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SuperJunky
08-22-2005, 08:33 PM
Check out this link. http://heroinhelper.com/curious/pharmacology/strength.shtml#morphineNote (http://heroinhelper.com/curious/pharmacology/strength.shtml#morphineNote)

It gives a chart of different opiates and their strength in comparison to morphine. Any body have any idea how tramadol or kratom (mitragynine (sp?)) compares, or the acuracy of this? Do any of these numbers seem off to any one? Maybe we could all put our opiated heads together and expand upon this adding other opiates and administration routes.

How many of you regularly use muliple opiates at once or within the same day?

Buckshot
08-22-2005, 09:45 PM
The list is nice to see I always hoped to read something like that, buts its confusing.

For Oxycodone it say you need 15-30mgs to equal 10mg of morphine orally....that cant be right.

SuperJunky
08-23-2005, 05:52 AM
It's 10 mg of morphine IM, even for the oral doses. I think it would be much more useful if they comapred it to 10mg morphine oral as well as IV.

Paregoric Kid
08-23-2005, 08:19 AM
for me it's rare that I don't mix opioids

tramadol is weaker than propoxyphene, if that is any help. tramadol's "affinity for mu receptors of the CNS remains low, being 6000 times lower than that of morphine."
7-hydroxymitragynine, the strongest opioid alkaloid in kratom, is allegedly 17 times stronger than morphine and 30 times stronger than mitragynine.

bluesail1
08-23-2005, 09:24 AM
Would somebody please tell me what the hell is Kratom?

jacky
08-23-2005, 10:16 AM
the active metabolite of tramadol is alot stronger than tramadol after tramadol is metabolized, at least a few hundred times more potent.
considering the range of differences in which people metabolize drugs due in part to enzyme conversion there is alot of difference in how this drug effects people.

jacky
08-23-2005, 11:29 AM
kratoms active compound is somewhat more potent in its binding affinity I believe than morphine, and last about as long. This isnt to say that kratom causes more euphoria than morphine.

in my experience kratom is a strong opiate agonist, that can cause some dysphoric effects in me if I go several grams over my usual dose. If I do too much kratom it can cause a dizziness and a straining in my eyes. I have also noticed some sensitivety in my eyes when in the sun.

babyfaceftw
09-05-2005, 01:39 AM
Hey guys wuts up im new on here dont mind me i gotta say ive done em all and i like the dilaudid the best cause there easy ta disolve and a great rush when ya bang i find the ms contin gives me some crazy pins an needles when i slam it an its all gooy

Zoops
09-09-2005, 05:32 PM
Yall talk about tramadol an awful lot, that shit is on my "do not under any circumstances take" list. I had seizures twice, taking like 7 50mg at a time.

kramorph
09-10-2005, 04:40 AM
From what i can remember from pharmacy days, call codiene 1,then morphine is 10X stronger ie 10,heroin 40,fentanyl 500,buprenorphine 1000,methadone 10,dihydrocodeine 2-3,oxycodone 20,oxymorphone 100,hydromorphone 150,levanorphol 50,pethidine(meperidine)2,butorphanol 50.But these are equianalgesic effects.They didnt teach us the difference in tolerance and quality of high.Also from personal exp.these figures dont really mean alot.Hope that helps.And also halve lives play a very important role, and as i found out methadone w/d is 100X worse than simple morphine but they are apparently equal?? also i have found methadone to be a useless analgesic, yet morphine quite good,as good as H, but less euphoric.So I reckon trial and error, and always er on the lower side.I have known a couple of people who died from shooting fentanyl(RIP).Hope this helps someone.It also varies on how ya take it, iv is obviosly alot more potent than oral,popping or im.My motto is, you can always have more,but once od'd its too late to have less :argue:

HeidiW
09-10-2005, 04:25 PM
Toradol and Ultram, I avoid that garbage at all costs. Besides heroin, I'd have to say Dilaudid is the absolute best IV drug. There is no better feeling in the world than a shot of D. MS Contin is pretty good too, I've only done the 130 mg. ones. It seemed to last pretty long.

rebo
09-12-2005, 07:21 PM
Have you ever tried to mix your oxy with a small bit of gear ,gives you the morph rush with the H nods ,very pleasant I must admit .(Kids ,don't try this at home) ,is that good enough for a disclaimer???

HeidiW
09-12-2005, 10:34 PM
I've never mixed Oxy's and gear. I've mixed liquid Morphine and gear and Dilaudid and gear. Those were the days . . .:jumping-s (Do I need a disclaimer?):rolleyes:

rebo
09-13-2005, 07:46 PM
Same thing really ,what a rush!

MorphineDreams
09-14-2005, 09:01 PM
Below are the equanalgesic doses of narcotic painkillers administered intramuscularily(IM).

Morphine 10 mg(IM) is equal to:

Heroin 5 mg
Codeine 120 mg
Hydromorphone 2 mg
Oxycodone 15 mg *
Hydrocodone 15 mg *
Oxymorphone 1 mg
Levorphanol 2 mg
Methadone 15 mg

Studies indicate that at equal analgesic doses like the above, morphine is the most profound and strongest in its effects. Euphoria, sedation, respiratory depression and constipation are most intense with morphine. Heroin and Oxymorphone are a close second in terms of intensity of effects.

*Oxycodone and Hydrocodone are not used parenterally, but this would be the dose equal to 10 mg of morphine theoretically.

ontario_opiophile
09-23-2005, 05:01 PM
Hello everyone i'm new here, but not new to opiates/opioids. Tramadol is a pile of horse shit. For most people it is horrible and makes them feel rather shitty. But, ocassionally it can make some people high as hell. Unfortunately it has no effect on me. Oxycodone is weak to me. So is morphine. When I was somewhat opiate naive I could take about 500mg of morphine and drink 12 beer and 6-8 2 ounce shots and I wouldnt pass out or have any adverse effects. I seem to be more sensitive to opioids. Methadone is one that gives me a great high. I get injectable methadone liquid without the orange juice crap in it. Or I can get the powder for injection or oral use. It's better than Heroin for me. I find that hydromorphone is totally weak also. But then again I have a horrible illness that makes me really sick and it's hard to find anything that will kill my pain, let alone give me a buzz. I suffer from chronic fevers, horrible joint, muscle and bone pain, a severe blood disorder that causes me to gush blood out of my nose at least twice a day, and I have adrenal insufficiency and have recently been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. I just turned 20 and have been like this for 3 years and methadone is the only one that helps. The brand is METADOL (powder or oral 10mg/ml liquid without crap in it). I take Endocet (oxycodone w/acetaminophen) at night to help me take the edge off my fevers and pain. But it has no effect on me and never really did. I would really like to try Fentanyl but it's not possible. I've had the pink patches 3 years ago when I first got sick but only went through 2 boxes of them and made a switch to morphine. I really think those actiq suckers would help me. The patches are useless. If anyone ever gets ahold of actiq you know who to call ;)

Oxycodone is kinda weak. It's a medium strength opiate in my opinion. It can be strong when IV'd but it's just an average painkiller. For some people it could be better than heroin or anything stronger.

And about the Oxymorphone. Oxymorphone is NOT a medium strength opiate. Hydromorphone is weaker than Oxymorphone in my opinion and i'm sure most people would agree if they had used it IV like they have used Hydromorphone. It's hardly a medium strength opiate. It's equal to Diacetyl morphine. (in my opinion)

And another thing. Putting Methadone in the same class as Oxycodone and Hydrocodone is not right. Methadone is above Levorphanol and is just as strong as Morphine. I think Oxycodone is just about as strong as morphine. It's probably 3/4 the strength of Morphine, maybe a little bit less. Levorphanol is not up there with hydromorphone. I'll make my list of weakest to strongest opiate/opioids.

Tramadol, Propoxyphene Napsylate, Propoxyphene Hydrochloride, Codeine Phosphate, Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Levorphanol Morphine and Methadone are equal in strength, Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, Dipipanone, Heroin, Fentanyl and it's analogs, Etorphine.

I didn't include Pentazocine or Butorphanol or Buprenorphine because they are strange drugs with crazy effects and not worthy of being on my list. Bupe is semi-worthy and could be considered much stronger than morphine in analgesic strength but it doesn't really make you high. I started with Tramadol as the one that makes you least high, and ended with Etorphine with the one that would make you the most high or kill you. Whatever comes first. But then again this is just my own list and many people will disagree so don't pay any attention to it. I just think it's crazy to call Methadone a weaker drug than Morphine or Levorphanol. Most people who take methadone orally can't even tell the difference between oral Heroin and oral Methadone. And IV methadone is just as nice as heroin and you know it's pure and not full of some syphillitic pakistani mans shit. Oh well thats another drug induced rant.

kramorph
09-26-2005, 06:39 AM
The best high I ever got was when I had access to pure morphine powder, ie morphine sulphate B.P. The pharmacy I worked in had a 10g jar of it before I started, was empty within weeks(coz I only worked weekly).Still to this day I have not got the same high from any H I have scored.If only I had that morphine now, I would turn it into H, oh well.I also found the oral liquid, I think 10mg/ml, was also great iv, but you(I) needed at least a 10ml barrel.

MorphineDreams
09-26-2005, 04:55 PM
ontario_opiophile:

Buddy, you've got it wrong. You can find studies done on these issues in any comprehensive college/university pharmacology book. Methadone does not have the same "high" associated with the more potent narcotics like morphine, heroin, hydromorphone, or oxymorphone. The effects of methadone take a while before they set in and they last long, therefore no "initial" rush or "high" for that matter. Studies indicate that morphine sulfate is the most intense narcotic when compared in equanalgesic doses. Followed by heroin and oxymorphone. Methadone is about as potent as oxycodone and hydrocodone. It's effects are less intense than that of oxycodone, but greater than that of hydrocodone. Methadone's dependance liability is equal to that of hydrocodone and less than that of oxycodone.

Also, I really don't believe you were able to take "500 mg of morphine with beer and shots" while you were "opiate naive" and survived to see another day. Also, if you think hydromorphone is "weak" and methadone is "strong" that means you have confused all your drugs - if hydromorphone was weak to you, than by all means methadone would be worthless, considering that hydromorphone is about 10 times as potent - it defies logic and science. I don't by it or believe it. I just think you have an infatuation with methadone, which is according to most pharmacologists and street users a "secondary" opiate of abuse. Nobody would choose methadone, if morphine, heroin, oxycodone, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, meperidine, or levorphanol are around. I personally wouldn't even choose it over hydrocodone because it's effects are slow coming and last a long time(it feels like a heroin hangover).

