Kratom Tolerance and Withdrawal

[Thebane]

Ok this is more than one question. The main thing I'm aiming at is using kratom to prevent mild depression and social anxiety.

I was reading the EDS thread and from many insightful comments from Jacky and HOM, who I hope will weigh in here, and others it seems like the main objection to using opoids as anti-depressants is the problem of tolerance and long-term depression/insomnia after withdrawal.

Kratom, unlike standard opiates, seems to have much milder withdrawal and tolerance issues. From what I can gather from reports of withdrawal on kratomforum.com it seems there are virtually no long-term symptoms such as depression or insomnia. And of course short-term symptoms are very mild, like a cold or flu, if the person has tapered down to a reasonable level, and the taper seems practically symptom-free.

Also, as a note, I've used kratom for 11 days straight and gotten the same effects from the same dose. And, admittedly, I'm also using it for the mild buzz, not solely the anti-depressant and anxiolytic effects.

This isn't a clear question but I guess I'm getting at does anyone have thoughts on the use of kratom for these purposes vs. normal opiates. And, does anyone have any scientific knowledge or guesses as to why kratom is so much less addictive. I was thinking maybe kratom doesn't cause the growth of receptors? And therefore tolerance doesn't build nearly as fast and withdrawal is so much easier.

[rachamim18]

First, it might be good for mild depression because as Rifat noted, and I always paraphrase, it is akin to a mild SSRI expereince.

As to why the addiction is considered to be mild, it is because it is not an opiate/opioid. It IS physically addictive but the mechanism is nowhere near as all encompassing as methadone,heroin, etc. addiction is.

[dreamybunz]

If you use kratom at lower, stimulant levels, then it doesn't appear to build much tolerance or addiction, in my experience. Addictiveness and tolerance only really become issues when used at higher levels with more analgesia and opiate-like effects. I use maybe 4 grams or so of kratom (mainly Malaysian) most mornings, and so long as I don't decide to treat myself by upping the amount for a couple of days then I never seem to develop tolerance. I can skip a few days with no noticeable withdrawal symptoms or even cravings, though I do only use it once daily.

If I let my amount go up to say 7 grams or so, then my tolerance rises quite rapidly, and I have to stop for a week or so to bring it back down, or I would soon be using 14g+ each morning. But I have learned to be content with the lower amount and I no longer let my tolerance begin to rise by giving myself 'treats'. I have never yet experienced any physical withdrawals from kratom of any kind, even when I stopped after letting my tolerance rise quite high. But I have read accounts of what sounded similar to full-blown opiate-style withdrawals from kratom, by people who had no opiate cross-addiction, so ymmv.

[Thebane]

Rach - Thanks for the input. I'd never heard of it being compared to an SSRI, but that does make sense. Rachamim, do you know happen to know much about how kratom works in relation to opiate receptors? I'm assuming it effects some opiate/opioid receptors because it eases withdrawals from the weaker opiates so much. Or if it doesn't do you know why it causes pinned pupils, urinary retention, constipation etc. If you don't think it has any opioid effects that's fine, I don't want to argue about it, just wanted to know if you have any insight on the matter.

dreamy - Thanks a lot for posting your experiences, thats that I was hoping for. I've noticed the same thing, I use low doses once or, occasionally, twice a day and have noticed no real decrease in effects. And even after using for a few weeks daily no withdrawal whatsoever.

[chemiKalz]

I just ordered 100grams of thai kratom, wtih 5g bali free, i have used capsules before, and tea, but is the best way to just spooon full that shit down? IM using it for pod w/d/quitting

[Thebane]

Yeah, getting it down plain is the most efficient way. If you're 100% sure the capsules dissolve relatively quickly then you could try that. But most people who try capsules at kratomforum.com say it doesn't work as well as "toss n' wash." (TnP)

