Black Cohosh - My Experience

[Narkotikon]

Last weekend when I was at my sister's I read Jacky's thread about Black Cohosh, then did a little bit of research on the net about it's partial affinity for the mu opioid receptor. Two days later, on this past Tuesday, I went to Kroger's and bought two bottles (it was buy one get one free on this brand of herbal supplements this day). Each bottle had 100 caps, and each gel cap had 525mg of ground up root powder in it. The directions said to take one a day, preferably with meals. I took one right before I went with my mom to see Freedom Writers, and didn't feel a thing, so stupid me takes 6 more. I still didn't feel anything when we got home from the movie, so I took 10 more. That was about 5:00 in the evening. At around 7:00 I got the WORST headache in my life. I don't normally get really bad headaches. Maybe two semi-painful headaches once a month, around my left temple. This was left and right temple, and sort of all over. It was just throbbing. So, I laid down in a dark room with no noise and put a wet cloth on my forehead, took 5 200mg ibuprofens, which always helps, then took 3 tylenols an hour later. At around 10:00, I begged my mom to let me go to the University of Cincy hospital, as that's the only place that takes people without insurance. My mom wanted to take me to Anderson Mercy because it's a lot closer, but I knew they wouldn't accept me. I mean, I know everyone's probably thinking, what a dumbass, and I totally agree. I should NOT have taken 17 if those gel caps, but you know how it is when you're craving and you read something about mu opioid receptors that you can easily get, you automatically think relief. WRONG! So, we got to the hospital at about 11:15, waited two hours to get in, then, when I finally did, the first words out of the doctor's mouth was "have you been using opioids recently." I said no, because I've not for three weeks come tomorrow (aside from the darvocet I had taken a week ago, which didn't do anything anyway, so I didn't count that). Anyway, I told him I had a really really bad headache, which was true. The reason he asked me about the opiates was because I was really sick in the beginning of January when I first moved in with my mom, and told them that, and they gave me clonidine and phenergan. So, he keeps going on about the opiates, and I finally just start to get pissed. I mean, I have a really really low tolerance to pain, and I become a real bitch when I am in pain, which isn't often, and people are giving me shit. So, I just said, listen, I've not been on anything in three weeks, I'm not physically sick anymore, and I don't expect you to give me anything major, I just want my head to quit hurting. So, he tells me he wants to give me a CAT scan, and go from there. I did the CAT scan, and it was negative. When I got back from that, the nurse gave me Reglin / Riglin, which is this shitty anti-nausea medicine that always gives me a metalic taste in my mouth. But, the kicker is that the doctor and the nurse said it was pain, like I was stupid. So, I laid there in the hallway underneath the flourescent lights, which were murder on my eyes, for another half and hour, then the doctor came back and asked how I was. I said it didn't help, which why would it? Then he said he wanted to give me a lumbar spinal tap to rule out meningitis. I've never had a spinal tap, but I know their extremely painful, and of course they wouldn't have given me anything. So, at that point, I just told him that this was a mistake, a waste of my time, and that I should have not even come. Then he said that the Reglin / Riglin should have helped, and I said "why, it's an anti-nausea med, not a pain med." He said, "oh." I mean, I did not expect to get morphine, or dilaudid, or even a percocet, and certainly not a script for anthing, but my god, would it have killed the fucker to give me a fucking Tylenol 3 or even a fucking Ultram. I mean, it just pissed me off. It was just really really obvious that they were trying to cause me as much discomfort and pain as possible to ensure that I'd never come back, which they succeeded. What really pisses me off is that if you have no insurance, that's the only place you can go, then they won't even do anything for you because you're a drug addict. It's like their telling you that you don't deserve treatment for anything. It really made me want to have lied in January and just said I had the flu to get Tussionex. I mean, I was honest with them then, and look where it got me. But, yeah, I'm not trying to prevent anyone from using Black Cohosh, but DON'T overdo it. You'll end up with the headache from hell, and probably get no treatment.

[jacky]

ouch.

maybe the dr was feeling sketchy cause they see so many people feigning headaches.?

at any rate sounds like bup like antagonist effect, but that is just one random guess.

in a few years there might be more study done on isolating the active compound, if it is a single source effect, and then maybe I can get a freind to perform isolation.

I think with this plant I might keep it to the 1/2 gram to 2 gram range initially.
while the plant primarily is used by women in the present, some ethnobotanical info states I think that the root was taken as a tonic by men and women of indigenous north american tribes.

when taking new herbs I like to keep the opiate dose that I take that day a good 3-4 hours before trying the new herb.
there are situations when approaching researching possibly opioid containing herbs that people handle differently I geuss.

I either test them when withdrawing from opiates/opioids, but not very often....I am a pussy that way.

