Bupe questions for those in the know....?

[bluesail1]

Is anybody's bupe experience the same as anyone else? Everyone seems to individualize the subjective effects of this drug more than any otherI've encountered (at least by description). I know that I feel dopefine up to 4 milligrams. There may be some dampening at 3 or more, bu tit doesn't really cause antagonist effects while on a long dope jag,nor does it interfere. I've been taking it for about one year now. Intake subjoin, now. I was prescribed 4 Mg's a day by the shrink. But,then I had insurance, and the $175 a month for the shrink, and $191 fora one month supply, were paid for by in large. Now, I'm unemployed, out of benefits and I have about 25 2 mg suboxone stars left. I'vebeen taking 1/2 or 1 mg a day and when I'm not using 1/4 or 1/2 milligram seems to hold me fine. But the jig is up soon enough folks, Idon't know if I'll be able to get more. I'm worried. The funny thing is, unlike meth, I could swear I feel so normal at 1/2 a mg, that Ican't believe I'll get that sick if I stop. Sometimes I 've skipped adose for a day and yes, I told myself that I was a wee bituncomfortable, jittery, 'cold in the head' like, maybe W/D, but maybesomatic reflex too.

When I was on Meth, if I was down to 3 or 4 milligrams, I knew I wasn'treally addicted much to anything beyond an idea. But is that the casehere? Am I already over it? I detoxed from a twenty-year stretch of about 40 mgs give or take one year ago. Started on H again for amonth or two. Got the suboxone and have been using it like I did meth--to help me not get sick, regardless of whether I was active or not.I've just come to believe I need opiates to function. Is that still afact biologically or is it all just wheels in my head?

Have any of you stopped the bupe through a taper? To what dose did youjump off and did you stay clean? If not, was it because of W/Ds or justinclination. (I figure the way you'd know is if you didn't have to usetwice with 48 hours). I swear to God, I feel like I'm not on nothing.Did anyone adjust the time intervals of their taper regimen? How do you rate the W/Ds you did feel in terms of intensity, comparison withother opiates, length of duration, etc.

I'm sorry if this seems to overlap the survey too much. But, I needindividual feedback, if anybody has any for me. It's a bad time for meto return to having to use every day or get back on the program, whichreally scares me (mainly because I like meth a lot. But it's toodegrading and hellacious a kick).

Thanks

Rich

[Peripat]

Hi bluesail1, welcome to the Opiophorum.

I'm not sure if you've read this link, but it's well worth checking out: http://www.nephalim.org/Bupe-FAQ-201-WIP.htm - Written by a longtime user of buprenorphine, it may answer some of your questions.

There are also many people on this forum who've had extensive experience with the bupe, so I'll let them try to answer your queries too. Bear in mind though, that we are all different and therefore, Your Mileage May Vary.

Good luck with the taper, by the way... :)

[bluesail1]

Thanks Peripat (You like to walk?), I just can't get a readable base line on this shit. I will check the link. When people talk about .2 mg dosages, I give up hope. I could crush the remaining 2mg suboxones and try and measure down 1/10th of a milligram. Seems hard to do.

Oh and sorry about the run on words in my post. I used the spell checker feature and must have had my head up my asss to not see all that. I must have clicked where I should have clacked....

[bluesail1]

Shit, the FAQ you gave me indicated that tapering may be the wrong way to go with bupe, due the partial agonist properties of bupe. I mean I've heard the expression "less is more", but this defies all my prosaic understanding of how quantity affects quality. It's not rational, is it? Has anyone tried both approaches...stepping off at 2 or 4 as opposed to winnowing down to an almost non-existent amount?

[Peripat]

Bear in mind that this is what has worked for this user (the author of the FAQ), and to qualify that, he is on long-term maintenance. I've tapered a couple of baby habits with the aid of bupe, but as I did it without medical supervision and was really pissing into the wind anyway, I'd prefer not to share my experiences (limited as they are.)

And yeah bluesail1, I like to walk. :) I've hiked part of the Pacific Crest Trail (although obviously not in those boots, lol...) BTW I love your avatar too (chasing your own tail, perhaps?) even though I've never been one for dogs.