I personally find TnP to be the easiest way to get kratom down. Its hard to explain and takes a little practice but once you get the technique down its relatively tasteless and not too unpleasant. First, you put a little water in your mouth, a teaspoon (or sip) or two. Hold it behind your teeth, in front of and below your tongue. Then you put kratom on a spoon, start with a small amount, say the size of a normal OTC pill. Then place this into the water, it's easy to do by sort of levering the spoon on your teeth, so it falls behind your teeth and hopefully onto the water your holding in our mouth in front of your tongue. Then sort of swish this water around to mix the kratom in it, so the kratom doesn't sit on top. Then take a few gulps of water as you swallow and it should all go down with little taste. This takes a few tries to perfect but once you get it down its a slow but painless process. And using grapefruit juice to potentiate and mask the taste even more works well. Or any juice if you don't have grapefruit will help mask the taste.


Heres how the guy who came up with it (jerrygarcirita) explains how to do at kratomforum.com: "I first take a sip of whatever liquid I'm using for the tossNwash (which is water or gatorade nowadays) and leave it at the bottom of my mouth like a puddle just sitting there. I then keep my mouth open and take about a 1/4 of a teaspoon (sometimes a 1/2) of powder and ever so slightly just deposit it in to the puddle. (I suppose a mirror might help, but I haven't tried that yet and could see that becoming a mess trying to tilt your mouth down far enough to see in it.)

I then start drinking my water/gatorade over the puddle/mud heap and then kind of just swallow everything at once while continuing to drink. On a good try it all goes down so smoothly that I don't even notice that I took anything but a big drink. On a crappy try I have to keep chugging whatever I'm drinking and get some of it off the roof of my mouth or wherever it happened to go."


The other method I used to use was to stir the kratom into half a cup of juice, and then proceed to chug it as quickly as possible. The taste is masked pretty well but the gritty texture is horrible, and made me gag. But it works.

I'd really recommend checking out kratomforum.com (with www. in front - don't want to link to it) if your trying to quit pods with it. Many people on there quit hydro with the help of kratom and there's alot of discussion on how best to do it. The general consensus seems to be to take as little as you can when you first start to get symptoms until they are bearable and keep doing that. I don't know if it will take most of wd symptoms away from pods though, even though it seems to from most people with moderate hydro habits.

Anyways, good luck with your kick, and if you have any questions about taking kratom or need me to clarify those methods of taking it feel free to ask.

[NastyZilla]

From what I can gather from reports of withdrawal on kratomforum.com it seems there are virtually no long-term symptoms such as depression or insomnia. And of course short-term symptoms are very mild, like a cold or flu, if the person has tapered down to a reasonable level, and the taper seems practically symptom-free.

Hey, Thebane, I am a member over there at the forum under another screen name ("reputation beyond repute" if you get my drift)... but BEWARE, the "kratom evangelists" over there will mislead the shit out of you regarding withdrawal. There have been several members who had SEVERE withdrawal symptoms, and they got totally blasted on the forum as "irresponsible" and all kinds of rude shit. No one posts their withdrawal symptoms other there anymore because they don't want to get slammed for being "stupid"; plus, the moderators think that using the word "addictive" in the same sentence with "kratom" will result in kratom being made illegal (which, unfortunately, is gonna happen before too long regardless, just my pessimistic opinion).

Not-so-funny thing, the addicts with the biggest prior addictions (one former H addict and a hydro addict with a former 300mg a day habit) were the least sensitive and supportive of the poor folks who ran out of kratom people and suffered w/d. The folks who ran out genuinely believed what they read on the forum about kratom never being more than "mildly" addictive... even tho' they were using large doses of extracts, particularly ultra enhanced Indonesian (UEI). One woman got so sick she ended up in the ER, see her posts under the screen name Jojoma36. Another guy, screen name MmmBacon, had similar withdrawal problems. In both instances, however, they were doing a lot of extracts, particularly UEI.

My personal opinion is that while kratom is a GODSEND for those of us who are trying to stretch their DOC or avoid w/d, kratom can cause serious physical dependency if ya "overdo it", esp with extracts.

