kratom with suboxone

[theobarbital]

hello. i am new to opiophile, not a scene newbie though.
i am currently on 32 mg daily suboxone. i am maintained at a clinic.
i read through this forum and checked other sources, and decided to purchase some kratom.
it is now in the mail, yet i am troubled by one thing. will my suboxone antagonize the kratom to where i will not feel it, say the same way it blocks h? i wasnt sure, because the alkaloids i thought were not opiods as much as they were another chemical group with subsequent stimulating and nodish effects. help me out here. i really hope i didnt drop that money for something that is going to feel stepped on.

[HistoryofMadness]

I don't know the answer, never done both. But I am VERY curious to your outcome.

[shaunclo]

unfortunately, yes, the suboxone will cancel out the kratom. Especially at 32 mg's a day. You would need to stop for a good 5 days to feel anything at all. Some might disagree with me, but the Kratoms affects are so mild that I seriously doubt that you will feel anything at that high of a dose of bup. Becareful to not keep on taking it trying to feel the affects, cause youll probably just end up feeling nausious

[jacky]

yeah, I doubt you would feel much, though it is possible that the kratom could make you feel sick...there are alot of other alkaloids in kratom that may have interactions that no one is aware of, one alkaloid in kratom is suspected of being an antagonist.

32 milligrams of buprenorphine is a pretty heavy dose, the only person I know that is taking that much is a 40 year heroin veteran, I would doubt anything would be felt through a dose like that.

save it for a rainy day.

[Neo]

hello. i am new to opiophile, not a scene newbie though.
i am currently on 32 mg daily suboxone. i am maintained at a clinic.
i read through this forum and checked other sources, and decided to purchase some kratom.
it is now in the mail, yet i am troubled by one thing. will my suboxone antagonize the kratom to where i will not feel it, say the same way it blocks h? i wasnt sure, because the alkaloids i thought were not opiods as much as they were another chemical group with subsequent stimulating and nodish effects. help me out here. i really hope i didnt drop that money for something that is going to feel stepped on.

While the main alkaloids in kraytom are structurally related to psychedelics, there appears to be no psychedelic activity. The dominant effects seem to be similar to opiate drugs, and include analgesia and cough suppression. These effects are roughly comparable in strength to codeine. Mitragynine suppresses opiate withdrawal, but its effects are not reversed by the opiate antagonist nalorphine. These opiate-like effects appear to be mediated mostly by delta and mu opioid receptors. In lower dosages, mitragynine exhibits a yohimbine-like binding to alpha-adrenergic receptors, as well as some binding to the delta opioid receptors. As doses increase, binding to delta receptors increases, and in yet higher doses, crossover to mu receptors occurs. Interestingly, mu crossover is increased by the presence of opiate drugs. While delta receptor selective opiate drugs have little abuse potential, it seems that they could be used as a primer which would allow mitragynine to more effectively bind to the mu receptor, which mediates the euphoric high produced by narcotics such as morphine.

Found it here: http://www.marijuanaalternatives.com/kratom.htm

[theobarbital]

thats interesting. maybe i am being dense to one thing; its effects are not reversed by the antagonist nalorphine. but what about the 8 mgs (4, 8 mg suboxone daily) of the opiate agonist-antagonist naltrexone, i have in my system at any given time?
will it still synergize the way in which you explained that it could act as primer?

[HistoryofMadness]

thats interesting. maybe i am being dense to one thing; its effects are not reversed by the antagonist nalorphine. but what about the 8 mgs (4, 8 mg suboxone daily) of the opiate agonist-antagonist naltrexone, i have in my system at any given time?
will it still synergize the way in which you explained that it could act as primer?

The naltrexone in suboxone is a very small amount and is only there to prevent IV (some say that it doesn't). It is not very bioavailable orally so you don't really get much in your system. The antagonist effect of the subs is from the partial agonist / antagonist nature of the buprenorphine.

And if I understand your question correctly I have to say I don't know, but some that have first hand experience (I think) have said no and like jacky said you are taking an inordinate amount of subs. But since you have already ordered, might as well try. But heed the warning about trying to hard... kratom in large amounts will cause disphoria and nausea.

