Hmongous success

[stvip]

Hmong folk remedies: limited acetylation of opium by aspirin and acetaminophen.

Note that yields are decent, and I believe they can be improved.

There is an interesting historical conclusion to be drawn (with a high degree of probability) from this, though it isn't mentioned in the article: traditional users of opium were actually smoking heroin (as an unknown percentage of their opium).

[jacky]

pretty damn interesting!!
damn.
I cant stand acetominophen....BUT,
aspirin and me are freinds.

so, I wonder what amount of aspirin it would take, if at all, to to a conversion on some pod tea?

sounds like a question for oxycontinously!!

[stvip]

Glad you find this interesting, Jacky. You should see the incredible amount of hostility and ignorance the announcement I was going to post this engendered on another thread. If you're curious about my comment about traditional opium smokers actually (very probably) unknowingly using some heroin, search for articles describing opium smoking, and you'll notice Aspirin was often added to the opium, for unknown reasons (some researchers speculated it was due to headaches caused by the smoke, or simply ignorant folk adding whatever Western medicine they can find, but this study suggests otherwise).
As for APAP. it probably isn't required (see comment in study). Anyway, a cold-water extract would get rid of it (such a procedure is recommended anyhow prior to smoking, as the tablets will add plenty filler and the unwanted agents themselves).

[alowishus]

Yes and believe it or not I understood it all. Even knew HP-UX. Anyhoo, great but how does that help me....?

I know your trying to prove your point, you feel wronged, you want to have to dual.

But this info can't do crap for most if not all of us here, whoe's got a brick of opi?

And if they did, fer fuck sure wouldn't dare of doing anything w/ it other then getting it in you as fast as you could.:D

[OxyContinuously]

Once again, *yawn*


Oxy

[jacky]

well, at least one person who is an organic chemist doesnt think this info is correct.

maybe opium was acetylated with A.A. after aspirin and acetamin. were added to attempt to make this a broader acting analgesic?

I think more info is needed on the test that the researchers performed, regarding yeilds/ratios......

it would be too good to be true if you could boil some aspirin and pod tea together and double the potency.
but who am I to say?
I am not a chemist in any fashion, chemistry obsessed, but that is all.

dont see much harm in someone trying to see if aspirin works, but I would be carefull with acetaminophen, who knows what beast you might create boiling that shit down with your pods. I cannot tolerate the stuff, even less than alchohol. my liver starts swelling, getting tight, etc. and I know that feeling from having a swollen liver when I had hep B.

this report is interesting, even if the authors/researchers are misinterpreting the subject.

can you see the dea shitting their pants if aspirin could be used in this manner?

[OxyContinuously]

well, at least one person who is an organic chemist doesnt think this info is correct.

maybe opium was acetylated with A.A. after aspirin and acetamin. were added to attempt to make this a broader acting analgesic?

I think more info is needed on the test that the researchers performed, regarding yeilds/ratios......

it would be too good to be true if you could boil some aspirin and pod tea together and double the potency.
but who am I to say?
I am not a chemist in any fashion, chemistry obsessed, but that is all.

dont see much harm in someone trying to see if aspirin works, but I would be carefull with acetaminophen, who knows what beast you might create boiling that shit down with your pods. I cannot tolerate the stuff, even less than alchohol. my liver starts swelling, getting tight, etc. and I know that feeling from having a swollen liver when I had hep B.

this report is interesting, even if the authors/researchers are misinterpreting the subject.

can you see the dea shitting their pants if aspirin could be used in this manner?

hey jacky i got your PM and sent you one in reply, but i tend to agree w you that acetic anhyd. was *probably* used to start then the acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) came along later on. it *is* interesting, but i highly doubt it's economical/feasible. I can see where the idea came from though, as far as a conceptual point of view...

OXy

[stvip]

What is wrong with you? They're not idly speculating about the sample obtained, they actually replicated the results (on 250mgs samples of opium, not bricks), described their method and results obtained. OC's speculation that they surreptitiously added AA and lied about it in a published peer-reviewed paper makes him sound like a conspiracy nut, desperate to save face after his egregious behaviour on another thread.

[nick]

children,children please.If you're not good boys it's off to bed with no supper or MEDS or it's arm wrestling time.

[alowishus]

children,children please.If you're not good boys it's off to bed with no supper or MEDS or it's arm wrestling time.

Pud pulling time is more like it, fuck. Go smoke a joint, have some kava.....try gojo that stuff they do in hollywood in stuff.

[OxyContinuously]

What is wrong with you? They're not idly speculating about the sample obtained, they actually replicated the results (on 250mgs samples of opium, not bricks), described their method and results obtained. OC's speculation that they surreptitiously added AA and lied about it in a published peer-reviewed paper makes him sound like a conspiracy nut, desperate to save face after his egregious behaviour on another thread.

relax, dude. relax. it's an opinion and I wasn't talking to you either. Leave the other thread in the other thread.


oxy

[jacky]

I think he was referring to the original samples.

what I want to see, excuse my ignorance if the info IS in the report, is the yeilds/ratios of the experiment to try and validate the hypoth.
if there is SOME acetylization , a very very small amount, then this report is interesting, but not really applicable to the standard dope feind.
if there is a reaction that leads to even 5% conversion I would think that is more interesting.

maybe a few of the compounds mentioned in this report might suggest/prove A.A was used, if anyone beryond a few people actually knew what they were talking about here.

but this type of conjecture is beyond me.

I would be more interested in the 6 mam compound than in heroin, but that is just personal choice. I like morphine for what it is, and really I like the longer lasting effect of morphine than the shorter acting more potent compounds like heroin. last time I tried smack actually I just slept it off, it made me sick again, and dysphoric.

what I would like to see is for this thread to not erupt in slander and bad vibes.
what I would like to see is some more research into this subject, but I sorta doubt that anything will come of this, unless we get a really cool chemist that might risk his ass to provide a bunch of freaks with information that might be somewhat dangerous.

but at any rate stvip, it is an interesting report, and just another complicated mess that will annoy me for years to come no doubt.

are these researchers Hmwrong? or are they Hmright?

[vicious86]

Good thread. Keep fighting it out. You both have interesting points

[alowishus]

I think he was referring to the original samples.

what I want to see, excuse my ignorance if the info IS in the report, is the yeilds/ratios of the experiment to try and validate the hypoth.
if there is SOME acetylization , a very very small amount, then this report is interesting, but not really applicable to the standard dope feind.
if there is a reaction that leads to even 5% conversion I would think that is more interesting.

maybe a few of the compounds mentioned in this report might suggest/prove A.A was used, if anyone beryond a few people actually knew what they were talking about here.

but this type of conjecture is beyond me.

I would be more interested in the 6 mam compound than in heroin, but that is just personal choice. I like morphine for what it is, and really I like the longer lasting effect of morphine than the shorter acting more potent compounds like heroin. last time I tried smack actually I just slept it off, it made me sick again, and dysphoric.

what I would like to see is for this thread to not erupt in slander and bad vibes.
what I would like to see is some more research into this subject, but I sorta doubt that anything will come of this, unless we get a really cool chemist that might risk his ass to provide a bunch of freaks with information that might be somewhat dangerous.

but at any rate stvip, it is an interesting report, and just another complicated mess that will annoy me for years to come no doubt.

are these researchers Hmwrong? or are they Hmright?


Hell bro if all you want is pod tea and some pills done together, I'll do it and you can have it.


I left chem back in class room 110. But it don't mean us good ole boys can't not read.

It sounds good stvip, it does, but....

P.S. Hmright. rotf. :D

[stvip]

The whole speculation is spurious - it doesn't matter whether the original samples were really made this way, what matters is that this method is proven to work. The yields they attained were 62% diamorphine + 5% 6-MAM. Different conditions yielded 67% 6-MAM + 4% diamorphine. Again, I believe higher yields can be obtained.
As for my supposed lack of credentials, I am an academic in an allied field. I will begin work in a research laboratory soon. I have lab experience (not in research chemistry, but that isn't needed), and can read, understand and even author research papers. I am not at all impressed with OC's ramblings; aside from the rude attitude, he shows a great misunderstanding of the topic, and I find it suspicious that he had to wait until I posted the paper here to read it.

As for the basic feasibility of the chemistry involved, here's another paper (abstract only):

Solid-state acetylation of codeine phosphate by aspirin.

A nonsolvolytic (solid-state) acetylation of codeine phosphate in the presence of aspirin to yield acetylcodeine phosphate is reported. GLC assays for the simultaneous determination of aspirin and salicylic acid and codeine and acetylcodeine are described. The apparent heat of activation for codeine phosphate is estimated, and the possible reaction mechanisms are discussed.

