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View Full Version : Heroin/Morphine vs all other opioids


TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 02:24 PM
ok I came across this scientific study comparing morphine/heroin to other opioids in post-addicts and these were the results: THIS IS A MUST READ! VERY INTERESTING!


Morphine is a highly addictive substance. Its abuse potential is among the highest of all drugs known to man. Compared to other narcotic pain relievers, such as codeine, hydrocodone, and oxycodone, morphine is considerably more liable for abuse and dependence. More potent narcotics, such as, hydromorphone and fentanyl have high abuse potential, but still less then that of morphine. Only heroin, which is nearly identical to morphine, is comparable in dependence liability. Physical dependence and withdrawal symptoms can appear after only five days of administration. In a Japanese study, mice, which received morphine (10 mg kg-1 s.c.) twice a day for 5 days showed withdrawal syndromes such as jumping, rearing and forepaw tremor following naloxone challenge (5 mg kg-1 i.p.) on the 6th day.[18] Such mice exhibited a significant elevation of cyclic AMP levels in the thalamus compared to control mice.[19] Brown University Professor Julie Kauer and colleagues found as little as a single dose of morphine could contribute to addiction. A single dose of morphine can block a process in the brain associated with learning and memory for as long as a full day after being ingested. In a study, researchers found long-term potentiation, or LTP, is blocked in the brains of rats given as little as a single dose of morphine. The drug's impact was very powerful, with LTP continuing to be blocked 24 hours later -- long after the drug was out of the animal's system.

In a study comparing the physiological and subjective effects of heroin and morphine administered intravenously in post-addicts, the post-addicts showed no preference for one or the other of these drugs when administered on a single injection basis. Equipotent doses of these drugs had quite comparable action time courses when administered intravenously, and on this basis there was no difference in their ability to produce feelings of "euphoria," ambition, nervousness, relaxation, drowsiness, or sleepiness.[20] Although the heroin abstinence syndrome was of shorter duration than that of morphine, the peak intensity was quite comparable for the two drugs. Data acquired during short-term addiction studies did not support the statement that tolerance develops more rapidly to heroin than to morphine. These findings have been discussed in relation to the physicochemical properties of heroin and morphine and the metabolism of heroin. When compared to other opioids -- hydromorphone, fentanyl, oxycodone, and meperidine, post-addicts showed a strong preference to heroin and morphine over the others, suggesting that heroin and morphine are more liable to abuse and addiction. Morphine and heroin were also much more likely to produce feelings of "euphoria", and other subjective effects when compared to most other opioid analgesics.[21][22]

Diamorphine (Heroin) was derived from morphine in 1874. Heroin is approximately 1.5-2 times more potent than morphine on a mg for mg basis. Using a variety of subjective and objective measures, the relative potency of heroin to morphine administered intravenously to post-addicts found 1.80 mg of morphine sulfate equals to 1 mg of heroin.[15] Heroin, though not an alkaloid, is also an opiate. The pharmacology of heroin and morphine is identical except that the two acetyl groups slightly increase the lipid solubility of the heroin molecule, and thus the molecule enters the brain a bit more rapidly, making the heroin molecule slightly more potent.[1] The additional groups are then detached, yielding morphine, which is the molecule that binds to the opioid receptors and produces analgesia, sedation, and other effects. In this case, heroin is just a prodrug for the delivery of systemic morphine. Simply put, "heroin" is just a means of systemic delivery of morphine, and is is thus non-existent.[2]

OxyContinuously
05-21-2007, 02:28 PM
this is a very flawed study; don't believe everything you read.

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 02:32 PM
why would it be flawed?

it's a scientific research paper that was peer-reviewed and accepted as fact.
the opinion of opioid users doesn't mean much in comparison to a science paper

OxyContinuously
05-21-2007, 02:37 PM
why would it be flawed?

it's a scientific research paper that was peer-reviewed and accepted as fact.
the opinion of opioid users doesn't mean much in comparison to a science paper


Listen, before you post things like this which are all over the place, and contain very little useful information, how bout reading through them once or twice, eh?

And peer reviewed by whom? For example. Just because something is published doesn't mean it's necessarily fact; that's all I'm saying.

