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Thread: Injecting subotex

  1. #1
    Occasionally Opiated prologos is an unknown quantity at this point prologos's Avatar
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    Default Injecting subotex

    Before I ask what i want i would honestly like to say that this site and all you guys do excellent jobs!

    As I mentioned in an other thread I have never taken subotex and I happen to have 2 2mg tablets in my possesion. I know that normally i should use it orally under my tongue. I also understand that i can make the tablets powder and inhale them. If on the other hand wanted to shoot the stuff what is the procedure of preparing it? I just boil the powder in water? How much water should i use? Is 2mg going to have any similar to heroine effect? Do I shoot in the vein or muscle? What effect should I expect ? At this point I want to make clear that I haven't used any opioids for 10 days and before that I was clean for a period of aprox 6 months. Am I in danger of ODing from the sub if I take all 4mg at once?
    Thanks in advance guys (and girls)

    Did I mention that Greece is the worse country in EU to be a heroine addict?

  2. #2
    Occasionally Opiated MagicMan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by prologos
    Before I ask what i want i would honestly like to say that this site and all you guys do excellent jobs!

    As I mentioned in an other thread I have never taken subotex and I happen to have 2 2mg tablets in my possesion. I know that normally i should use it orally under my tongue. I also understand that i can make the tablets powder and inhale them. If on the other hand wanted to shoot the stuff what is the procedure of preparing it? I just boil the powder in water? How much water should i use? Is 2mg going to have any similar to heroine effect? Do I shoot in the vein or muscle? What effect should I expect ? At this point I want to make clear that I haven't used any opioids for 10 days and before that I was clean for a period of aprox 6 months. Am I in danger of ODing from the sub if I take all 4mg at once?
    Thanks in advance guys (and girls)

    Did I mention that Greece is the worse country in EU to be a heroine addict?
    You DON'T BOIL the liquid, you just dissolve the tablets into water, shake WELL, and shoot. You can even shoot it without sucking it through cotton, but it's better for your health if you do filter it. But if you're really sick and want to use every fucking microgram, you can.
    You can shoot it normally into an vein, and you can shoot it into an muscle also, they don't differ from each other that much because bupe doesn't give any kind of an rush. When shot into an muscle, the onset is a little slower and lasts a little longer.
    P.S. You CANNOT OD from bupe alone, the only way to OD from bupe is to do alcohol and/or benzos at the same time.
    P.P.S REMEMBER THIS: SUBUTEX IS AN OPIOID ANTAGONIST, which means it is an antidote to heroin overdose, and if you shoot heroin on top of subutex, NOTHING will happen. If you do Subutex on top of heroin, you will get withdrawal symptoms.
    Peace,
    MagicMan :cool:

    "Junk is not, like alcohol or weed, an means to increased enjoyment of life. Junk is not a kick. It is a way of life." William S. Burroughs

  3. #3
    Opiophile vaxn8 is an unknown quantity at this point vaxn8's Avatar
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    You know, recently someone posted an article on the dangers of shooting either subutex or suboxone, I don't remember which it was. I would do some more searching of these forums before attempting it. As I said, I don't remember which drug it was, but it was a case study of 4 patients, 2 did inject arterially but the other 2 were iv. I believe all (if not most) of them ended up with some pretty extreme amputations/loss of function. Check it out before you try it!

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    Opiophorum Member SirDonkeyPunch is an unknown quantity at this point SirDonkeyPunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    MagicMan : SubOXONE is the buprenorphine/naloxone combination. SubUTEX is buprenorphine alone. If you shoot heroin on top of subutex you wont feel it because the BUPRENORPHINE has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors and also is a partial-agonist

    Vaxn8: i beleive edhorfin posted that. I read part of it and couldnt read past the pictures. They had some nasty abcesses and had to have their arms amputated. Id be careful shooting subs as well. Of course when were sick, we make horrible decisions

    I beleive that the naloxone in the buprenorphine would only do anything if u do at least an entire 8mg pill. from all the correspondance ive had with others, it seems to me like less is more with subs.
    I opened-up a yogurt, underneath the lid it said, "Please try again." because they were having a contest that I was unaware of, I thought maybe I opened the yogurt wrong. ...Or maybe Yoplait was trying to inspire me... "Come on Mitchell, don't give up!" An inspirational message from your friends at Yoplait, fruit on the bottom, hope on top. - Mitch Hedberg


  5. #5
    Jr. Opiophile edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin is just really nice edhorfin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Yeah, I posted that link. Swim has a bunch of subs and won't get near a vein with em after seeing those pictures. Those cases were extreme, though, guys hitting arteries and major misses. I've heard it's really hard on the veins even when you're not hitting hard to reach spots...I'm guessing it's just not worth it.

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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Please, there have been countless threads on this very subject already Prologos. Jusr type in "subutex" or "IV subutex" in the search option and it will bring up any every thread already devoted to injecting subutex/suboxone.
    Like taking the hair off a monkey.........dont try this at home

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    Opiophile Sitar is an unknown quantity at this point Sitar's Avatar
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    Almost nothing that MagicMan said is accurate (sorry, MM).