[alowishus]

Well I can attest to one of your academic credentials, you can build a PDF.:p

[OxyContinuously]

You know, stvip? I am trying to let bygones be bygones, but you don't seem content with that. Difference between me and you: I state the facts and don't have a "study" for everything under the sun. You are obviously very annoyed with me; I can tell by the way you constantly goad me in everything you post. Hey, man. You're entitled to your opinions: you think I ramble, so what? You think I am misinformed? So what? You think I'm not a chemist? So what? It doesn't matter what you think. Good luck on opening up your hot dog cart...errr I mean "research laboratory." LOL

PS---> Hebrew National or Sabretts? I like Sabretts, personally. Sell the Jamaican beef patties, too. Those are good!!

Oxy

[stvip]

Difference between me and you: I state the facts

There isn't a single fact you have stated, only generalized insults and accusations. In particular, I challenged you very specifically to say anything concrete to prove your point, and you only replied with more general insults.

PS---> Hebrew National or Sabretts? I like Sabretts, personally. Sell the Jamaican beef patties too.

I have no idea what you think those terms mean - "Hebrew National" is meaningless, and Sabres (though the Hebrew term is 'tzabar' - Israeli-born Israelis) don't have any particular link with Jamaican beef patties. I'll tell you one thing - we Sabres value honour. Not so much obsession with perceived slants to our honor, but rather demand that others act honourably generally. Your failure to publicly recant your statements and apologize tell me you are not a man. Now, I wouldn't fly to NY just to get into a fist-fight with you, and I somehow doubt you'd tell me the address, but knowing yourself (whether you'd acknowledge consciously or not) that you are a dishonourable person, someone who is not yet a man, has got to be worse than anything I could do to you. So indeed, let us part ways. My intention in starting a new thread was to keep this one clean.

[alowishus]

Welt that's it for me, you guys got to it, that line I mean, the one you shouldn't cross; but hey you wouldn't be here if you had self control right.

Goodbye.:rolleyes:

[OxyContinuously]

There isn't a single fact you have stated, only generalized insults and accusations. In particular, I challenged you very specifically to say anything concrete to prove your point, and you only replied with more general insults.



I have no idea what you think those terms mean - "Hebrew National" is meaningless, and Sabres (though the Hebrew term is 'tzabar' - Israeli-born Israelis) don't have any particular link with Jamaican beef patties. I'll tell you one thing - we Sabres value honour. Not so much obsession with perceived slants to our honor, but rather demand that others act honourably generally. Your failure to publicly recant your statements and apologize tell me you are not a man. Now, I wouldn't fly to NY just to get into a fist-fight with you, and I somehow doubt you'd tell me the address, but knowing yourself (whether you'd acknowledge consciously or not) that you are a dishonourable person, someone who is not yet a man, has got to be worse than anything I could do to you. So indeed, let us part ways. My intention in starting a new thread was to keep this one clean.


No, no, no, you misunderstood completely. All jokes aside and all disagreements aside, I was in no way making fun of your heritage. No way in hell---I don't go there.

Actually, in the United States, "HebrewNational" is a very famous brand of hot dog. And "Sabretts" is also a very famous hot dog. "Sabretts" is what the vendors sell in New York City. Like you have probably heard of Nathan's famous franks in Coney Island? Well, these two are hot dog brands---that's all. You definitely took that the wrong way, so before you get all high and mighty telling me I'm not a man, and whatever the case may be, lecturing me about the Sabres (of whom I know nothing about by the way)--try to understand what I am saying-----> "Hebrew National" and "Sabretts" are two brands of hot dogs/frankfurters. that's all.

[vicious86]

No, no, no, you misunderstood completely. All jokes aside and all disagreements aside, I was in no way making fun of your heritage. No way in hell---I don't go there.

Actually, in the United States, "HebrewNational" is a very famous brand of hot dog. And "Sabretts" is also a very famous hot dog. "Sabretts" is what the vendors sell in New York City. Like you have probably heard of Nathan's famous franks in Coney Island? Well, these two are hot dog brands---that's all. You definitely took that the wrong way, so before you get all high and mighty telling me I'm not a man, and whatever the case may be, lecturing me about the Sabres (of whom I know nothing about by the way)--try to understand what I am saying-----> "Hebrew National" and "Sabretts" are two brands of hot dogs/frankfurters. that's all.



Wooh dude . How does someone not know what a hebrew national or a sabrett is. Although i see Tvips from israel. So thats actually really fuckin funny. Sort of like a threes company episode. I thought evertyone knows what a dirty water dog is.

[ProdigalSon]

There isn't a single fact you have stated, only generalized insults and accusations. In particular, I challenged you very specifically to say anything concrete to prove your point, and you only replied with more general insults.



I have no idea what you think those terms mean - "Hebrew National" is meaningless, and Sabres (though the Hebrew term is 'tzabar' - Israeli-born Israelis) don't have any particular link with Jamaican beef patties. I'll tell you one thing - we Sabres value honour. Not so much obsession with perceived slants to our honor, but rather demand that others act honourably generally. Your failure to publicly recant your statements and apologize tell me you are not a man. Now, I wouldn't fly to NY just to get into a fist-fight with you, and I somehow doubt you'd tell me the address, but knowing yourself (whether you'd acknowledge consciously or not) that you are a dishonourable person, someone who is not yet a man, has got to be worse than anything I could do to you. So indeed, let us part ways. My intention in starting a new thread was to keep this one clean.


Goddamn dude drop it.

[alowishus]

Goddamn dude drop it.

"What I Buy Is Made
With Tools,
Not Chopsticks!
Keep It AMERICAN!"

Dude you too, get out of the 80's. Let me guess you work fer a car company.

[vicious86]

"What I Buy Is Made
With Tools,
Not Chopsticks!
Keep It AMERICAN!"

Dude you too, get out of the 80's. Let me guess you work fer a car company.



With this quote and coming from detroit your prob right.

[HistoryofMadness]

gaddammit are you telling me a group of grown men and women can't get along when discussing chemistry?

i mean, i like a good debate like everyone else, but this protracted flaming (even the 'i'm not flaming' flaming) is just getting old.

please please please please just leave it alone. NOW. just drop it.

please?

don't make me go mod-gothic! (hey that's at least 5 years out of the 80's!)

-EDIT- i should've said 'mod-eval' waka waka waka!

[tptptp]

"What I Buy Is Made

With Tools,
Not Chopsticks!
Keep It AMERICAN!"

Dude you too, get out of the 80's. Let me guess you work fer a car company.


Whats wrong with buying American???
Don't get me wrong I go for the best deal when it comes to quality but when something runs close I opt to the side of american...

And this whole discussion has gotten out of hand, just agree to disagree or discuss the topic at hand....jesus

[alowishus]

And this whole discussion has gotten out of hand, just agree to disagree or discuss the topic at hand....jesus

Absolutely.

We can start w/ this one....

Whats wrong with buying American???



:D :D

[tptptp]

Absolutely.

We can start w/ this one....





:D :D

You're right ignorance is a good place to start and apparently for you, to continue.

[sebastian869]

Hmong folk remedies: limited acetylation of opium by aspirin and acetaminophen.

Note that yields are decent, and I believe they can be improved.

There is an interesting historical conclusion to be drawn (with a high degree of probability) from this, though it isn't mentioned in the article: traditional users of opium were actually smoking heroin (as an unknown percentage of their opium).




This is the paper you we talking about posting from acetylation of morphine? Some of the directions are missing in the scan.

[insanesteveo]

i just read that study.


so they put some opium, asprin, and apap into a test tube and heated to varying degrees in an oil bath.(first off, very easy to replicate an oil bath). so what were the amounts of the solids of the opium, asprin, and apap? thatd be a nice thing to have. also how long they heated would be nice to know. i thought i read they did them at varying time up to 6 hours? maybe its in the parts that are cut off.

[stvip]

(first off, very easy to replicate an oil bath)

I'm not sure whether that meant to be sarcastic, but it is indeed very easy to replicate an oil/sand bath (though I doubt the Hmong people used one anyway).

so what were the amounts of the solids of the opium, asprin, and apap?

It's in the paper.

I noticed some lines were cut when the article was being photocopied, but there's nothing of importance in there, so I haven't bothered correcting that.


Robojunkie: once the issue of to which method exactly I was refering had been cleared, you indicated interest in the paper. Do you have any comments now that it's posted?

[alowishus]

I'm not sure whether that meant to be sarcastic, but it is indeed very easy to replicate an oil/sand bath (though I doubt the Hmong people used one anyway).

Oil bath - easy to do - that's it, not hard to try, etc.


OK?

[insanesteveo]

I'm not sure whether that meant to be sarcastic, but it is indeed very easy to replicate an oil/sand bath (though I doubt the Hmong people used one anyway).

It's in the paper.