Yeah, getting it down plain is the most efficient way. If you're 100% sure the capsules dissolve relatively quickly then you could try that. But most people who try capsules at kratomforum.com say it doesn't work as well as "toss n' wash." (TnP)

A lot of folks knock capsules at that forum, but they work fine for me. I recommend "The Capsule Machine", double zero (00) size capsules. Think about it - stomach acid is around 2-3 pH, right? Most capsules on the market today are advertised as dissolving in just a few seconds. I believe that most gelatin caps dissolve in water in 15 seconds, imagine how quick they'd go in stomach acid! Just my two cents on the matter. I've nearly puked too many times trying to eat spoons of that shit, and I got tired of wiping up the "dust" created when I choked and sprayed it everywhere. Capsules for me, thanks!

Best wishes on your kratom journeys, and beware of extracts. Everything I've heard leads me to believe it is easier to titrate down on kratom that just about anything other opiod/opiate.. but again, like most kratom stories, that's purely heresay.

[Thebane]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean by "kratom evangelists," they're the main reason I really don't post on it, or read much anymore. It's rather ridiculous how they jump on people who even hints that kratom may have some downsides. And how they trash new people who say they only use kratom recreationally, even though many of the older members do.

Personally, I mostly use Bali, I luckily can't afford to use a lot of extracts, so I don't need to worry to much about addiction. Thanks for the info about those other people though, I was hoping people would post their experiences and any other things they heard about kratom addiction here, since reports of withdrawal are covered up on the largest forum about kratom. Overall, I suppose its still much safer than pods, but it's still nice to know there is a potential for withdrawal, rather than finding out the hard way.

And about the capsules, yeah I've personally never tried them because I don't really have the money to spare for that luxury right now (haha I spend it all on pods and kratom, I guess they're not exactly essential items). But if you say they work then I take back my advice earlier and I'd definitely recommend chemikalz try them first because TnW is not completely painless, just better than the other ways of eating it without caps.

[kyuss]

If you use kratom at lower, stimulant levels, then it doesn't appear to build much tolerance or addiction, in my experience. Addictiveness and tolerance only really become issues when used at higher levels with more analgesia and opiate-like effects. I use maybe 4 grams or so of kratom (mainly Malaysian) most mornings, and so long as I don't decide to treat myself by upping the amount for a couple of days then I never seem to develop tolerance. I can skip a few days with no noticeable withdrawal symptoms or even cravings, though I do only use it once daily.

If I let my amount go up to say 7 grams or so, then my tolerance rises quite rapidly, and I have to stop for a week or so to bring it back down, or I would soon be using 14g+ each morning. But I have learned to be content with the lower amount and I no longer let my tolerance begin to rise by giving myself 'treats'. I have never yet experienced any physical withdrawals from kratom of any kind, even when I stopped after letting my tolerance rise quite high. But I have read accounts of what sounded similar to full-blown opiate-style withdrawals from kratom, by people who had no opiate cross-addiction, so ymmv.

Good post.
I like your posts
on entheogen.com too.

[rachamim18]

All these references to names like "Bali" or "Malayisan" are a waste of words. Only one plant of the genus has any documented psychoactive effects, { Speciosa} Mitragyna (Korth).

Thebane: Yes, Kratom DOES exhibit some opiate/opioid receptor activity as both an agonist (patrially on Mu) and as an antagonist, again with Mu although a separate sub-grouping. It is akin to Bupe in both its ability to help perople cease using illicit opiates/opioids and in its overall pharmokineticks.

You are correct that it causes abdominal motility, constipation, and contracted pupils but it is still not an opiate/opioid. Substances are classified not according to some or even all pyhsiological effect(s). They are classified by specific parameters. For brevity's sake I will not boar everyone with a long drawn out explanation on that issue. I just want to clarify this part because people do tend to assume that because it has SOME opiate/opioid attributes, it is an opiate/opioid.

"Opiate effect."" Sure has SOME effect but then one could argue the same about OTC Benadryl. It sedates and even lighten's one mood in alot of cases but to an experienced user or addict, even with true baseline tolerance, will not get much of anythimg. Most agree that if anything, it is akin to T3s, but then that is subjective even though it has been widely heard in other nations.