Hey, you know what? Who am i to argue with this? Enjoy it!! After all, this is just, how do you so eloquently say, "the opinion of an opioid user."


later

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 02:44 PM
well, show the flaws in the study if you can? what do you have that disproves anything in it?

i was surprised with it also, because as an opioid user myself, i tend to like oxycodone over other stronger opioids. So everyone is going to have a different opinion. But this study was done on post-addicts who had no idea what they were being given and all showed preference to morphine and heroin over oxycodone, hydromorphone, fentanyl and demerol (those were the ones they were compared to only). But, the post-addicts showed no preference between morphine and heroin, which basically means they were too similar for the post-addicts to distinguish.

remember, these subjects were given IV, not oral or anything like that.

OxyContinuously
05-21-2007, 02:51 PM
well, show the flaws in the study?

i was surprised with it also, because as an opioid user myself, i tend to like oxycodone over other stronger opioids. So everyone is going to have a different opinion. But this study was done on post-addicts who had no idea what they were being given and all showed preference to morphine and heroin over oxycodone, hydromorphone, fentanyl and demerol (those were the ones they were compared to only). But, the post-addicts showed no preference between morphine and heroin, which basically means they were too similar for the post-addicts to distinguish.

remember, these subjects were given IV, not oral or anything like that.

yeah that's what i meant too, actually. I would have expected different results, is what i mean to say. Don't take that as an insult or anything like that, dude. It's kind of interesting to me that the heroin and morphine were preferred over any of the other ones. If anything, I would have thought that maybe the hydromorphone, or even the Fent would have been at the top, and then the morph, and heroin.

You know, I don't shoot stuff, personally (don't have a thing against it; just not for me, that's all ;-) but I found it interesting when the paper was describing how ex-addicts were as happy with morph, as they were with heroin itself.

I would have thought the opposite-- maybe heroin first, then morphine; a couple buddies that *do* shoot always tell me that morphine feels similar to heroin, as opposed to, i dunno, maybe an OC, but that they can definitely tell the diff. if it's morphine or heroin.

you know what prob had a big effect on their final decision, was that they were not told wha they got--either H or morph, so this way they couldn't form any prejudices about either of them.

that is definitely interesting.

PS---> "flawed" was a poor choice of words; I should have said incomplete (only in the sense that i would have liked if the people who made the paper went into a little more detail, that's all, like maybe if they monitored brain activity or EEGs with the morph and the heroin, then compared the two-- that would have been pretty intere4sting too)

later
peace out

Oxy

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 02:59 PM
I know exactly what you are saying. it's a very interesting study.
but whats most interesting is that they were able to distinguish (and prefer) morphine and heroin from hydromorph, fent, oxy and demerol - - but they werent able to tell the difference between heroin and morphine.
they are saying that heroin is identical to morphine. basically, heroin *IS* morphine is what i'm getting from this. because they are saying that heroin is "non-existent", it only exists in the external form.

like imagine morphine being some type of car, say a corvette - it's fast and nice. But when take the corvette engine out and replace it with a ferrari engine, then it becomes faster and gets you to where you wanna go quicker. They are saying that "heroin" is only a vehicle to get morphine to the brain faster than morphine can do it on its own.

that's what i am getting

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 03:11 PM
Another thing, I wonder how Oxymorphone would have fared vs morphine and heroin?

I think it might have been the one that would have beat out both, maybe.

They should have replaced the demerol with oxymorphone.

chemboy7
05-21-2007, 03:23 PM
Well, if Herion carries more Morphine acrossed the BBB faster then Heroin would have a better rush so those using IV esspecially would prefer H over M. The whole reason to shoot is the rush, the instantaneous effects... the H is faster so it wins hands down. While it is true that H turns to Morphine in the body, it also has metabolites that Morphine does not, such as 6-MAM. 6-MAM is reported to be more euphoric than both Morphine and Heroin, and I would imagine atleast the majority of common pharms, so that is going to sway the addicts into wanting to shoot the H instead of the M too. And what about those sometimes annoying histamine reactions that occur with Morphine and not as severe with Heroin? I don't know who the hell those "post addicts" were that signed up for this study or what doses they administered with each drug (i.e. they may have given a small shot of H compared with a large shot of M) but if the ones giving the drugs/tests didn't tamper with the experiment then they were pretty ignorant junkies. You most definately can tell the difference between Heroin and Morphine, it's all in the rush.