I noticed some lines were cut when the article was being photocopied, but there's nothing of importance in there, so I haven't bothered correcting that.


i wasnt being sarcastic. im being very serious about this.

so i looked at it again. all it states is they used .25 g of opium per test. so 250 mg. then its states they used varying amounts of asprin and apap. sometimes just one, sometiems both. it states they used 325 mg tabs of asprin and apap but does not say how many tabs they used, whether parts of the tabs of 2 or 15. you dont know where to start.
i guess experimentation could be used to find the perfect amounts, but i dont have the access to lab euipment.

[jacky]

this thread reminds me off a thread over at edot, where the possibility of growing amanita mycelium in grape juice is being researched/debated.
finally a proffesional mycologist jumped in and took the challenge of recreating the experiment, and then creating his own research angles, and reporting back on all of them.

what we need here is for some swimming motherfu##$$$ to recreate this with some HPLC data to back it up. then I will get excited.
there is some relevant looking data here, on both accounts, and I will be happy to watch this subject flounder or fly, which ever.

I also would like to see even far flung hypothesis given a chance here. understand we dont want to encourage bathtub chemistry, or any destruction of body parts, but I also dont think we should discourage research or possibilitys.
lets say, what if, what if, this aspirin thing could have a use with some other compounds that arent illegal, or maybe another papaver species?
stupid question probably, but man, that would be cool.

[insanesteveo]

this thread reminds me off a thread over at edot, where the possibility of growing amanita mycelium in grape juice is being researched/debated.
finally a proffesional mycologist jumped in and took the challenge of recreating the experiment, and then creating his own research angles, and reporting back on all of them.

what we need here is for some swimming motherfu##$$$ to recreate this with some HPLC data to back it up. then I will get excited.
there is some relevant looking data here, on both accounts, and I will be happy to watch this subject flounder or fly, which ever.

I also would like to see even far flung hypothesis given a chance here. understand we dont want to encourage bathtub chemistry, or any destruction of body parts, but I also dont think we should discourage research or possibilitys.
lets say, what if, what if, this aspirin thing could have a use with some other compounds that arent illegal, or maybe another papaver species?
stupid question probably, but man, that would be cool.

go jacky!

like you say, maybe this COULD work with another species of papver. maybe acytelated alkaloids in those species may yield powerful substances? who knows. we really need a good chemist to try these. out. but thats a risk and who really wants to take a risk for research?

[stvip]

i wasnt being sarcastic. im being very serious about this.

I apologize if my response might have seemed harsh, I guess I've become uncharacteristically touchy about this subject.

it states they used 325 mg tabs of asprin and apap but does not say how many tabs they used, whether parts of the tabs of 2 or 15

No, the ratios of reactants are specified. Look at the end of the article, table 1. Basically higher amounts of ASA led to more complete acetylization (they tried up to 4 ASA/opium), and at 170c the 3-O position tends to be de-acetylized (this might actually be beneficial). You'll have to clarify what you mean by "whether parts of the tabs of 2 or 15"

what we need here is for some swimming motherfu##$$$ to recreate this with some HPLC data to back it up.

Why? That is precisely what the researchers did (with GC/MS), why doubt them? For those curious about the theoretical aspects of the reaction there's the second paper - it details the exact same type of reaction, only in codeine. Actually, perhaps I should get that article too, as it further discusses optimal reaction conditions.

Anyhow, there are simple methods for determining whether diamorphine or 6-MAM were produced, especially if one settles for a qualitative, rather than quantitative answer.

[insanesteveo]

I apologize if my response might have seemed harsh, I guess I've become uncharacteristically touchy about this subject.

You'll have to clarify what you mean by "whether parts of the tabs of 2 or 15"


no problem man, i understand you have been a little touchy about this, but hey, if you believe something, stand for it.


and i just meant that i was confused whether they used 1 tab, or part of a tab, or a couple tabs, or what. i thought i saw that table but didnt realize it gave exact amounts of each ingredient.

edit- looked at that table again. i was trying to read it sideways last time, very difficult. i rotated the view, much better. so i am assuming that when they say 4asa they mean 4 of the 325 tabs. so that clears it up. thanks.

[robojunkie]

Robojunkie: once the issue of to which method exactly I was refering had been cleared, you indicated interest in the paper. Do you have any comments now that it's posted?

As I have mentioned before in some unrelated post where someone was asking something along the lines of H + M = whatever, maybe they wanted 6-MAM, I don't remember and I'm too tired ustfse. But point being I made the comment, that essentially good luck man! However in reality in a real lab with real anhydrous solvents, N2 lines, etc. One could establish an equillibrium between the diacetylated M and M. As I also said, I think, but not in a spoon! Transesterifications (which is what the ASA/M thing is, essentially) are well known reactions. I can buy the possibility of this with a significant excess of the ASA as theoretically speaking, assuming you reach the activation energy the equilibrium you'll get will be determined essentially by the pKa of the leaving group. Since ASA (phenolate anion) is 1) stabilized via o-withdrawing group and 2) Is its own source for acid catalysis, and M is (in the 3 position stabilized via resonance but there's that ether/epoxide next to it and allylic OH at 6) generally just on looking at it a poorer leaving group.

Main point: Yes, I buy that this is possible, even without the paper. In contrast to this the above explaination also lays waste to the idea of using acetic acid as such (-OH, worst leaving group ever, well not ever, but you get the point). I would love to see reliable results put out using pure materials, not just the acetyl sources, ie pure M. However you have to be patient/understanding with us chem guys as we hear so many repeated suggestions over and over again, and not to mention the fact that I have used literature procedures numerous times that had to be either significantly adapted, only reported best yield even though rxn was done 20 times, or even had to be scrapped all together. That's why sometimes we doubt "lone" papers/papers with very novel but unreproduced results. But I think it would be possible under the appropriate conditions.

[jacky]

stvip, I only would like to see more data so that this reaction , which could be a pretty significant cool endeavor for someone, might get some more interest and stem some different types of reports.

like for instance.
if pods might be used for such a reaction, would you want to boil the pod juice down till is is a thick substance, or would a water prominant mixture be as good.?

the more research that is done on this might lead to a paper being written that is more of an underground type of publication, that might catch alot more peoples attention that might benefit from such a "thing".

I would love for something like this to be a pain in certian peoples/organizations asses.

so it is not really that I am doubting this paper as much as I wouldnt mind some more info in laymans terms. I am not chemistry proficient in the area of structural analysis or synth. theory or any of that. so the more info I have that is being described by someone cool enough to "break it down" would be welcome.

for instance....I keep reading different versions of dmt extraction techs and salvinorin a isolation techs cause different suggestions pop up from time to time.

I would never think of trying such a reaction myself. I am not fond of heroin anymore really, cant stomach the stuff, it causes me a really dysphoric, troublesome high. when I did heroin I puked almost everyday I did it, that is a few years at least of constant puking. I am lucky I still have my teeth. morphine and other drugs just dont have that effect on me.

I like the angle though, subversive it is, and you cant have a better compound that aspirin to thank. what a wonderful drug aspirin is.

but...now what.?

[sebastian869]

Hmong folk remedies: limited acetylation of opium by aspirin and acetaminophen.

Note that yields are decent, and I believe they can be improved.

There is an interesting historical conclusion to be drawn (with a high degree of probability) from this, though it isn't mentioned in the article: traditional users of opium were actually smoking heroin (as an unknown percentage of their opium).




Maybe I'm blind but no where do I see direction for acetylation of morphine to heroin. I just see them describing the process they used for GS/mass spectrometry. Would it really be too much to ask for someone to just write the procedure and please include the proportions and values.

[sebastian869]

Glad you find this interesting, Jacky. You should see the incredible amount of hostility and ignorance the announcement I was going to post this engendered on another thread. If you're curious about my comment about traditional opium smokers actually (very probably) unknowingly using some heroin, search for articles describing opium smoking, and you'll notice Aspirin was often added to the opium, for unknown reasons (some researchers speculated it was due to headaches caused by the smoke, or simply ignorant folk adding whatever Western medicine they can find, but this study suggests otherwise).
As for APAP. it probably isn't required (see comment in study). Anyway, a cold-water extract would get rid of it (such a procedure is recommended anyhow prior to smoking, as the tablets will add plenty filler and the unwanted agents themselves).

Jacky is not the only one who appreciates the time you took to post this, nor is he the only know who finds all of this amazing. The only problem is that I and others on this page are not all chemists and it really would help out if you and others could put it all in more layman terms. It would be nice for these chemists out there to actually explain some of these process not ridicule others for being interested, ask me about aviation or stocks and I'd be glad to answer any questions. I will not simply answer "Dont fly, or you're a dick becouse you'll kill you're self" or "Dont buy stocks because you'll loose you're nest egg" (And I mean fly as in aviation not drugs). Both quotes are correct and you're doing some sort of a service buy offering such advice but it does not mean others will not try, hence if you really want to help then tell them how to do it correctly.