It is physically addictive and tolerance DOES occur.

Chemi: Using one physically addctive substance to W/D from another is not really sound BUT if you have control you can certainly accomplish it.

Nasty: Statistically speaking most extracts, especially online are nothing but garbage.

[Thebane]

All these references to names like "Bali" or "Malayisan" are a waste of words. Only one plant of the genus has any documented psychoactive effects, { Speciosa} Mitragyna (Korth).

Exactly, thats why people recommend bali, its the cheapest.

Thebane: Yes, Kratom DOES exhibit some opiate/opioid receptor activity as both an agonist (patrially on Mu) and as an antagonist, again with Mu although a separate sub-grouping. It is akin to Bupe in both its ability to help perople cease using illicit opiates/opioids and in its overall pharmokineticks.

You are correct that it causes abdominal motility, constipation, and contracted pupils but it is still not an opiate/opioid. Substances are classified not according to some or even all pyhsiological effect(s). They are classified by specific parameters. For brevity's sake I will not boar everyone with a long drawn out explanation on that issue. I just want to clarify this part because people do tend to assume that because it has SOME opiate/opioid attributes, it is an opiate/opioid.

"Opiate effect."" Sure has SOME effect but then one could argue the same about OTC Benadryl. It sedates and even lighten's one mood in alot of cases but to an experienced user or addict, even with true baseline tolerance, will not get much of anythimg. Most agree that if anything, it is akin to T3s, but then that is subjective even though it has been widely heard in other nations.

It is physically addictive and tolerance DOES occur.

Whats makes something an opioid then? I was under the impression it was binding to the opioid receptors? Obviously diphenhydramine doesn't do this, so I'm not sure why you used that as an example. Everything I've read, and what you just posted, says that some alkaloids of kratom do bind to the mu opioid receptor, and other opioid receptors. So does this not make it an opioid? Or do you want me to say it has "opioid activity" or some lengthy explanation every time I reference it?

[NastyZilla]

Nasty: Statistically speaking most extracts, especially online are nothing but garbage.

Having tried most of them, I disagree strongly. Perhaps we have purchased from different vendors.

[rachamim18]

Thebane: My reluctance, were I even willing to order online, would be with the nakme "Bali" because Bali is in Indonesia. In Indonesia only Javanica is known to exist. Mitrgyna only grows in two geographical areas, both very small: Southern Thailand/Northern Malaysia, and here on Mindanao.

On opiates/opioids.

Receptor activity has nothing to dowith classification although it is a good place to begin looking, as is structure. Opiates/opioids are classified by a number of criteria:

I) Cross tolerance. Kratom has none.

II) Action under antagonism. While Kratom DOES have antagonostic propeties on its own, this is referring to outside antagonism, like Naltrexone and Nalaxone. Kratom is not susceptible.

III) Tail flick. Kratom does not cause it.

IV) Abdominal motility. Kratom does not cause naseua or vomiting but a very slight motility is recorded by 2 papers.

Ther are a number of reasons actually. When you take all of them, and the fact that structurally is it akin to psilocybe (among other things), it is easy to see why it is not classified as opiate/opioid. It is an indole.

I used Benadryl as an analogy to explain that just because a substance has one or two traits normally associated with a class of compounds, it does not then mean that said substance belongs to said class.

On recectors. There IS SOME binding on a subset of Mu, dpending on dosages, but no other receptor.

On saying "opioid activity everytime you say it..." If given a choice, and I have no choice over what words you use would rather you not engage in disinformation but the choice is all yours. It is not long and drawn out though...to say "opioid type" as opposed to "opioid" is pretty simple really.

Zilla: I do not buy from Vendors. I live in an area where it grows naturally and abundantly but I do not do it in any regard. I am speaking in reference to various articles and papers that adress that issue. I am also offering, independant of that real proof, some common sense: If I am selling something that comes from a leaf but it is in a paste or powdered form, how do the customers know what they are getting?

