Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not 100%




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Thread: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not 100%

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    Default Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not 100%

    I've seen more than a few people state that oxycodone has an oral bioavailability of 'near 100%', or 'damn near 100%'. However, I can't find any information to back that up. The product inserts of both OxyContin and Roxicodone place the oral bioavailability at between 60% and 87% compared to a parenteral dose.

    Now, 87% is very high, and even 60% is pretty damn good compared to some other opioids. If we take the middle road and go with 75%, I can definitely see why some people choose to inject oxycodone, and state that it does work better for them (and not just because of the added rush).

    I'm not suggesting that anyone start shooting their oxycodone. But, while better than most opioids in this regard, a not insignificant amount is lost when it is taken orally (25% if we again go with the middle of the road value) -- unless there is more info out there that suggests the number is much higher.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    what about when snorted? Also, is there a pharmacological explanation of why it seems to last the shortest amount of time when shot, as opposed to eaten (speaking IR here) or snorted.

    And thanks for the heads up as I had read here on multiple occasions that oxycodone had an oral bioavailability of 90%.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    well, I've researched this topic extensively and have come to the conclusion that somehow the myth of Oxy having a near perfect oral bioavailability got out and has just been through the rumor-mill. I do remember reading somewhere about it being 90-100% with the IR form (Roxicodone), but after looking through this board, and many others, the only place I found those numbers was from member posts, not articles or anything of a factual nature. 60-87% seems to be the hard numbers, and that is quite impressive when compared to pretty much every other opiate/opiod out there.

    I would love to find someway to increase its bio-avail to 100% w/out going to the needle, though, it has been tempting at times. I am curious to see if anyone, especially the more chemically enlightened of the group, has some different data or ideas.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludakris View Post
    I do remember reading somewhere about it being 90-100% with the IR form (Roxicodone), but after looking through this board, and many others, the only place I found those numbers was from member posts, not articles or anything of a factual nature.
    Perhaps you are remembering this (from the OxyContin prescribing information):

    "The relative oral bioavailability of OxyContin to immediate-release oral dosage forms is 100%."

    Meaning, a 30mg OxyContin tablet taken intact will indeed release the same amount of oxycodone as a 30mg Roxicodone tablet (100% relative oral bioavailability). Of course, that 30mg will be released over a longer amount of time, but the total amount released is the same.

    This sentence may be the source of the confusion. For reference, it is on the bottom of page 4 of the OxyContin prescribing info, which can be found as a PDF document at http://www.purduepharma.com/PI/Presc.../Oxycontin.pdf.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Wikipedia states up to 87%.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by dharma bum View Post
    Wikipedia states up to 87%.
    The Wikipedia article on oxycodone as of 01/20/2009 states that the oral bioavailability is 60% - 87% (see the Dosage and administration section). Undoubtably, this information was sourced from the prescribing information / package inserts of OxyContin and Roxicodone tablets.

