot, it's stronger than a lot of people think. I'm sure most here are wise to this

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    yea i started iv tex cause i love the needle but after some experiments....i saw the potential to conserve money by iving 1mg - 2 mg a day instead of sub-l 4 to 6mg but yea I feel a good lift on tex .....but on subs i just felt well
    round and round

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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    The only way I can get high off either suboxone or subutex is if I'm at least a little sick at the time of dosing, so I try to space them out.

    Honestly though I notice no difference in the two drugs with any ROA and I seem to go through the 'tex faster than the suboxone.
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    Default Re: IV Abuse Potential of Suboxone vs Subutex

    I shoot 2-3mg of subutex per day. Before I was getting the tex I shot my 'xone too. Im really not too concerned with the binders fillets etc because I use a wheel filter every shot for the last few months. I use the 0.2 filter that stops bacteria so I'm not as worried about the high starch content.

    I will say that I most definetely notice a difference in the effects of bupe with vs without nalaxone. Being on such a small dose I usually do 2-4 shots of a bit less that 1mg per day. For le the damage comes from the number of shots I do per day. Sometimes if its slow at work and I'm bored I just keep going back and end up doing 3 shots just at work along with one before or after too. When I was just doing the 'xone I had pretty much just been doing one small shot every 24 to 36 hours because I was really getting no effect.

    Since switching to tex I now get some feeling of relief after each small shot. It's nothing big, but especially if I haven't doses in a while it just kind of feels as if I was sick and just I'd like a rinse of h that was too small to give a rush.

    I will def way that switching from full agonist with IV tex is a lot easier than with IV 'xone. I really wouldn't do my first dose of 'xone IV anymore. I have precipitated almost everytime I tried like that with xone pretty much. It only lasted 30-45 mins and after I would feel pretty significant relief. I think this was the nalaxone putting .me in withdrawals and the hype riding me out as it wore off. I know its really small doses of nalaxone but I usually use pretty small doses of h when I do here (compared to nyc) and especially after I've waited to induct, it wouldn't take much to displace it.

    Really its just a feeling as soon as you shoot it. Only like 5-10 minutes that I think is the nalaxone. When .maintaining on xone each time I did a shot I would get wired Jinx of sweats for the 5-10 after the shot.

    Hope this gives you a bit of a better understanding, ill check back on this thread if anyone has any questions for someone who has maintained on both IV suboxone and subutex.
    Last edited by FlapJack; 08-03-2011 at 07:29 PM.
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