non opiod based drugs

[itsnotahabbit]

is anyone into "rave" type drugs when you cant find your perferred anelgesic? i'm talkin about drugs such as ketamine, crystal meth, pcp, extacy, cocaine ect. alltho none of these drugs (as far as i know) can help with withdrawl symptoms. does anyone just enjoy the change. myself, i like to do ketamine. this shit really fucks you up. i describe the high as being "bent" and "confused" i used to goto alot of raves when i was younger and i did alot of meth and extacy and coke. i think "k" is just fun stuff to do with a bunch of friends.

what are your thoughts?

[Chemical_Boy]

I used to do a lot of coke, meth, and my all time favorite- herb!!

Also acid, mushrooms, E, K, nitrous, etc.

My fav was weed, followed by hallucinogens, followed by booze. I also liked combos- E and K were great. Also weed with anything.

You get the picture. These days I only take doctor prescribed stuff, so xanax and my antidepressants that help me sleep are tops!

[OCfenatiq]

is anyone into "rave" type drugs when you cant find your perferred anelgesic? i'm talkin about drugs such as ketamine, crystal meth, pcp, extacy, cocaine ect. alltho none of these drugs (as far as i know) can help with withdrawl symptoms. does anyone just enjoy the change. myself, i like to do ketamine. this shit really fucks you up. i describe the high as being "bent" and "confused" i used to goto alot of raves when i was younger and i did alot of meth and extacy and coke. i think "k" is just fun stuff to do with a bunch of friends.

what are your thoughts?
Yea I used to go to raves every weekend just about for a few years a while back myself, although usually I was candyflippin' at 'em (I don't know, thats what we called trippin and taking E together) all the cool stuff about trippin without some of the bad effects since the E made you feel great...Fun stuff...
I'm with you on K being fun just with a few friends, although could be at a rave as well...I've mentioned this before but once at rave myself and 2 friends got 5 E pills that were the shape of a clover in line before we got in. I had one and each friend had 2 apeice. Needless to say these were not E pills after all, they were filled with K. I was so dizzy I could barely walk for while and my friends couldn't..literally..they just sat on the couch in the balcony inside the rave all night throwing up every so often. I found the guy who sold them to us later and he told me it was K, we were all pissed at him but couldn't do anything about it since it was so strong. Once the K wore off I got my hands on some real E and loaded up and got that feelin' away. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy K but when you expect to roll and that kicks in it is unpleasant at least.
Later on Ice became big in the raves we were going to so that started up for a while...can be fun but try to stay away from that junk...

You mentioned PCP, is that even around anymore? Isn't that embalming fluid? Don't know but of what you mentioned that I've never seen in this area...

[flipside]

^^I personally have not seen or even heard of any PCP around since the 80's.

[greenfox]

^^I personally have not seen or even heard of any PCP around since the 80's.

its around hon.. just not very popular. :)

[Papa Verine]

^^I personally have not seen or even heard of any PCP around since the 80's.

You can buy PCP on the street in Chicago. I used to buy it A lot but it causes too many problems. Like, for example, hitting a moving train with your car and being spun around a couple times at a crossing, carrying on like nothing happened...

It's called wicki, wicki water (liquid), wicki stick (soaked joint), dunk, and the powder form is called "Tick"

My days of fucking with PCP are long over!

[OxyContinuously]

What's up, dude. Yeah I like all that shit. I am very fortunate to be in a position to synthesize whenever the hell i want---> 2CB, 2CE (my favorite), 2C**, you get the idea?<--- I have also worked extensively w/ methylone, and most analogues of amphetamine and phenethylamine. my true treasure trove, however are the indole psychedelics: DPT, acid itself, FoxyMethoxy (5MeO-DiPT), and recently, the tetramethylene "substituted pyrrolidine tryptamines"

