JTDuffet's Methadone Taper Thread

[JTDuffet]

Hey Guys and Gals, hope your all doing well. I have come to the decision that I would be best off not being on any opiates any more, but since I am on methadone, I need to perform a slow taper to get off it. Since methadone has a reputation for being one of the hardest things to kick from, I feel it would benefit others as well as myself to have the entire process documented,. including how I feel emotionaly and phsyically, so that future methadone patients can read about others experiences while kicking this substance.

I have been shooting heroin for the past 2 years now, on average at least 2 grams / day, but even sometimes as much as 3 grams / day. I did this for almost the entire time i was using. I tried to kick a couple times, but never made it past 22 hours. Things just got too bad and i gave up. So around christmas time of 2009, i decided to try methadone. i worked up to my maximum dose of 90 MGS per day, and it was enough to make me feel fine, took away all cravings, and even provided a little euphoria on a regular basis.

so, during my last counselor appointment, i decided that I wanted to start coming off the methadone, and asked to be taken down. she agreed, and it was set up that i would drop 5MGS per week until 70, which would coincide with another counselor appt. from there, i plan to continue to drop 5MGS per week until the next appoint. so, around April 22, i got my first drop from 90 to 85... i noticed i had issues with sleep for the first 2-3 days, but then adjusted. this is cause i was at 90 for several months.

-jt

[JTDuffet]

The next week, i got the drop from 85 to 80.. again, for the first day or two I felt a little off. I stopped having ANY euphoria now, and I find the mornings im a little more shakey than i was when taking 90 per day. 90 would just carry me through a little more in the morning, whereas as I drop its not working quite as well. but again after a couple days, I start to feel normal again, and in fact the euphoria has once again returned a little.

I am on 80 now. and soon to be on 75....

-jt

[JTDuffet]

Once I got back from my trip, and a few days later they dropped me again. I went from 80 to 75.. which is what I am currently on. I noticed that although i did drop in dose, for some reason i still felt a little euphoric for some reason. I am sitting here now on 75, which i've been on for 2 days now, and realized yesterday I was feeling a little sedated and euphoric... and today, i am beginning to feel the same feelings again...

what i DO notice though, is that my emotions are flooding back. I have been really emotional these last 2 days. just a symptom of the taper i guess... but now im ok again, and having eupohoria back once again at 75... i almost wanted to go to 70 today anyway, just to get this over with... slow taper is supposed to be slow, i guess.. and if I expect to get to 1-2MGS per day, and not be sick as a dog.. it has to be slow...

-jt

[Poppylvr]

Glad you are sharing your taper experiences. There are a bunch of us in the "I want off this shit right now" club - both bupe and methdone. I think sharing helps with the adjustments.
Side note - there is a patient in my hospital who is being dropped 6 mg every day. This person is an uncomfortable camper - but is getting a little relief from clonidine and the occasional low dose benzo.

[prettypoppy]

Hi

Although it is certainly true that many people want off methadone/bupe it is also true that many people wish they did not have to take antidepressants, insulin, bipolar meds, etc.--I mean, really, who wants to HAVE to take medication every day? And methadone can be particularly problematic due to the highly over-regulated clinic system and the number of people working in this system that don't know jack about methadone and will lie to you and underdose you and treat you like regurgitated crap.

Nevertheless..........

With opioid addiction, the ability to taper off maintenance meds and do well depends largely on one thing--the ability of one's brain to produce endorphins (natural opiates). Without that ability, you can have all the willpower, family support, determination, counseling, etc on earth and it won't be enough to keep you from relapsing. This is what most people don't "get" about opiate addiction--even a lot of so called professionals in the field.

People can have low endorphin production for a couple of reasons. Some folks just never DID have normal endorphin production, even before they began using drugs. These people often experienced life long depression that was likely unresponsive to standard antidepressants. The first time they take opiates, they usually report feeling energized, and will say they felt "normal" for the first time in their lives.