    It is a very bad idea to inject a pill totally unfiltered. Cooking is always a good idea as it rids the material of some of the bacteria. Why take unneeded risks? Cooking and filtering are a MUST for injection in my opinion (as are clean rigs, etc).

    Intramuscular injections of pills is almost worse than IV injection, as serious abscesses will easily occur. IM injections should never be done unless you have totally pure pharmaceutical liquid made for that purpose. Muscles don't like particulate matter shot into them, so pills are a no-no for IM. Same thing with subcutaneous injections.

    Also, Suboxone/Subutex/Buprenorphine is NOT an opiate antagonist. It is a partial agonist. It can cause withdrawal syndrome in opiate-dependent people because of the stronger receptor affinity. As long as you are not physically dependent on a full-agonist opiate, you will have no problem taking buprenorphine.

    If you insist on not using the Subs sublingually, snorting them is really the best option, aside from rectal use. Snorting the Subs works extremely well and is much safer than injecting.

  8. #8
    Occasionally Opiated prologos is an unknown quantity at this point prologos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    First of all thank u all guys you 've been really helpfull! I have also read the article mentioned by SirDonkey and I also couldn't make it past the pictures! I was totaly horrified. So my decision is NOT to shoot the staff after all. I will snort it instead. I believe that I am pretty could at shooting (practice makes perfect they say and I am using H for the past 8 years, 5 of them IVing) but the risks are just too great (especially since you have no rush after shooting sub).
    Anyway thanks everybody again very very much! My compliments to the guys who have made this site.. it is a real treasure of info on opiates, especially for somebody like me who has nobody near him to talk about these things!

  9. #9
    Occasionally Opiated MagicMan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by SirDonkeyPunch
    MagicMan : SubOXONE is the buprenorphine/naloxone combination. SubUTEX is buprenorphine alone. If you shoot heroin on top of subutex you wont feel it because the BUPRENORPHINE has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors and also is a partial-agonist

    Vaxn8: i beleive edhorfin posted that. I read part of it and couldnt read past the pictures. They had some nasty abcesses and had to have their arms amputated. Id be careful shooting subs as well. Of course when were sick, we make horrible decisions

    I beleive that the naloxone in the buprenorphine would only do anything if u do at least an entire 8mg pill. from all the correspondance ive had with others, it seems to me like less is more with subs.

    Yes, I am aware of that, but even though Subutex doesn't have naloxone in it like Subuxone, it still is an partial agonist, partial antagonist. Check from any medical forum you like, Subutex IS AN antidote to heroin.
    But Subuxone is even more so, because it has that whole different other chemical, called naloxone, in it, which block the receptorsites for GOOD, hence making the using of heroin impossible and "curing" in overdose situation. It is found on it's own by brand names like "Narcantil" and "Revia" (or was Revia naltrexone?Very similar substances anyhow...) which are used to treat opiate overdosing.
    Last edited by MagicMan; 07-18-2006 at 04:23 AM.
    Peace,
    MagicMan :cool:

    "Junk is not, like alcohol or weed, an means to increased enjoyment of life. Junk is not a kick. It is a way of life." William S. Burroughs

  10. #10
    Occasionally Opiated MagicMan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitar
    Almost nothing that MagicMan said is accurate (sorry, MM).

    It is a very bad idea to inject a pill totally unfiltered. Cooking is always a good idea as it rids the material of some of the bacteria. Why take unneeded risks? Cooking and filtering are a MUST for injection in my opinion (as are clean rigs, etc).

    Intramuscular injections of pills is almost worse than IV injection, as serious abscesses will easily occur. IM injections should never be done unless you have totally pure pharmaceutical liquid made for that purpose. Muscles don't like particulate matter shot into them, so pills are a no-no for IM. Same thing with subcutaneous injections.

    Also, Suboxone/Subutex/Buprenorphine is NOT an opiate antagonist. It is a partial agonist. It can cause withdrawal syndrome in opiate-dependent people because of the stronger receptor affinity. As long as you are not physically dependent on a full-agonist opiate, you will have no problem taking buprenorphine.

    If you insist on not using the Subs sublingually, snorting them is really the best option, aside from rectal use. Snorting the Subs works extremely well and is much safer than injecting.

    Well excuse me!? Do you, "Sitar", have an injectionhabit or have you done it ever at all? Because all you have written is only partially true, some not at all. After kicking heroin and before starting on methadone I've done Subutex WITHOUT FILTERING THE FUCKERS FOR 4 or 5 YEARS, so I think I know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's safe, or the wise thing to do, but possible nonetheless!
    Boiling IS NOT NECESSARY in ALL injections,(unless you mean the boiling of the water used BEFORE preparing the injection, but I think that wasn't what you meant) in some cases you can actually destroy the compound you're trying to shoot by overrheating it! So boiling is necessary for ONLY those substances which will not dissolve without boiling, and even in those cases the boiling should be discontinued the second the substance has dissolved, or the overheating may occur with possibly not-nice results.