I test them a few hours after imbibing exogenous opiates/opioids, and of course keeping in mind that we are ALWAYS in the presense of some ENDOGENOUS opiate peptides, and it looks like small amounts of endogenous morphine and codeine and various metabolites.

and then if I get lucky, some freak of nature comes along that doesnt really take opiates regularly , and decides they might want to try something new. this subject is primarily running on the ENDOGENOUS KICK.

all situational examples are pretty important to the process I would think, at least to their respective observation "post",.....experiencing a new "buzz", or as perhaps narkotikon found, new hellscapes of frontal lobe destruction.

I have the endogenous/exogenous feild of discovery down, dominated by withdrawl if I slip away unanounced....and maybe someday I can get on bup, ween off of that...and then slowly ween off of kratom to discover that I dont really need to rely on opiates for pain, energy, and spirit.
Then I might be in a position to try the freak observation approach that many would consider the most "scientific", as the "sober" witness to a new plants consumption consequences.

I think this matter of opiate/opioid exploration is tainted sometimes by a pre-trans fallacy that there is an opiate free state of being for humans beings. there isnt.
its by degrees we consider antagonist/agonist effects perhaps.

maybe in narkotikons position, not having additional exogenous opiates in their system, and the consumption of possibly large amounts of partial agonist/antagonist compounds caused the headache trauma, perhaps additional opiates would have helped, or perhaps the experience would have been coupled by some other painful or otherwise unhealthy reaction?
shit, who is to know.?

surely not a scientist testing naloxones effects on a rodent that is under the effect of some possible opioid/opiate agonist. they are explorers for sure, and I would hope that they taste a little of that material themselves sometime.

opio-psychonaughts play in some areas of risk, and the possibility of VERY strong opioid compounds in nature is already known and substantiated, just look into some of the flowers of a certian tropane containing plant. I hope everyone treads lightly here.

increase dosage lightly.....
pay attention to diet when taking new compounds/plant materials...
wait a few hours between the 1st few doses at least.
pyrolation is generally one of the ways to limit absorption while having a generally potent way of researching, or vaporization, though is highly dependent on the type of material being used.
insuffilation is another, but better for extracts or pure compounds. with this route, test it for pain level in small amounts.

I have made some mistakes like eating way too much voacanga seed material, or pushing 100 grams of very potent cactus powder up my ass. both had very serious physical impacts on me, and the mescaline trip was probably better cause I was so high that time seemed to go quick and slow at least, while the voacanga hell just dragged on with my mind bored and suffering, the physical pain of the mescaline trip though was hellacious, pure fire burning up my esophagus for hours.

luckily most of my more opioid related plant research has been much more subtle. too subtle actually, dammit!
there are plenty of mild analgesics out there, some significant topical relievers.....but plants that lend to the mind euphoria and intense somatic sensations are not common. kratom for some, and I am sure others that we are not aware of yet in the modern world. for now black cohosh is an open book.

I keep flipping the pages slowly.

hopefully we get some more info on black cohosh, if we are really lucky, the active will be discovered, and then hopefully it can be isolated, and then perhaps it will be a appreciated type of material, with potential for the hedonists, and the pain inflicted, and then just maybe the chinese will extract it in bulk and kilos of bliss will rain while the window is open for inquiry.

till then I wont be eating handfulls of black cohosh pills or extracts!
for what its worth narkotikon, thanks for the report on your apparent dyshphoric reaction to this herb, I say apparent with respect that you were not imagining the pain, but the role of the herb of as the main cause might be up for debate I guess.

I think its great that you got back so quick about your bad reaction, and I dont want to go around promoting unsafe consumption of herbs either, and its a good thing to have as much direct experience reports as we can.

eating novel herbs for a euphoric kick is a real crapshoot, and most often I think will turn out in the "houses" favor, and not the players.
stay small, and shoot for many "hands" of experience. even if it is a subtle effect, it will be more apparent after say the tenth time of consuming the herb perhaps than the 1st few times.
I look at it as an averages game, cause at any point my body might be giving me a false positive or negative either way. I think that is less likely to be misconstrued with more experience.

Its nice for the ladies here to have this material at least for the classic herbal therapy use.

[Papa Verine]

Fuck Narkitikon, I'm sorry about your experience. That doctor and his nurse should get hit in the head with a hammer and then given some antacid for pain relief.

WTF???

I feel bad now because I posted a positive experience with this herb. But mine was with a bottled ethanol-based extract and when trying to replicate the results with an encapsulated product as you've mentioned I got nothing. That means nothing, no headache either!!!

I don't know about the Black Cohosh but the doctor is a fucking jag-off... That I know!

[euphoria2002]

I would have given you some T3's for sure.... even if I thought you were scamming for them. Why? Well, I believe, as a physician I should help people. To me, that means it's better to err on the side of caution.... assume your pain is genuine and help you out.

If you're scamming? Well, T3's do have some abuse potential what with CWE and all, but not even giving out an Rx for 10 or 20? Sounds like that doctor was more worried about his own ass than yours. Part of the oath says "do no harm" and a few T3's wouldn't have done any harm.

Euphoria