Other people did have n ormal endorphin production and used opiates for other reasons--and after some time goes by, they may sustain permanent damage to the brain's ability to produce endorphins. The brain ceases to produce these chemicals when it senses we have plenty on board already, and once you stop taking opioids, it can be weeks or months before it returns to normal--or, it may be permanent and never return to normal.

For these people, long term replacement therapy is usually necessary--methadone replaces the missing endorphins, not the drug of choice. But because of the red tape, stigma, judgment and prejudice against MMT in this country, people feel pressure from all quarters to "get off that shit" asap and get into "real recovery"--no matter how hideously miserable it might make you. And that is a real shame, because all the stats show that people leaving MMT relapse at a rate of 90% in the first year after treatment.

But in answer to your initial post, I would suggest strongly that you do a very slow taper--no more than 10% of your current dose every 2-4 weeks. It is CRUCIAL to success that you go all the way down to 1mg before stopping, and that if you begin to feel more than the mildest withdrawals, you STOP the taper and wait for your body to catch up.

For example--let's say you are on 70mgs now. The first dose cut would be 7mgs, taking you to 63mgs. The next dose cut, 2-4 weeks later, would be 6mgs, taking you to 57mgs, Then, another 6mg cut, taking you to 51mgs. Then a 5 mg cut, taking you to 46 mgs. Another 5mg cut, taking you to 41mgs, and so on. Once you get down to 15mgs you cut no more than 1mg at a time. Yes, this takes awhile--and people get aggravated and quit too soon and that almost always leads to disaster. DON'T let this happen to you--stick it out. Some folks even alternate days when they reach 1mg and take 1mg every other day for a week or so before stopping completely.

I wish you luck!

[Dolofinell]

Great post Z you are a wonderful advocate and I am one of the
people you speak of that was always depressed before supplementing it
with opiates. No more depression for myself after 6yrs clean in MMT,and
have given my wife and children what they deserve in a father as well.
Great job advocating Z! Good to here from you. Dolofinell.
Love the new dog.

[Opiofreq]

I kicked methadone and itwa basically pain and withdrawal free(except for some restless leg syndrome)

I tapered a milligram a week for about a year or so and when I got down to 8 mil. I bounced of the clinic and bought methadone pills off the street.


I took 10mg pills and dissolved them in water and took an oral syringe and slowly titrated out to take a mg at a time less until I got to 1 mg.

At one mg. I took a couple drops of liquid a day just to fool myself that I was still taking any signifigant amt. for another month and bounced off that with no problem

Good luck bro!

[OrangeLude]

JT - nothing but prayers, hopes & best wishes for feeling right when days seem wrong.....

I'm appreciative of all the support you've thrown my way....this is my first 'done taper, not my first kick. With so much on my plate I'm going to pause and hold at 30mgs for a bit...haven't planned a length for the pause....

Prettypoppy - thanks for your post - there was a post that I found from a few years ago...I will see if I can locate it...I printed it...the DR. in that post talks about all the different proteins etc that you need to heal receptors and stuff....of particular note was that it was HIS opinion that it didn't matter the jumping off place that discomfort should be acceptable as part of the process...your process for tapering seems contrary and that WD's should and in a way can be avoided by the pace of your taper and allowing your body to catch up to the lower dose...(about where I am now - stable - at 30mgs down from 70)

[poppy]

A few years backI managed to stop using heroin and managed to drop my methadone down from injectable amps to liquid, and from there I managed to drop down from 70 ml or there abouts to 20ml per day. I was fine apart from the 35ml to 30ml drop when I had a week of major cravings for heroin. (not helped by the fact my partner was still using morning and night) Anyway I had a good year of just using 20ml per day, then we had some "friends" who were also runners for one of the dealers in our town and it all got too much sitting watching three people nodding and being the only straight one, I fell off the proverbial wagon so to speak and started using again, and still am. I'm on half a bag of gear a day and have gone back up to 30ml of methadone and despite good intentions, lack of money and shitty shitty veins which lead to frustrating hits which are usually painful, literally blood sweat and tears with a bit of snot thrown in for good measure, I can't seem to get myself in the mindset for giving up. This thread is inspiring me though so who knows!!
Best of luck to everyone else who's tapering.