Matter of fact, according to leading pharmacologists these below are the official medically classified "potent" narcotics, I'm posting only the obvious ones, there are many more. Unfortunately, methadone is not one of them. (Source: Purdue):

Morphine, Heroin, Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, Levorphanol, Meperidine, Fentanyl, Sufentinal. Methadone was never classified medically as a "potent" narcotic, therefore completely outclassed and outmatched by morphine in both effect intensity/euphoria, dependence liability, and potency. Methadone can't hold a candle to morphine.

jacky
09-26-2005, 09:51 PM
I think you actually are making a mistake in your statements morphinedreams, by quoting scientific data and not taking into account the wide variable effects that people get from different opiates, morphine sulfate may effect some people with intensity, and others like me just dont get the rush, and I have tried a few sulfate "shakers" compared to dalaudid, and to me dalaudid is the hands down winner for rush effect. to me methadone is stronger per milligram and more "toxic" feeling than morphine . I get quite a high off of methadone after a few days of saturation.... what is it that we call a "high"? to some people they only get high when drunk and on pills, some get high just because their chronic pain is lowered,some people need a smoke after shooting up, one person think kratom rules and another with chronic pain cant even feel it. one mans dysphoria is another mans euphoria.......an infatuation with opiates is what this site is all about...to some.

Jonathan Ott in his book pharmacophilia relates studies that show that only 10% of the population actually feels euphoria from opiates. maybe the people that feel euphoria have an endogenous opioid deficiency?
I like any opiate. period. I cant say something sucks just because I am not in and out of consiousness or because it doesnt carry a rush.

My most complex opioid regimine in a 24 hour period was a 20 milligram shot of morphine in the morning, followed 2 hrs later by a 30 milligram oxy, then off to work to get more money. when the $ was in hand I set up a couple balloons of heroin, and shot my regular amount. then we had dalaudids. I think they were the 4 milligrams. we did those every hour through the afternoon, they seemed to effect me for only 40 minutes or so. I then ate a couple of valium and about 25 milligrams of hydrocodone and went to see get shorty with some freinds. I took some preloads with me. It was a great day, but I hardly remember that night, so I geuss , what was the point?

I look back on that day and it doesnt even compare to the time I was locked up and traded my cup o noodles for 7 darvocet. I saved them till saturday and ate them right before dinner. the satisfaction of getting "high" in jail was extremely rewarding, more so than the actual drug effect.

In one study a person WITHOUT any opiate tolerance survived a 1000 fucking milligram push of HEROIN. this study was focused on different variables that effect overdose, they think that cut, strychnine etc kills far more people than the dope itself. an interesting pattern also developed from the medical data in their opinion, the risk of overdose is tied not only with variables concerning the drug, but also they found a correlation of increased overdose ratios as the amount of people using together grew, that 2 people using together stood a better chance of avoiding overdose than 10. pretty strange.

I think the most interesting thing about this thread is the difference between peoples tastes in "dope", it just amazes me how different and how similiar we are..........

I get a strong euphoria from buprenorphine for the first few weeks. I got an incredibly clean IV rush from 200 micrograms of pure buprenorphine with no naloxone. some people cant stand the stuff.

I am a lucky one I geuss, that codeine gives me excellent euphoria in doses as low as 30 milligrams, but then it makes me itch more than most opiates, and I love to satisfy that itch. the only thing that makes me itch more is when I combine the opioids in picralima nitida seeds with other opiates.

I find china white to be less favourable than good old tar heroin..perhaps I was just shooting fentynal.

I even get an enjoyable opioid effect from salvinorin a, about twenty minutes after smoking, it seems really good for leg pain. I once gave a girl her first hit of salvia divinorum, she felt it, but she got nothing psychedelic, she said that it felt just like vicoden for a few hours, and she was not opate niave. salvinorin a has got to be the most variable opioid out there...............

I thimk the most important thing about enjoying opiates for me is to change, the dose, the drug, the times etc. I take enzyme inhibitors to decrease elimination, and I take sopiforic herbs to get a downer effect. I try and change my regimine every few months. buprenorphine is a great tool for dropping tolerance..............

argueing about potency is pointless in the large picture, people vary too much, it is a good thing to have a generalised idea of which opiates and opioids may be more potent, but that is not a template for certianty. certian cultures dont even recognize being high as being high. I quit doing heroin after a few years of chipping because I started getting dysphoric every time I took it, even in small amounts, I tried, but it just quit working for me, I have to use heroin steady to get to the saturation point that I start getting euphoria, I call it "getting primed". I quit using the stuff because to get any good effects, I would have to use for three days, and three days for me is hooked. I have only used three days and then quit a few times. I am not a proffesional by any means, nor do I have a degree, I am niave to some subjects concerning opiates of course, but one thing I know is that people are different, and dope and euphoria is relative to happiness, with some people they have to be fucking someone over to really be happy and high. When I was sick and yello with hep b, and at my personal bottom, getting kicked out of my apartment because a roommate made off with three months rent, and also out of my sous chef position because of my sickness, no amount of heroin could make me "high" I was simply sick and sicker...sick after a shot, and then sicker an hour later. for some reason that time 7 vicoden with some valium hit me harder than all the heroin I was doing.

kramorph
09-27-2005, 08:08 AM
I have found that if ya wack up a large amount initially there is a good chance of oding, but if ya start slow ya can end up having enough to kill a horse, so who the fuck really knows?

MorphineDreams
09-27-2005, 09:58 PM
Jacky:

I really like how you recognized that every individual person will react differently to certain opiates. This is true, but it has a lot to do with an "emotional infatuation" with a certain drug which they link to certain times, places, people and other memories. I was addressing "ontario_opiophile" infatuation with methadone and correcting him - methadone has never been medically classified in morphines league. In fact it is completely outclassed by morphine as a narcotic analgesic. Morphine is the prototype opiate, it is the classical example of all narcotics and narcotism and as such it cannot be contested. My favorite opiate is oxycodone(mainly because it is readily available and works great), but I don't go saying that it is "the" best narcotic. I know many people(media) compare oxycodone with morphine or heroin, but this is often a scare tactic, nothing more. I know that oxycodone in reality(medically and scientifically) cannot compare to neither morphine or heroin in many aspects that make them what they are. Methadone, medically is not even as significant as a narcotic as oxycodone. The truth is that methadone came to life(during WWII) as a "substitute drug"(for morphine because it was scarce) and it has remained a "substitute drug"(for heroin now) for all it's existence.

Paregoric Kid
10-04-2005, 06:36 PM
methadone injected is equipotent to morphine, orally methadone is much much stronger than morphine. I think methadone has a big advantage of morphine in that the dose lasts significantly longer than morphine.

oldschool?
10-12-2005, 12:18 PM
firstly i got a real kick out of reading all these posts - euphoria is deffinately a subjective experience..
thought i'd remind you all about "set,setting,and dosage" all being factors in a persons experience

i once read about an h addict overdosing just because he fixed in a different location.
it makes little sense but apparently this individual usually took the same dose in the same place, then overdoses taking the same dose in a new location!! sorry i can't give a source i read this many years ago and around the same time an addiction councelor told me of a documented study in which a person almost died from nicotine withdrawl - somehow this persons body got so used to the nicotine that it became tied up with essential bodily functions - and after they almost died the professionals involved realized what happend - the moral of the story - everyone is different and is effected differently by different things!

i have one addict friend who thinks oxys are garbage but when i first did them i'd tell people (in my opinion based on my experience) that iv oxy came on like h but only had the potency of m. go figure
also according to my experience with no opiate tolerance (way back when???) iv methadone produced (virtually) the same effect as h -- i watched the beatles yellow sub after my first dose and man was it borrrrrring when on the nod!!

Mokelly
12-06-2005, 10:23 PM
tramadol is weaker than propoxyphene



I'm gonna have to dissagree PK, in my opinion tramadol is MUCH stronger than darvocet, with me anyway.

not that it's all that good or anything, I just think darvocets are the worst

Paregoric Kid
12-07-2005, 01:40 PM
I wasn't just going by experience, it is a fact that tramadol IS a weaker opioid than propoxyphene, mg for mg.

devilsdrug
12-07-2005, 03:57 PM
i once did a detox with darvon n 100s as the main drug ( there was also tranxene and clorohydrate) at the time i had a monster habit the max they would give you was 10 a day but counselor saw i was barely touched by that so he had me meet him at a park where behind the seat of his truck he had gallon jugs of all the above which he just gave me plenty extras and i bought a oz of weed from him if i remember right i took 20 aday to start and they worked to get me down from that very nasty habit i think i actually prefer the pill detox vs a done detox as ive done both in neighborhood of 7x each. but these days its seems its easier to get the tramadol than darvon

SomniGod
12-08-2005, 08:46 AM
Man.... that's gotta be hard on the liver!!!

Mine hurts thinkin bout it!


~S~

devilsdrug
12-08-2005, 05:15 PM
back then i and nobody else was worried about the liver that was about 77 had to clean up a bit for jail secret grand jury indictments of sales of H , the dirty rat even did the dope in front of me and then gave the cops some bunk brown ( mine was straight from thailand white) anyway liver is still holding up.

hovadagod
12-28-2005, 08:14 PM
100mg propox is way weaker than 100mg tramadol any time I've taken it either. Darvocet is the worst and anyway, as far as science is concerned, these two drugs shouldn't even be compared because tramadol is not in the same family as opiates:)

Oral morph can't touch oral oxy or hydro for that matter. Science looks at analgesia or pain reduction...very different standard than you guys are using. Oral morph is the worst and wouldn't be used if I were the boss.

Paregoric Kid
12-30-2005, 12:05 PM
100mg propox is way weaker than 100mg tramadol any time I've taken it either. Darvocet is the worst and anyway, as far as science is concerned, these two drugs shouldn't even be compared because tramadol is not in the same family as opiates:)

Oral morph can't touch oral oxy or hydro for that matter. Science looks at analgesia or pain reduction...very different standard than you guys are using. Oral morph is the worst and wouldn't be used if I were the boss.

tramadol has opioid properties, especially the M1 metabolite. the opioid properties of tramadol ARE lower than propoxyphene. if you have any kind of tolerance you aren't going to feel anything from either of them. propoxyphene is useful in that you can use it to potentiate other opiates. there is some information that suggest tramadol blocks or lessens the effects of opioids. tramadol IS lowest on the totem poll of opioid effects, whether for analgesia or for getting high. when I had no tolerance I could take 400 or 500mg of propoxyphene and feel an effect or feel a similar effect when I took a GRAM of tramadol, then I read about the possibility of seizures and don't bother taking over like 200-400mg on the rare occasion I do take tramadol.

why would anyone trying to get high waste morphine by taking it orally?

exitwound
12-30-2005, 12:52 PM
i am very curious about that claim that Tramadol blocks other opiates. Some people seem to think the opposite, that it potentiates them....any evidence or experiences to share on this topic? Normally I use tramadol for withdrawls/tapers, as with Kratom, but if combining it with my regular meds would work, I'd do that. The stuff is so easy to get....

doctor diesel
01-01-2006, 06:42 AM
i am very curious about that claim that Tramadol blocks other opiates. Some people seem to think the opposite, that it potentiates them....any evidence or experiences to share on this topic? Normally I use tramadol for withdrawls/tapers, as with Kratom, but if combining it with my regular meds would work, I'd do that. The stuff is so easy to get....