Actually Jacky (the founder of this site, and a veritable bank of knowledge regarding ALL herbals, and things of that nature--- SMART mofo ;-) and I were discussing chemistry the other day, and I was tellin'him of a project i am working on in my laboratory. (I am an organic chemist by trade) What i am trying to synthesize, is a compound that has a "methoxy" on the '5 position' of the carbon ring, but instead of a mundane substitution like -propyl, -isopropyl, -methyl, etc.etc, I am taking on the challenge of the tetramethylene ring. Challenge I say, cause this shit can be downright toxic, depending on what it is bonded with, but more importantly, WHERE on the ring it sits. Boths syntheses *will* in fact work, in other words---> it's just that one will be complete poison, and the other one will be a treasure with suspected strong agonist activity at the mu receptor. If all goes as planned, this new compund that I am working on will have a strength on the order of alpha fentanyls, and synthetics of that nature. I will keep everyone posted, as i make progress, then after the tryptamine is finished, I plan to start work on a phenethylamine that follows the "2,5-dimethoxy-" outline, with something fun on position number 4 (the ONLY position in phenethylamine chemistry that can produce fantastic and often drastic results) of the carbon ring.

And oh yeah, K is cool, but I don't like going into the "hole," per se. i am comfortable with the detachment, but still being able to move around, albeit clumsily and often looking like I had a bit too much to drink!!

later man

OxyC

[itsnotahabbit]

^^I personally have not seen or even heard of any PCP around since the 80's.


i actually made PCP once. i was told its made from a chemical called ROMPIN, witch is used a a hore tranqulizer by vets. so when i was working on a horse farm one summer in high school, sure as shit, i found said ROMPIN. followed some easy steps to manufacture the dope, and we had a fuckin blast for a few weeks. the shit fucked us right up. those were the good days!

[SuperJunky]

I constantly take a plethora of drugs, can't say I always enjoy it (though I do ingest them for hedonist reasons). K's one of my favorite drugs ever. Despite what everyone says I use it IV, and I've IVed a dose large enough to send me to the whole and I had plenty of time to get the rig out of my arm and rinse it out, walk outof the bathroom and make it to the couch, light a cig and drop in.

Oxy- Are you saying a tryptamine w/ mu opio activity? And as strong as a fent anolog? Is this pretty common for the mu or other opi receptors w/ other tryptamines, I've notived DMT can block WD and have heard this about other tryptamines.

[Chipper]

K's one of my favorite drugs ever. Despite what everyone says I use it IV, and I've IVed a dose large enough to send me to the whole and I had plenty of time to get the rig out of my arm and rinse it out, walk outof the bathroom and make it to the couch, light a cig and drop in.

...and here's me thinking I'm the only one who goes the IV route with K. However, I don't see how you could take a dose that gets you in the K-hole (for me that's about 100mg.) and still walk around before it hits. It takes me 5 seconds before I have to, no - NEED TO, lie down

[SuperJunky]

...and here's me thinking I'm the only one who goes the IV route with K. However, I don't see how you could take a dose that gets you in the K-hole (for me that's about 100mg.) and still walk around before it hits. It takes me 5 seconds before I have to, no - NEED TO, lie down

I commonly IV 30-45mg just for the weird head space stimulant efects, and before that I regularly snorted 60mg, and started IV it w/ dope, like 20mg K w/ a 1/2G of dope. That was weird. But I can boot a little under a 100mg (I only way 120lbs. and am 6+' tall) and keep functioning for a few minutes then lie down and hit the whole, it's like I'm small dose dmt triping before I lie down, but I can handle it, esp if I've had some dope or dope and coke.

-EDIT- I really atribute my ability to remain functioning to all my DXM use. People always said K was a lot stronger than DXM but I thought DXM was a lot "harder" of a drug. I used to binge on it daily for months, atleast 180mgs a day and that low of a dose was rare, and to top it off I constantly smoked weed and did coke/rock and dope when ever I could get my hands on it.

[Chipper]

SJ, I weigh about 155lbs, btw. I'm giving you points for being able to function on that dose - you're one tough dude.

[drugsaregood]

I wouldn't try PCP \ Wet personally. Seen too many episodes of cops where crazy dudes are unstopable on that stuff, get themselves tazed and beat down. No thanks...