[OrangeLude]

poppy I hear the struggle...I think before there any chance of succeeding you have to find the willingness to do it...it is one of the greater challenges I've faced in life .... although I'm told how wonderful I'm doing I don't give it to myself...

I hope these taper thread do inspire, help to understand and offer hope to those that feel hopelessly sick.

No doubt we're here cause we're not all there...and thank goodness we're here together.

[JTDuffet]

Hey guys, thanks for the encouragement.. today I am on 75, and have been for a couple days now, but its not bad at all. the mornings are not quite as good as when i was on 90, or 85 even, but every time i drop, after a day or so, im almost nodding off the lower dose again. lately, ive been feeling sedated, which doesn't make as much sense, since I am dropping also...

I will be at 70 on wed or thur of this upcoming week. I may ask to drop to 70 before then... and see if I can start 65 this upcoming week. im really trying to push this along a little.. cause i know it will be SLOW when i get down to 40---30---20, etc.. start going 1-2 mgs drop per week ,etc. i hope it goes well.

BTW, i had to attend my first relapse reprevention group today... and they were going on and on about the weed thing. there was a guy getting 2 takehomes.. and i said, ill never get them cause i smoke weed. so the group person was like. everyone who smokes raise your hand. and noone wanted to. so i pushed em into it, so we got 6-7 people.. and they said, why don't you stop smoking for this week. all i want to say is.. i want off the done, and give me my weed DAMNIT!! if you take the weed away, i will be looking for something else again.. and that will be H... so, stop trying to act like weed is some bad drug that needs to be stopped..

im doing ok today.. i went to a friends place.. and helped him trim up some of his new buds. he uses an NFT system for growing, and i liked it so much, i am using the same plans and building my own for next round of herb.. no more manual 5 gallong DWC buckets. he got massive tight rock hard kind nugs from 2 400 lamps, and im using 600s and i think his nugs are better than mine.. and i gave him the damn clones for this entire round anyway... so, i got the system partially built today, cloner done, and the flower systems i need to find 1 part, and it will be done also tomorrow. then SWIM can start his new seeds..

LA Confidential
chemstar
chemskunk
startdawg
cindy x pineapple
power plant pure
summer blue

-jt

[Sinderella]

JT,
I want to start out by wishing you good luck and easy going with your taper...After that I wanted to address the fact that you are feeling some euphoria from the lower doses...I believe that is related to your taper directly in that as you drop in your dose your becoming more uncomfortable earlier..You mentioned at the first drop that you were already a little shaky in the mornings before you dose..Now at 15mg less than your original dose I imagine you are probably experiencing some symptoms the night before you dose,maybe not anything major just restlessness,not sleeping quite as well or falling asleep quite as easy as before..If thats the case then the reason your feeling the effects of your dose even though you are tapering is because by the time you dose your body is in some withdrawals and your dose causes a system wide relief from those..And that combined with you not sleeping well the night before will cause you to be noddy and such...

Kind of like the whole thing in the beginning of treatment where the nodding out can be from being underdosed instead of taking to much.... This could be a sign that your tapering to fast for your body to handle at the moment...If it keeps up or the night before dosing symptoms become more adamant I would stop for a while and take a breather.. Poppyluvr is a great person to listen to...Z is one the most methadone educated ppl I know and can be a great ally on your side to be successful in tapering... Iwish you the best of luck during all this and hope it all comes out in the end as you want it to.... Remember though its the end result your after and even if it takes longer than you want if it gets you those desired results it'll be worth it in the long run...

[JTDuffet]

Im going to be dropping to 70 tomorrow morning, and having a counselor meeting on friday. i plan to continue to taper down over the next 3 weeks to get to 50Mgs per day.. then see how I feel at that point. not too much to report at this time..



-jt

[OrangeLude]

keep it positive - probably feel the drop to a minimal degree...and you're smoking weed..so tht smoothes any transition...