All I know is that when I was pretty opiate naive - about three years ago - I did a blend of tramadol and Darvon that sent me to Heaven for about five hours. I tried it on the missus and it had the same wonderful effect.
It was 200mg tramadol with 200mg darvon, and it came on after about half an hour. I have never tried H - namely because I wouldn't know how to get hold of the stuff - but I liken that experience to what I think H does. It was sublime.
This simple formula - prefaced with some ranitidine - worked three times for me (and her) but never, ever worked again. There was some fantastic synergy between those two 'weak' chemicals and i wish I could have that fantastic feeling just one more time....

Doc D

bupegal
01-01-2006, 10:29 AM
I'm new to this site...have been lurking in the shadows for a few weeks but never have posted. Yesterday I came across an interesting bit of info. regarding proglumide(sp?):confused: . Have any of you heard of this drug? Supposedly when taken in combination with any opiod it potentiates the effect and simultaneously decreases tolerance. Originally proglumide was indicated for ulcer treatment but has proven ineffective so has fallen out of use. However, clinical studies have demonstrated proglumide as an effective adjunct in pain management for cancer patients. In these studies, cancer sufferers had increased analgesia effects from their standard dose when used in combination with proglumide and it also seemed to lower tolerance.

I'm not sure if this post belongs in this topic, but I thought it was somewhat related. I'm curious if any of you have heard of or tried this drug? I'm currently on subutex, thinking I'll do a long, slow taper until I'm detoxed. My goal is to get free from addiction for awhile. But knowing myself, the day will come when I pick up again and this proglumide has me intrigued:rolleyes: . If it does what the studies say, proglumide may be a helpful addition to any opiate habit. How do you get it?

Thanks,
bupegal

poppy
01-01-2006, 11:02 AM
"Supposedly when taken in combination with any opiod it potentiates the effect and simultaneously decreases tolerance."
Like you I only wish I knew where to get it, it sounds fascinating and dare I say it like a dream come true!!! Hopefully one of the other opiophiles will know more. Laters Poppyx

Mokelly
01-01-2006, 12:48 PM
pm me about that poppy

thbronze
01-13-2006, 10:19 AM
Everyones right-everyones different and has different results from diff drugs.Take Diesels post- tramadol and darvon-who woulda thought?For whatever reason methadone works great for me but i prefer the real thing.All time favorite thou not an opiate-do some lines,freebase,down a beer,and exhale.Yep I do miss the 80's

exitwound
01-21-2006, 02:14 PM
Proglumide has been hard to find, for me....but quinine and similar amino acids that are useful to regular opiate users aren't so difficult. I've noticed several of them in the Doctor's Trust supplement catalog....

ontario_opiophile
02-02-2006, 03:09 AM
Jacky:

I really like how you recognized that every individual person will react differently to certain opiates. This is true, but it has a lot to do with an "emotional infatuation" with a certain drug which they link to certain times, places, people and other memories. I was addressing "ontario_opiophile" infatuation with methadone and correcting him - methadone has never been medically classified in morphines league. In fact it is completely outclassed by morphine as a narcotic analgesic. Morphine is the prototype opiate, it is the classical example of all narcotics and narcotism and as such it cannot be contested. My favorite opiate is oxycodone(mainly because it is readily available and works great), but I don't go saying that it is "the" best narcotic. I know many people(media) compare oxycodone with morphine or heroin, but this is often a scare tactic, nothing more. I know that oxycodone in reality(medically and scientifically) cannot compare to neither morphine or heroin in many aspects that make them what they are. Methadone, medically is not even as significant as a narcotic as oxycodone. The truth is that methadone came to life(during WWII) as a "substitute drug"(for morphine because it was scarce) and it has remained a "substitute drug"(for heroin now) for all it's existence.


Jacky:

I really like how you recognized that every individual person will react differently to certain opiates. This is true, but it has a lot to do with an "emotional infatuation" with a certain drug which they link to certain times, places, people and other memories. I was addressing "ontario_opiophile" infatuation with methadone and correcting him - methadone has never been medically classified in morphines league. In fact it is completely outclassed by morphine as a narcotic analgesic. Morphine is the prototype opiate, it is the classical example of all narcotics and narcotism and as such it cannot be contested. My favorite opiate is oxycodone(mainly because it is readily available and works great), but I don't go saying that it is "the" best narcotic. I know many people(media) compare oxycodone with morphine or heroin, but this is often a scare tactic, nothing more. I know that oxycodone in reality(medically and scientifically) cannot compare to neither morphine or heroin in many aspects that make them what they are. Methadone, medically is not even as significant as a narcotic as oxycodone. The truth is that methadone came to life(during WWII) as a "substitute drug"(for morphine because it was scarce) and it has remained a "substitute drug"(for heroin now) for all it's existence.

What you are saying is all bullshit. You sound like you are some geeky fucker who has never even tried an opiate. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about Methadone wasn't even created because of a shortage of morphine or as a substitute for morphine. Nazi scientists were trying to develop an anti-spasmodic or something of the sort. They were giving their test subjects huge doses and killing them so they figured it wasn't anything interesting. It wasn't until they lowered the doses, that they realized they had come up with something useful. Methadone is more potent than morphine. You can't tell me that 50mg of morphine is stronger than 50mg of methadone. If you tell me that, you are insane. 50mg of methadone is like getting 50mg of morphine 2-4 times a day. lol. You are mentally defficient my friend. The long effects of the drug make it more powerful in my opinion. Sure it doesn't give the same rush to someone who uses intravenously but for oral users like myself it does the trick and the euphoria is quite good and lasts alot longer than anything else out there. I don't have a fascination with methadone only, it's just the only thing I have access too other than oxycodone, so i've grown to love it. Oxycodone is extremely weak compared to methadone and if thats what your favourite opiate is then all the power to you. When I wrote I took 500mg of morphine and drank 12 beer and all those shots I actually did it. Morphine doesn't seem to effect me. I know that might seem crazy but it did nothing. I went through 50 , 10mg kadian instant release and nothing happened, no nod, no itch, nothing. I was just drunk more than anything. It just doesnt seem to do anything for me. It's alright but no major effect happen when I take it. I haven't taken it for a while though so who knows. If i had taken 500mg of codeine i would have been shitfaced, so I'm not quite sure how I lived. Come to think of it, I took 7 Demerol 50's around that same time period without drinking and I almost choked on my own tongue and died, go figure. lol. I am not a poser, i know my shit just as well as everyone else so don't piss on me. I guess opioids just work better on me. Hydromorphone never did a damn thing orally for me, it was much like the morphine, it just sedates me. So maybe my body just doesn't like these types of drugs, who knows. Anyways, i'm going to back to sleep. Peace everyone.

ginger
02-02-2006, 09:53 AM
Toradol and Ultram, I avoid that garbage at all costs. Besides heroin, I'd have to say Dilaudid is the absolute best IV drug. There is no better feeling in the world than a shot of D.

OK..now I am shaking just thinking about D! :D I think I need some more codeine and a cup of Irish coffee.

ginger

exitwound
02-02-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm a big WW2 history buff, O-O.....and Methadone was indeed created by the nazi war machine's medical arm as a battlefield narcotic during a shortage of other analgesics powerful enough to manage battefield pain. I have this on the strongest possible authority, so if I'm wrong then I would love to find the evidence proving that!

katomic
02-03-2006, 08:32 AM
Taken from DrugBuyers.com (http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/200898/Main/199464). An interesting way to "treat" tolerance for those of us using opiods for pain management:


"Proglumide Therapy v1.0 - 11/07/2004

I will to my best to rewrite this guide, since it was lost after PW's problems with their ISP, so here goes. I was inspired to write this guide thanks to Missthang, and a few others who IMed me with questions about Proglumide. Several years ago I was having kidney stones, with painful urinary colics in between. I was taking 12-15 10mg of hydrocodone a day for almost 6 months, and I was able to reduce my tolerance to hydrocodone considerably (from 12 down to 5 for myself). Currently, The Dispensary sells a 30 pack of 400mg Proglumide for 68 bucks, which is more than enough for one "session" of Proglumide therapy, which is 5 weeks (21 pills total for one session). The pills will be broken in half, so one pill will be used a day. As for my credentials, I am a registered nurse, currently striving to achieve my CRNA (Certified registered nurse anesthesist).

Proglumide source: http://the-dispensary.com/comfiles/pages/141.shtml (http://the-dispensary.com/comfiles/pages/141.shtml)

Day 1-7
When you wake up: Start out the morning by taking 200mg of Proglumide, along with 75% of your normal hydrocodone dosage. Trust me, this is all you will need with the Proglumide...it's that good.
During the day: Take your normal dosages of hydrocodone, but try to skip one dosage through out the day. It's not going to be hard, since the Proglumide makes the hydrocodone last longer and work a lot more. (Example: Say you are taking 2 pills, 5 times a day. Try to eliminate one dosage where you would take 2 pills, 4 times a day.)
When you go to sleep: Before you're about to go to bed, take the other 200mg of Proglumide, along with 75% of your normal dosage of hydrocodone. Also, take an antihistamine such as Atarax/Vistaril (hydroxyzine) or Benadryl, or a stomach acid medicine such as Zantac or Tagamet. This will help to boost the hydro at night when you are asleep so you will be able to sleep throughout the night with out any disturbances.

Day 8-14
This week you won't be taking any Proglumide, because you can develop a tolerance to Proglumide as well...and we definitely do not want this to happen. By this time, you should be able to eliminate one of your dosages during the day now. (Example: Whereas you were taking 10 hydrocodone pills a day, you should now be able to make it with 8.) If you have a flareup with pain, try not to take any more hydrocodone. Boost it with an antihistamine or acid reducer as mentioned above. If nothing else will help the pain, you may take more hydrocodone. Remember, we're only trying to reduce your tolerance, not make you feel miserable; this is why we're on the painkillers in the first place!