[SuperJunky]

PCP's the only "common" dissasociative I havn't tried. I would love to get my hands on some. I had weed once that was supposedly laced w/ pcp but I think it was laced w/ something else, maybe K or coke or god knows what.

[robojunkie]

What's up, dude. Yeah I like all that shit. I am very fortunate to be in a position to synthesize whenever the hell i want---> 2CB, 2CE (my favorite), 2C**, you get the idea?<--- I have also worked extensively w/ methylone, and most analogues of amphetamine and phenethylamine. my true treasure trove, however are the indole psychedelics: DPT, acid itself, FoxyMethoxy (5MeO-DiPT), and recently, the tetramethylene "substituted pyrrolidine tryptamines"

Actually Jacky (the founder of this site, and a veritable bank of knowledge regarding ALL herbals, and things of that nature--- SMART mofo ;-) and I were discussing chemistry the other day, and I was tellin'him of a project i am working on in my laboratory. (I am an organic chemist by trade) What i am trying to synthesize, is a compound that has a "methoxy" on the '5 position' of the carbon ring, but instead of a mundane substitution like -propyl, -isopropyl, -methyl, etc.etc, I am taking on the challenge of the tetramethylene ring. Challenge I say, cause this shit can be downright toxic, depending on what it is bonded with, but more importantly, WHERE on the ring it sits. Boths syntheses *will* in fact work, in other words---> it's just that one will be complete poison, and the other one will be a treasure with suspected strong agonist activity at the mu receptor. If all goes as planned, this new compund that I am working on will have a strength on the order of alpha fentanyls, and synthetics of that nature. I will keep everyone posted, as i make progress, then after the tryptamine is finished, I plan to start work on a phenethylamine that follows the "2,5-dimethoxy-" outline, with something fun on position number 4 (the ONLY position in phenethylamine chemistry that can produce fantastic and often drastic results) of the carbon ring.

And oh yeah, K is cool, but I don't like going into the "hole," per se. i am comfortable with the detachment, but still being able to move around, albeit clumsily and often looking like I had a bit too much to drink!!

later man

OxyC

Oxy, I was reading this recently and trying to figure out (as a synthetic OC myself) why this would be expected to have such powerful MOR effects. You are referring to the N,N-tetramethylene (pyrrolidine) tryptamine derivative, right? I believe the pentamethylene is a known compound, or at least the non-aromatically substituted version, which is supposed to be orally active as a psychedelic. Am I misunderstanding the placement of the pyrrolidine ring system? Just for my curiosity could you elaborate on the SAR or whatever that leads you to suspect this powerful opiate potential? "Anilinoid"/indole version of a thiambutene moiety? Just kinda confused as I would love to know of an existing or potentially existing compound that would be producible in the way this would:)!!!

[Badly Drawn Girl]

is anyone into "rave" type drugs when you cant find your perferred anelgesic? i'm talkin about drugs such as ketamine, crystal meth, pcp, extacy, cocaine ect.

The only thing I've tried from the above list is coke, crack to be specific. And I loved it a bit too much. :p

[HeidiW]

I used to make crystal meth. and crank. (there is a difference between the two) Not since I switched to opiates, though. It's harder and harder to get the large quantities of ephedrine needed to make a batch, as Congress stepped in and made Federal laws controlling it. It's ironic, when I go to Walgreen's to pick up my Dilaudid and Methadone, I don't have to show my ID. But to buy a box of Sudafed, I have to show my ID and sign some sort of 'registry'.

What kind of motherfucking Nazism is that shit??

[insanesteveo]

I used to make crystal meth. and crank. (there is a difference between the two) Not since I switched to opiates, though. It's harder and harder to get the large quantities of ephedrine needed to make a batch, as Congress stepped in and made Federal laws controlling it. It's ironic, when I go to Walgreen's to pick up my Dilaudid and Methadone, I don't have to show my ID. But to buy a box of Sudafed, I have to show my ID and sign some sort of 'registry'.

What kind of motherfucking Nazism is that shit??

if you think about it heidi, the pharmacy already has all your information, and so does your doctor. they have you tracked more tightly then those people buying sudafed.