[theobarbital]

thanks for the feedback guys. i'm expecting it to come in any day now. i just talked to my pdoc, and he says there is a direct link in my referential thinking that is parallel to the opiates in my system. this means, the more opiates i have in my system, the less my paranoid thinking (schizophrenia) seems to get to me. he is now talking to my clinic doctor to switch me to methadone, what i wanted to be on in the first place. they havent let me on methadone because i am under 25 years old, however in my clinic, i have the greatest tolerance (32 mgs suboxone currently.) i thought because of this tolerance and long standing addiction (12 years) i would be a perfect candidate for methadone in the first place.
what do you all prefer between the two, methadone and suboxone. i have never been on methadone maitenace, but i always thought the effects were much more pleasing, even though i will now have to come in every morning, rather than getting 'take homes'.

[shaunclo]

what do you all prefer between the two, methadone and suboxone..

Ahhh the age-old question, suboxone or methadone. Since I still use I would rather be one suboxone, since I can get suboxone outta my system faster than I can get the done out. So thats my vote.

But as for affects. methadone is quite a ride, most say they dont feel shit, but I get crazy high on that stuff. While buprenorphine is a complete nothing feeling, sorta a "void" feeling.

[HistoryofMadness]

what do you all prefer between the two, methadone and suboxone.

Ask yourself honestly, 'am i really ready to quit?' because first if you are then both will work pretty well... I just recommend that you keep the levels down on either as low as possible. If you are wanting to get high, at least if you keep your methadone under, say 75mgs and that holds you, you won't completely obliterate your tolerance and may even be able to get high on top of it... not saying you should, but if you try that with subs (as you probably know) you'll waste a large amount of time and drugs on absolutely nothing. And you are obviously trying to get high, so why not?

Or you can just wait out the desire, let the subs work (i.e. you don't get high, 'cause you can't, and just accept it...) as in 'oh yeah, that's why I got on subs.

I doubt any of that really made much since.

[Curio]

.. they havent let me on methadone because i am under 25 years old, however in my clinic, i have the greatest tolerance (32 mgs suboxone currently.) i thought because of this tolerance and long standing addiction (12 years) ..

are you saying you've been addicted to opiates since you were 13 years old or perhaps even younger than that?

[RobOC]

what about the 8 mgs (4, 8 mg suboxone daily) of the opiate agonist-antagonist naltrexone,

^ Naltrexone is a full antagonist, it is the buprenorphine itself that is an agonist/antagonist.

[Hammilton]

nalorphine and naltrexone are, for our intents and purposes, almost synonyms. They block the mu-opioid recepters primarily. Mytragynine, binding primarily to the delta-opioid, won't be affected a whole lot by either of those or buprenorphine which binds highly selectively to mu- and kappa- opioid recepters. Mytragynine could actually be aided by the presence of buprenorphine in its binding to the delta-o but I doubt it'll get the benefit of an opiate in its presense for binding to mu-o, but I'm not sure. No one does, apparently.

I've taken 16 or 22mg of buprenorphine and 10 grams of premium kratom powder at the bupe's peak and while I wouldn't say the kratom was potentiated, the effects certainly weren't attenuated at all. I nodded pretty hard that day. Would 32mg be the point where it suddenly blocks it? Maybe. I don't think anyone can say for sure. I'm skeptical because once you start getting in the upper teens and twenties you start to reach the top of buprenorphine's dose-response curve.

Just My Humble Opinion.

And like it's been said, since you've got it coming, try it out; it won't hurt you any.

Neo's quote (though from a questionable source) answers you question about the naloxone or naltrexone you take and it's potential effect on kratom. If you're too lazy, I'll just repeat it: there is none. Though it really isn't a concern- taking naloxone sublingually is like not taking it at all. It doesn't absorb well through skin so it ends up in the stomach where the acidic environment destroys it.

A question for the peanut gallery: someone, when stating that naloxone is added to keep people from injecting suboxone, included a parenthetical saying that some say it doesn't (I think the term is parenthetical expression, mebbe not). Are there people actually reporting that injecting suboxone hasn't precipitated a withdrawal syndrome?

I found that curious; I mean, I've heard people say that it doesn't have an effect on snorting the orange buggers, but never that it didn't have much or any, on injection. To be completely honest though, I haven't heard many admit to injecting them.

In the literature I've read on the subject, I think in The Journal Of Psychoactive Drugs (prev. the Journal of Psychedelic Drugs), that naloxone and naltrexone offer little help when dealing with a buprenorphine overdose. Partly because they're too short acting and because they aren't all together that effective at producing a narcotic blockade in buprenorphines presense.

I dunno.

Hammilton

[HistoryofMadness]

n

Are there people actually reporting that injecting suboxone hasn't precipitated a withdrawal syndrome?

yes, but they are also reporting IVing only 4mg or less. I'm sure with more it would happen.