    And no, insufflation (=snorting) is NOT "much safer" than an properly administered injection! Don't you have any idea what you're nasal walls do when confronted with all that crap? In the long run, you start to have nosebleeds first, and finally your your nasal walls will cave in, requiring plastic surgery to correct the fact that you only have one big nostril. Not to mention how the mucuos membranes hurt in the process. This is all well documented in cocaine-snorters. So don't go advertising something as "safe" if you are not SURE what you are saying!
    I'm sorry, I took this a bit personally, but that doesn't change the facts...
    Last edited by MagicMan; 07-18-2006 at 04:31 AM.
    Peace,
    MagicMan :cool:

    "Junk is not, like alcohol or weed, an means to increased enjoyment of life. Junk is not a kick. It is a way of life." William S. Burroughs

  11. #11
    Information Warrior HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness is a glorious beacon of light HistoryofMadness's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitar

    Also, Suboxone/Subutex/Buprenorphine is NOT an opiate antagonist. It is a partial agonist. It can cause withdrawal syndrome in opiate-dependent people because of the stronger receptor affinity. As long as you are not physically dependent on a full-agonist opiate, you will have no problem taking buprenorphine.
    I take issue with several things you said, but I can prove this without a doubt: Buprenorphine, and any drug that contains it, IS an opiate antagonist. Bupe is a partial agonist, so what does that make the other part? You guessed it, an ANTAGONIST. The affinity strength is a factor in that you can't get high while taking clinical doses of bupe... that is the characteristic that makes it a good maintenance drug. But the reason WD can be precipitated with bupe is because it is a partial antagonist.

    Its too late for me to churn through my links to find this info and reference it, but you can goooogle it and see for yourself. If you don't, I'll post the links later.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicMan
    Yes, I am aware of that, but even though Subutex doesn't have naloxone in it like Subuxone, it still is an partial agonist, partial antagonist. Check from any medical forum you like, Subutex IS AN antidote to heroin.
    Here you're on the right track... but:

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicMan

    But Subuxone is even more so, because it has that whole different other chemical, called naloxone, in it, which block the receptor sites for GOOD, hence making the using of heroin impossible and "curing" in overdose situation. It is found on it's own by brand names like "Narcantil" and "Revia" (or is that naltrexone?Very similar substances...)
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but this is what I've learned (that I'll also be glad to reference when its not 4am):

    The amount of naloxone in suboxone is very small relatively speaking. Furthermore it isn't really orally bioavailable; not enough to speak of. The ONLY reason, as stated by the manufacturer, suboxone is manufactured with naloxone is to prevent IV use, and therefore to prevent diversion for recreational purposes.

    I've heard of folks IV'ing 1mg or maybe 2mg, with no effects from the naloxone... however I've read a report or 2 recently about individuals trying to IV 8mg or more, with drastic effects. Apparently withdrawls set in immediately, and apparently they lasted for a few hours.

    As for naloxone blocking receptor sites, this is incorrect. I go back to the first part of this post, where I stated that the high affinity for opiate receptors by buprenorphine is what eliminates the chances for a suboxone patient to get high on a full agonist. Again, naloxone is mostly an inactive ingredient because it isn't absorbed into the bloodstream due to its low bioavailability.
    fuck happy.

  12. #12
    Opiophile vaxn8 is an unknown quantity at this point vaxn8's Avatar
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    OK what this thread really needs is a good explanation of partial agonists. It seems that most people understand the basic concept of pure agonists & pure antagonists, but not partials. I really need to get my butt in the shower and get to work, but I'll write some more about this later.

    Majic- your responses are quite offensive! This place is for discussing, debating, or sharing ideas. Trying to make yourself super-addict just makes you look like an ass, and doesn't give weight to your opinions or add to your argument. I'm not trying to attack you or anything, but who really cares who has injected what and who has not!

    Everyone, have a great day!

  13. #13
    Opiophorum Member SirDonkeyPunch is an unknown quantity at this point SirDonkeyPunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicMan
    Well excuse me!? Do you, "Sitar", have an injectionhabit or have you done it ever at all? Because all you have written is only partially true, some not at all. After kicking heroin and before starting on methadone I've done Subutex WITHOUT FILTERING THE FUCKERS FOR 4 or 5 YEARS, so I think I know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's safe, or the wise thing to do, but possible nonetheless!
    Boiling IS NOT NECESSARY in ALL injections,(unless you mean the boiling of the water used BEFORE preparing the injection, but I think that wasn't what you meant) in some cases you can actually destroy the compound you're trying to shoot by overrheating it! So boiling is necessary for ONLY those substances which will not dissolve without boiling, and even in those cases the boiling should be discontinued the second the substance has dissolved, or the overheating may occur with possibly not-nice results.

