Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)




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Thread: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

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    Occasionally Opiated Poon is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    So the purpose of this thread is as the title states, to get as much as possible out of this expensive drug (aside from banging it). For my case its recreational, but for others it can be cost effective. If you have any advice, tips, please do add.

    First there is the obvious inhibitors: White grapefruit juice, cimetidine, tonic water consumption before taking your suboxone dosage.

    Second the Bioavailabilities:
    intranasal: 50%
    intrarectal: 54%
    sublingual: ~30%
    sublingual in Ethanol solution: 50-70%

    As you can see crushing your dose and mixing it in an ethanol solution shoots the BA through the roof. The higher the % alcohol the better (I myself use vodka, all I got). Everclear would be perfect. A warning in advance: It is going to burn big time, way worse then listerine.

    My example schedule is:
    1. Take all the inhibitors an hour before my dose with 50mg benadryl.
    2. Crush up my amount and add a few drops of vodka then mix the solution.
    3. Swish Listerine all throughout my mouth for 2 minutes.
    4. Pour Buprenorphine + Alcohol solution under my tongue and let it absorb for 15 or so minutes (longer is better).

    Now a more recreational route involves speeding the metabolism up. Sounds crazy, but Norbuprenophine is a pure agonist which delivers that godly true opiate feel.

    -The way to achieve this is to take St john's wort 600mg before dosage

    Now if anyone here as anything MORE to add (more towards the potentiating route not St john route) please do share, thanks.

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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    How much bupe you talkin about here?

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    Occasionally Opiated Poon is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    Oh sorry, I do a 1/6th of 8mg. It is intensified big time by the alcohol and etc.

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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    Quote Originally Posted by Poon View Post
    Oh sorry, I do a 1/6th of 8mg. It is intensified big time by the alcohol and etc.
    Wait, 1/6th of an 8mg pill gets you "that godly true opiate feel"? Or are you doing it in increments?
    Last edited by RifRaf; 08-17-2009 at 11:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    I was under the impression that norbuprenorphine does not cross the blood brain barrier.

    "What you talkin' bout Willis?"

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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    Quote Originally Posted by LongKissGoodNite View Post
    I was under the impression that norbuprenorphine does not cross the blood brain barrier.

    "What you talkin' bout Willis?"
    http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=14532 nice little 13 pager on the topic for you.

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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    This was borrowed from the following URL: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/?p=1179

    The Doc that runs that site is a recovering addict himself who is a huge proponent of using suboxone to treat opiate dependence using the disease model. As an aside, I enjoy reading his blogs. This one is worth reading if you really want to get the most out of your sub dose without using IV/IM/rectal administration etc.

    I often answer questions about Suboxone that require the qualification ‘if it is being absorbed properly’. If a person asks how long it take for Suboxone to wear off, or at what dose does the ceiling effect occur, I need to be sure that the person is taking it in a way that maximizes absorption; otherwise all bets are off. If a person simply swallows the tablet, for example, the level of buprenorphine in the bloodstream will be much lower than if it is taken correctly.

    The usual instructions for taking Suboxone are to place a tablet under the tongue and let it dissolve. It is important that Suboxone be taken once per day, in the morning; this instruction is included in the course for physicians but is too often ignored. I will talk another time about the philosophy for dosing once per day; the basic reason is to extinguish the behavior that has been conditioned as part of the addiction. But the point of this post is the absorption of buprenorphine from the tablet into the bloodstream, and how to maximize that absorption. It is important to maximize absorption, particularly if one is trying to save money by reducing the daily dose of Suboxone.

    From my experiences as an anesthesiologist, as an addict**, and as a PhD chemist, I consider three factors when maximizing absorption. The first is the concentration of buprenorphine in the saliva, as the drug diffuses into tissue down it’s concentration gradient; this is maximized by having a small volume of saliva. I recommend that a person start with a dry mouth, place the tablet in the mouth, and crush the tablet between the teeth until is is dissolved in a small volume of a concentrated solution.