Day 15-21
Repeat cycle from first week, etc.

As mentioned, one "session" is five weeks long, three of which you will be taking the Proglumide. This is a really effective drug for reducing your tolerance to hydrocodone, or any other painkiller for that matter. With this relatively simple guide you should be able to do just that. You may repeat the cycle again in approx. 2-3 months for reducing your opiate tolerance even more. I used 3 cycles of Proglumide therapy and was able to recide my tolerance by at least 50% after the third cycle.

I hope this guide can at least be a stepping stone for people who are interested in Proglumide therapy. If you have any questions, feel free to PM them my way, as I frequent this board several times a day. Hopefully this will benefit others, since everyone on PW has helped me out so much since I've been a member. Most of all, GOOD LUCK!"

katomic
02-03-2006, 08:43 AM
From http://opioids.com/proglumide/index.html

Tolerance, Addiction and Effective Pain Management
some thoughts by K.Trout

A major problem faced by narcotics users and abusers is the well-known development of tolerance when an opiate is given repeatedly over a period of time. This is directly responsible for a number of the problems associated with narcotic use and abuse since increasing tolerance requires that steadily larger doses be used to achieve the same effects or degree of pain relief.

This also underlies much of the crime associated with street addiction as the cost of maintaining a habit also escalates along with the dosage, often leading addicts to turn to drug dealing, prostitution or criminal activities to enable them to afford their daily dose.
Many experienced junkies, especially if heroin users, address this problem by taking regular breaks from their drug of choice, allowing their tolerance to diminish and their effective dosage to also be decreased. Due to the unpredictable quality of unregulated black-market street drugs this can actually be potentially dangerous if they then acquire material of greater potency than they were expecting. (Junkies who relapse after recovery face a similar risk when they return to use.)
Some users employ materials like cimetidine (Tagamet) [R.A.H. 2000] to retard drug metabolism and thereby maximize their effectiveness. [An interesting but unrelated point worthy of further investigation is the report of Peterson et al. 1983 indicating that use of cimetidine one hour before and after administration of large amounts of cocaine to rodents prevented hepatic toxicity and liver damage. Pellinen et al. 1994 also reported a prevention of “metabolism-related hepatotoxicity” by use of Cytochrome P450 3A inhibitors.]
Other users recommend grapefruit juice (Anonymous 2000) to interfere with the metabolism of the opiates by the liver and small intestinal Cytochrome P450 enzyme CYP3A and thus attempt to maximize their per dose effects, blood concentration and duration. While this has been reported by many users to be effective at maximizing per dose results this does not affect the development of tolerance.
Presently many questions remain, as there is also been some conjecture made that administration of grapefruit juice might interfere with the conversion of codeine to morphine due to its lesser inhibition of some CYP subfamilies. This does not seem to be the case; Caraco et al. 1996 reported (in animals) that if codeine was coadministered with selective inhibitors of CYP3A4 this could result in increased morphine production and enhanced effects due to “shunting into the CYP2D6 pathway” (as CYP2D6 would NOT be affected).
It is worth noting that I can thus far locate NOTHING in the *scientific* literature specifically supporting the use of grapefruit juice to increase the general effectiveness of opiates or even that CYP3A is responsible for the metabolism of heroin. Although, it is certainly reasonable to assume that CYP3A is responsible for its metabolism since it is proven as such for other opioids such as codeine (Caraco et al. 1996) and fentanyl (Feierman & Lasker 1996)
Reports of successful application, circulating orally among users (Anonymous 2000 & 2001) and posted on web-based bulletin boards, are common enough that this should be investigated further.
It is important to keep in mind that grapefruit juice can also prove problematic due to the elevated levels of bioavailable drug, requiring a reduction of the dosage. Sometimes it can even be dangerous if certain other drugs are being used. The combination of grapefruit juice with some specific pharmaceuticals has produced many serious problems and even some deaths. (Ameer & Weintraub 1997; Dresser et al. 2000)
Another practice reportedly employed by some narcotic users is combining hydroxyzine with opiates to potentiate their effects. This is said to produce a rough doubling of intensity with the addition of unwanted side effects like a dry mouth. [Anonymous 2000] It appears to have no effect on the development of tolerance.
An interesting approach is the combination of opiates with the opiate antagonists naloxone or naltrexone in miniscule amounts. The combination of less than 0.001% of what would be a normal dose of the antagonist with an opiate allows a far greater response (“at least 50%”) to the opiate which in turn permits a much lower effective dose to be used. It is also said to prevent respiratory depression, tolerance and addiction. This approach has apparently been patented (Crain & Shen 1996) and is being commercially developed by Pain Therapeutics. [R.A.H. 2000; Crain & Shen 2000]
Another interesting comment was made by Karl Jansen (2001) concerning the administration of small oral doses of ketamine being found to be of use in chronic pain clinic for “greatly reducing” the development of tolerance (via blockade of NMDA receptors).
However, many people are unaware that both enhanced effectiveness of narcotic analgesics AND prevention or reversal of tolerance is readily achievable through the oral use of up to 200-250 mg of Proglumide [(DL)-4-Benzamido-N,N-dipropylglutaramic acid]. [See Ott 1999; Watkins et al. 1984]
The work of Watkins suggests there may be a therapeutic dosage window with diminished results above it but more detailed work to define this is apparently lacking.
Rather than simply augment the action of the opiates, proglumide actually interferes with the anti-opioid activity of the neuropeptide CCK.
The chronic administration of opiates, or spinal cord and other CNS injuries, elevates the level of Cholecystokinin (CCK) that is present. Such elevated levels exert an antagonistic effect on opioid activity resulting in significantly diminished analgesic effects. (Watkins et al. 1984; Xu et al. 1993 & 1994)
It is this rise in CCK levels that directly leads to the condition known as drug tolerance and the corresponding increase in its anti-opioid activity that requires the opiate user to use increasingly larger amounts to achieve the same effects.
This anti-opiate effect can be prevented or even reversed through the administration of CCK inhibitors such as proglumide. (Watkins et al. 1984)
Besides just interfering with the adverse action of CCK on opiate activity, proglumide is also known to augment the analgesic effect of opiates. Often this can provide a higher quality of analgesia for those patients who suffer from an incomplete response to pain medications.
Watkins & coworkers reported that proglumide reversed morphine tolerance and also 1) hastened the onset of analgesia, 2) increased the peak levels, and 3) prolonged the duration.
They suggested that not simply did this indicate that effective narcotic doses could be decreased but it also indicated that proglumide might be able to enhance the effects of other procedures, such as acupuncture, which involve endogenous opiates. (Watkins et al. 1984)
Proglumide is a nonselective CCK inhibitor that was formerly employed as an anti-ulcer medication (Hahne et al. 1981). It shows NO analgesic effects of its own.
Although proglumide is now considered to be an obsolete pharmaceutical due to changes in our understandings of ulcer etiology, it has already seen extensive pharmacological and toxicological testing proving its safety and has been approved for use in humans.
It has largely fallen into disuse but is still available in bulk via chemical houses or as a pharmaceutical in Europe and Africa sold under the trade name Milid and Milide.
Other CCK inhibitors show similar properties (Idänpään-Heikkilä et al. 1997; Xu et al. 1993). However, beyond simply having seen previous use in humans, proglumide is both inexpensive and nontoxic. (Ott 1999)
Proglumide is not some sort of magic bullet for completely eliminating the risk of tolerance development and addiction as its effects are only effective for a limited duration before tolerance to IT begins to develop. (After 8 days its effectiveness begins to wane) The work of Kellstein & Mayer 1990 suggests that successful therapeutic/maintenance applications will probably require its discontinuation for a week after each week of use. More work is needed to better define the precise parameters of its effective use for this purpose.
Despite this, proglumide has already demonstrated itself to be of value both in pain management and as an adjunct to maintaining a narcotic addiction within a larger program of harm reduction (Anonymous 2000; Ott 1999).
What is fascinating is how few drug educators, drug treatment facilities or even drug users are aware of this despite it being readily available information for nearly 20 years.
If development of tolerance and the high price of a sustained addiction are truly as serious of a problem as we all agree that they are, one can only wonder how it is that, despite the tools existing to remove or at least reduce this problem, there seems to be no interest or research except on a limited scale related to specific small areas of chronic pain management and understanding.
The current misguided approach of substituting methadone is commonly reported to actually cause MORE perceptual and thinking problems than the opiates it replaces PLUS methadone is known to cause physical damage to internal organs that are not encountered with opiate use itself.
Harm reduction approaches would benefit greatly by using proglumide as a cornerstone and making it readily available to both narcotic users and abusers.
Those who will most certainly object include organized crime and drug dealers who enjoy the obscene profits reaped from escalating drug tolerances, and possibly also the so-called “drug educators” that sadly often seem to be the ones most in need of some factual education.
There are many problems associated with opiate use and abuse. While the majority of these are legal in origin, the most sensible approach would be to ameliorate [or mitigate] those that aren’t.
Increased analgesic effectiveness and prevention of tolerance are two obvious areas where harm reduction is readily possible TODAY. Both sufferers of chronic pain and narcotic addicts stand to benefit from having their needs met and their health risks simultaneously decreased.
As this is first and foremost a health problem, the current approach of harm maximization is both counterproductive and unacceptable. To a rationale or caring mind it might even be perceived of as unethical and amoral. Not only do sufferers of chronic pain and narcotic addicts stand to benefit from such harm reduction approaches but, by decreasing drug-associated crimes, a significant area of the true “drug problem” can be directly addressed, thereby benefiting society as a whole.

hovadagod
02-03-2006, 09:13 PM
uhhhhh....the half-life of bupe is not 2.2 hours. That is so far off base.

THEPAINTER1960
03-02-2006, 04:40 PM
I dont know man. I know for sure for me about 100mcg.of fentanyl I.V. will be about my strongest opioid .But be very carefull . Respitory depression is always a danger invovled in fentanyl useage. BE SAFE PEACE.

MadManApothecary
03-03-2006, 07:13 PM
Last year in my psychology class my professor said something that really caught my attention. "Heroin definately has it issues but oxycontin" and then he basicly said that it was worse and had many issues of its own. I have been addicted to oxycontin for about 3 1/2 years and have tried it IV. I have done many different opiates with the exception of suboxone, the bupes and leva, oxymorphone but just recently I decided to try heroin IV and have found that even at low doses it lasts much much longer and does a good job of controlling my herniated disc pain, which has been messed up for about 7 months. I was just curious if anyone has any info on oxy vs. heroin withdrawal, and if anyone new these issues my professor was talking about? I'm almost to the point of calling him and coming up witha bullshit reason to need the info.