Yogurts for the GI tract and I added Hemp protein & Fiber to my diet - I'm loving it.

[JTDuffet]

today i had the same deal. counselor appt to discuss things.. and it went really well. barely any discussion about recovery, except to tell her to continue the drop from 70-50 at 5 per week. then the rest of the hour was spent extoling the virtues of marijuana.. i told my counselor that I wish i could fill my bed up with buds and roll around on them... and that I will never quit smoking weed.. so please dont suggest i "challenge" myself to it.. she asked if I wanted to hang on 70... but i figured i would be better off pushing it down, and hanging on the lower levels as needed..

i was told that as I am dropping, if it becomes too much, I can ask to hold and they will lock it in at that current level... but i can't see that happening yet. so, im on 70 these last couple days.. and feeling ok. except for a little less than perfect in the mornings, im overall still getting full affects off the done.

i am getting other things back. floods of emotions.. those familiar feelings that we sometimes get. good or bad. plus my BMs are almost normal again.

just got to keep it going.. little by little... and hope the drops stay manageable..

-jt

[OrangeLude]

at around those doses its a good thing that your BM's are getting easier...I figure the more proteins & fibers I can get into my system the better off I am as I heal from damages done.

I was reading that you do a bit of gardening. I as an urban fool spend a fortune on my greens and am interested in the possibility of starting my own garden.

I love the vision you shared with your counselor. My counselor is a Jonas Bros nut as are her daughters...in my work I've had the opportunity to work with JB Band and I bring a video that we're cutting into her office- show it to her & what do know but her daughter was interviewed by one of the crews outside the venue...her bites making it to the final cut of the piece.

Coincidence - absurdly crazy? all of that. SHe says...keep bring Jonas videos and you can have as many specials as you want. I never took advantage of the offer but our relationship has been a good one for an mmt patient & counselor.

I also see a CSW once a week - just like to have a pro that doesn't know me to speak with. I'm a believer in talk therapy.

[JTDuffet]

well, i just got back from the clinic... and got my 70 dose. today i felt crappy.. it was 25 hours since my last dose, but my 4th day getting 70... as I said in my last post, i spoke to the counselor and i am going to be dropping to 65 this upcoming thursday. hopefully it continues to stay manageable..

im curious about something.. for those on lose doses like OL, whats it feel like to be on 30. do you find that it doesn't last the entire 24 hours now? does it wear off early? i would think you could adjust to it if slow enough, but im a little nervous of course. i want pain free.. yea i know. wishfull thinking...

-jt

[OrangeLude]

bro- as I've been on 30mgs for almost 2 weeks & no chips... i was concerned that the dose would lose its ability to hold me ... for me my system adjusts to the dose for now...if I take less and take my time with drops and stay there it seems like I feel a bit clearer, I feel a little bit more alert...I have moments of cravings ...but I think that's a life long thing...so much of this is my/your/our heads...when my body is stable and has fully caught up to the dose I start to get tired early from the combo of 30mg, a mg or two of Kpin and smoking weed through a good part of most days...

bottom line for me is - seems like the dose holds now - like better on the way down than it did in the way way up when I first got on done from 250/300mg day oxy/hydro habit.

mileage varies.

[JTDuffet]

Well, the 70 is starting to knock me out again.. yesterday I had a bit of a nod going in the afternoon. so much so, i had to nap for a couple hours.. im ready to drop again (to 65).. thats for sure... it will come in 2 days, but i could take it now...

the tapering for me has been quite interesting to say the least. what i thought would be hell.. or started off a little rough, as shown itself to be not so bad... at least at this point in the taper.. as long as I give myself enough time in between the drops, my body adjusts to it.. also, where my metabolism is so fast, its almost helping in the taper also.. as i adjust quickly to the new levels...

last nite i had a WD.. not withdrawal.. wet dream. it was a weird one. i was using a pillow to beat off in, then woke up,, and thats all she wrote... haven't had one in years..

also, the B movements are happening regularly now.. and not like rocks... almost completely normal now... and emotions returning.. my own feelings, etc.. been a long time since i felt anything.. so slowly getting used to them again.. feeling pretty good though..