[sebastian869]

As I have mentioned before in some unrelated post where someone was asking something along the lines of H + M = whatever, maybe they wanted 6-MAM, I don't remember and I'm too tired ustfse. But point being I made the comment, that essentially good luck man! However in reality in a real lab with real anhydrous solvents, N2 lines, etc. One could establish an equillibrium between the diacetylated M and M. As I also said, I think, but not in a spoon! Transesterifications (which is what the ASA/M thing is, essentially) are well known reactions. I can buy the possibility of this with a significant excess of the ASA as theoretically speaking, assuming you reach the activation energy the equilibrium you'll get will be determined essentially by the pKa of the leaving group. Since ASA (phenolate anion) is 1) stabilized via o-withdrawing group and 2) Is its own source for acid catalysis, and M is (in the 3 position stabilized via resonance but there's that ether/epoxide next to it and allylic OH at 6) generally just on looking at it a poorer leaving group.

Main point: Yes, I buy that this is possible, even without the paper. In contrast to this the above explaination also lays waste to the idea of using acetic acid as such (-OH, worst leaving group ever, well not ever, but you get the point). I would love to see reliable results put out using pure materials, not just the acetyl sources, ie pure M. However you have to be patient/understanding with us chem guys as we hear so many repeated suggestions over and over again, and not to mention the fact that I have used literature procedures numerous times that had to be either significantly adapted, only reported best yield even though rxn was done 20 times, or even had to be scrapped all together. That's why sometimes we doubt "lone" papers/papers with very novel but unreproduced results. But I think it would be possible under the appropriate conditions.

I really dont mean to be sarcastic on this one but how do you gather the labs in the jungles do it? Being that I doubt they have any of this "high tech" aspect of the process like a Helium atmosphere (If it was He I dont remember). I would bet they final quality of the end product they make is at least 80%+ pure and they dont have any of this stuff. I dont know if you have see pics of some of these busted labs in the jungle but all u see is the pure basics and no bathroom :) . That being said how do you think they do? Lastly, are there chemicals you can use for acetylation process of morphine that are not as hazardous as AA for example or EE or Chloroform. I'm only interested in this because its an intriguing task not because I'm some sort of junkie. I'm 28 and a pilot,stock broker and real estate investor/owner and worth half a mill+ hence, I have no intention of throwing my life out for an arrest (Nor can I afford one, if I would ever get arrested for a felony I would loose my series 7 and career) or drugs. I'm not trying to brag but I dont want you or others to have an impression of me that I'm strung out and desperate to convert morphine to H. What also makes me think its doable is the fact that it was first done it late 19th century when I doubt they even had 1/100th of the knowledge and lab materials we do now.

[nick]

So what you're saying is this,you're not a junky because you're a pilot,stock broker and alround embodyment of the american dream?
I hate to say this,but I'd imagine Wall street and the Hamptons are full of junkies.

[sebastian869]

So what you're saying is this,you're not a junky because you're a pilot,stock broker and alround embodyment of the american dream?
I hate to say this,but I'd imagine Wall street and the Hamptons are full of junkies.

Well as pilot its a problem, as you get piss tested for you're medical. As for wall St I was 2 blocks from it but Its infested with that stuff its just that there are few junkies. Thats not to say there are no people who smoke weed or take coke, that covers most of the illicit stuff. I'm a minority with opiates, though I have a few friends that share my hobby but not in the profession. The one thing that wall st has on all of us is the quality, everything that I get through my friends is awesome but its expensive as fuck. I guess the drug use and the ladder does make me the American dream, I also own 2 condos w/out mortgage in JC and a home that is 5 br .5 acre and I live in it alone, though I'm trying to rent a room or two for additional income:). No point paying 2300 for a fucking mortgage when I pretty much only use one room. I got better expenditures then that. Like I said before, I dont mean to brag but I dont want people reading that I'd like to convert M to H and think I'm a junkie. I'm just an abuser, its a lot better:), besides most of the advice I get is towards shooting and its another thing I dont do, hence, I need directions for snorting. I tried smoking H once but i was a waste. I read up and was told to use a wide straw like the cardboard from the used toilet paper and puncture aluminum foil and lit it and got the smoke and felt nothing. Anyways I would like to get the directions and do it with a pro if need be just to see it done, science has always been my favorite topic. This is what makes it so interesting for me, its just amazing that there was a day where none of this stuff was know and someone was to first to do it and figure it out.

[Dolophine]

Interesting. I love the Title of this thread! Hmongous success! lmao.

[nick]

It's your lucky day man,I smoked a lot of H for a long time and I think it's a LOT better than snorting it.First use foil for the pipe(it collects traces and can be smoked at the end).Just roll foil arould a pen and sligthly pinch the end you're going to put in your mouth.The pipe should be about2-3 inches long.
Put the junk on the foil and run a flame under till it melts into a black bead.
Now you're good to go,don't get the flame to close as it will burn the dope to quickly.You want the flame about3-4 inches(you'll work it out).Tilt the foil so the bead rolls down(not too much tilt) and follow the bead inhaling as it moves.
It just takes a little practice,but practice makes perfect.If you need any help or advice-you know where I am.

[robojunkie]

I really dont mean to be sarcastic on this one but how do you gather the labs in the jungles do it? Being that I doubt they have any of this "high tech" aspect of the process like a Helium atmosphere (If it was He I dont remember). I would bet they final quality of the end product they make is at least 80%+ pure and they dont have any of this stuff. I dont know if you have see pics of some of these busted labs in the jungle but all u see is the pure basics and no bathroom :) . That being said how do you think they do? Lastly, are there chemicals you can use for acetylation process of morphine that are not as hazardous as AA for example or EE or Chloroform. I'm only interested in this because its an intriguing task not because I'm some sort of junkie. I'm 28 and a pilot,stock broker and real estate investor/owner and worth half a mill+ hence, I have no intention of throwing my life out for an arrest (Nor can I afford one, if I would ever get arrested for a felony I would loose my series 7 and career) or drugs. I'm not trying to brag but I dont want you or others to have an impression of me that I'm strung out and desperate to convert morphine to H. What also makes me think its doable is the fact that it was first done it late 19th century when I doubt they even had 1/100th of the knowledge and lab materials we do now.

When I was talking about nitrogen lines, etc. I was referring to the idea of how this kind of reaction would best be done. After all heating a bunch of aspirin and M/opium in any kind of acid as catalyst to make H or 3 or 6 MAM's requires no water as heating H and water gives M. (And, no its not instantaneous, so people that heat the cooker don't hydrolyze all their H, they may if they did it for too long though...)

The thing about the jungle and "low tech" and all that type stuff is this: Doing shit on multikilogram scales (I'm talking about the regular old school way) gives room for some loss. If you're doing 25 or 50 kilos of opium extraction all you really need is the lime, opium, water, ammonia, heat and quite possibly the most important, a nose, not to mention they've done it this way for almost a century. Jungle or no, practice makes perfect. As for their transformation into H, a century ago they didn't know a lot but they still knew the basics (acetic anhydride means no water around, morphine has the OH groups, etc). Hell, they figured out how to innoculate for smallpox before 1800! Off topic but the point is people could figure stuff out with some intuition and good luck.

The more important part I think you're referring to is the M to H in "the jungle" and again its "practice makes perfect" (and often this is done at a different site than than the M extraction). I mean all they have to do is be told what to do by the "higher ups"...This much of this, this much of that, heat, etc. In all honesty the old (and current black market way) is pretty damn simple compared to actually extracting relatively clean M. AA may be flammable but its not gasoline or ether or TNT either. other than that they may/may not use chloroform, which isn't super flammable, water and bicarb. The point is this isn't hard but I just can't set out and say "do exactly this, step 1 through 30, etc". There are too many people, kids especially, that are dumb/daring/naive enough to think, oh that's detailed, I can do that in my kitchen...especially as a response to a specific request for it (the details, etc.) These jungle labs (I have seen numerous photos) are almost always outside under, at most a tent top with lots of ventilation. If you're referring to the stvip's attached paper and the original people who were found with the ASA, etc stuff I think the people (a small number of a tribe) got lucky and mixed some apirin crude opium and black tar. A key "tell" is the lack of thebaine in one or both of the siezed samples. Only processed O will have zero thebaine. Or maybe they opium and aspirin and figured "hey let's smoke'em together" their both for pain of various sorts and noticed this was stronger sometimes...

And...I can describe a lot of chem procedures in layman's terms, but anyone who would try to explain an actual specific procedure, why it works/doesn't work and especially one who expects others with no experience to repeat/try first (not saying you want to do this or try this, just saying in general) would be incredibly irresponsible.

So...general idea in layman's terms: Ask me again what part you're referring to...and I'll rephrase the post you quoted in that way, if that's what you're referring to. (The theory that is, not an actual set of "layman's directions" like on so many web pages I've seen in general...