[chemboy7]

^^I personally have not seen or even heard of any PCP around since the 80's.

Oh the sherman still pop's his head up every once in awhile. Usually as some dickhead's misrepresentation of another less demonized and more popular drug. It's been few and far between but I have actually had the loveboat sold to me as PCP (as advertised) a few times in the last year/year and a half or so... also ate some mushrooms that turned out to be shitty mushrooms (even Psilocybin?) that were saturated with the stuff. Don't mix Nitrous Oxide with PCP kid's, bad stuff happens. I didn't need this warning before my fuck up, then again I had no idea I had consumed PCP til it was too late.

[SuperJunky]

Oxy, I was reading this recently and trying to figure out (as a synthetic OC myself) why this would be expected to have such powerful MOR effects. You are referring to the N,N-tetramethylene (pyrrolidine) tryptamine derivative, right? I believe the pentamethylene is a known compound, or at least the non-aromatically substituted version, which is supposed to be orally active as a psychedelic. Am I misunderstanding the placement of the pyrrolidine ring system? Just for my curiosity could you elaborate on the SAR or whatever that leads you to suspect this powerful opiate potential? "Anilinoid"/indole version of a thiambutene moiety? Just kinda confused as I would love to know of an existing or potentially existing compound that would be producible in the way this would:)!!!


I was confused about what was going on here as well.


What i am trying to synthesize, is a compound that has a "methoxy" on the '5 position' of the carbon ring, but instead of a mundane substitution like -propyl, -isopropyl, -methyl, etc.etc, I am taking on the challenge of the tetramethylene ring. Challenge I say, cause this shit can be downright toxic, depending on what it is bonded with, but more importantly, WHERE on the ring it sits. Boths syntheses *will* in fact work, in other words---> it's just that one will be complete poison, and the other one will be a treasure with suspected strong agonist activity at the mu receptor. If all goes as planned, this new compund that I am working on will have a strength on the order of alpha fentanyls, and synthetics of that nature. I will keep everyone posted, as i make progress, then after the tryptamine is finished, I plan to start work on a phenethylamine


I pointed this out to robo because I find this really interesting, he knows a hell of a lot more about chemistry than I probably ever will, and since you havn't given us any sort of update here, good or bad, I was hoping he could give me some sort of explanation. We probably discussed this for well over an hour, comparing the structure of different opiates/opiods to what this chemical would look like. It doesn't seem to fallow the basic chemical shape that is present in all substances that intereact w/ the mu opiod receptors. A mu agonist tryptamine just amazes me and would support my (based soley on experience and 'gut' feeling and response to variouse drugs) theory that the opiod system is some how related to the psychadelic experience. This is a link to an entry in erowids online version of Tihkal, http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal24.shtml I found this part to be especially interesting



QUALITATIVE COMMENTS : (with 20 mg, orally) "This substance proved to be quite unlike psilocin and bordered on the bizarre. There was a latency period of about three hours after ingestion before the onset was noted. Visual disturbances were minimal; no alteration in colors or objects occurred. The nature of this compound was characterized by the heightening of the intellectual process, but not to the extent seen with psilocin. The entire experience was more 'stimulant-like' rather than hallucinogenic. A very unpleasant ride. Have no desire to go deeper or, indeed, to look at the other cyclic analogs."
EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY : There are three pyrrolidine amines in this tryptamine compilation, and all three are simply weird and illogical. Both the simple "pyrrolidyl tryptamine" (pyr-T) and the 5-methoxy counterpart (5-MeO-pyr-T) caused physical distress, and this one (4-HO-pyr-T) seems to be a more of a stimulant rather than a psychedelic. In all three cases (and with the 5,6-methylenedioxy example as well) the other two ring systems that often accompany the pyrrolide example as a "set" were simply not explored. This is due, largely, to the unexpected and generally negative responses to the pyrrolidine archetype. The piperidine homologue (4-HO-pip-T) is a white crystalline solid with a mp of 180-181 °C. The morpholine analogue is also a white crystalline solid with a mp of 177-178 °C.