[Thebane]

Ok, thanks for clearing up what constitutes an opioid.

And I assume you are talking about mitragynine? From what I've read 7-hydroxymitragynine is either partially or mostly responsible for the opioid type effects. Here's an easily found source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

And if you don't mind answering, what does that mean when it says 17x more potent than morphine? I'm assuming it doesn't mean analgesia or recreationally, at least not directly.

And I can assure you kratom is psychoactive . But I suppose you don't put much stock in that. On a side note, if you didn't know, pretty much all kratom comes from one bulk dealer. So, it is either all bunk or actually kratom (or some psychoactive substance).

[NastyZilla]

Rachamim, the vendors I buy extracts from make their own extracts. They're great. Some extracts (by some vendors) are better than others. UEI, ultra enhanced Indonesian, happens to be quite addictive in a number of people (reference: www.kratomforum.com users). It is very expensive, but you can fucking FEEL the quality difference.

BTW, you quote a clinical article on, I assume, RATS (hence the "tail flick" you refer to). Kratom most certainly causes nausea, and not just in me... in everyone I know, if they take too much.

Have you even tried kratom? Perhaps I'm not following your English, but it sounds like you haven't.

[I-Nod]

NZ, you seem very well-suited for this quick question... have you found any other "enhanced" Kratom very impressive, besides the UEI (which I hope to try now, after your endorsement!)? Nothing I've tried has brought any reasoning to paying 3-4 times more than regular ole commersh...

[kyuss]

Thebane: My reluctance, were I even willing to order online, would be with the nakme "Bali" because Bali is in Indonesia. In Indonesia only Javanica is known to exist. Mitrgyna only grows in two geographical areas, both very small: Southern Thailand/Northern Malaysia, and here on Mindanao.

On opiates/opioids.

Receptor activity has nothing to dowith classification although it is a good place to begin looking, as is structure. Opiates/opioids are classified by a number of criteria:

I) Cross tolerance. Kratom has none.

II) Action under antagonism. While Kratom DOES have antagonostic propeties on its own, this is referring to outside antagonism, like Naltrexone and Nalaxone. Kratom is not susceptible.

III) Tail flick. Kratom does not cause it.

IV) Abdominal motility. Kratom does not cause naseua or vomiting but a very slight motility is recorded by 2 papers.

Ther are a number of reasons actually. When you take all of them, and the fact that structurally is it akin to psilocybe (among other things), it is easy to see why it is not classified as opiate/opioid. It is an indole.

I used Benadryl as an analogy to explain that just because a substance has one or two traits normally associated with a class of compounds, it does not then mean that said substance belongs to said class.

On recectors. There IS SOME binding on a subset of Mu, dpending on dosages, but no other receptor.

On saying "opioid activity everytime you say it..." If given a choice, and I have no choice over what words you use would rather you not engage in disinformation but the choice is all yours. It is not long and drawn out though...to say "opioid type" as opposed to "opioid" is pretty simple really.

Zilla: I do not buy from Vendors. I live in an area where it grows naturally and abundantly but I do not do it in any regard. I am speaking in reference to various articles and papers that adress that issue. I am also offering, independant of that real proof, some common sense: If I am selling something that comes from a leaf but it is in a paste or powdered form, how do the customers know what they are getting?

If you just wrote
"Nope,blahblahblah"
you'd save a lot of time.

[tptptp]

If you just wrote
"Nope,blahblahblah"
you'd save a lot of time.

Sounds like my wife in bed.

[kyuss]

Sounds like my wife in bed.

you're married???

[rachamim18]

Thebane: There are 22 known alkaloids in it, the predominant one is Mitrgynine and recent work DOES say that 7-hydroxy should be the most responsbile for effects but I still feel it is Mitragynine. In any even , none are opiate/opioid.