Oh, one more thing generally, this procedure (the ASA one) would almost certainly never yield pure diamorphine anywhere as the the morphine was never freed from all the plant crap, ie peptides, etc. The reason poppy tea lasts so long like a time release is the same reason you can't just acid/base extract morphine from the natural source. And its also the same reason the water insoluble morphine base comes out in tea...

[SuperJunky]

I would love to see a step by step type thing going on in laymans terms w/ each step explained in theory. I realize that way to many people would misuse the info though, and while I honestly believe that this shouldn't be a reason to w/hold info, natural selection of the human race has almost been wiped out because of precautions like this, I also realize that if a few people killed themselves fallowing directions on this site, or worse yet sold the product and poisoned hundreds, it could bring heat here or at very least negative media attention that really wouldn't further our cause. I guess I'll have to get off my junky ass and into some chem courses.

I've fallowed some kitchen chem type procedures w/ good luck, and I've gotten some weird looking crap I didnt expect, but I've never hurt myself or anyone else. Some might call it luck but I like to think I do my research and have some idea what I'm doing. If I dont understand atleast the basic theory I leave it at that, theory.

[stvip]

I can't comment much about the chemistry involved. The fact that is a solid-state reaction makes me weary of most accepted reaction mechanisms (and I'm not a chemist, anyway). I'll see what the second paper has to offer with regards to elucidating the reaction itself.

Your input is appreciated.

and M is (in the 3 position stabilized via resonance but there's that ether/epoxide next to it and allylic OH at 6) generally just on looking at it a poorer leaving group.

But in practice, the 6-O position gets selectively acylated (seen with GAA, ASA, and even APAP alone - 1/1 ratio at 170c yielded 22% 6-MAM, 2% 3-MAM 1% diamorphine).

The reason poppy tea lasts so long like a time release is the same reason you can't just acid/base extract morphine from the natural source.

Opium is stronger than morphine, but I don't think the reasons are known. I and others have speculated that it might involve the presence of other related alkaloids (such reticuline and thebaine; more than one interaction mechanism is possible). To what are you refering?

nd not to mention the fact that I have used literature procedures numerous times that had to be either significantly adapted, only reported best yield even though rxn was done 20 times, or even had to be scrapped all together

This is a good point (one that many people lacking experience do not realize; in my field, it's usually misleading conclusions in the abstracts; in all fields, procedures from patents are problematic). However, there's usually a motive for those papers being vague (sometimes downright misleading), and there doesn't seem to be one for this paper (and they're deliberately to recreate the simplest procedure possible with those materials). There's also the second paper about acetylcodeine for corroboration.

And its also the same reason the water insoluble morphine base comes out in tea...
The morphine in its natural state isn't in base form, it forms a salt with meconate.

A key "tell" is the lack of thebaine in one or both of the siezed samples. Only processed O will have zero thebaine.
The opium did have thebaine in it, whereas the seized prepared samples did not. However, they replicated the product profile of the samples by heating the opium with ASA/APAP, noting:"Acetylation of the thebaine did not contribute substantially to the product mixture. Under typical reaction conditions pure thebaine disappeared, but it produced only minor amounts of characterizable products".

Or maybe they opium and aspirin and figured "hey let's smoke'em together" their both for pain of various sorts and noticed this was stronger sometimes...Opium has been traditionally smoked with ASA. Presumably did led to small amounts of acetylation, an inefficient in situ reaction. Some quotes (even though the reason may elude the commentators):

"
An opium smoker rolls a freshly mixed ball of opium over the flame to solidify it.

Old opium that smokes into the ceramic pot at the end of the breathing tube turns hard and brittle. It is ground up with a metal pestle and new opium is added along with chinese aspirin powder.

...

Once full, the "shit" is scraped out and ground into powder and used again.
Chinese aspirin powder packets can be seen to the left. "

"every male over the age of 18 owned a well-crafted glass-bowled opium pipe, a gas or oil lamp for heating opium, crushed aspirin for mixing with opium ... After the cooking, eating and cleaning, the men broke out their pipes and went to work with their oil lamps heating the opium and mixing it with aspirin powder. (Aspirin powder was the only Western medicine they had and it never occurred to them to use it for anything besides cutting opium.)"

"Smoking O is
about next best if you have enough, I have heard of mixing a small amount of aspirin with it to smoke is slightly stronger"

"the dogs would joyously follow the trekkers to the hut where the "headman"
for the night would dutifully prepare the scared opium consisting of probably
the pipe cleanings from their own opium pipe which they would mix with aspirin
to lessed the expected headache."

[HistoryofMadness]

this thread turned out nicely... passionate debates are good things, i just hate to see them get personal. if i offended anyone with my nanny behavior and comments, well, fuck you.

i'm with jacky - anytime the community (not this one, the whole psychonaut community) can use common ingredients to circumvent current restrictions, that's a good thing. gotta keep them on their toes.

anyway i know nothing about chemistry so i'm not the guy. but i'd like to see it too. anytime you can reproduce results, or get more info, its a good thing. i do know that much about science.

[robojunkie]

But in practice, the 6-O position gets selectively acylated (seen with GAA, ASA, and even APAP alone - 1/1 ratio at 170c yielded 22% 6-MAM, 2% 3-MAM 1% diamorphine).


In acylations of the acetic anhydride type the selectivity of which -OH is essentially a matter of which loses the proton more easily once acetylated (as at some point with an uncatalyzed rxn the oxygen has three groups, including the proton as a transition state/intermediate). The phenol (3-O) is more acidic and so is acetylated first. However for the same reasons this is also the first to deacetylate in the presence of acidic water (the reasons making it a better "leaving group" are also what make it more acidic) or just even water over time which is why street H often has 6-MAM in it. In the case of the ASA rxn which is an acid catalyzed transesterification ("trading" the O-morphine/O-salicylic acid groups) I'm relatively sure that the 3 would receive the acetyl group "first" as in at a higher rate, however since it is less stable towards acidic conditions it is lost, probably even faster. Really its a bunch of kinetics that someone who is into that area could study specifically.


Opium is stronger than morphine, but I don't think the reasons are known. I and others have speculated that it might involve the presence of other related alkaloids (such reticuline and thebaine; more than one interaction mechanism is possible). To what are you refering?This is due to the presence, I believe, of all the polypeptides (enzymes, proteins,etc.) The morphine (and other alkaloids) are all bound up in this matrix and the stomach/GI tract needs to lyse these to increase the absorption of the alkaloids. This is also, I am virtually certain, why 1) when morphine is extracted from O it is done in base between pH 11-13 at boiling temps, not because this is needed to make the sodium/calcium water soluble morphinate, this is very fast. It is because it is necessary to decompose the amide linkages in the peptides. This is evidenced by the fact that the endpoint indicator for this from what I have read is the cessation of ammonia being generated (As thermal basic hydrolysis of amides produces ammonia). One cannot simply do an acid/base extraction on opium. If one digs deep this information is probably quoted somewhere...


The morphine in its natural state isn't in base form, it forms a salt with meconate.Average morphine content is around 10% by weight. Meconic acid is, what, less than a percent? Not totally sure on this, but in principle the alkaloids (all of them far outnumber the meconic acid and the one or two others) so it is really a basic alkaloid.


The opium did have thebaine in it, whereas the seized prepared samples did not. However, they replicated the product profile of the samples by heating the opium with ASA/APAP, noting:"Acetylation of the thebaine did not contribute substantially to the product mixture. Under typical reaction conditions pure thebaine disappeared, but it produced only minor amounts of characterizable products".Yes, the tell I was talking about was the siezed samples. You can't easily in one step acylate thebaine it is a 3,6-dimethyl ether. These aren't acylated. Think of the whole codeine to morphine to h processes. None I know of that can do it in one step. Not sure why the thebaine disappeared, could be the concentrated, high heat acid catalyzed opening of the epoxide. Don't recall whether they reported unknown peaks in their/seized samples.

Just thought of this, it is possible that since the 6-O in thebaine is a "methyl protected enone" that the acid could generate a structure akin to the hydrocodones, as in a proton goes on the 14 position, activates the 6-methyl and on an on...

[sebastian869]

When I was talking about nitrogen lines, etc. I was referring to the idea of how this kind of reaction would best be done. After all heating a bunch of aspirin and M/opium in any kind of acid as catalyst to make H or 3 or 6 MAM's requires no water as heating H and water gives M. (And, no its not instantaneous, so people that heat the cooker don't hydrolyze all their H, they may if they did it for too long though...)