Tar_Baby
03-13-2006, 06:19 AM
ontario_opiophile:

Buddy, you've got it wrong. You can find studies done on these issues in any comprehensive college/university pharmacology book. Methadone does not have the same "high" associated with the more potent narcotics like morphine, heroin, hydromorphone, or oxymorphone. The effects of methadone take a while before they set in and they last long, therefore no "initial" rush or "high" for that matter. Studies indicate that morphine sulfate is the most intense narcotic when compared in equanalgesic doses. Followed by heroin and oxymorphone. Methadone is about as potent as oxycodone and hydrocodone. It's effects are less intense than that of oxycodone, but greater than that of hydrocodone. Methadone's dependance liability is equal to that of hydrocodone and less than that of oxycodone.

Also, I really don't believe you were able to take "500 mg of morphine with beer and shots" while you were "opiate naive" and survived to see another day. Also, if you think hydromorphone is "weak" and methadone is "strong" that means you have confused all your drugs - if hydromorphone was weak to you, than by all means methadone would be worthless, considering that hydromorphone is about 10 times as potent - it defies logic and science. I don't by it or believe it. I just think you have an infatuation with methadone, which is according to most pharmacologists and street users a "secondary" opiate of abuse. Nobody would choose methadone, if morphine, heroin, oxycodone, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, meperidine, or levorphanol are around. I personally wouldn't even choose it over hydrocodone because it's effects are slow coming and last a long time(it feels like a heroin hangover).

Matter of fact, according to leading pharmacologists these below are the official medically classified "potent" narcotics, I'm posting only the obvious ones, there are many more. Unfortunately, methadone is not one of them. (Source: Purdue):

Morphine, Heroin, Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, Levorphanol, Meperidine, Fentanyl, Sufentinal. Methadone was never classified medically as a "potent" narcotic, therefore completely outclassed and outmatched by morphine in both effect intensity/euphoria, dependence liability, and potency. Methadone can't hold a candle to morphine.

That statement is false, I dont have the time to look up ref at the moment though

THEPAINTER1960
03-13-2006, 06:09 PM
:p
I have found that if ya wack up a large amount initially there is a good chance of oding, but if ya start slow ya can end up having enough to kill a horse, so who the fuck really knows? I dont know man i think the strongest opiod swim had ever done had to be Fentanayl. The first time SWIM had used a 100mcg. duragesic patch I.V. I mean like come on there is like nothing like a Fentanayl rush. Nothing.

THEPAINTER1960
03-13-2006, 06:27 PM
Man how about that Fentanayl . I know for me in my active addiction a 100 mcg patch i. v. was absolute fantastic. But all i have right now thank GOD is my methadone . Man who sets up these so called eq. charts.

blahblahblah
03-13-2006, 10:50 PM
Nothing like diluadid and heroin in one shot, the bests of both worlds.

jab
03-14-2006, 12:19 PM
Close, but I'd prefer Morphine and D in one shot. Heaven! :D

Opiyum
04-15-2006, 05:00 PM
It's 60ccs of Etorphine alongside my coffee in the morning. Sometime's I need two cups... that stuffs kinda stong. For lunch I find nothing more intoxicating than the aroma of Hydrocyanic acid with my BLT(add Onion extra mayo). At dinner I've noticed that Warfarin really brings out the flavour of the roasted Poblano's in my tri-pepper chilli.

With so much anger in this thread I thought I'd be the one to add some humor...Just working off the karmic debt I've incurred while being here...

vanilla_mlkshake2007
07-08-2006, 03:31 PM
I agre with you morphine dreams I being a morphine addict myself had to stop IV'ng morphine at 240 milligrams this morning as the incedible rushes I was receiving were beginning to take a tole on my blood pressure.For Once I had hit an excellent vein I wanted to take advantage of this and although I split my 120's in half I did do 4 good hitsand this was just an occaisional treat I do not do this much on an ordinary morning basis.If Ontario did do 500 milligrams of morphine along with that much alcohol it definately wasn't IR.It was time released and I don't think the pills were crushed up as mine were for IV use.That was also not IMO a good list of the way drugs should be placed in order .For me Morphine and Heroin would be at the top.Followed by dilauds then oxys then Percocets then Darvocets although I know many would disagree there I just don't get high off Vicodins or Codiene period.We won't even get started with the Methadone as that is a complete waste of money and time, but then maybe Ontario was a lil intoxicated with alcohol when he wrote the thread and therefore has them confused.But Your List was alot better then his Again I don't mean to start any trouble I just totally agree with Morphine Dreams.

vanilla_mlkshake2007
07-08-2006, 04:04 PM
What you are saying is all bullshit. You sound like you are some geeky fucker who has never even tried an opiate. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about Methadone wasn't even created because of a shortage of morphine or as a substitute for morphine. Nazi scientists were trying to develop an anti-spasmodic or something of the sort. They were giving their test subjects huge doses and killing them so they figured it wasn't anything interesting. It wasn't until they lowered the doses, that they realized they had come up with something useful. Methadone is more potent than morphine. You can't tell me that 50mg of morphine is stronger than 50mg of methadone. If you tell me that, you are insane. 50mg of methadone is like getting 50mg of morphine 2-4 times a day. lol. You are mentally defficient my friend. The long effects of the drug make it more powerful in my opinion. Sure it doesn't give the same rush to someone who uses intravenously but for oral users like myself it does the trick and the euphoria is quite good and lasts alot longer than anything else out there. I don't have a fascination with methadone only, it's just the only thing I have access too other than oxycodone, so i've grown to love it. Oxycodone is extremely weak compared to methadone and if thats what your favourite opiate is then all the power to you. When I wrote I took 500mg of morphine and drank 12 beer and all those shots I actually did it. Morphine doesn't seem to effect me. I know that might seem crazy but it did nothing. I went through 50 , 10mg kadian instant release and nothing happened, no nod, no itch, nothing. I was just drunk more than anything. It just doesnt seem to do anything for me. It's alright but no major effect happen when I take it. I haven't taken it for a while though so who knows. If i had taken 500mg of codeine i would have been shitfaced, so I'm not quite sure how I lived. Come to think of it, I took 7 Demerol 50's around that same time period without drinking and I almost choked on my own tongue and died, go figure. lol. I am not a poser, i know my shit just as well as everyone else so don't piss on me. I guess opioids just work better on me. Hydromorphone never did a damn thing orally for me, it was much like the morphine, it just sedates me. So maybe my body just doesn't like these types of drugs, who knows. Anyways, i'm going to back to sleep. Peace everyone.

irst of all I have vnever heard of Kadiens IR Now I may be wrong but seeming Avinzas and Kadien are my drug of Chice and always have to be crushed I can guarentee that had you opened the capsules and crushed the lil white balls you would have gotten an extremely good buzz possibly to the point of vomitting,but then again we got al kinds of people in my state who are taking the time release balls out of the capsules and filling them with lil white balls of Dexatrim,diet pills and Efflexor.So unless they came from your pharmacy can you be 100% sure they were actually Kadiens at all.Again never heard of IR Kadiens so the balls would have had to have been crushed for them to be IR,It just sounds to me like you have no idea about drugs besides methadone and alcohol.Just my honest opinion I'm sure you disagree strongly.Oh well sorry just had to post for this one.

SirDonkeyPunch
07-08-2006, 04:16 PM
i havent heard of IR Kadiens either and generally 500mg of morphine even in a person with a strong tolerance would show some signs of it being there. People used to do that with the adderol (replacing the time release balls) around here, why.. i dont know.. all these school kids love to take it to study for tests and whatnot and you can get like 8 a pill out here for those. when will people find the REAL drugs.

Brony
07-23-2006, 04:46 PM
Dilaudid is the absolute best IV drug

i can't agree more. mmmm, Dilaudid (drooling at the thought of it):D

HeidiW
07-30-2006, 11:09 AM
HELL YEAH!!! I might sell my soul to the devil for some Dilaudid ampules.

HappinessIsaWarmGun
08-04-2006, 07:57 AM
I thimk the most important thing about enjoying opiates for me is to change, the dose, the drug, the times etc. I take enzyme inhibitors to decrease elimination, and I take sopiforic herbs to get a downer effect. I try and change my regimine every few months. buprenorphine is a great tool for dropping tolerance..............
Agreed! Even when using the same substance (say, Dilaudid) there is no need to continuously increase one's tolerance (and the $$$ going out) in order to keep getting a good buzz.

By taking a few days every so often to reduce the dose a bit, or increase times between dosing, you can find yourself adequately pleased with the same dose for a long time.

Let's say you get a good buzz from 8mg. If you keep doing 8mg six times per day you'll eventually find that it just doesn't flip your switch, and you'll go up to 10mg six times per day.

However, if you throw in a few days of just five doses a day at 6mg every so often, you'll find that you will keep getting the same bang for the same buck when you again do 8mgs.

And yeah, if you actually add in a different opiod into the mix every so often, that too can be an additional positive factor toward keeping one's dose for continuous increase.

It is just so unnecessary (ie. ridiculous) to keep increasing one's dose, to say nothing of potentially calaminous. Since we know tolerence exists, it makes sense to figure out a method to keep on top of tolerence and not let it get the best of us.