"17x more potent than morphine." That can mean many things. In this context though it means that 7-hydroxy inihibted the flick 17 times better than morphine (and 30 X Mitragynine). I also have to say that 7-hydroxy's liaibilty for antagonism has been dispelled by the Thais (to date one of the alkaloids have been found susceptible) but the higher ability of 7-hydroxy (on twtich) is a solid finding.

"Assured that it is psychoactive." yes, I have done Kratom both in fresh leaf and powdered leaf extract (research level purity) as well as isolated mitragynine and 7-hydroxy. Kratom on its own has psychoactive potential, as do both the listed alkaloids. Problem though is that dosing is always iffy, availability for any of it outside of the scientific community (most of what is sold online and in head shops as Kratom,etc. is nonsense) is iffy as well. I personaly do not like it at all. It grows all over our propeties here ,wild, and suprisingly (knowing Philippine Drug Law) it is completely legal (for now). To me, and i am aping Rifat on this, it is like an SSRI. I never felt any opiate type of effect on it although many have said that they do. People I know well have told me they liken it to T3s. Tylenol #3 is a waste for expereinced users.

I am familiar with all the work being done, and that was done concerning Kratom and its alkaloids as W/D tools. As the participants in the NZ study noted, all they gained in using to W/D from MMT was a lot more vivid dreaming. To me it is not suprising knowing indoles. Not all had it though and even those that did did not find it actually helped in W/D.

"One bulk dealer." No, that was the case about 4 years ago if you are talking about the man in France. His stuff by the way was found to be Javanica and not actual Kratom. This then resulted in at least one peer reviwed paper as well as dEA Intel reporting. They located disparetely sourced products and chromed them. Some of the alkaloidal material present in those products were indole but that is where the similaity ended. Since that episode most distributors have gone afield in find sources.


Kyuss: Again, as in the other thread, stop insulting me and concentrate on the issues being discussed. Pretty simnple, yes? As for things going right over your head (apparently), others might gain some benefit. Can you truly say the same about anything you post?

Nasty: Indonesian is a catchphrase for Javanica, not Mitrgyna. Javanica is the Indonesian cousin of Kratom, and even though it does have indoles, Mitragynine is paticulat to Mitragyna. Javanica is not known to have any opiate/opioid receptor affinity.

"Tail flick." All rodents exhibit this phenomenon and it s astandardised way of ascertaining the nature of alkaloids. To describe it plainly, it is akin to the shudder men expereince when urinating. It is an involuntary response.

"Naseau." Although I have never felt it nor seen any others, snd it is an unknown side effect if it exists, I have no problem accepting that you felt it. I would say though that number 1, you really do not know what you were taking (not an insult mind you, simply common sense with the addition of your subjective reporting on "Indonesian"), and 2, It in itself means nothing. We all know alcohol makes many naseaous and yet I imagine we would all agree that we can agree that alcohol is in no danger of being reclassified as an opiate/opioid.

You added though , "...if you take too muhc." I am not trying to be flippant or arrogant but anmything taken in excess can do that: carrots, water, etc. That would not prove anything from a scientific point of view.

"Have I tried Kratom?" Yes, many times, as well as Mitragynine and 7-hydroxy. I am a degreed botanist and am able to get the ioslated alkaloids, as well as being able to extract them myself, as well as living in one of the 3 areas in the worldf where the plant grows naturally.

[Thebane]

Well people on kratomforum.com swear by its effects helping with hydro w/ds, usually prescribed amounts. Obviously this is hardly comparable to methadone maintenance.

And all small US on-lime sellers: z-eclectic, speciosa, flager cafe, jenny mac, bouncing bear, IAS etc. get their kratom from wholesameshamanic herbs. And I'm pretty sure one company or corporation or organization (whatever it may be called) ships all the kratom coming out of South Asia. Obviously a small vendor could just sell a green powder, but it would quickly go out of business if it didn't match the effects of all the other kratom sold. This is all from second-hand sources, but mostly the vendors themselves who post all the time at kratom forum.

I'm aware of the French bunk kratom, again that wasn't from the South Asian corporation to my knowledge.