The thing about the jungle and "low tech" and all that type stuff is this: Doing shit on multikilogram scales (I'm talking about the regular old school way) gives room for some loss. If you're doing 25 or 50 kilos of opium extraction all you really need is the lime, opium, water, ammonia, heat and quite possibly the most important, a nose, not to mention they've done it this way for almost a century. Jungle or no, practice makes perfect. As for their transformation into H, a century ago they didn't know a lot but they still knew the basics (acetic anhydride means no water around, morphine has the OH groups, etc). Hell, they figured out how to innoculate for smallpox before 1800! Off topic but the point is people could figure stuff out with some intuition and good luck.

The more important part I think you're referring to is the M to H in "the jungle" and again its "practice makes perfect" (and often this is done at a different site than than the M extraction). I mean all they have to do is be told what to do by the "higher ups"...This much of this, this much of that, heat, etc. In all honesty the old (and current black market way) is pretty damn simple compared to actually extracting relatively clean M. AA may be flammable but its not gasoline or ether or TNT either. other than that they may/may not use chloroform, which isn't super flammable, water and bicarb. The point is this isn't hard but I just can't set out and say "do exactly this, step 1 through 30, etc". There are too many people, kids especially, that are dumb/daring/naive enough to think, oh that's detailed, I can do that in my kitchen...especially as a response to a specific request for it (the details, etc.) These jungle labs (I have seen numerous photos) are almost always outside under, at most a tent top with lots of ventilation. If you're referring to the stvip's attached paper and the original people who were found with the ASA, etc stuff I think the people (a small number of a tribe) got lucky and mixed some apirin crude opium and black tar. A key "tell" is the lack of thebaine in one or both of the siezed samples. Only processed O will have zero thebaine. Or maybe they opium and aspirin and figured "hey let's smoke'em together" their both for pain of various sorts and noticed this was stronger sometimes...

And...I can describe a lot of chem procedures in layman's terms, but anyone who would try to explain an actual specific procedure, why it works/doesn't work and especially one who expects others with no experience to repeat/try first (not saying you want to do this or try this, just saying in general) would be incredibly irresponsible.

So...general idea in layman's terms: Ask me again what part you're referring to...and I'll rephrase the post you quoted in that way, if that's what you're referring to. (The theory that is, not an actual set of "layman's directions" like on so many web pages I've seen in general...

Oh, one more thing generally, this procedure (the ASA one) would almost certainly never yield pure diamorphine anywhere as the the morphine was never freed from all the plant crap, ie peptides, etc. The reason poppy tea lasts so long like a time release is the same reason you can't just acid/base extract morphine from the natural source. And its also the same reason the water insoluble morphine base comes out in tea...

I just find it amazing that all of this must of started with one guy who had the original and brilliant idea, how one goes from know nothing to a cure for smallpox is beyond me (Though I was tought that some brit saw that milk maids cought a less severe strain of small pox and got to idea to inoculate people with that strain, maybe there were more techs I never heard of). The one thing that I find more amazing then the human brain is nature and evolution it self, as in the case of human resistance to HIV and how it came about. It appreas that people who are immune to AIDS attained that property through a genetic mutation that occured becouse of that "black death" or the plague of the 17th century (If I remember correctly). Whats more amazing is that the plague was bacterial where as AIDS is viral, as I'm sure you know. It appreas that the route of attack into the white blood cell is the same, hence, the mutation workes for both infections (Though you need to have gotten the mutation from both parents to be most effective).

I gotta say that you make a valid point about kids finding a 1-10 step process and be more incline to try themselfs. It never really crossed my head, as I would not think kids could gain access to the chemicals not to mention the morphine, though I guess it is possible and with that said I agree that even with a small chance it should not be done.

Do you really think though that quantity assure quality, in other words, since jungle labs have such large batches they dont need to have an efficient process or setup (So for example, does a He atmosphere degrade the final product in the jungle or just create needless loss in the process). A little off beat here, not that I'm ever going to cook or refine 50kg opium or any for that matter but the lime in the process makes the morphine water soluble and lets the morphine be soluable in the solution and allows the filtering of the unwanted materials, correct? Also, Heroin Hydrochloride has a final structure of 3-MAM or 6-MAM?

"As heating H and water gives M" do you mean to say that when you heat H in water you get M? Is that the reverse of the process? and why do you say "after heating a bunch of asprin" do you need to used asprin in the process to convert M to H? I though it was just the same process used to creat both (Acetylation).

Chloroform is used as a filter/cleaning agent, correct? Also, if I understand correctly, ethyl ether is exponentially more flammable then AA? What did you mean in that line I've tried to outline (About stvip and people found with ASA? I heard there is a strain of poppys that have no morphine and a lot more thebaine, I find it amazing that in one plant you have a Narcotic/Downer and an Upper. Its just amazing that a wild plant just by chance managed to produce a chemical that manages to fit perfectly in certain receptors in our nervous system.

Well, what I was refering to is a detail process not a general one, as the general process is available on the net (though I dont know if its infact correct), whats lacking is one that spells every step out and explains why you want to do it in such a fashion and most important emplains the correct proportions (a lot of the stuff I've seen says mix A with B without saying how much A to B)

I dont think you answered this one, can different (Less toxic and dangerous) chemicals be used to acetylate M to H (in the place of AA for example)
Lastly, is there a difference between M sulfate and M hydrochloride in the way you're body processes the drug? for example, is one verison better to snort then the other? Please keep in mind, all my questions are geared towards oral or intranasal administration.

[robojunkie]

I just find it amazing that all of this must of started with one guy who had the original and brilliant idea, how one goes from know nothing to a cure for smallpox is beyond me (Though I was tought that some brit saw that milk maids cought a less severe strain of small pox and got to idea to inoculate people with that strain, maybe there were more techs I never heard of). The one thing that I find more amazing then the human brain is nature and evolution it self, as in the case of human resistance to HIV and how it came about. It appreas that people who are immune to AIDS attained that property through a genetic mutation that occured becouse of that "black death" or the plague of the 17th century (If I remember correctly). Whats more amazing is that the plague was bacterial where as AIDS is viral, as I'm sure you know. It appreas that the route of attack into the white blood cell is the same, hence, the mutation workes for both infections (Though you need to have gotten the mutation from both parents to be most effective).

Yes, very amazing. This is what comes from the ability to notice sublime differences and connect them. You are correct the smallpox "vaccine" (named such as it came from cows) was discovered via this observation. The first experimental test of this idea was done with some cowpox infected cow serum injected into a 5 year old boy. He was then exposed to smallpox, never got sick and grew from there. Is that confidence or questionable medical ethics?


I gotta say that you make a valid point about kids finding a 1-10 step process and be more incline to try themselfs. It never really crossed my head, as I would not think kids could gain access to the chemicals not to mention the morphine, though I guess it is possible and with that said I agree that even with a small chance it should not be done.Well, what I was refering to is a detail process not a general one, as the general process is available on the net (though I dont know if its infact correct), whats lacking is one that spells every step out and explains why you want to do it in such a fashion and most important emplains the correct proportions (a lot of the stuff I've seen says mix A with B without saying how much A to B)See this is where I am getting a little confused. For the reasons you mention in the first quote I don't want to give out a stepwise way of doing this, especially directed to a specific person (not saying you in particular, just the idea of saying directly to someone "do this, this and this exactly this way"). I know you said you aren't going to attempt these things but, in addition to the fact that adults aren't going to find acetic anhydride or whatever else any easier than teenagers not that's it age, but experience, but I won't say do this do that. It is one thing to publish/upload/whatever a write up, however detailed (freedom of speech) but specifically instructing someone in particular in "illegal" things I believe is "conspiracy" or some such bullshit. And I know you say you don't want to actually do this but I think either all or all but one or two of your posts have been related to this topic. Not to mention on another forum too (I think).

Also, Heroin Hydrochloride has a final structure of 3-MAM or 6-MAM?This is another reason, in my judgment, not to directly state these things. You know "heroin" the old Bayer trademark is actually DIacetylmorphine, right? Not 3-Monoacetyl or 6-monoacetyl. ie, heroin equals 3,6-diacetylmorphine.

"As heating H and water gives M" do you mean to say that when you heat H in water you get M? Is that the reverse of the process? and why do you say "after heating a bunch of asprin" do you need to used asprin in the process to convert M to H? I though it was just the same process used to creat both (Acetylation).Salicylic acid to acetylSA and morphine to diacetylmorphine are acetylations. Using something like aspirin to transfer the acetyl group to morphine, though you could loosely call it acetylation, is really a trans-esterification. And the H + water + heat to M would be an example of ester hydrolysis. Made much faster in the presence of acid.

Also, if I understand correctly, ethyl ether is exponentially more flammable then AA?Yes, ether is extremely dangerous to work with anywhere but in a ventilated lab/fume hood or outside on a fairly cold and windy day. Ether can be held in you hand in a flask and it will begin to boil it is so volatile. That is why it is so flammable. The vapor just comes out and sinks down, not up, all along the floor until it hits an electric appliance/static discharge/oven coil/smoker/whatever. Many a would be meth cook with lots of bravado and even more stupidity/arrogance/inexperience has been done in like this. An ether fire in a home/apartment/trailer would be like what happens when you have a gas leak and all of a sudden your house (and your neighbors' no longer exist).