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    Default

    You are not reading the insert as a whole.
    The 15 mg and 30 mg tablets contain the equivalent of 13.5 mg and 27.0 mg, respectively, of
    oxycodone free base
    .
    Absorption: About 60% to 87% of an oral dose of oxycodone reaches the systemic circulation in
    comparison
    to a parenteral dose. This high oral bioavailability (compared to other oral opioids) is
    due to lower pre-systemic and/or first-pass metabolism of oxycodone. The relative oral
    bioavailability of ROXICODONE™ 15 mg and 30 mg tablets, compared to the 5mg
    ROXICODONE™ tablets, is 96% and 101% respectively. ROXICODONE™ 15 mg tablets and 30
    mg tablets are bioequivalent to the 5 mg ROXICODONE™ tablet (see Table 1 for
    pharmacokinetic parameters). Dose proportionality of oxycodone has been established using the
    ROXICODONE 5mg tablets at doses of 5 mg, 15 mg (three 5mg tablets) and 30 mg (six 5mg
    tablets) based on extent of absorption (AUC) (see Figure 1). It takes approximately 18 to 24
    hours to reach steady-state plasma concentrations of oxycodone with ROXICODONE.
    87% of the 30mg oral dose (26.1mg) is damn there 100% of the 27mg of Oxycodone freebase.
    No offense but Wiki is not the best place to find stuff like this. The info was probably copied from the OxyContin package insert for consumers. There are two one for professionals and one for consumers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludakris View Post
    well, I've researched this topic extensively and have come to the conclusion that somehow the myth of Oxy having a near perfect oral bioavailability got out and has just been through the rumor-mill. I do remember reading somewhere about it being 90-100% with the IR form (Roxicodone), but after looking through this board, and many others, the only place I found those numbers was from member posts, not articles or anything of a factual nature. 60-87% seems to be the hard numbers, and that is quite impressive when compared to pretty much every other opiate/opiod out there.
    I would love to find someway to increase its bio-avail to 100% w/out going to the needle, though, it has been tempting at times. I am curious to see if anyone, especially the more chemically enlightened of the group, has some different data or ideas.
    Taken with a high fat meal or taken rectally increases Cmax up to 25%
    Last edited by roxi*stardust; 01-20-2009 at 05:05 PM. Reason: merged


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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Well the oral bioavailability sure isn't 100%... It's pretty high though, around 80% is what I've always thought. and intranasal oxycodone has a less bioavailabilty than oral oxycodo. Though some claim that snorting gets them higher, which I'm sure some people do get better effects from snorting, but I personally have enver met anyone(in person) that got stronger 'peak' or effects from snorting comapred to oral use. Unless of course they were popping an OxyContin time-release cap orally, and snorted one crushed...

    But for me, snorting is about 15%+ weaker than oral. and while IV oxycodo doesn't have THAT much more of a bioavailability, it is indeed a much stronger high. I personally don't think it's THAT great to bang oxycodo reguarly, like someone would with say dope, fent, hydromorph, or morphine. I can attest that IV oxycodo is indeed a much stronger high than oral, let alone much stronger than intranasal. It doesn't last 2 damn hours though! but for me oral oxycodone doesn't last maybe 4hrs.

    later


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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Also remember that while shooting oxi would seem to get you 100% of the drug delivered to your blood stream, remember that prepping pills into an injectable solution will not get you all of the drug into the liquid you will be injecting; that's why people get seconds, thirds, and even fourths sometimes from one pill.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by roxi*stardust View Post
    You are not reading the insert as a whole.
    87% of the 30mg oral dose (26.1mg) is damn there 100% of the 27mg of Oxycodone freebase.
    No offense but Wiki is not the best place to find stuff like this. The info was probably copied from the OxyContin package insert for consumers. There are two one for professionals and one for consumers.
    Taken with a high fat meal or taken rectally increases Cmax up to 25%
    I have read the entire insert for both OxyContin and Roxicodone, and there is only one insert for both. Take a look at the links to the prescribing information and the patient information for OxyContin (http://www.purduepharma.com/html/our...r_products.htm). They point to the same document; the only difference is that the patient information link skips to page 26, where the patient information section begins.

    Comparing freebase oxycodone and oxycodone hydrochloride is moot, as there are no pharmaceutical products that contain pure oxycodone and not a salt. So, the (up to) 87% bioavailability of 30mg oxycodone hydrochloride (26.1mg) does not correlate to near 100% of the equivalent (27mg) of oxycodone freebase. It means that 30mg of oxycodone HCL taken orally is equivalent to between 18mg (60%) and 26.1mg (87%) of oxycodone HCl taken intravenously.