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 03:29 PM
But you have to remember that morphine itself produces an intense rush and it says:

"The pharmacology of heroin and morphine is identical except that the two acetyl groups slightly increase the lipid solubility of the heroin molecule, and thus the molecule enters the brain a bit more rapidly, making the heroin molecule slightly more potent."


key words in that are "slightly" and "bit", not no "hands down".

chemboy7
05-21-2007, 03:32 PM
Yeah man, I'm not saying that Morphine doesn't have a rush... it does, but it's nothing compared to the rush that Heroin gives. Don't even come close, apples and oranges.

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 03:39 PM
obviously, that is what I think also. It is common knowledge that heroin produces a stronger rush. But i think a lot of that is subjective. since the higher lipid solubility of heroin is only "slight", in a more lab setting where you don't know what yuo are getting its going to be hard to tell and its especially confusing when you are basically being given two drugs that are essentially just one drug. like i said, heroin is only a "vehicle" that delivers morphine to the brain in higher concentrations and morphine is what causes all the subjective effects of "heroin".

I would have thought that the dilaudid would be picked by all because its rush is supposed to be even better than heroin and morphines, but its "high" is no where as good as either.

chemboy7
05-21-2007, 03:44 PM
^^^ That's really a bad way to look at Heroin, saying it's just a vehicle for Morphine. It is true, but only partially. While it does take Morphine acrossed the BBB faster, it also has active metabolites of it's own that Morphine does not. Herion is a drug of it's own, not some souped up Morphine.

TsarBomba
05-21-2007, 03:53 PM
i know its a bad way to look at it, and its confusing also.

but, even though heroin is not an alkaloid - it is still considered an OPIATE, as opposed to OPIOID. thats because it is so similar to morphine - in that paper it says "heroin" is non-existent. the metabolites that are active in heroin (2 of them i think), don't come anywhere near the concentrations of morphine that results out of heroin use. in reality when yuo think about it, heroin and even codeine really are "souped" just up morphine.

fuck this man, too confusing for me.

chemboy7
05-21-2007, 04:06 PM
i know its a bad way to look at it, and its confusing also.

but, even though heroin is not an alkaloid - it is still considered an OPIATE, as opposed to OPIOID. thats because it is so similar to morphine - in that paper it says "heroin" is non-existent. the metabolites that are active in heroin (2 of them i think), don't come anywhere near the concentrations of morphine that results out of heroin use. in reality when yuo think about it, heroin and even codeine really are "souped" just up morphine.

fuck this man, too confusing for me.

I don't want to argue man, but saying that just because Heroin is a semisynthetic Opaite and not a completely synthetic Opoid that it is a "souped up Morphine" is ignorant. It is a completely different chemical, not some other form of Morphine. Sure, it's in the same class of Opaite agonists, but so is Hydrocodone. The pharmacology is similiar, yes, but it is it's own chemical with it's own metabolites. Calling Heroin a souped up Morphine is like calling pharm Opaites "synthetic Heroin"... I correct people that use that terminology too.

Woowoo
05-21-2007, 04:34 PM
remember, these subjects were given IV, not oral or anything like that.
Where do I sign up??? I'll be a subject!! I want to help advance scientific knowledge :D

SCUD
05-21-2007, 04:36 PM
Where do I sign up??? I'll be a subject!! I want to help advance scientific knowledge :D

WooWoo you sign us up ill pay for the trip!!!!!!

psychotiKK
05-22-2007, 03:11 AM
Yeah man, I'm not saying that Morphine doesn't have a rush... it does, but it's nothing compared to the rush that Heroin gives. Don't even come close, apples and oranges.

I agree.. This "study" is basically saying diacetylmorphine is stronger, or equal to morphine when given intravenously. There are differences that are easily noticeable between the two. Morphine is strong, but it's not of the same equivalence as heroin. Chemistry can prove that.