I dont think you answered this one, can different (Less toxic and dangerous) chemicals be used to acetylate M to H (in the place of AA for example)
Lastly, is there a difference between M sulfate and M hydrochloride in the way you're body processes the drug? for example, is one verison better to snort then the other? Please keep in mind, all my questions are geared towards oral or intranasal administration.Diff chems? Yes. Less "toxic" and dangerous? No. And you didn't ask this one but: More accessible: NO. And I honestly don't know off the top of my head what differences if any there would be between MS and MHCl for snorting. I think sulfate is used for IV ampules due to solubility, but I'm not sure.

Anyways, I hope I answered some of your questions, and I don't mean to come off like a jerk off or a condescending prick, but in my judgment you don't have the experience or prior knowledge to be attempting any of these reactions. Case in point the uncertainty about diacetylmorphine. I don't know if you're just curious or if you really want to pull this stuff off, but I can't/won't "instruct" you. Regardless of your intentions (intellectual or practical) may I suggest the best thing would be to pick up a good undergrad organic text, learn the mechanisms, theory, reagents, the how and the why of general methods, etc. and really study it. Take an organic lab class so you can actually work with some of these solvents and have a sense of them in real life. If, in fact, you are just curious about opiate chem (as I am and have spent many many hours reading up on all kinds of stuff, but I don't actually do these procedures, I'll just buy my h if when I want to do it, I do research that's not opiate related. Not much left to research on opiate chem, its one of the oldest organic topics, thoroughly worked out) I cannot recommend more highly that you read/teach yourself organic chem theory and read the actual papers written over the years on this stuff. But learn the general organic stuff first, otherwise it won't make sense. If you're just curious I hope I didn't offend you. If you really are looking for someone to instruct you don't bother looking here. Anyone can view this regardless of membership type or even membership at all. Maybe someday when I'm older and, like a lot of old people, have that nice "don't give a fuck" attitude I'll publish a nice big book on this stuff and collect lots of royalties...haha. j/k.

Edit: When I say opiate chem has been thoroughly worked out I'm talking about the common and not so common but fairly old ones...there are numerous natural sources of partial mu-opioid receptor agonists that are not well known or researched as of yet...I don't know alot about this area but there are definitely some who do.

[sebastian869]

FUCK, I just reset the page after writing a book and now have to do it again. Anyways, thanks for the long and detailed answers. I dont remember what I wrote. One thing I wanted to get clear is that before I said I will never be coverting opium to M or H (As I'd imagine if I had mulit kilos of O I would just as easy have the access to H). I do understand all you're points on why you would not want to make a step by step process. In all honesty though, even if the final product was not H I have become intrested in chemistry becouse of all this. I just dont know if its practical for me to start and learn the whole science. At this point I dought I'll bother with taking this any further as I now better understand the risks. Thats not to say that I will not if I find someone who will help me out and walk me through it. Having never finished college I'm going to start to look around for people who have (bio chem) and see if they are interested. As to you're last point, I gotta say its amazing to me that in the 21st century, with the advent of computers, space shuttle and the interenet (to name a few) we are so in the dark when it comes to pain meds. Having had 3 spine surgiries I wish there was something better then morphine. I have fallen victom to its side effects (no morphine per say but opiates in general as I got addicted to oxycodone in 96). Its just amazing to me that the current medical threshold for pain killers is morphine and it "dady" was around thousands of years ago, before the wheel. I have heard stuff of them isolating toxin from a sea snail and asked my pain management doc about it and he said "its not for me" (I gotta ask him why). Its just amazing that Alexander the great was taking a similar substance to what I'm taking today. Anyways, I read a post you did and was wondering how are you making out? (thats what made me fuck up the previous response). I was addicted to oxy then after like 7-8 yrs got up to 400xmonth and it would last me 2 weeks and thats what introducted me to H. Today I'm taking avinza 270mgx24hrs and do H once or twice in a week. As far as I'm concerned I'm already addicted to the M hence I can get away with H and its worked for the most part. The one problem has been psychology, as I'm not dependant on H I though I cant have any probs but its not true. I have to make myself stay home for days and not do it. As the avinza is given to me by design, since it does not give me any euphoria. I've been honest with my current doc as I learned that by lying to my previous one helped get me in trouble, I even told him I did H. Needless to say he was not happy (and it sucks since he does not want to chew me out for telling him suchs things and being honest and yet still doing wrong). Moral of the story, we need new and better pain meds. Have you tried that LAAM or suboxone?

[robojunkie]

FUCK, I just reset the page after writing a book and now have to do it again. Anyways, thanks for the long and detailed answers. I dont remember what I wrote. One thing I wanted to get clear is that before I said I will never be coverting opium to M or H (As I'd imagine if I had mulit kilos of O I would just as easy have the access to H). I do understand all you're points on why you would not want to make a step by step process. In all honesty though, even if the final product was not H I have become intrested in chemistry becouse of all this. I just dont know if its practical for me to start and learn the whole science. At this point I dought I'll bother with taking this any further as I now better understand the risks. Thats not to say that I will not if I find someone who will help me out and walk me through it. Having never finished college I'm going to start to look around for people who have (bio chem) and see if they are interested.

Good to hear you aren't gonna try to do this/find someone here to help you, cause as I said no one will...and its good to learn chem (or anything for that matter). I have to tell you though, with part about "if I did find..." just understand what you're actually asking: You would be asking someone to "actively participate" in an ongoing criminal act, and over the internet. Look I'm not a lawyer, but I believe anyone can publish any kind of procedure and as long as the proper disclaimers are there or its in the academic literature its freedom of speech/press/science/etc. Hell the dea and its journal of forensic science continuously publishes procedures on making all kind of illegal drugs, as they can because they can give their chemists CI/II research licenses. However directly corresponding back and forth with a person involved in this type of thing like a guide or whatever is, as far as the law goes, like being in the room helping/doing it yourself. And of course there's gray area in between like "knowing" someone is specifically intending to break the law and then providing them specifically assistance in this. Point is use your better judgment if you ever find someone who is all too willing to help...may not be from the type of person you want it from. Maybe a kid with a big ego. Maybe someone who's full of it and just talks like they know shit. Maybe a cop. Who knows. Or maybe vice versa. As I have said before anyone who actually is or intends to in the future do these reactions should stay the f off the radar/web/everything, hell not even be on a board like this at all. Taking you at your word on here without questions, I would say you have already drawn too much attention to yourself as interested in doing this or appearing that way. How many prisoners/ex prisoners will tell you they're there cause of a "partner"? A fucking lot I bet. I'll tell you one thing, if I was doing/was going to be doing any of these things, I would not ever reveal knowledge of chem and probably wouldn't even join site like this. As in CYA. Assume the government feds can hack there way with or w/o legal warrant and find anyone's IP address/identity.

Best advice: Don't go looking for this specific help from strangers on the internet. Period. Think about it...


Anyways, I read a post you did and was wondering how are you making out? (thats what made me fuck up the previous response).

Which post was that? Something about kicking done? If so it sucked and lasted forever, like 4 months and then no energy motivation etc. I'm not sure if that's what you meant though...

[blackdog]

yeah play nice. still i think i'll try to stay outta this one except to ask stvip if he has possibly crossed paths in Israel with my friend Jon rachamin? he's just recently moved back to the homeland and his tribe. on a kibbutz? i doubt it.also I'd like to show these ideas and ask mobius dick a fellow from adh for his thoughts. whom i haven't seen in a while. all n' all a very interesting idea, fer sure. peace
dawgg,:p

[sebastian869]

Point is use your better judgment if you ever find someone who is all too willing to help...may not be from the type of person you want it from. Maybe a kid with a big ego. Maybe someone who's full of it and just talks like they know shit. Maybe a cop. Who knows. Or maybe vice versa.


Best advice: Don't go looking for this specific help from strangers on the internet. Period. Think about it...




Which post was that? Something about kicking done? If so it sucked and lasted forever, like 4 months and then no energy motivation etc. I'm not sure if that's what you meant though...


Yeah, I got you're message. To be honest I'm not scared of that, I did not mean I'm going to search through this site or web. My younger brother is still (for like 10 yrs) going to school. I'm sure he or friends of mine have an understanding of this material, at least a lot more then I do. I would not ask you to participate if I really wanted to do it, I would ask you for a contact and speak to you in private or who ever, but I dought it would be anyone here.