    You're comparing apples with oranges. Oxycodone tablets prepared for intravenous use are still oxycodone HCl. So, the oral bioavailability is according to various studies between 60% and 87%. Unless you can point me to additional studies that place this number higher, that range is what I will consider to be accurate.
    Last edited by jersey_emt; 01-20-2009 at 06:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Sorry to tell you but there are seperate handouts for patients and Pharmacist. I have worked in a Pharmacy for 10 years, I have seen my fair share of package inserts and drug information for both patients and Pharmacists. The information RPhs has access to is much more detailed than that package insert, especially in the case of hospital and instutional RPhs. Absorbtion is pH dependent so IV'ing pills is not getting you 100% absorption either, only a form of Oxycodone made specifically for injection will do that. You totally missed the my point of oral dosages (oxycodone hcl and oxycodone terepthlate) and the freebase form of oxycodone. A 30mg tablet really doesn't contain 30mg? 87% of of dose is damn good, in fact so close to 100% that the slight difference is not even noticable. Again, injecting an oral tablet forms of oxycodone will not yield you 100% of that 30mg dose, one because there really isn't 30mg of oxycodone in that pill and two because the absorption is pH dependent, maximized for oral absorption. That is why nasal and subligual roa with oral tablets is not as efficient. The only way you would get 100% absorption from an injection is if it were a form of oxycodone specifically formulated for injection.

    Here is some info on pH, absorption, and sustained release oxycodone, happy reading. http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?...1&DISPLAY=DESC
    At the end of this study you will see this sentence
    From the AUC (area under the curve) data, it appears that the amount of drug absorbed with or without food is similar (416/422=0.986)
    Last edited by roxi*stardust; 01-21-2009 at 06:15 AM.


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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    http://www.aapspharmscitech.org/view.asp?art=pt070123

    http://www.pharmagateway.net/Article....1208/pt070123

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

    Data obtained while volunteers received naltrexone which can enhance absorption. OxyContin ® is NOT INDICATED FOR RECTAL ADMINISTRATION. Data from a study involving 21 normal volunteers show that OxyContin Tablets administered per rectum resulted in an AUC 39% greater and a Cmax 9% higher than tablets administered by mouth. Therefore, there is an increased risk of adverse events with rectal administration.
    I base my opinion on the fact that OxyContin’s AcroContin delivery system is constructed for a biphasic absorption pattern. Essentially this means that oxycodone is absorbed into the bloodstream in two phases. In the first phase, the drug’s delivery system results in an initial absorption of approximately one-third of the total dose of oxycodone within the first two hours of administration. This initial phase is followed by a second prolonged phase, where approximately two-thirds of the remaining Oxycodone is slowly diffused through an acrylic matrix into the bloodstream. The prolonged phase of oxycodone absorption occurs over a 1 O-l 2 hour period.

    Because of OxyContin’s biphasic construction, in those instances when the total daily dose of oxycodone is increased and the frequency of drug administration is shortened to intervals of less than 12 hours, the subsequent one-third dose of oxycodone contained and absorbed during the initial phase will be superimposed on the dose of oxycodone still remaining in the patient’s system from the prior dose’s prolonged phase. This results in an increased accumulation of oxycodone and its less active metabolites in the plasma. The higher concentrations occur for the reason that not all of the drug from the first dose is eliminated prior to introduction of the second dose, and will lead to higher drug concentrations over at least the next several doses. The onset of accumulation is hastened by the drug’s delivery system, since almost 40% of the drug is absorbed within the first one to two hours.


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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by ka11ink View Post
    Also remember that while shooting oxi would seem to get you 100% of the drug delivered to your blood stream, remember that prepping pills into an injectable solution will not get you all of the drug into the liquid you will be injecting; that's why people get seconds, thirds, and even fourths sometimes from one pill.
    Lets say someone prepares 4 roxicodone 30mg tabs, so 120mg in the spoon. How much would be left after the first shot? ive always wondered that when im doing my 2nd or 3rd shot after the first initial hit.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by Raekwon View Post
    Lets say someone prepares 4 roxicodone 30mg tabs, so 120mg in the spoon. How much would be left after the first shot? ive always wondered that when im doing my 2nd or 3rd shot after the first initial hit.