    And no, insufflation (=snorting) is NOT "much safer" than an properly administered injection! Don't you have any idea what you're nasal walls do when confronted with all that crap? In the long run, you start to have nosebleeds first, and finally your your nasal walls will cave in, requiring plastic surgery to correct the fact that you only have one big nostril. Not to mention how the mucuos membranes hurt in the process. This is all well documented in cocaine-snorters. So don't go advertising something as "safe" if you are not SURE what you are saying!
    I'm sorry, I took this a bit personally, but that doesn't change the facts...
    First of all i dont think you need to take such an agressive tone to what were saying. But listen... despite the fact that youve been injecting these guys for 4-5 years (even though it got approved by the fda in 2002) its still MUCH SAFER to use a filter. Second of all. Buprenorphine is not a partial agonist and a partial antogonist at the same time. The reason why people go thru withdrawal when they take it and have a habit is going is because the opiates in the brain are DISPLACED by the buprenorphine which has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors, considering its a partial agonist and not a full agonist like H and morphine it DISPLACES the full agonist with the partial agonist. and since its a partial agonist you go into withdrawal (you only go into W/D from bupe if you have used a day or 2 prior to taking the bupe, ah hell i dont need to say that you already know). the naloxone has nothing to do with it. If taken sublingually like your supposed to, next to 0 naloxone will be introduced into your system. Its only there to prevent people from slamming the entire 8mg or whatever.

    second from your point of view especially Insufflation of the pills would be MUCH safer than just banging one of them without using a filter or anything. sure your nose can get fucked up and your sinus cavities.... but i do beleive all the shit your shooting up thats not getting caught by a filter is fucking up your insides. Sure you talk to cocaine users who do an 8-ball a day, of course theyre noses are gonna be fucked up. i dont think anyone here plans on doing a few grams of sub nasally. http://www.annals.edu.sg/pdf/34VolNo.../V34N9p575.pdf heres the link to show what you coulda been going thru because of you shootin up your pills. Id rather have a fake nose or some shit rather than an amputated arm...

    I can understand how you may have some weird passion for it since youve been using bupe for however long you say youve been using it. But the facts are right there. Its Well documented that if u replace a full agonist with a partial agonist, you will go thru withdrawal. it is well documented that insufflation is MUCH safer than just shooting up a pill without filtering it. Boiling could degrade some of the bupe but id rather have a less effective shot than a bunch of bullshit bacteria and nasties in my bloodstream. Im interested in hearing what you have to say about this magic man.

    Everything i said there can be found in a number of threads in this section of the site. Its easier to rationalize than to bombarde others with your OPINIONS posed as fact.

    the one thing i dont understand quite thoroughly is the fact that you say bupe is a partial agonist/partial antagonist. Now it is a partial agonist, this is without question. are you calling it an antagonist too because it just simply "antagonizes" for lack of a better term, the full-agonist in the body creating a withdrawal. I dont know but from all the things ive been reading up on , straight Bupe is a partial agonist. It does hold antogonist properties so i guess it could be considered both, but from a clinical standpoint i always thought it was considered simply enough a "partial agonist"
    Last edited by SirDonkeyPunch; 07-18-2006 at 04:58 PM.
    I opened-up a yogurt, underneath the lid it said, "Please try again." because they were having a contest that I was unaware of, I thought maybe I opened the yogurt wrong. ...Or maybe Yoplait was trying to inspire me... "Come on Mitchell, don't give up!" An inspirational message from your friends at Yoplait, fruit on the bottom, hope on top. - Mitch Hedberg


  14. #14
    Opiophile Sitar is an unknown quantity at this point Sitar's Avatar
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    Thanks for getting my back, Donkey.


  15. #15
    Occasionally Opiated MagicMan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by HistoryofMadness
    I take issue with several things you said, but I can prove this without a doubt: Buprenorphine, and any drug that contains it, IS an opiate antagonist. Bupe is a partial agonist, so what does that make the other part? You guessed it, an ANTAGONIST. The affinity strength is a factor in that you can't get high while taking clinical doses of bupe... that is the characteristic that makes it a good maintenance drug. But the reason WD can be precipitated with bupe is because it is a partial antagonist.

    Its too late for me to churn through my links to find this info and reference it, but you can goooogle it and see for yourself. If you don't, I'll post the links later.



    Here you're on the right track... but:



    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but this is what I've learned (that I'll also be glad to reference when its not 4am):

    The amount of naloxone in suboxone is very small relatively speaking. Furthermore it isn't really orally bioavailable; not enough to speak of. The ONLY reason, as stated by the manufacturer, suboxone is manufactured with naloxone is to prevent IV use, and therefore to prevent diversion for recreational purposes.

    I've heard of folks IV'ing 1mg or maybe 2mg, with no effects from the naloxone... however I've read a report or 2 recently about individuals trying to IV 8mg or more, with drastic effects. Apparently withdrawls set in immediately, and apparently they lasted for a few hours.

    As for naloxone blocking receptor sites, this is incorrect. I go back to the first part of this post, where I stated that the high affinity for opiate receptors by buprenorphine is what eliminates the chances for a suboxone patient to get high on a full agonist. Again, naloxone is mostly an inactive ingredient because it isn't absorbed into the bloodstream due to its low bioavailability.