[kyuss]

Kyuss: As for things going right over your head (apparently), others might gain some benefit. Can you truly say the same about anything you post?

You're right.
It's all a waste of time.
Like marriage,hope,and detoxing.
The void is the only truth.
The difference between you and I
is I realize I'm full of shit.
Maybe you'll have this realization soon enough.

[tptptp]

Nah was just fucking artound...haha

If I ever get married slap me with reality and shoot me

[rachamim18]

Thebane: Sure, by focusing on anything else, including food you can make W/Ds a bit more bearable. However, there have been trials with it and it failed miserably. One, most agree and I cannot offer anything on this because I have been opiate/opioid dependant since my teenage years, that opiatenaive people WILL gain some effect from it. I do not know anyone from the site you referenced but it is safe to say that ALL subjective reasoning is faulty.

For example, I would wager that among people on this site, I have done the most of this substance. In university I focused on poppy (Papaver Somniferum and Bracteatum) but did a bit of work with Kratom and this led to work on its isolated alkaloids. Prior to receiving my degree I performed my internship at Chulalongkorn U. in Thailand. The university provides lab pure Mitragynine and 7-hydroxy. Having been given unrestricted access, or almost unrestricted, I indulged quite a bit. Now living here on Mindanao I am living in 1 of the only two geographical areas on the planet in which it grows naturally.

I have ALOT of subjective experience with this substance but would never dream of offering that as proof of anything save my OPINION. I try to remove my inherent bias by posting factually with as little emotion as possible.

[tptptp]

Kratom has saved my friends butt several times from pod WD...you can even catch a mild buzz throughout the first couple days when WD is hitting hard and have the worst of WD pass you by. I'm glad this herb is downplayed. It beats the hell out of bupe.

[I-Nod]

Well people on kratomforum.com swear by its effects helping with hydro w/ds, usually prescribed amounts. Obviously this is hardly comparable to methadone maintenance.

And all small US on-lime sellers: z-eclectic, speciosa, flager cafe, jenny mac, bouncing bear, IAS etc. get their kratom from wholesameshamanic herbs. And I'm pretty sure one company or corporation or organization (whatever it may be called) ships all the kratom coming out of South Asia. Obviously a small vendor could just sell a green powder, but it would quickly go out of business if it didn't match the effects of all the other kratom sold. This is all from second-hand sources, but mostly the vendors themselves who post all the time at kratom forum.

I'm aware of the French bunk kratom, again that wasn't from the South Asian corporation to my knowledge.

You're right, man... if you buy from a reputable dealer, you are getting Kratom. After the faux-kratom a few years back, they had the new product tested by gas chromatography - mass spectrometry and it was verified to be Kratom. You can buy whole leaf, or at least you used to be able too... haven't tried in a couple years myself. But, by buying the whole leaf and some careful inspection, you should be able to distinguish whether it is Kratom or Javanica.

Jacky (one of the phounders of Ophile) has done a lot of experimenting w/ Kratom and the other specifically isolated alkaloids (lab grade). Do an Advanced Search for "kratom" and type Jacky into the "posts by user" box and you should come up w/ quite a few intelligent and enlightening posts on the subject.

It also works well, from my experiences.... so it's rather redundant for anyone else to debate this w/ you, as they are YOUR experiences. Who could argue that?

Oh... and that table salt you use every day at dinner time... it's not real salt! It's just a medium-density polymer grain bathed in a low-grade chemical specially made to react w/ the epithelial cells (taste buds) on your tongue. I'm one of the few people in the history of mankind to have had real salt, so trust me when I say you are merely experiencing placebo effects when you eat this palt (short for polymer-salt)...
Eh... as long as it works, ya know?

[rachamim18]

What do you mean abouty salt? Salt is sodium chloride. OR do you mean salt as in alkaloidal salts?

[tptptp]

Kratom helps pod withdrawal speaking for myself and others...which hits very nastily. I WISH I could find a food that did this.