    The second factor that affects absorption is the amount of surface area; buprenorphine is absorbed through all mucous membranes (the tissue lining the inside of the mouth), passing through the surfaces and entering capillaries, the route into the bloodstream. So the concentrated solution should be ‘painted’ repeatedly over all of the surfaces inside the oral cavity; the inside surface of the cheeks, the tongue, the roof of the mouth, under the tongue, the back of the throat… swished around in the mouth over and over, repeatedly bringing the concentrate into contact with new areas of mucous membranes.

    The third factor is time– the longer period of time, the longer for the buprenorphine to make contact with the mucous membranes, attach to the surface, get absorbed into the tissue, and enter the capillaries. The initial process will be the saturation of the surfaces of the mucous membranes, and the slower process will be the passage into the tissue; that is why the amount of surface area has such an important effect on absorption. The onset of action of the drug suggests that fifteen minutes is sufficient for most of the absorption to occur; there may be drug remaining that is attached to the surface but not yet fully absorbed, and so I recommend avoiding eating or drinking within another fifteen minutes or so.

    If you pay attention to these principles you will maximize absorption of the drug. The ceiling effect will occur under these conditions at a dose of about 2-4 mg; the long half-life of the drug will guarantee that if you take over 4 mg or so each morning, you won’t have any significant withdrawal for over 24 hours– allowing once-per-day dosing. Yes, early in treatment patients will feel as if they need to dose more frequently– but that is not because of too little buprenorphine, but rather because of conditioned behavior. A person early in Suboxone treatment will have feelings or minor withdrawal in the late afternoon or evening after dosing in the morning; those minor withdrawal sensations will go away in about 15 minutes if the person takes more Suboxone, and will also go away in 15 minutes if the person doesn’t take Suboxone. If the person takes more Suboxone, it will reinforce the sensations and the person will get stuck on dosing twice per day. If, on the other hand, the person uses distraction and avoids dosing, those minor withdrawal sensations will completely disappear in a week or two, as the conditioned behavior is extinguished.

    **I mentioned my experience ‘as an addict’; for a period of time my preferred route of administration of lipid-soluble opiates was ‘trans-mucosal’ or ‘trans-buccal’. As the amount of substance available was finite (albeit a fairly large finite amount!) I did all that I could to optimize absorption, including reading about diffusion of lipid-soluble molecules through mucous membranes.
    Hope that info was useful. -LE
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    * My posts have been produced for entertainment value only.

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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    Quote Originally Posted by limitless_euphoria View Post
    This was borrowed from the following URL: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/?p=1179

    The Doc that runs that site is a recovering addict himself who is a huge proponent of using suboxone to treat opiate dependence using the disease model. As an aside, I enjoy reading his blogs. This one is worth reading if you really want to get the most out of your sub dose without using IV/IM/rectal administration etc.



    Hope that info was useful. -LE
    I thought the info was very helpful. I'm currently having problems with my Sub ROA. My nose is stuffed up from snorting, and honestly I just don't want to snort even if I could. I tried the IV thing once, and it wasn't that great and not worth the effort. I'm really not wanting to plug anything at the moment. So, that leaves Sub-L.

    I normally place the tablet in my mouth, under my tongue, then wait for it to get a little soft, but not broken up or anything, then move it around to where it's on the top of my tongue, then I push it against the roof of my mouth.

    I try to leave it there, with minimal moving around, as that breaks it apart faster, for as long as possible. It seems like if I can keep the tablet in my mouth without it dissolving completely for at least ten minutes, then I feel better / it gets absorbed better. Which makes sense, because the more time, the more time for it to be absorbed.

    I've not tried crushing the tablet though for Sub-L like he was saying. He recommended crushing it between your teeth. I assume he's meaning chew it up, so that it gets dissolved into the saliva all at once, then swish it around. I'll try that.

    My problem with the Sub-L method is that I have so fucking much saliva. I hate it. It definitely works better if you have a dry / cotton mouth. Any thoughts, aside from taking a drug (i.e., pot, etc.) for getting cotton mouth? I've tried using mouthwash like alcohol-based Listerene, but it doesn't work that well. I've also blotted out my mouth before with paper towels. That helps initially, but a minute or two later I'll have lots of saliva again.

    I feel like the saliva is breaking apart the tablet too fast. Again, the longer the better. I think I'm going to try his method of crushing it and letting it dissolve into the saliva and then washing / swishing it around the mouth. Hopefully that helps.