[bluesail1]

Thanks, I love dogs. Been going to them for years.... This guy in that avatar is my spiritual twin, except he seems to be in a much better mood...the mood I want to be in so much that I'm a member of this forum. But, I still don't understand how tapering any bupernorphine preparation is biochemically the wrong way to go. I understand that the agonist nature increaseses as the dosage dwindles from 16 mgs down. But still, how can receptors respond to doses that are so small there's no antagonist effect at all?

[b240c]

at a dose like that if you stepped off now you wouldnt feel much pain other than having a hell of a time sleeping. also if you want to taper more and stratch your shit out try skipping a day. i have since i started (4 months ago) and i dont get sick on the off days.

[kramorph]

Was on bupe for about 2 1/2yrs, started on 8mg daily, ended up to 32mg/day, and eventually jumped off at 11mg/day.Felt nothing for about 2 weeks, then the w/ds started. werent to bad ininitially but got worse and worse week by week.Main prob was not sleeping despite taking 50+mg diazepam and60mg temazepam.W/d not as bad as methadone, but seemed to never end so i reluctantly went back on needle.I even tried naltrexone to speed up w/ds but it just made it worse for a day or 2 then back to the underlying bupe w/d.I am now on methadone and have given up trying to give up.Suboxone sounds promising though, have you tried that?

[rebo]

As i'm sure many of you have experianced at some time of your er" carreer " ,is a forced stay at a rehab of varying descriptions.
At this one rehab we were given bupe ,as much as we wanted ,but only in 2 mg tabs ,the caretakers/nurses actually told us to take more ,I thought great ,only too realize why later on (at the time I only knew it as temgesic and was told it was a syn. painkiller)
It was new years eve 2000 and here I was stuck in rehab ,this sort of pissed me off ,so I procured $50 and "went for a walk" ,at this stage I was also supposed to be taking naltrexone ,but had managed to get away with not taking it for a week.
Anyways , I finally managed to get on about 2 hours later ,when I hit up I didn't feel a thing ,now having been on naltrexone before ,I knew it couldn't be the naltrexone ,I hadn't had any!!!!
It was the bupe ,damn antagonist. So less is better if you want your gear to be fully effective.
Funny thing about it though was I got busted and got sent to lockup for a while,
Haven't used bupe scince ,I wonder why???

[kramorph]

I found the same thing with bupe, it doesnt fully block other opiates like naltrexone , but I found it was usless unless ya wait at least three days before having a hit.I used to have my w/end t/away all at once on fridays, then buy a shot on sun.But thert was always some blockage from the bupe.That is the idea, an agonist that satisfies the opiate receptors, yet also a partial antagonist to discourage using H or whatever as well.Not like meth, which i have found just makes my H bill cheaper.But have ya H first, b4 ya methadone.

[bluesail1]

This all just confirms my original suspicion that with suboxone or any bupe formulary, we all are unique in our neuro metabolism. Everybody's story is different. You can't get a base line. Let's not forget the unbelieveable placebo effect. I was once on a clinic in the 80s whee they did ambulatory detox with methadone (from dope to 40mgs to 0 in 28 days). NYC doesn't have that anymore, but anyway the directing psychiatrist showed me double blind studies where 50/50 got blank biscuits or decreasing actual meth doses. There were 120 in each category. Guess how many people in the placebo group complained about having withdrawls? 32. Now, this was an ambulatory group, so I imagine there were people in both groups still getting high. But he told me urines were roughly consistant. I just know I'd be one of those 32 :)

And btw, Kramorph, when I was on Methadone, it was just the opposite. I felt "gea,r" as you Aussies say, much better after my dose. Before my dose was a mild deficit of opiates, so any dope I did went straight to my maintenance need. It was that surfeit, over and above the requirement that got me nice. Of course, we're not talking about blocking levels. I needed about 80 mgs to get a blockage effect. Early on it was lower, and then I did use first and drink later, but that changed up fast. Again, it's hard to draw universal conclusions from other's experiences, it seems. There should be some commonality to all this, I can't find it..