    I think it would be near impossible to tell...but i dont' really know. That would be a hella lot of powder and i've always felt that the effects of 2nds, 3rds, and 4ths depends on how much you can psych yourself into thinking you're getting a substantial hit.

    I would personally snort a roxi/oxy just because of the difference in bioavailability between that and shooting isn't all that large, especially with the risks posed from shooting pills. I'm also a lazy bitch and get tired of the whole shoot prep when it comes to pills.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by jersey_emt View Post
    I've seen more than a few people state that oxycodone has an oral bioavailability of 'near 100%', or 'damn near 100%'. However, I can't find any information to back that up. The product inserts of both OxyContin and Roxicodone place the oral bioavailability at between 60% and 87% compared to a parenteral dose.

    Now, 87% is very high, and even 60% is pretty damn good compared to some other opioids. If we take the middle road and go with 75%, I can definitely see why some people choose to inject oxycodone, and state that it does work better for them (and not just because of the added rush).

    I'm not suggesting that anyone start shooting their oxycodone. But, while better than most opioids in this regard, a not insignificant amount is lost when it is taken orally (25% if we again go with the middle of the road value) -- unless there is more info out there that suggests the number is much higher.
    I'm sorry for stating the almost 100% oral bioavailability myself. I did it the other day on a thread where people were telling somebody not to shoot their oxy. But i was simply just repeating what I've heard on here(even worse than saying it on my own with my own knowledge IMO) even though I've always had my own doubts about the whole "IV'ing oxy is pointless" theory. I actually think snorting is stronger than oral, to me @ least, and everybody seems to think snorting it is a waste

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Hey roxi Im not sure what AUC 39% means. But does that mean increase. Because I swear when I plug a 40 it feels like I took 50-60mgs. I think plugging uis great for OC.
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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by bigNasty View Post
    I'm sorry for stating the almost 100% oral bioavailability myself. I did it the other day on a thread where people were telling somebody not to shoot their oxy. But i was simply just repeating what I've heard on here(even worse than saying it on my own with my own knowledge IMO) even though I've always had my own doubts about the whole "IV'ing oxy is pointless" theory. I actually think snorting is stronger than oral, to me @ least, and everybody seems to think snorting it is a waste
    First, why are you aplogogizing? Injecting oxycodone tablets is not getting you 100% either. Considering that 87% of say a 30mg dose gets you 26.1mg, that is pretty damn close to 100%. I believe everyone, at least myself and reddragon have said "damn there 100%, which it is. Oral tablets are made for made for oral use, the most efficient way to dose with them is orally. Absorption of the tablets is pH dependent, that is why nasal use yields a lower % of aborption. If you could raise the pH you can increase the absorption nasally. Same goes for IVing tablets, which again are made for oral use. Injecting tablets does not yield 100% bioavailablity either simply because they are not formualted for that ROA. Read some of the links I have posted. Those may help you understand why the bio-availablity is lower for nasal and sublingual use than oral. The reason many feel that IV and nasal ROAs of the tablets yields better absoprtion is because the effects come on faster and hit all at once when taken orally they take longer and build up over a period of 2 hours to reach peak plasma concentrations. It is the rush that makes them appear to work better, in reality they don't work better and in the case of nasal use the aborptions is actually significantly lower.
    Quote Originally Posted by SeVeN View Post
    Hey roxi Im not sure what AUC 39% means. But does that mean increase. Because I swear when I plug a 40 it feels like I took 50-60mgs. I think plugging uis great for OC.
    Seven, yeah it means there is an increase in the blood/plasma concentration of oxycodone when the tests were administered. If you can increase the pH slightly you could probably raise it even more.
    Last edited by roxi*stardust; 01-22-2009 at 11:35 AM.


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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    I am not convinced that oxycodone has lower bioavailability intranasally, compared to orally. Intuitively, assuming the the insufflator is careful not to blow their nose and rather allows the dose to drip down their throat, intranasal administration bioavailability cannot be lower than oral. I would need to scrutinize any study claiming otherwise before accepting that claim as fact.
    So, on what are these claims based?