    The naloxone in Subuxone is claimed by the manufacturer not to be available to the human circulatory system because it (supposedly) does not absorb under the tongue.
    Now, IMHO, that is a load of rubbish, as almost anything will absorb from under the tongue, and so will naloxone, too. And when it comes to it's "relatively small amount", I'll say this: one 8mg Subuxone contains 2mg's of naloxone. For comparison, one Narcantil ampoule, used for heroin OD, contains 0.25 mg's of naloxone. That means that even if only 10% of the naloxone from the tablet is absorbed, it is equal to the amount in the OD-ampoule. Then, when you think of the fact that very few patients make do with only one 8mg tablet, IMO it's safe to say that patients are exposed to doses of naloxone.
    (All this was written in a hurry, I'm sorry for possible misspellings...)
    Peace,
    MagicMan :cool:

    "Junk is not, like alcohol or weed, an means to increased enjoyment of life. Junk is not a kick. It is a way of life." William S. Burroughs

  16. #16
    Occasionally Opiated MagicMan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    And when it comes to my tone, yes I was offended by some posts which seemed to attack me and my views, which I know to be right. And you who said something about the FDA accepting Subutex in year blahblahblah, doesn't apply to me, since I don't live in the States, but picked mine up from France years ago. Now, I'm not trying to "brag" with my history of usage, I just said it to question the reliability of the other writer.

    You are all right in that my tone in some messages has been aggressive, but IMO, even though I sort of did start it, I say I was provoked to do so...
    And yes, I'm still upset, and no, I'm not here to cause trouble or harass anyone.
    Peace,
    MagicMan :cool:

    "Junk is not, like alcohol or weed, an means to increased enjoyment of life. Junk is not a kick. It is a way of life." William S. Burroughs

  17. #17
    Occasionally Opiated MagicMan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by SirDonkeyPunch
    First of all i dont think you need to take such an agressive tone to what were saying. But listen... despite the fact that youve been injecting these guys for 4-5 years (even though it got approved by the fda in 2002) its still MUCH SAFER to use a filter. Second of all. Buprenorphine is not a partial agonist and a partial antogonist at the same time. The reason why people go thru withdrawal when they take it and have a habit is going is because the opiates in the brain are DISPLACED by the buprenorphine which has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors, considering its a partial agonist and not a full agonist like H and morphine it DISPLACES the full agonist with the partial agonist. and since its a partial agonist you go into withdrawal (you only go into W/D from bupe if you have used a day or 2 prior to taking the bupe, ah hell i dont need to say that you already know). the naloxone has nothing to do with it. If taken sublingually like your supposed to, next to 0 naloxone will be introduced into your system. Its only there to prevent people from slamming the entire 8mg or whatever.

    second from your point of view especially Insufflation of the pills would be MUCH safer than just banging one of them without using a filter or anything. sure your nose can get fucked up and your sinus cavities.... but i do beleive all the shit your shooting up thats not getting caught by a filter is fucking up your insides. Sure you talk to cocaine users who do an 8-ball a day, of course theyre noses are gonna be fucked up. i dont think anyone here plans on doing a few grams of sub nasally. http://www.annals.edu.sg/pdf/34VolNo.../V34N9p575.pdf heres the link to show what you coulda been going thru because of you shootin up your pills. Id rather have a fake nose or some shit rather than an amputated arm...

    I can understand how you may have some weird passion for it since youve been using bupe for however long you say youve been using it. But the facts are right there. Its Well documented that if u replace a full agonist with a partial agonist, you will go thru withdrawal. it is well documented that insufflation is MUCH safer than just shooting up a pill without filtering it. Boiling could degrade some of the bupe but id rather have a less effective shot than a bunch of bullshit bacteria and nasties in my bloodstream. Im interested in hearing what you have to say about this magic man.

    Everything i said there can be found in a number of threads in this section of the site. Its easier to rationalize than to bombarde others with your OPINIONS posed as fact.

    the one thing i dont understand quite thoroughly is the fact that you say bupe is a partial agonist/partial antagonist. Now it is a partial agonist, this is without question. are you calling it an antagonist too because it just simply "antagonizes" for lack of a better term, the full-agonist in the body creating a withdrawal. I dont know but from all the things ive been reading up on , straight Bupe is a partial agonist. It does hold antogonist properties so i guess it could be considered both, but from a clinical standpoint i always thought it was considered simply enough a "partial agonist"
    Did you not read what I have written in ALL my posts? Apparently not, since you are repeating the same things I've said. And no, I did not NEED to take such an aggressive approach (and I DO regret it know since it got everyone to gang up on me, or that's how it seems to me) but I felt (and feel now) that I (or my writings) were the target of some nasty misunderstandings and because of those there is now this HUGE reaction towards me (at least I interpret or feel it as such.)
    I stand by my word, an CORRECTLY and HYGIENACALLY administered injection is safer than insufflation. I also stand behind the FACT that bupe is an partial opiate antagonist, and hence can be used ie. to stop an heroin overdose. Check from a medical site or something since you obviously do not believe me. Just THINK, if it's a PARTIAL agonist, what are the other parts? That's right, ANTAGONISTIC!

    I'm not here to hurt anyone, but to share whatever information I have to share.