-jt

[JTDuffet]

Hi Everyone.. today i got the drop.. i am officially on 65 mgs today... i was in line with some guy and he was saying.. im dropping. so i said, really. me too. im on 65 today.. and he says.. ah, im on 235 today.. dropping from 240.. and i was like WOW.. ok.. i guess it shows we are all different.. just glad I am not working my way down from 240... thats for sure..

so.. for today i will see how I feel after this drop... im hoping i feel fine, since the 70 was kicking my ass again..

-jt

[OrangeLude]

hoping that you keep the good feelings rolling...gotta believe that the burn of your babies is helping you down this road.

I was discussing the therapeutic use of weed with my CSW this morning. I have been going to a counselor outside the clinic in my all around self help pull my life back together mode....

65 was a good number for me...started to get some solid clarity, more energy and was able to see some goals and ambitions....not common discussion topics in many of the mmt lines.

[JTDuffet]

hoping that you keep the good feelings rolling...gotta believe that the burn of your babies is helping you down this road.

I would have to agree with that.. i'm also having daily BMs.. and they are normal.. no more rocks and pinecones from hell...

-jt

[OrangeLude]

I would have to agree with that.. i'm also having daily BMs.. and they are normal.. no more rocks and pinecones from hell...

-jt

one of the great achievements while still dosing opiates having comfortable regular BM's - that is huge and do not mean literally or do I?

[Chipper]

That guy on 240 could easily drop 30 mgs and not even hardly feel it.

Good job with the taper, JTD!

[OrangeLude]

That guy on 240 could easily drop 30 mgs and not even hardly feel it.

Good job with the taper, JTD!

even using the 10% of your dose drop - he's going down 24mgs - that would be tough for me to go down by 5's from 240...but if that's what he's comfy with....I wouldn't want to get that far up on 'done dosage.

JTD - u r a power of example.

[JTDuffet]

Thanks guys... having support is also really great also.. so thanks to everyone... im feeling fine on 65... i almost feel a little sedation. but im sure after a few more days it will return again. just my body adjusting..

everything else is working normal as it should. the new herbs shuold be coming by the end of the week.. can't wait as I am running a little low right now... i can't survive without my bowls of kinds.. im also going to be picking up a new grinder to play with in the next couple days...

-jt

[JTDuffet]

Well, the 65 mgs a day is now kicking my ass again. i had to take a small nap again this evening.. 5-8pm... i am finding that as I drop and adjust to the new level, its like cutting back/weaning.. then i get the dose and it kicks my ass again..

im actually looking forward to not being sedated every day... cause sometimes i want to have some energy and clarity.. not confusion and noddiness, especially when i have stuff to do.. just shows im ready for it.. as its been nearly 2.5 years of fog.. and its just starting to clear..

-jt

[JTDuffet]

Well. the good news is that its all official now.. i am going to be tapering from 65 down to 40 dropping by 5 mgs per day until i reach 40.. i saw the doctor today, and its been written up as such..

he also seemed to be upset that i was on 65.. as I hear whenever you drop to 70 you are supposed to stop there, and see the doctor, but i've been getting 65 for about 5 days now.. but no biggie.. won't be long now. end of june and i will be at 40..

then make a new plan. feeling good about it.. Im also managing to dispose of some of my used works. i have 3 paper bags FULL of bags of works.. and i am still working on the first bag.. but i managed to fill BOTH the sharps containers in the mens AND ladies rooms of the clinic i attend. i need to tell them to empty them, so i can fill them up again. i have thousands of works i need to destroy...

-jt

[OrangeLude]

rock on JTD... why so many pins as if I need to ask...one time I got sober had a bud come over to help me clean out and he thought I was stocked to treat an injured army for pain.

[D Man]

rock on JTD... why so many pins as if I need to ask...one time I got sober had a bud come over to help me clean out and he thought I was stocked to treat an injured army for pain.

Yeah, JT, why keep so many used pins? Do they serve as some kind of reminder?