If it wasn't for such little periods of restraint every so often, my dose and expenses would inevitably sky-rocket into the unmanageable zone, and I'd be out there robbing banks again. So I find that occassional self-imposing short periods of self-restraint is much preferable to the state-imposed extended sentences of state-restraint that loom otherwise. A little self-control is a whole lot better than a bunch of state-control.

vanilla_mlkshake2007
08-05-2006, 07:41 PM
What you are saying is all bullshit. You sound like you are some geeky fucker who has never even tried an opiate. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about Methadone wasn't even created because of a shortage of morphine or as a substitute for morphine. Nazi scientists were trying to develop an anti-spasmodic or something of the sort. They were giving their test subjects huge doses and killing them so they figured it wasn't anything interesting. It wasn't until they lowered the doses, that they realized they had come up with something useful. Methadone is more potent than morphine. You can't tell me that 50mg of morphine is stronger than 50mg of methadone. If you tell me that, you are insane. 50mg of methadone is like getting 50mg of morphine 2-4 times a day. lol. You are mentally defficient my friend. The long effects of the drug make it more powerful in my opinion. Sure it doesn't give the same rush to someone who uses intravenously but for oral users like myself it does the trick and the euphoria is quite good and lasts alot longer than anything else out there. I don't have a fascination with methadone only, it's just the only thing I have access too other than oxycodone, so i've grown to love it. Oxycodone is extremely weak compared to methadone and if thats what your favourite opiate is then all the power to you. When I wrote I took 500mg of morphine and drank 12 beer and all those shots I actually did it. Morphine doesn't seem to effect me. I know that might seem crazy but it did nothing. I went through 50 , 10mg kadian instant release and nothing happened, no nod, no itch, nothing. I was just drunk more than anything. It just doesnt seem to do anything for me. It's alright but no major effect happen when I take it. I haven't taken it for a while though so who knows. If i had taken 500mg of codeine i would have been shitfaced, so I'm not quite sure how I lived. Come to think of it, I took 7 Demerol 50's around that same time period without drinking and I almost choked on my own tongue and died, go figure. lol. I am not a poser, i know my shit just as well as everyone else so don't piss on me. I guess opioids just work better on me. Hydromorphone never did a damn thing orally for me, it was much like the morphine, it just sedates me. So maybe my body just doesn't like these types of drugs, who knows. Anyways, i'm going to back to sleep. Peace everyone.
50 milligrams of morphine is better then 100 milligrams of methadone to me.To each his own.Call me an idiot but I know when I am enjoying myself and crfying in misery,that for sure tells me I am not the idiot here.Oh and also w/my 5 year use of several different opiates several different ways admimistered I think I am far from a geeky mother fucker who knows not what I am talking about,and if you went through 50 kadiens and all that other shit you deffinately are bullshitting,Especially if it was your first time lol Besides that Kadiens as far as I know are time released not instant release.Did you crush the lil balls up really good to make them instant release or something?

HappinessIsaWarmGun
08-06-2006, 09:49 AM
Did you crush the lil balls up really good to make them instant release or something? Yep, that's the only way its actually going to be like taking 500mg dose of morphine.

If the balls aren't crushed, and the slow (sustained) release is in effect, then you are only getting around 1mgs (just guesstimating on the high end) from each ball at any one time because they release the entire 10mg over 24 hours. Of course, one ball's release is still acting while another happens, so there is a cumulative buildup of dose.

Nonetheless, eating 50 10mgs Kadians without crushing them would feel at the most like taking somewhere between 10-20mgs of fast acting morphine. No wonder ontario_opiophile didn't feel much of anything, especially since he was drunk... :p

nick
08-22-2006, 02:10 PM
I get pure H on script and I find it hard to believe someone with no tolerance could shoot 1000 milligrams.I got 150 mgs a day and the most I ever shoot at one time was 100 mgs and that knocked me on my arse.This was with the best part of a decade to build tolerance.The largest H script it's possible to get is 500mgs this is for long term users who will never quite.
At times of H shortage I got physeptone.60 mgs of phy=150mgs of H.

Sitar
08-24-2006, 08:06 PM
I dunno... everyone's a little different, but I have found that Tramadol is better in all ways than Propoxyphene. Of course, neither one is very good once you have any amount of tolerance to opiates.

stross
11-15-2006, 01:39 PM
http://www.thatspoppycock.com/l_calc.htm
There are a bunch of different dosage converters (in both chart and calculator form) at the link above. There's also a cool program you can download which does the same; however, it costs money after some number of day, and is not worth it to purchase the program.

euphoria2002
12-07-2006, 05:28 PM
Here's one I like to use

http://www.globalrph.com/narcotic.cgi

and another....

http://www.medcalc.com/narcotics.html

They're pretty good bc you can compare oral vs IV strength for the same drug if you like.

flipside
12-07-2006, 06:17 PM
Here's one I like to use

http://www.globalrph.com/narcotic.cgi

and another....

http://www.medcalc.com/narcotics.html

They're pretty good bc you can compare oral vs IV strength for the same drug if you like.

Thanks for the link. I am taking it in to the PM doc to prove that I wasn't bllowing smoke up his ass about the fact that dose conversion he was using was incorrect.. I am getting less than 1/3rd of what I should be. This is concrete proof that my equivalents were correct and his were not.

May not do any good, perhaps seeing it in balck and white will help.
'Hell I've got nothing left to lose at this point. Except a little more dignity.

euphoria2002
12-07-2006, 07:32 PM
There's more to it than just that. Allowances need to be made for cross-tolerance.
When you build up a tolerance for one type of narcotic, you tend to make yourself more resistant to others, even if you've never taken them.

The level of cross-tolerance can vary depending on the individual, and with the different combinations (permutations?) of drugs. The answer is to have your PM Dr. work with you in order to titrate the proper dosages for some EFFECTIVE pain control.

Feel free to tell him your Canadian Physician friend said so.

euphoria2002
12-08-2006, 06:51 PM
Hi Flipside,
I was thinking about your situation some more today while I was at work. There is a drug that isn't available up here, but to my knowlege IS available in the States. It's called Proglumide.

Proglumide is a CCK inhibitor. If you already know about this, just skip reading the rest of my post..... anyways. CCK is a protein that is one of the body's responses to opiates. It is partly responsible for the tolerance that occurs. The proglumide can help reduce your tolerance and thus makes your dosages more effective.

Unfortunately proglumide doesn't work forever because you can develop a tolerance to IT after a week or two. Still, it can help. Hope things work out for the best.

flipside
12-08-2006, 09:04 PM
There's more to it than just that. Allowances need to be made for cross-tolerance.
When you build up a tolerance for one type of narcotic, you tend to make yourself more resistant to others, even if you've never taken them.

The level of cross-tolerance can vary depending on the individual, and with the different combinations (permutations?) of drugs. The answer is to have your PM Dr. work with you in order to titrate the proper dosages for some EFFECTIVE pain control.

Feel free to tell him your Canadian Physician friend said so.


Yes I know, I'm not an easy patient to treat. i really don';t envy any of my doctors PM or any other specialists that I see. Problem is when they don't want to titrate any more because my tolerance is already so high. I understand their need to CYA honestly i do ad I actually have a very open and honest relationship with my current PM doc, but they are under such scrutiny, hell they are only allowed to have 3o patients on Duragesic per physician in the practice. And are unwilling to rx an effective med for .breakthough. I did the oral to Iv concersion and the IV amount I was getting was less than 1/3 of the PO dose of the same drug the mscontin. I really would not want to be my doctor and I really don;'t want to be me either. You understand what I mean.


Hi Flipside,

was thinking about your situation some more today while I was at work. There is a drug that isn't available up here, but to my knowlege IS available in the States. It's called Proglumide.

Proglumide is a CCK inhibitor. If you already know about this, just skip reading the rest of my post..... anyways. CCK is a protein that is one of the body's responses to opiates. It is partly responsible for the tolerance that occurs. The proglumide can help reduce your tolerance and thus makes your dosages more effective.

Unfortunately proglumide doesn't work forever because you can develop a tolerance to IT after a week or two. Still, it can help. Hope things work out for the best.

Actually I did not know about this particular CCK inhibitor, thanks for the info. I may be able to get a script for this and since they are unwilling or unable to increase my dose at this point ( or switch to another delivery system..at this point we did discuss an intrathecal cath but I don't know about that...apparently the protien C & S deficiency makes the procedure quite risky for someone in my current state of health hence also why no neurosurgeon will touch me either)

I will def mention it at my next appointmentas well as the above stated reference to cross tolerance and I will tell them my Canadian doctor friend told me so! :) Thanks Euphoria.
I am also going back to see my Pm doc in maryland whilehiome for X-mas as well as getting a consult with the rheumatologist, neurosurgeon and the hem/oncologist. Mabey if they all work as a team it's possible that surgery for the CP problem not related to the bone CA. could be done without the odds being 99:1. Thanks again!

Frozen
12-24-2006, 06:49 PM
Taken from DrugBuyers.com (http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/200898/Main/199464). An interesting way to "treat" tolerance for those of us using opiods for pain management:
"Proglumide Therapy v1.0 - 11/07/2004
Proglumide source: http://the-dispensary.com/comfiles/pages/141.shtml (http://the-dispensary.com/comfiles/pages/141.shtml)


I'm interested, but the above mentioned source no longer exists.
Anyone have one that works? Thanx in advance.

halfalien_s4
03-16-2007, 12:07 PM
ive mixed tramadol with othewr opiates before and it was great.....but i would say over the yrs my fave has become fent - especially the lollipops.....the patches dont do shit 4 me. i also love D and oxy when i can get it....

Chemical_Boy
03-17-2007, 02:31 AM
ive mixed tramadol with othewr opiates before and it was great.....but i would say over the yrs my fave has become fent - especially the lollipops.....the patches dont do shit 4 me. i also love D and oxy when i can get it....

I must admit, I have a certain fondness for the lollipops myself.:party:

They are like a party for your taste buds. I like the grape flavor. Course after having these, I will never be able to eat a regular sucker again.

halfalien_s4
03-17-2007, 11:07 AM
i ALWAYS use multible opiates at the same time to potentiate each other....

cjd83us
03-21-2007, 08:57 AM
I dont see how the oxymorphone one could be right considering that it is 10x as strong as morphine. and seeing as 20 mg of opana er is what they are switching people on 40mg to 80mg of oxycodone over to. just dont seem right to me

roxi*stardust
04-14-2007, 01:30 PM
I dont see how the oxymorphone one could be right considering that it is 10x as strong as morphine. and seeing as 20 mg of opana er is what they are switching people on 40mg to 80mg of oxycodone over to. just dont seem right to me
When they compare Morphine, they always use the IV dose to compare it to other drugs never oral. Same thing with Fentanyl. Those drugs aremost effective when given IV. That's why.

Woowoo
04-25-2007, 06:56 AM
This is a very interesting chart but like most people here I was confused at how the data was presented. For my own sanity I rewrote the chart in a more accessable way. My chart below uses their figures, but it normalized morphine to a value of "1" and then rates everything in proportion to morphine. So for example, hydromorphone comes in at 6.67 because it's presumably 6.67 times stronger than morphine. I only used the "I.M." column for my inverted chart.

Fentanyl ... 100.00
Buprenorphine ... 33.33
Oxymorphone ... 10.00
Hydromorphone ... 6.67
Levorphanol ... 5.00
Diacetylmorphine (Heroin) ... 2.00
Methadone ... 1.00
Morphine ... 1.00
Oxycodone ... 1.00
Hydrocodone ... 0.50
Dihydrocodeine ... 0.15
Meperidine ... 0.14
Codeine ... 0.08

evilfix
07-18-2007, 08:59 PM
damn, if i had more than 2 opiates at once if sure as hell use them.

elegua
08-27-2007, 11:38 AM
Jonathan Ott in his book pharmacophilia relates studies that show that only 10% of the population actually feels euphoria from opiates. maybe the people that feel euphoria have an endogenous opioid deficiency?
I like any opiate. period. I cant say something sucks just because I am not in and out of consiousness or because it doesnt carry a rush.