I was skeptical of this stuff too. I still have gotten higher off kratom then ANYTHING i've ever taken...granted I was still fairly new to opiates I'd been using for several motnhs but used one month straight finally and stopped. My first WD kicked in to a hard level really quick, quicker then it ever has to this day.....i got up all nastily fucked up twitching over the pot hoping it would work

down close to 30g made into a tea and boy was I COMPLETELY FUCKING ANIHLATED I finally laid back down and was exhausted cause i had tossed and turned all night and after a long ass kratom cook it was like 6ish? im not sure if i fell alseep but i was out in a very good way and I had some thoughts running through my mind that I would normally think were gross that I loved! haha, gotten very nice off it a few other times but its unpredictable some times arent that good at all. I remembere it used to do some weird shit with dreams if taken anytime before bed and falling asleep would be different like i would move my fingers in my sleep or something as i was falling asleeop and dream about it...hard to explain just very un natural for me.

Kratom has saved my ass from pod WD. Beats tramadol big time...I'd rather have a big stash of kratom then a big stash of bupe even if it was given in doses that would ONLY take away WD and provide no high.....cuz even at that level its not as depressing as bupe.

[Saint]

I tried kratom (two different 'online'-kinds; both 'from Bali') and at the time I thought it wouldn't do shit. (I absolutely distrust anything that isn't a real opiate..)
I'd tapered from 50 to 7.5 mgs of methadon and felt very sick. I was living in Spain at the time and I could not get my hands on anything else. So I ordered some kratom.

My experience was that it did help; I was surprised to notice that it took some of the WD-symptoms away. (Mostly restlessnes, tearing, yawning and sneezing in my case).
However, like subuxone, it felt like 'it did not touch all the receptors that needed to be touched'.
It's definitely not a miracle-cure but it did give some relief. But that's just my experience.
I only used a teaspoon of it so I was pleasantly surprised that it did anything at all. However, it did not do anything as far as pain is concerned and whenever I tried to take more it made me nauseous as hell. Not a 'good' nausea like one has on first time heroine but a really awful ungoing nausea.

Concluding: I think kratom might be worth trying for anyone with a mild addiction & in withdrawals but it's definitely not a wonderdrug.
I still have a big bag of kratom rotting away in my closet and haven't touched it since. Not even when I was in major withdrawals while I switched from methadone to subs.
So I guess it's all or nothing for me.

[tptptp]

I tried kratom (two different 'online'-kinds; both 'from Bali') and at the time I thought it wouldn't do shit. (I absolutely distrust anything that isn't a real opiate..)
I'd tapered from 50 to 7.5 mgs of methadon and felt very sick. I was living in Spain at the time and I could not get my hands on anything else. So I ordered some kratom.

My experience was that it did help; I was surprised to notice that it took some of the WD-symptoms away. (Mostly restlessnes, tearing, yawning and sneezing in my case).
However, like subuxone, it felt like 'it did not touch all the receptors that needed to be touched'.
It's definitely not a miracle-cure but it did give some relief. But that's just my experience.
I only used a teaspoon of it so I was pleasantly surprised that it did anything at all. However, it did not do anything as far as pain is concerned and whenever I tried to take more it made me nauseous as hell. Not a 'good' nausea like one has on first time heroine but a really awful ungoing nausea.

Concluding: I think kratom might be worth trying for anyone with a mild addiction & in withdrawals but it's definitely not a wonderdrug.
I still have a big bag of kratom rotting away in my closet and haven't touched it since. Not even when I was in major withdrawals while I switched from methadone to subs.
So I guess it's all or nothing for me.

it does make some people sick and they can't handle it.....one teaspoon isnt shit though, even if it was an extract it probably wasnt much cuz extracts tend to suck.

I'd take at least 1 tablespoon if eaten. I'd say its pretty close to a wonder drug, I believe thats what the owner of the site manages with now.....much of its wonder drug persona right now though is that it's legal. Just like anything though you need to have enough and be able to handle it. It definitely helps, saved my ass plenty of times.

I'd gladly take that bag off your hands ;p