    Bear in mind, I started to post in this thread because someone ASKED for HELP, and I thought I could provide at least some help, after which my writings were attacked with misinformation. And I posted some fairly aggressively toned posts, but...nevermind...
    OOOOOH H E L P I'm so frustrated by all this bullshit! I'm actually trembling here, in front of the computer. I can't keep my cool anymore; So, I withdraw myself from this thread.
    And apologies to those whom feel they might deserve them.
    Last edited by MagicMan; 07-19-2006 at 05:18 AM.
    Peace,
    MagicMan :cool:

    "Junk is not, like alcohol or weed, an means to increased enjoyment of life. Junk is not a kick. It is a way of life." William S. Burroughs

  18. #18
    Opiophorum Member SirDonkeyPunch is an unknown quantity at this point SirDonkeyPunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    still u seem outraged, hell you made 2 posts in a normal state of mind before you sorta went off again. Mind you were not trying to compete with you to find out whos right, comparing facts yeild optimum results. Yes i re-iterated what you said and i re-iterated what others have said. You dont have act so damn condescending. I know your probably a cool guy if we got to talking, but all im sayin is just ya know rationalize, and see other points of view, and respond in a respectable manner. Not that your last post was Off the wall in any way, but you could sense a bit of hostility.

    id just like to say again, were not competing to be right, so theres no reason to be so defensive, were all trying to learn here, and you have as much to bring to the table as the rest of us. I just prefer taking a mature approach to it instead of bitching and bickering back and forth. ya know?

    and as for the partial agonist partial antagonist thing.... your right about being able to use it to stop overdose, i mean, if thats all that was around it could work.... i just never thought of it as an p-atagonist to a p-agonist. sorry about that whole misunderstandin.
    I opened-up a yogurt, underneath the lid it said, "Please try again." because they were having a contest that I was unaware of, I thought maybe I opened the yogurt wrong. ...Or maybe Yoplait was trying to inspire me... "Come on Mitchell, don't give up!" An inspirational message from your friends at Yoplait, fruit on the bottom, hope on top. - Mitch Hedberg


  19. #19
    Jr. Opiophile vanilla_mlkshake2007 is fresh on the scene. vanilla_mlkshake2007 is fresh on the scene.
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Before I knew about opiophile I being a IV pill addict was trying to score one night Out of all my connections Only 1 person had something called suboxone .At the time I had never heard of it,I bought the small ones a few of them and I was extremely withdrawing.At the time I injected a small suboxone (not knowing all I know now)and at first my body relaxed a little and then alot.I actually didn't feel high but felt normal and had no bad side effects from it.Actually I think I felt a lil better then normal because I was able to function which is something I can't do with my severe addiction to opiates.I filteredit through a cotten and injected it.Now as for injecting and 8 milligram pill I think this would be impossible and dangerous because of all the nalaxone(sp?) you are getting,not to mention you would need a king sized syringe because of the huge amount of powder in an 8 mg. suboxone,but I found nothing wrong with shooting a small suboxone.It helped me get through the day where as my husband did his sublingually and got nothing at all outta his pill at all.

  20. #20
    Opiophile Sitar is an unknown quantity at this point Sitar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    MagicMan,

    You have nothing to back up saying that an injection, however it may be prepared, is safer than intranasal use. And on top of that, the only reason I brought up the whole issue is to point out that you were NOT using "safe" and "proper" injection technique.

    You may have gotten away with shooting up pills for a few years, but eventually luck will run out. Cooking and filtering and using clean rigs and alternating injection sites regularly is the only way to play it safe, other than not IV'ing at all.

    Just be safe, man. That's all we're saying. No one is trying to attack you.

  21. #21
    Occasionally Opiated Saceman1 is an unknown quantity at this point Saceman1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    OK, I can't be bothered getting into the above discussion .... so I'll just add this choice fact I pulled from the 2005 Australian MIMS .... if taken sublingually, a Reckits-Benkieser 8mg Subutex should have about a 55% uptake by the receptors. If injected (and that's assuming lab quality filtering and mixing), you're only looking at around 45% uptake. So, all other arguments aside, you'll prolly get more outa sucking on that Subby ... just not a blink-and-you'll-miss-it rush.

    If you do decide to inject (and I know this has been well covered above): remember not to heat it and use a super-fine filter (0.2 micron would be best).

  22. #22
    Opiophorum Member SirDonkeyPunch is an unknown quantity at this point SirDonkeyPunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sitar
    MagicMan,

    You have nothing to back up saying that an injection, however it may be prepared, is safer than intranasal use. And on top of that, the only reason I brought up the whole issue is to point out that you were NOT using "safe" and "proper" injection technique.

    You may have gotten away with shooting up pills for a few years, but eventually luck will run out. Cooking and filtering and using clean rigs and alternating injection sites regularly is the only way to play it safe, other than not IV'ing at all.