    Second, this paragraph doesn't make sense:

    Quote Originally Posted by roxi*stardust View Post
    Absorbtion is pH dependent so IV'ing pills is not getting you 100% absorption either, only a form of Oxycodone made specifically for injection will do that. ... Again, injecting an oral tablet forms of oxycodone will not yield you 100% of that 30mg dose, one because there really isn't 30mg of oxycodone in that pill and two because the absorption is pH dependent, maximized for oral absorption.
    The pH of any formulation (assuming it is within a safe range, of course) becomes irrelevant following injection, since the large volume of the serum, and its regulated buffering capacity ensures an equal pH environment.
    I have no idea what you mean by stating that a pill does not contain the stated quantity of substance. Dosage variation is strictly controlled, and the cGMP standards must be met in order for a drug product to be marketed.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Does anyone have any factual knowlge on nasal bioavailability? I have been eating my roxis more often lately, except for mornings when I cant wait for it to kick in. But I have been definatly feeling them better when swallowed. Idk any facts about the nasal% would be great to know.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjon View Post
    Does anyone have any factual knowlge on nasal bioavailability? I have been eating my roxis more often lately, except for mornings when I cant wait for it to kick in. But I have been definatly feeling them better when swallowed. Idk any facts about the nasal% would be great to know.
    The best information on absorption of oxycodone I could find was from a book entitled Opiods In Cancer Pain by Mellar Davis, Paul Glare and Janet Hardy. The chapter on oxy was written by Mellar Davis - don't know his credentials.
    I was unable to cut and paste from the book so will have to paraphrase.

    The high oral bioavailability of oxycodone (60 - 87%) is due to reduced first pass hepatic clearance related to the 3-methoxy group of oxycodone and not due to increased absorption. Conversion ratios of oral to parenteral (injection) is 2:1.

    Sublingual oxycodone absorption is only 15% (as against 22.5% for morphine and 25% for hydromorphone).
    Intranasal oxycodone is 46 +or- 34% bioavailability with max plasma concentration occuring in 25 minutes.
    Rectal oxycodone bioavailability is 61% (which is similar to oral at 60-87%). There is greater individual variability with rectal (+or-30% range 16.4-126.8%) and peak plasma for rectal is a rather lengthy 2.8 hours.

    A few other sources are listed below.


    Department of Anaesthesia, University of Helsinki, Finland.
    BACKGROUND: For patients with chronic pain, treatment with oral analgesics is considered most convenient and feasible. Sometimes, however, the oral route cannot be used because of difficulties with swallowing, nausea, vomiting and gastrointestinal obstruction. To investigate the applicability of the nasal route for the administration of oxycodone, we studied the intravenous and intranasal pharmacokinetics of oxycodone in healthy volunteers. METHODS: Ten healthy volunteers (3 males and 7 females) were given either an intravenous bolus of oxycodone hydrochloride 0.05 mg/kg or nasal sprays of oxycodone hydrochloride 0.1 mg/kg in a cross-over manner. Blood was sampled and subjective effects and side effects were recorded for 10 h. RESULTS: After intravenous administration of oxycodone, the plasma clearance of oxycodone was 0.83 +/- 0.33 l/min (mean +/- SD) and the volume of distribution at steady-state 2.02 +/- 1.47 l/kg and the terminal elimination half-life 157 +/- 47 min. After intranasal administration, peak plasma concentration of oxycodone was 13 +/- 6 ng/ml and it was reached in the median time of 25 min. The intranasal bioavailability of oxycodone was 0.46 +/- 0.34. No clinically significant changes in blood pressure or heart rate were observed but all subjects experienced somnolence after both modes of administration. CONCLUSIONS: The results of this study show that oxycodone is rapidly and rather effectively absorbed from the nasal mucosa but the interindividual differences are large. The intranasal route may in some cases be an attractive alternative to oral or parenteral administration of opioid analgesics. However, because of large interindividual differences, it is prudent to titrate the dose of intranasal oxycodone individually.