-------

Funny you say that -- both my parents HATE opiates/opioids, and will only take some when there are no feasible alternative (for example, they might have a bleed out if they were to take ketoralac). I've never seen my father finish a bottle of prescription opiates, same with mom. Now, my grandmother and myself...let's just say we have comparable biochemistry...

Saint
08-28-2007, 07:21 AM
Relative strenghts can be weird. I just came off methadone to switch to subs and according to this site http://heroinhelper.com/curious/pharmacology/strength.shtml#morphineNote
1.2 mg of buprenorfine (sub) equals 20 mgs of methadon (orally). Well I quit methadone after I did a quick taper from 20 to 5 mgs and am using 5 mgs of subs since yesterday - so that should equal 100 mgs of methadone!! Well, haha, I only wish....
If that were true I would feel GOOD or at least normal now instead of slightly withdrawling.
5 mgs of buprenorfine is definitely way too low a dose for me.
Maybe I should add that I have been on methadone for 23 years so my receptors might have some troubles switching over but I definitely DON'T feel free of cravings/withdrawals on 5 mgs yet..

And my highest methadonedose in the past 3 years was 30 to 40 mgs...

Duckfeet
08-28-2007, 11:24 AM
Hey Saint: And I know u know, I'm following you're switchover with interest. And I also felt that their comparison charts had no basis in reality at all, everybody on subs seemed to have such *different* reactions, so it almost seems like a "gut" thing on what works, and what doesn't. But I will say, I started out at a higher dose 12-16 both times, but quckly got down to 4mg, once I stabilized, as it doesn't seem to matter all that much, no buzz, for me, and mentally, well, I didn't have much luck mentally, with the subs, but I'm hoping you will, since u were at lower dose and all. I myself dropped from 100 to 80mg of mdone today, see how that works...right now I'm thinking of trying to aim for around 50mg daily, as the two guys I know, who seem a lot like me, but were actually happy on longterm mdone dose, were at 50mg, so we'll see....seems like u can't win. Myself hope someday somehow, I'll get on diamorphine maint, but we all have our dreams....

Good luck girl...



Relative strenghts can be weird. I just came off methadone to switch to subs and according to this site http://heroinhelper.com/curious/pharmacology/strength.shtml#morphineNote
1.2 mg of buprenorfine (sub) equals 20 mgs of methadon (orally). Well I quit methadone after I did a quick taper from 20 to 5 mgs and am using 5 mgs of subs since yesterday - so that should equal 100 mgs of methadone!! Well, haha, I only wish....
If that were true I would feel GOOD or at least normal now instead of slightly withdrawling.
5 mgs of buprenorfine is definitely way too low a dose for me.
Maybe I should add that I have been on methadone for 23 years so my receptors might have some troubles switching over but I definitely DON'T feel free of cravings/withdrawals on 5 mgs yet..

And my highest methadonedose in the past 3 years was 30 to 40 mgs...

Saint
09-01-2007, 06:27 AM
Hey Saint: And I know u know, I'm following you're switchover with interest. And I also felt that their comparison charts had no basis in reality at all, everybody on subs seemed to have such *different* reactions, so it almost seems like a "gut" thing on what works, and what doesn't. But I will say, I started out at a higher dose 12-16 both times, but quckly got down to 4mg, once I stabilized, as it doesn't seem to matter all that much, no buzz, for me, and mentally, well, I didn't have much luck mentally, with the subs, but I'm hoping you will, since u were at lower dose and all. I myself dropped from 100 to 80mg of mdone today, see how that works...right now I'm thinking of trying to aim for around 50mg daily, as the two guys I know, who seem a lot like me, but were actually happy on longterm mdone dose, were at 50mg, so we'll see....seems like u can't win. Myself hope someday somehow, I'll get on diamorphine maint, but we all have our dreams....

Good luck girl...

I went up to 12 mgs yesterday but today (6th day) I still feel like shite. 12 mgs seemed to *almost* work but only for 6 to 8 hours or so and then I started feeling worse rapidly. I think 16mgs should do the trick. I'll talk to my doc tomorrow. I just can't fucking believe I'd need that much after coming off such a low dose of done!!! Anyway, I posted an update in my sub-to-done-thread as well. Maybe others have experienced the same thing.

havok
01-22-2008, 08:14 AM
oxymorphone 100,hydromorphone 150

I think this is wrong. Oxymorphone (Opana) is stronger than hydromorphone (Dilaudid).

Also, I would have to say that the best rush I have gotten was when I mixed an OC80, an 8mg dilauaid, and 0.1g of coke all together in one shot and slammed it all at once. Needless to say, I was fucked up. Hahah.

havok
01-22-2008, 08:31 AM
Hello everyone i'm new here, but not new to opiates/opioids. Tramadol is a pile of horse shit. For most people it is horrible and makes them feel rather shitty. But, ocassionally it can make some people high as hell. Unfortunately it has no effect on me. Oxycodone is weak to me. So is morphine. When I was somewhat opiate naive I could take about 500mg of morphine and drink 12 beer and 6-8 2 ounce shots and I wouldnt pass out or have any adverse effects. I seem to be more sensitive to opioids. Methadone is one that gives me a great high. I get injectable methadone liquid without the orange juice crap in it. Or I can get the powder for injection or oral use. It's better than Heroin for me. I find that hydromorphone is totally weak also. But then again I have a horrible illness that makes me really sick and it's hard to find anything that will kill my pain, let alone give me a buzz. I suffer from chronic fevers, horrible joint, muscle and bone pain, a severe blood disorder that causes me to gush blood out of my nose at least twice a day, and I have adrenal insufficiency and have recently been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. I just turned 20 and have been like this for 3 years and methadone is the only one that helps. The brand is METADOL (powder or oral 10mg/ml liquid without crap in it). I take Endocet (oxycodone w/acetaminophen) at night to help me take the edge off my fevers and pain. But it has no effect on me and never really did. I would really like to try Fentanyl but it's not possible. I've had the pink patches 3 years ago when I first got sick but only went through 2 boxes of them and made a switch to morphine. I really think those actiq suckers would help me. The patches are useless. If anyone ever gets ahold of actiq you know who to call ;)

Oxycodone is kinda weak. It's a medium strength opiate in my opinion. It can be strong when IV'd but it's just an average painkiller. For some people it could be better than heroin or anything stronger.

And about the Oxymorphone. Oxymorphone is NOT a medium strength opiate. Hydromorphone is weaker than Oxymorphone in my opinion and i'm sure most people would agree if they had used it IV like they have used Hydromorphone. It's hardly a medium strength opiate. It's equal to Diacetyl morphine. (in my opinion)

And another thing. Putting Methadone in the same class as Oxycodone and Hydrocodone is not right. Methadone is above Levorphanol and is just as strong as Morphine. I think Oxycodone is just about as strong as morphine. It's probably 3/4 the strength of Morphine, maybe a little bit less. Levorphanol is not up there with hydromorphone. I'll make my list of weakest to strongest opiate/opioids.

Tramadol, Propoxyphene Napsylate, Propoxyphene Hydrochloride, Codeine Phosphate, Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Levorphanol Morphine and Methadone are equal in strength, Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, Dipipanone, Heroin, Fentanyl and it's analogs, Etorphine.

I didn't include Pentazocine or Butorphanol or Buprenorphine because they are strange drugs with crazy effects and not worthy of being on my list. Bupe is semi-worthy and could be considered much stronger than morphine in analgesic strength but it doesn't really make you high. I started with Tramadol as the one that makes you least high, and ended with Etorphine with the one that would make you the most high or kill you. Whatever comes first. But then again this is just my own list and many people will disagree so don't pay any attention to it. I just think it's crazy to call Methadone a weaker drug than Morphine or Levorphanol. Most people who take methadone orally can't even tell the difference between oral Heroin and oral Methadone. And IV methadone is just as nice as heroin and you know it's pure and not full of some syphillitic pakistani mans shit. Oh well thats another drug induced rant.


Wow I have never heard of someone that prefers Methadone over oxycodone, hydromorphone, heroin, morphine, and oxymorphone. Do you usually IV or eat your meds? If you are eating them I could maybe understand, but IV heroin or IV oxymorphone will blow the socks off any methadone. Methadone is on the very bottom of my list of opiates.

Also, if you are used to morphine/heroin, the high you get from oxycodone is a lot different. It is much more speedy and wakes you up, where as morphine sedates you a lot more and just knocks you out. I bet that if you tried taking oxycodone for a week, you would start to like it alot more. It takes a little while to get adjusted to different opiates if you havent taken them regularly. If you are eating hydromorphone or oxymorphone, dont bother, as it is a total waste. Ketones of morphine (such as oxymorphone and hydromorphone) have horrible bio-availability in your stomach. They are a hundred times better IV'ed.

Personally I think oxycodone is way better than morphine, I love slamming 160mg of oxy right to the dome. However I still prefer heroin over any other opiate. But there is a big difference between the high from oxycodone and heroin. If you experiment more with different opiates, you will start to understand and appreciate the differences.

Nate
01-22-2008, 09:05 AM
Havok - Just so you know man, Ontario Opiophile posted that 2 years+ ago bro. Keep an eye on the dates, this thread is very very old lol.

Opiyum
01-22-2008, 11:28 AM
I think this is wrong. Oxymorphone (Opana) is stronger than hydromorphone (Dilaudid).

Also, I would have to say that the best rush I have gotten was when I mixed an OC80, an 8mg dilauaid, and 0.1g of coke all together in one shot and slammed it all at once. Needless to say, I was fucked up. Hahah.

That sounds like a great shot.

fieldgoal
05-29-2008, 05:50 AM
I think this is wrong. Oxymorphone (Opana) is stronger than hydromorphone (Dilaudid).

Also, I would have to say that the best rush I have gotten was when I mixed an OC80, an 8mg dilauaid, and 0.1g of coke all together in one shot and slammed it all at once. Needless to say, I was fucked up. Hahah.