    Just be safe, man. That's all we're saying. No one is trying to attack you.
    its all good man, we dont need to carry on, scolding eachother for what they said. but who else looked at that article i posted, formerly posted by edhorfin, that shits scary...
    I opened-up a yogurt, underneath the lid it said, "Please try again." because they were having a contest that I was unaware of, I thought maybe I opened the yogurt wrong. ...Or maybe Yoplait was trying to inspire me... "Come on Mitchell, don't give up!" An inspirational message from your friends at Yoplait, fruit on the bottom, hope on top. - Mitch Hedberg


  23. #23
    Occasionally Opiated ItchyandScratchy is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Ok, this is only my second post. First of all I would like to say hello to everyone and state that I am in awe of the huge wealth of knowledge found on this sight. Now to the more difficult part of my post:
    Allow me to preface this by saying that I have only taken a sub once and that was in rehab. I would just like to throw in my unbiased opinion about the whole agonist/antagonist debate. My understanding of the opiate receptor is that there are several binding regions to it. When something binds to the mu region it is considered an agonist and when something binds to the kappa region it is an antagonist. Put simply a pure agonist will bind only with the mu sight of the receptor. The way an antagonist reverses overdose/induces withdrawal is by binding to the kappa region because when the kappa region is occupied it torques (for lack of a better word) the physical structure of the receptor making it impossible for anything to bind to the mu region. Basically, if you had done a shit load of dope and then had a naltrexone shot administered, all of the heroin molecules would fall off of the receptors because of the aforementioned molecular changes induced by the naltrexone. Sorry to be long-winded with the basics, but I just want to make sure we are all still on the same page (also I am a little jammed up at the moment). So, if you have a partial agonist/antagonist like tramadol some receptors will be occupied by the agonist metabolite, while others will be occupied by the antagonist metabolite. However, bupe is not a partial agonist/antagonist, it is a partial agonist. It is called a partial agonist because of its physical size. Bupe is a large molecule that has a high affinity to the mu region of the opiate receptor. The fact that it is a large molecule means that it cannot bind fully to the mu region and merely "tickles" it (how it is described in the literature) It is not a partial antagonist because it does not bind at all with the kappa region of the receptor. I apologize if this was all common knowledge and a waste of billi and jacky's server space.

  24. #24
    Opiophorum Member SirDonkeyPunch is an unknown quantity at this point SirDonkeyPunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by ItchyandScratchy
    Ok, this is only my second post. First of all I would like to say hello to everyone and state that I am in awe of the huge wealth of knowledge found on this sight. Now to the more difficult part of my post:
    Allow me to preface this by saying that I have only taken a sub once and that was in rehab. I would just like to throw in my unbiased opinion about the whole agonist/antagonist debate. My understanding of the opiate receptor is that there are several binding regions to it. When something binds to the mu region it is considered an agonist and when something binds to the kappa region it is an antagonist. Put simply a pure agonist will bind only with the mu sight of the receptor. The way an antagonist reverses overdose/induces withdrawal is by binding to the kappa region because when the kappa region is occupied it torques (for lack of a better word) the physical structure of the receptor making it impossible for anything to bind to the mu region. Basically, if you had done a shit load of dope and then had a naltrexone shot administered, all of the heroin molecules would fall off of the receptors because of the aforementioned molecular changes induced by the naltrexone. Sorry to be long-winded with the basics, but I just want to make sure we are all still on the same page (also I am a little jammed up at the moment). So, if you have a partial agonist/antagonist like tramadol some receptors will be occupied by the agonist metabolite, while others will be occupied by the antagonist metabolite. However, bupe is not a partial agonist/antagonist, it is a partial agonist. It is called a partial agonist because of its physical size. Bupe is a large molecule that has a high affinity to the mu region of the opiate receptor. The fact that it is a large molecule means that it cannot bind fully to the mu region and merely "tickles" it (how it is described in the literature) It is not a partial antagonist because it does not bind at all with the kappa region of the receptor. I apologize if this was all common knowledge and a waste of billi and jacky's server space.
    Nice post! See thats what i thought, i didnt know the mechanics of it. I got confused when MM said that it was a partial antagonist because it doesnt do anything to the molcules on the Mu receotirs. Thanks for defining Antagonist. I think that was where some of the hostile misunderstandings were conceivd.

    P.S. This post took me 25 mins to type and proof read cuz the subs ive just now been induced are noddin me out.
    I opened-up a yogurt, underneath the lid it said, "Please try again." because they were having a contest that I was unaware of, I thought maybe I opened the yogurt wrong. ...Or maybe Yoplait was trying to inspire me... "Come on Mitchell, don't give up!" An inspirational message from your friends at Yoplait, fruit on the bottom, hope on top. - Mitch Hedberg


  25. #25
    Opiophile Sitar is an unknown quantity at this point Sitar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Damn, SirDonk.... I wish my Subs made me nod. At this point, they only make me feel "normal". No buzz whatsoever, but then I've been on for over 3 months now.

  26. #26
    Opiophile vaxn8 is an unknown quantity at this point vaxn8's Avatar
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    OK, there are a lot of misconceptions and just plain false statements in this topic. I am not trying to attack or offend anyone, but this is my area and I hope I can help clear up the misconceptions….

    Itchy said:
    My understanding of the opiate receptor is that there are several binding regions to it. When something binds to the mu region it is considered an agonist and when something binds to the kappa region it is an antagonist....... cont
    First a little about opiate receptor pharmacology. There are different types of opiate receptors named mu, kappa, and delta, (with further subtypes mu1, mu2, ect…) These are distinct and different receptor subtypes, NOT merely regions on one super-receptor. Mu receptors are the ones we hear about the most, but the effects of opis come from binding to different receptor subtypes. For example, fentanyl binds to both the mu and kappa receptors. Before I go into more detail on this, you have to understand agonists & antagonists, then you can understand the inverse & partials. Even before agonists, you have to know efficacy.