    .......

    On a separate note. I've been trying to find another Sub doctor, and have been calling a lot of doctors and leaving messages. I've talked to a few so far, and ALL of them mandate pill counts. I know that's common at pain clinics and things like that, but I've never heard of a Sub pill count before. I almost laughed. How easy would it be to pass that? If anything, I'd have to take my extra out of the bottle before I went because then they'd see I don't take 2 8mg pills a day, and would quit prescribing me the extra, which I do NOT want because it's nice to have a stockpile of them. I just think that's funny. It's not like they're that abuseable or that great. I personally can't see ever failing a Sub pill count.

    Anyway, I'm in Kentucky, so I wonder if that's why. I mean, doctor-shopping and pills are everywhere, but here it's way more prevalent than heroin. Heroin is almost non-existent here unless it's brought in from another area. So, I'm wondering if the Sub doctors down here aren't mandating pill counts b/c of problems with Oxy or something like that. I've called several doctors in Cincinnati (which actually does have a small heroin problem, albeit not as large / popular as crack or coke) too, and not one of them said anything about pill counts. I find that interesting.
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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    nark, try to get to a lower sub dose and split that to twice daily. In addition to the many benefits of using less sub the smaller lines to sniff aren't nearly as irritating. fyi, it takes me a full 15 days to adjust to a lower dose. Also when I used to oral it, I found that 1'st thing in the am(before even getting out of bed) I didn't salivate as much as later in the day.

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    Default Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Steely View Post
    nark, try to get to a lower sub dose and split that to twice daily. In addition to the many benefits of using less sub the smaller lines to sniff aren't nearly as irritating. fyi, it takes me a full 15 days to adjust to a lower dose. Also when I used to oral it, I found that 1'st thing in the am(before even getting out of bed) I didn't salivate as much as later in the day.
    Thanks for the info. I am currently taking more than I'd like, either 8mg Sub-L or 4mg snorted. Mainly because my sister keeps telling me not to worry and that she promises I'll get into somewhere else before my stash of subs run out. Mainly, though, I think it's because I'm less irritable on 4mg snorted or 8mg Sub-L than on the lower doses, and she just doesn't want me to be craving / irritable if I"m here. It's not that I'm really irritable or in w/d or anything on 2mg snorted or 4mg Sub-L, it's just not as satisfying I guess is the word. I'm less jovial I guess. And she's a very outgoing, jovial person, so I think shes like it more when I'm like her than how I really am.

    But, right now, I snort 2mg bumps. If I'm snorting, I'll crush up a half a tab, and make two 2mg bumps, and do one in the morning and one in the evening. But, I can see how a lower dose (1mg for instance) would be better on my nose b/c it's less powder.

    Ideally, I'd like to be taking 2-4mg a day, if only to extend my stash longer and give me more time to find another doctor. At that rate, it would give me 3-4 months. At the rate I'm going, I have about one and a half to two months. So, yes, a lower dose is ideal. Now, when I get back into a doctor and start getting scripts again, I'll probably go back up to 4-8mg a day, just because I do feel better on that dose. But the 16mg I'm scripted. That's a joke. I don't need that much, but I do want the extra pills to save.

    Yeah, early morning (when I first wake up) is good for a dry mouth, although I wouldn't say mine is exactly a cotton mouth in the AM. When I was on benzos this last time, I really enjoyed it, because those did give me cotton mouth, and I really could tell the difference in the absorption of the Subs. I mean, when I was taking the Ativan and K-pins, I could leave the Sub in my mouth for like 20-25 minutes with no problem before it dissolved completely. I kind of wish I had some weed. I know that will give me a cotton mouth. But I also don't want to be paranoid, and weed has a tendency to do that to me. What I'd really like is more benzos, but I also don't want to become dependent / addicted to those. I'd love to have a PRN script for Klonopin though. I'd love to find a Sub doctor who would do that, although that's probably a rare thing. Most seem to think benzo use with Subs (even when taken as prescribed) is an OD waiting to happen, and that's just not true.
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    Re: Getting as much out of Suboxone as possible (NO IV)

    I keep thinking this was written by Poonwhalla...

    "People Wouldn't Shoot Up If It Didn't Feel Good "

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