IV oxymorphone is extremly potent. The oral bioavalibility is only 10%. In an IV dose oxymorphone is stronger than dilaudid, but orally hydromorphone is a little stronger. IMO, the strongest and the opioid medication for pain is Fentanyl. I saw some people talking about the Actiq. Well I have taken actiq 1600mcg and fentora 800mcg. The fentora felt like it was equal to a 2000mcg of actiq. I would really like some info on the intranasal fent. or sufentanil if anyone would be so kind. Both of the meds have the possibility of real changing the breakthrough pain market.

HandMeSomeOpiates
06-20-2008, 12:39 AM
Jonathan Ott in his book pharmacophilia relates studies that show that only 10% of the population actually feels euphoria from opiates.


I have to disagree with that statement.... I see A LOT of opiate addicts these days. Oxy and Fent are rising in popularity each year. I'd say more than 10% feel euphoria unless they are doing opiates just to do them haha No pun intended elegua, just a difference in opinion.

HandMeSomeOpiates
06-20-2008, 12:42 AM
I think this is wrong. Oxymorphone (Opana) is stronger than hydromorphone (Dilaudid).

Also, I would have to say that the best rush I have gotten was when I mixed an OC80, an 8mg dilauaid, and 0.1g of coke all together in one shot and slammed it all at once. Needless to say, I was fucked up. Hahah.


Havok your avatar gives me a chubby....;)

robojunkie
08-18-2008, 06:52 PM
IV FENTANYL! End of story!!! I've had pure IV diamorphine, both the fent and the dia 99%+ purity, and I'll tell you this, the hit from pure uncut diamorphine is much much better than the street shit with all the crappy sedative junk and whatever else they dump in it. And that's to say nothing for you poor fuckers out west that gots to deal with the tar crap, God knows what's in that shit.

IV fentanyl beats any opioid, next come IV diamorphine and then the rest are a toss up, though I've never had opana and I'd love to give Etorphine a whirl, not to mention Carfentanil. Fuck it how about a 50/50 Etorphine/Carfentanil hit? 1 mg each in about a liter of water. Boo yeah!!!

My time shall come brothers and sisters, you'll be the first to hear that one, though it won't likely be for a long time.

Hell, how about etoniazide? I heard about a Russian chemist who was cooking that shit and dealing or some such shit and he got popped, killed himself in prison. I understand he had an epic tolerance, and I can see how the withdrawals of that size habit (BTDT) could do one in in that environment. Pure HELL!!!

pharmboy
08-18-2008, 07:53 PM
I dont want to think about Jail in Russia. But hay Robo if you could whip up some

M-99, Just a gram, You'd have shit for life.
.
.
And then you could share the Synth with all your buddies. Ha Ha

Papa Verine
08-29-2008, 09:45 AM
IV FENTANYL! End of story!!! I've had pure IV diamorphine, both the fent and the dia 99%+ purity, and I'll tell you this, the hit from pure uncut diamorphine is much much better than the street shit with all the crappy sedative junk and whatever else they dump in it. And that's to say nothing for you poor fuckers out west that gots to deal with the tar crap, God knows what's in that shit.

IV fentanyl beats any opioid, next come IV diamorphine and then the rest are a toss up, though I've never had opana and I'd love to give Etorphine a whirl, not to mention Carfentanil. Fuck it how about a 50/50 Etorphine/Carfentanil hit? 1 mg each in about a liter of water. Boo yeah!!!

My time shall come brothers and sisters, you'll be the first to hear that one, though it won't likely be for a long time.

Hell, how about etoniazide? I heard about a Russian chemist who was cooking that shit and dealing or some such shit and he got popped, killed himself in prison. I understand he had an epic tolerance, and I can see how the withdrawals of that size habit (BTDT) could do one in in that environment. Pure HELL!!!

Hey Robojunk, What the Fuck is "etoniazide", some little known cutting edge chemical? I did a google search on it and all that came up were 2 blog posts (3 now I guess)...

milkybarkid
08-30-2008, 07:18 PM
Wow I have never heard of someone that prefers Methadone over oxycodone, hydromorphone, heroin, morphine, and oxymorphone. Do you usually IV or eat your meds? If you are eating them I could maybe understand, but IV heroin or IV oxymorphone will blow the socks off any methadone. Methadone is on the very bottom of my list of opiates.

Also, if you are used to morphine/heroin, the high you get from oxycodone is a lot different. It is much more speedy and wakes you up, where as morphine sedates you a lot more and just knocks you out. I bet that if you tried taking oxycodone for a week, you would start to like it alot more. It takes a little while to get adjusted to different opiates if you havent taken them regularly. If you are eating hydromorphone or oxymorphone, dont bother, as it is a total waste. Ketones of morphine (such as oxymorphone and hydromorphone) have horrible bio-availability in your stomach. They are a hundred times better IV'ed.

Personally I think oxycodone is way better than morphine, I love slamming 160mg of oxy right to the dome. However I still prefer heroin over any other opiate. But there is a big difference between the high from oxycodone and heroin. If you experiment more with different opiates, you will start to understand and appreciate the differences.


OK I'm from the UK where Oxy is pretty rare. I've just bought 2 oxycontin 80mg tablets for £10 (£5 each) which is about $9 per pill. I assumed that i was getting ripped off but was keen to try them for many reasons - one being that everyone talks about themall the time here. Judging from what everyone says it seems that Oxy is about 1/2 to 1/3 the strength of heroin.... is that right? Also what does it mean? \i gather that the oral bioavaiability is high - like 85% so........

If my habit has come down to less than a gram of street H, smoked, say 600mg per day. and here is the tricky bit - if i estimate that the quality has gone down recently so maybe it's only 10-20% then i'm smoking about 100mg of H a day. then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

1. Should i try crunching one in my mouth?

2. If they are more uppy (speedy) than smack then shold i try takng one -slow release - before work? I almost always smoke white with my brown..

3. If I'm going away and need to take something to keep me going - but also want to reduce before i go and maybe get clean on my trip (i've done this before with a combination of methadone, tramadol, valium and feeling crap)

4. Would you say an 80mg pill would hold me for a day? If not how much would i have t cut down my h habit for the Oxy to hold me?

5. Would it be better to take methodone to add to the oxy (or in fact the other way round) or would you tink it best to take tramadol with the oxy as it has a short half life?

Many thanks for advice

p.s. what is half life of oxy?

MBK

Mallinckrodt
08-30-2008, 09:58 PM
OK I'm from the UK where Oxy is pretty rare. I've just bought 2 oxycontin 80mg tablets for £10 (£5 each) which is about $9 per pill. I assumed that i was getting ripped off but was keen to try them for many reasons - one being that everyone talks about themall the time here. Judging from what everyone says it seems that Oxy is about 1/2 to 1/3 the strength of heroin.... is that right? Also what does it mean? \i gather that the oral bioavaiability is high - like 85% so........

If my habit has come down to less than a gram of street H, smoked, say 600mg per day. and here is the tricky bit - if i estimate that the quality has gone down recently so maybe it's only 10-20% then i'm smoking about 100mg of H a day. then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

1. Should i try crunching one in my mouth?

2. If they are more uppy (speedy) than smack then shold i try takng one -slow release - before work? I almost always smoke white with my brown..

3. If I'm going away and need to take something to keep me going - but also want to reduce before i go and maybe get clean on my trip (i've done this before with a combination of methadone, tramadol, valium and feeling crap)

4. Would you say an 80mg pill would hold me for a day? If not how much would i have t cut down my h habit for the Oxy to hold me?

5. Would it be better to take methodone to add to the oxy (or in fact the other way round) or would you tink it best to take tramadol with the oxy as it has a short half life?

Many thanks for advice

p.s. what is half life of oxy?

MBK


That is a great deal if they are indeed name brand Oxycontin. That's unheard of here in the US. Those fuckers go for $80 some places and usually no cheaper than $30-$40.

I would eat 'em, like you said better bioavailability. Crunch one or just eat it whole and see how you like it.

milkybarkid
09-01-2008, 02:38 PM
they are real -

in the UK pills are sold cheap on the black market because we have the national health so people sell their scripts (which they get free) and buy illegal drugs. My guess is someone stole them from an american tourist. The guy who sold them to me said i was the only [perspn who'd ever heard of them.

Anyway i took one 80 last night and it sort of held me until this evening - although i'd been on the h last night too....


... useful for detox i#d say

MBK

clinton
03-01-2009, 12:53 AM
ive got nothing to add in regards to the topic

i just wanted to say this is one of my favorite threads,following it from beginning to end is almost like an opiophile timeline..
give it a read....

digby
03-17-2009, 02:54 PM
The thing I found most interesting about this thread was the seeming contradictions in describing both opiate strengths as well as highs. I am now convinced they are not genuine contradictions but simply expressions of a variable truth.

I can take the same opiate at the same dose a dozen times over the course of a week. And each experience is going to be slightly different. Sometimes the difference is not slight but enormous. And this is from the same drug taken in the same dose by the same person. Imagine what the variables are among different users.

Opiate strength as defined by scientific and medical terms seems to me to be only one of many equally important measuring criteria and I think most people overlook the importance of most of them.
Peoples first experience with opiates is generally going to be some of the most euphoric and often provide the best pain control while many of the stronger opiates would have just made them sick. So lowly codeine or hydrocodone could represent the most euphoric an individual has ever been, even though he has progressed to stronger and stronger opiates.

I have found for me that tolerance plays such a strong role not only in amount of substance required to produce a high but the quality of the high and the pain control as well. Everyone with a tolerance knows what I am talking about. Often, no amount of the same drug will be able to duplicate the early experiences of euphoria no matter how much is taken, and so you have the "chasing the dragon" experience that so many have referred to.
Sometimes the bodies own naturally made chemicals combining with opiates will produce the most euphoria ever. I have been in situations where I was just naturally high and feeling good, and if I supplemented that high with additional opiates, it would be very difficult to recreate by opiates alone - any opiates.

For pain patients, you can include pain control along with or instead of euphoria or opiate high in the above discussion because often the two are strongly linked. If someone doesn't experience much euphoria from opiates, they will experience different levels of pain control based on the same criteria listed above for different levels of euphoria but for most of us, it's various combinations of both.

I hope I didn't sound stuffy, because I know I am not pointing out anything most of you didn't already know. But I think it is something we often forget about when talking about opiate strength and weakness.
The opiate experience is a vastly subjective one, chameleon-like at its essence. Trying to describe its strength in hard terms is akin to describing the strength of the wind.

HydroApe
03-17-2009, 05:41 PM
Digby,
That was actually an excellent post!
No truer words have been spoken. It is indeed amazing how subjective everyone's opiate experience can be at any given time, in any given situation, with any given substance.
Nothing stuffy about that at all.