    Efficacy: The amount (can be measured) of a biological response to a drug

    Agonist: A compound (chemical or drug) that binds to a receptor of a cell and triggers a response. After stimulation of a receptor (by binding) agonists give a 100% biological response, it is a fully efficacious drug.

    Example: Morphine binds to the mu receptor and causes several reactions in the cell- the “biological response” (I’ll explain this further a little later). The events that happen in the cell are the “response”.

    Antagonist: Acts against or blocks the response caused by an agonist. In the case of Naloxone, antagonism is achieved by competing for mu receptors.

    Partial agonist: OK, this is where people get confused. A partial agonist gives less than 100% of a biological response even with maximally effective concentrations.

    Inverse agonist: A drug that causes the opposite biological response than the agonist. This might be confusing right now, but when I explain “response” you’ll get it!

    Since we are concerned with opiates here, I will focus my explanation of response to this class of drugs. There are many, many types of responses to drugs and this is only a few of them! This part might get kind of confusing, but it’s not too bad. Warning, detailed pharmacology coming up beware!

    Opiate receptors work with and are modulated (controlled) by G-protein receptors. By working together, they affect, synaptic transmission (both positively and negatively), via G-proteins. The G-proteins can then activate other proteins (the effectors). Opioid-G-protein systems include adenylyl cyclase/cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) and phospholipase-3 C (PLC)/intositol 1,4,5 triphosphate (IP3).

    Binding of the opiate (agonist) stimulates the exchange of guanosine triphosphate (GTP) for guanosine diphosphate (GDP) on the G-protein complex. Binding of GTP leads to the G-protein subunit being released, which acts on the effector system. In this case of opioid-induced analgesia, the effector system is adenylate cyclase and cAMP (located at the inner surface of the plasma membrane). In this case, opioid agonists decrease intracellular cAMP by inhibiting adenylate cyclase. This modulates the release of nociceptive neurotransmitters like dopamine, norepinephrine, substance P, acetylcholine and GABA. This is the “biological response”. I think lots of people get confused here thinking things like pupillary constriction is the response, when instead it is the cascade of reactions leading to it.


    OK, now the whole idea of buprenorphine being a partial agonist & partial antagonist. Yes, this is true but just because a drug is a partial agonist DOES NOT mean it is always also a partial antagonist. This is a special activity of bupe and is not completely understood. It binds the receptor stimulation an agonist response (but not the maximum response because it is partial) and also blocks the receptor so that other agonists cannot bind.

    About the Naltrexone… There was a comment about the sublingual dose and that it should be high enough even if only part of it was absorbed, something about 0.25 mg being absorbed and that should antagonize (it was something like that, I forget and don’t want to go look for it). A 0.2 mg dose of Naltrexone is what is considered a challenge dose. It can be used in a case where you would want to know if you had been off an agonist long enough that the antagonist wouldn’t precipitate w/d. That 0.2 mg dose is i.v., there is no way (even if it was effectively absorbed sublingually) that it would be enough to cause w/d (again that is subling).

    And FINALLY, shooting without filtering is just really not a good plan! Have you ever seen the lungs of someone who does this? It can cause extremely serious, fatal consequences in the lung. The particles get trapped and where they are, you aren’t going to be able to get any O2, not very cool!

  27. #27
    New Opiophile robertmurr is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: Injecting subotex

    My doctor put me on bupe one day after i had 300mg of done,put me into rapid detox couldnt even have a taste to stop hanging out.Fucking bupe its as bad as done.

  28. #28
    Occasionally Opiated ItchyandScratchy is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Yeah, I was wrong. I guess I was a little loaded last night when I typed my last response. I was just relating the opiate receptor as a generic protein. There are different types of receptors, but what I said does accurately describe the role structural changes have on the binding of agonists and antagonists in layman's terms without all of the intermediaries. I hope that we can agree that there are more than one active site per receptor, though.
    Regardless, I'm dropping out of biochem anyway.

  29. #29
    Never Looked Back shaunclo has a spectacular aura about shaunclo has a spectacular aura about shaunclo has a spectacular aura about shaunclo has a spectacular aura about shaunclo has a spectacular aura about shaunclo has a spectacular aura about
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Quote Originally Posted by robertmurr
    My doctor put me on bupe one day after i had 300mg of done,put me into rapid detox couldnt even have a taste to stop hanging out.Fucking bupe its as bad as done.
    Uhhhhh, did your doc know that you had taken 300mg's of done the day before he gave you some bupe? If he did, he should be shot, then shot again.......
    Like taking the hair off a monkey.........dont try this at home

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    Opiophile Sitar is an unknown quantity at this point Sitar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Injecting subotex

    Buprenorphine is not an opiate antagonist.

    Even when it throws you into withdrawal, it is still acting as an agonist, but you feel like shit because it's not doing nearly as much as the full agonist that it just booted out of your receptors was doing.

    If it was an antagonist, you'd feel even worse than you do in precipitated withdrawals by many times. And I've experienced precipitated withdrawals from Suboxone twice. It was a god-awful horrible nightmare, but still not as bad as it would have been had I taken Naltrexone.

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