And this one http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal43.shtml



DOSAGE : 0.5 - 2 mg, orally
DURATION : several hours
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS : (with 0.5 mg, orally) "This stuff is an absolute poison. Within minutes I noticed what can only be called ear-ringing without any ear-ringing. Intense tinnitus with no sound, most uncomfortable. There were two waves of nausea and vomiting of yellow bilious stuff, with thick mucus for saliva. I can't think straight -- muddled. I can't get answers to questions because I simply cannot form the questions. Eyes closed to music gave no images, but the music sounded OK. Recovery was quite rapid, and I was together again in a few hours. Never again."


(about 1 mg, smoking) "I managed to vaporize about a milligram of the material, and there was nothing profound. There was a slight feeling of calmness. As I felt sure that this material would be a quieting agent, I managed to vaporize and inhale what might have been up to another milligram. There were no psychedelic effects manifested, and I fell asleep easily 10 minutes later."
(with 3 mgs, smoking) "Initially the compound exhibited a 5-MeO-DMT-like effect. There was a total loss of self-identity in a nearly instantaneous rush. I felt as if the top of my head was blown off at the inset of the drug experience. My observers told me that I had been unconscious for four hours. I remember reentering with the feeling 'God is Love.' After completely coming to, I felt very nauseous, and threw up in the bathroom several times. I felt drained and sick for the rest of the evening as well as mentally slow. By the next morning I was more alert and responsive, I have absolutely no memory of anything that transpired while I was on the compound."
(with 3 mgs, smoking) "I inhaled the vaporized sample at 10 past noon. There was quite a rush. There were none of the shifting shapes, colors and forms of DMT. Nor was it acute with clarity or energy as with my many experiences with 5-MeO-DMT. The effect was intense but not terrifying, with a full body buzz and with humming resonance as I fell backwards into something where all memory was lost. I was told that at 18 past noon, I was unconscious. Something over an hour later, I started flailing, rolling about, quivering and shaking, and had very constricted pupils. In another hour I was able to talk lucidly, but quietly. In yet another hour, I was nauseous and tried for the bathroom, but didn't make it. The people who were watching me were alarmed. My actions were scary. And my skin looked funny for several days afterwards. There are long-lasting properties of this. My first exposure was with perhaps a milligrams (smoked, also) and the effects were substantial, with rough edges and minor dysphoria."
(with 4 mgs, smoking) "This was the free base. I remember the pipe, and the inhalation and, with the pouring of a small glass of scotch, I settled down in front of the TV to watch a re-run of Star Trek. That was it. I came to some time later in the front room of a professional ally of mine, who had by chance discovered me walking down the street near his house. I do not recall, nor have I been able to regain any memories of the time I was 'out there.' I apparently experienced no physical discomfort from the drug. In fact I distinctly remember feeling very comfortable when I awoke. Clearly this compound is some weird-ass shit."




In the above section I made the parts that seem to be opiate like effects, agonist or antagonist, bold and underlined. Maybe this drug is a mixed agonist/antagonist? If this drug is as powerful as fentanyl and these people where completly opiate nieve and it was a pure agonist I find it unlikly that any of these people would still be alive. If it where an agonist/antagonist it could then kinda antagonise it's own own agonist properties, just like w/ bupe and a compltly opiate nieve person, low doses are more agonist like where as larger doses can be more like an antagonist. The part below that I made blue also seems like it may support this theory.



Something else that may be a possibility is that those that are opiate niave often find high doses (of opiates) to be extremly uncomfortable, and even some that do take a proper dose just don't like the effects. I can see the psychonaught type not enjoying opiates, though myself personally thinks they mesh quite well, pharmacologicaly as well as philosophicaly. This could account for the feeling of mental slowness and the feeling of the top of your head exploding.


It also seems to have some dissasociative type effects, as dose the drug mentioned in entry #24 quoted above.



EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY : Again, as with other compounds in these writings, there is an irresistible urge to present generalizations. But with this particular material, there are obvious unresolved problems with both dosage or duration, as such I am limited to the few comments provided above. Dosage? A very few milligrams parenterally, but with smoking such small amounts it is hard to accurately estimate the actual dosages received. Duration? One subject could be fine the next morning, and another could be still aware of wrongness a week later. I am uncomfortable with any compound that seems to be widely variable in its impact on different people.
The qualitative aspects of these (and other) reports imply some individual variability. It is always easy to look at tryptamines such as this one, or the others in these recipes, and say, "We know that they are psychedelics. And maybe good ones or maybe bad ones. So we should look at them with that preconceived notion in mind." But looking objectively at this particular compound, 5-MeO-pyr-T, we are far away from any vocabulary of psychedelics. How is it different from, say, what one might expect from a Fentanyl analogue? Here is a collection of trials that describe parenteral administration, and the quick development of an anesthesia. This compound may not be the new Fentanyl because of the nausea during what would be the recovery period. But what are the chances that, perhaps not with this compound, but with any of the obvious analogues that are screaming to be assayed, there just might be a useful clinical tool?
There is another message of warning. Here one must accept the eloquent argument that, for the structuring of an experiment with an unknown and thus undefined new drug, there must be observers present who are both sober and sympathetic. The heroic and macho, "I'll do it my way," can lead to both psychological problems and physical risks. As with scuba diving, always work with a partner.
With both pyr-T and 4-HO-pyr-T, there are two additional ring analogies that are natural companions to 5-MeO-pyr-T. These are the piperidine and the morpholine counterparts, 5-MeO-mor-T and 5-MeO-pip-T. Both compounds are in the literature, and an entry reference to them can be gotten from the "known tryptamines" appendix. Along with the pyrrolidine material I had made a reasonable supply of the amides for these other two, both by way of the 5-methoxyindole and oxalyl chloride procedure given above. With piperidine, there is 5-methoxyindol-3-yl-N,N-pentamethyleneglyoxylamide, mp 167-169 °C and IR, (in cm-1), 730, 780, 811, 928, 1033, 1161, a broad carbonyl at 1600 and a broad indolic NH stretch at 3190. With morpholine, the corresponding glyoxylamide melted at 193-194 °C, with an IR spectrum (in cm-1), of 747, 791, 856, 925, 976, 1043 and 1122, the carbonyl at 1620 and the broad NH at 3150.
With the rather unexpected, and unencouraging descriptions of the pyrrolidine tryptamines in general, and this one in particular, I was not too blinding a hurry to explore the two heterocyclic analogues. The amides are still on the shelf in the lab. If some good reason comes forth to assay the final amines, they can be made with a dash of lithium aluminum hydride, but until then I have other things to do.



The part underlined in the section above makes refernce to anesthsia (dissasociation?) and directly compares it to fentanyl.



The part in italics mentions a piperidine and morpholine counterpart, are either of these what it is you are talking about?



Opiates have an effect on the adregenic system, is this a direct effect or a down the chain type of thing? I'm thinking down the chain (something relating to norepinphrin maybe?). Maybe the morpholine (from what I understand it is a solvent, I know Wiki isn' the best but it gives you an idea, it isn't related to morphine in any way other than 'morph' and 'ine') but if it is a direct effect (don't amphetamines work on the adregenic system directly?) maybe something could be theorized on the effects of the morpholine counterpart could be derived from this and this (this may be unrelated, is this in genereal w/ morpholine substances or just in these few specific caases?) http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jmcmar/1979/22/i06/f-pdf/f_jm00192a023.pdf?sessid=6006l3



All right, this is ridiculously long, thanks to whom ever managed to read through it and points to who ever can help me better understand this chemical(s) and specificaly how it effects the opiate receptors (it isn't the right 'shape,')? What part of it effects the receptor? or anything else about opiate receptor activity of tryptamines or other psychadelics (sally d, dissasociative effects and delta {or is it kappa?} stimulation?)



I havn't slept in a few days, it's 1:16 AM and I'm going to go attempt to sleep, which thanks to the amphetamines I took to get through work is going to be impossible. If I have anything wrong here please correct me, I'm no expert, I just like to figure these things out and find it extremly interesting. I can't spell check this so I also apologize for any and all spelling errors.

Peace
SJ