    People at a University in Kentucky studing intranasal and bucchal administration of oxycodone and dilaudid reported this.

    In adults, the bioavailability of oral, nasal, and rectal oxycodone has been reported to be 40% to 60% when compared with parenteral administration. Buccal and intranasal administration of oxycodone hydrochloride both afford similar bioavailability of around 55%. This finding is in close agreement with the sublingual bioavailability of 45.4% ± 20.1% obtained in this study.

    While on the subject, came across this instance of nasal damage due to insuffilation of crushed oxycontin. Don't know the accuracy of the article but it was the first published incidence of damage from nasal oxy that I have seen, so was interesting reading.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n15340566/
    Last edited by digby; 04-05-2009 at 01:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Thankyou for the info, Digby. Looks like some good reading to look up on.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by stvip View Post
    I am not convinced that oxycodone has lower bioavailability intranasally, compared to orally. Intuitively, assuming the the insufflator is careful not to blow their nose and rather allows the dose to drip down their throat, intranasal administration bioavailability cannot be lower than oral. I would need to scrutinize any study claiming otherwise before accepting that claim as fact.
    So, on what are these claims based?

    Second, this paragraph doesn't make sense:



    The pH of any formulation (assuming it is within a safe range, of course) becomes irrelevant following injection, since the large volume of the serum, and its regulated buffering capacity ensures an equal pH environment.
    I have no idea what you mean by stating that a pill does not contain the stated quantity of substance. Dosage variation is strictly controlled, and the cGMP standards must be met in order for a drug product to be marketed.
    You missed the whole point of snorting drugs, apparently. Hardly any of the drug drips down the throat...that isn't the point of snorting. Most of it is absorbed...only a small trace amount drips down the back of your throat. If the majority of the medication did so...it would be just the same as taking it orally...with it all ending up in your stomach anyways...so why would you snort it in the first place?

    Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I just had to point this out.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Those questioning how the bio-availablity of nasal oxycodone could be lower are missing the point. Oxycodone tablets are made for oral administration not absorption via the mucous membranes. If you change the pH you can increase the nasal absorption. If you want more info use the search engine, I provided a pretty lengthy research article on it that proves it. If you raise the pH you can increase absorption.

    Here is the post: http://forum.opiophile.org/showpost....9&postcount=13
    Here is the entire thread: http://forum.opiophile.org/showthrea...io-availablity


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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Very interesting roxi...I think a lot of us laypeople just assume that bio-availability of certain drugs is just across the board, exempt from pH.

    This has certainly changed my perception on the issue.

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by feelings of u4ia View Post
    You missed the whole point of snorting drugs, apparently. Hardly any of the drug drips down the throat...that isn't the point of snorting. Most of it is absorbed...only a small trace amount drips down the back of your throat. If the majority of the medication did so...it would be just the same as taking it orally...with it all ending up in your stomach anyways...so why would you snort it in the first place?

    Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I just had to point this out.
    My meathead buddy pretty much takes drugs orally through his nose. He sniffs really hard and almost immediatly horks it back like he's gonna spit out a big lugey but then just swallows it. He does this with coke smack and oc. I've always thought it was pretty ignorant but I'm not gonna sit there and critisize how he does his drugs. It actually prob works out for the better with the oc or a benzo but seems kinda silly with coke and smack. Who eats coke or dope?

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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not 100%

    One thing about IV bioavailability that is easily forgotten is the aspect of some of the dose being lost before it gets into the vein. Imperfect dissolution, soaking of the filters, damage from being cooked, and de-acetylation in the case of heroin (happens fast when in a hot solution), .. probably all can factor into things. Don't know how big of a factor though.
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    Default Re: Oxycodone oral bioavailability: high, but not 100%

    I'm not arguing at all, just looking for clarification, but the oxycontin fact sheet definitely states "PH independant"
    Are they simply referring to the speed of release from the matrix, or to BA?

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