The post you had was about toughing it out through phases of WD. That is the one I was alluding to. I'm glad to hear that you're out of the woods on that. Not to sound mean but its nice to see some else with intellect that made the same mistake of turning to the opiate god and learned the hard way that its no panacea. To write literally again, its nice to see someone else make it out. I'v been there before and had it last for 2.5 yrs and now I'm back on for the last 6 yrs and I gotta say, I like sobriety more. Would you agree?

[robojunkie]

Ok first of all, sorry guys, i skipped all but the first half page of posts.


IMO that's horrible advice. the peer review process is enough to figure out who's all talk and who really can help.

Yeah, the peer review process as such is of course good for learning and not wasting a lot of time. But it's usually called the "peer review process" because the "peers" are others who also know/have experience with the topic being discussed. Yeah, I know some of certain old and current sites know what they are talking about but from what I have seen there are a lot who post crap on those sites that is very incomplete or just bullshit. Not to mention all the arguing flaming etc. And the point I was making is that there is a big fucking difference between discussing stuff which I support and specifically instructing one chem noob in how to do something in "real time".

I suggest you ONLY get advice from the online forums, use encryption and don't leave a trail for LEO to get you.So, I guess he shouldn't bother learning some basic chem theory/lab experience basics first, huh?

The most risky part of chemistry is dealing with people in real life, whether it be to buy precursors or to ask for advice, real contact is risky.Yeah, and I don't have this undying faith in the infallibility of all this anonymous/encryption stuff in the face of gov technology either.

I will answer any questions you have about this process if they haven't been answered already, just don't go out asking people you know about this shit cuz people can't keep thier fucking mouths shut and they'll rat you out in a second to save thier own ass


Lucky for us, information is not illegal. learning to synthesize drugs may be frowned upon by some, but it's totally legal. it's always wise to talk hypotheically, and if you succeed, definately talk hypotheically when reporting it. if you yeild 50kg of heroin, don't say that, just state your yeilds as a percentage, in a dreamWasn't suggesting he just go asking people, etc. Nothing wrong with looking shit up, not hard to do, it was a simple utmfse type thing. And sorry but the site where lots of dreams happen is nice and there are some people who know their shit there, but again, is he going to know the difference? "Oh its done in two hours, always don't need a balloon", next guy, "never stop before 24 hours" next guy "never heat above 136 C (or some other temp that didn't make sense for the topic)" these are random paraphrases (not exact quotes) I've seen there. These were all from one or two threads, if I remember correctly and there were many more like this to confuse one who is not familiar with theory. I assume this site is the to which you are dreaming about. (BTW, no I don't post there or any chem site, but obviously I signed up to read).

Why did they tell you not to? a 5 gram batch would be safe and easy if you have the materials
it would stink up the house a bit, but it would be quite easy to do it on your back step with a cheapo hotplate.

the avinza is no problem. just crush the beads, extract into water, basify to precipitate the morphine.
react the morphine with the AA in a small beaker.
basyify the resulting product, add a non-polar, shake, let sit for 10 minutes, separate the non-polar, add a small amount of water, titrate with hcl (do 3 pulls). evaporate the extracted heroin. rinse away any excess hcl with a very tiny amount on acetone.

This should result in a usable product, but you should recrystallize anyways.

Really? Basify to precipitate the morphine? This is what I mean, sorry but I assume you know/hope you do that it aint that simple. Basify for most means carbonate or hydroxide and that won't precipitate shit wrt morphine. Look up the pka's. Missing steps and such. This is my point this person wants "detailed step by step" stuff. That quicky above will not help him as he doesn't know the theory stuff (yet at least, but he does seem motivated to learn at some point). Don't take it the wrong way dude but if you're gonna say my advice is the worst you better kick in something a hell of a lot better, or at least just better. Recrystallize, huh? He's got no experience yet. Why not practice with aspirin and learn on something useless and of no value? That's my point about experience/teaching yourself.

Had hoped this thread was gonna die soon but as the world turns...

[superman]

robo, you sure do have a lot a criticism...... too bad none of it is contructive
just what do you disagree with anyways? I am not about to go and make another write-up on heroin synthesis. That's what some would call 'reinventing the wheel'.

Anyways you sure have a lot of input on this, so i have to ask; what do you know about chemistry? are you one of those guys that lurks around chem forums absorbing disconnected bits of information just so that you can add to a conversation and sound intelligent?

I'm not trying to offend you robo, but all you've done is criticize my posts, don't tell me you have nothing to add?

Also, is it possible to use sulfuric acid rather then HCL for the cystalization?

yes you could. But, I gotta admit, I've never heard of heroin sulfate being available. for the sake of $20 i'd just grab the 4L jug of hcl. it's at the hardware store, they call it 'pool acid'. well worth it considering this jug will likely last for the rest of your life.

I wanted to get exact direction (proportions) if possible and more over I want to make sure I get a 100% precise directions as I'm a novice (not a moron) hence, I think with the right directions I can do it. Also I wanted to know what make/brand hot plate you recommend?
BTW, I would do this in a ventilated area such as out side. (do you think a carbon filter gas mask would protect u from AA fumes?)

before you start worrying about quantities, did you read about how to do an acid base extraction? if so then you should know what materials are required. the only difference here is that you need some narrow range ph strips in addition to the regular ones. the narrow range strips are for getting the ph to 9.1 so as to precipitate the morphine. have you decided to go ahead with this? if so i can toss together a shopping list for you tomorrow or so. I haven't had a wink of sleep for 24 hours and i'm not feeling particularily motived at this exact moment.... perhaps it's time for another shot of D....

as for the hot plate, don't go buying a real good one. i'd just grab a wal-mart $20 piece of electric junk. you're not working with flammables so there's no worries.

Don't worry about the fumes, just do it on your deck if you have one, or on your lawn or whatever... garage even. you COULD do it in your house but it will stink it up like vinegar and that would be a major heat score

[robojunkie]

robo, you sure do have a lot a criticism...... too bad none of it is contructive
just what do you disagree with anyways? I am not about to go and make another write-up on heroin synthesis. That's what some would call 'reinventing the wheel'.

Anyways you sure have a lot of input on this, so i have to ask; what do you know about chemistry? are you one of those guys that lurks around chem forums absorbing disconnected bits of information just so that you can add to a conversation and sound intelligent?

First of all I had dropped this thread until you posted to sebastian about his questions, etc and, sorry but you began with the criticisms regarding worst idea ever. What, learn some fucking chemistry before you try this shit? That was my point. Neither you nor I nor anyone need make a frickin write up on a procedure over 100 years old. It's written everywhere, HE wanted someone (or at least I strongly inferred) that he wanted someone to be IMing back and forth with him on this. Bad idea for this forum. Hey if he knew enough he could go over to wd or rhodium/erowid and go from there. And no I don't "lurk" about looking to sound intelligent. I actually am a "legitimate" chemist. Beyond that I am not giving you my friggin CV. I don't bother spending much time on the chem sites other than to see "what's new". I don't post cause I'm not doing anything relevant to the topics and as such wouldn't be contributing.

I'm not trying to offend you robo, but all you've done is criticize my posts, don't tell me you have nothing to add?

Dude, I don't know what you know/don't know wrt to synthesis and such, my point about the acid base extraction is valid when you're talking about M. Remember most of this thread was that I was involved in was prior to your posts and the person was the "novice but not a moron" (as he referred to himself). I just thought it confusing that since this guy doesn't know a lot about the particular subject right now that comment about a/b'ing M would mean to him what I said. And he would have an "empty" non-polar with the common things people use to basify. Yeah, now you made the point about the pH regarding the phenolate salt and shit but... OK, but this is the whole point, he doesn't know about this stuff so what the fuck is wrong with suggesting he teach himself some orgo first and not fuck himself up playing with fire?


before you start worrying about quantities, did you read about how to do an acid base extraction? if so then you should know what materials are required. the only difference here is that you need some narrow range ph strips in addition to the regular ones. the narrow range strips are for getting the ph to 9.1 so as to precipitate the morphine. have you decided to go ahead with this? if so i can toss together a shopping list for you tomorrow or so. I haven't had a wink of sleep for 24 hours and i'm not feeling particularily motived at this exact moment.... perhaps it's time for another shot of D....

OK, this is what I was sayin' above. I think quotes are gettin' mixed up cause I'm not asking anything about how to whatever (if the last part was directed at me). But I just disagree with the idea that you're telling the guy who says outright he doesn't know alot about this a short little thing about M to H. Hell he's better off not doing it at all, or barring that at least learning the fine details somewhere else with a little effort on his part and such but some short thing about it...

So maybe I came off as irritated or whatever in my last post but this pointless thread has been going on with him continually saying "I'm not gonna do this ever" and then "Can someone PM me with step by step help, here's my IM address" and its just really not the place for it. Then you jumped in with the criticism and short general amine/alkaloid type extraction thing and the "worst suggestion" or whatever comment. I just said he should teach himself, not go asking buddies in real life how to make this and get that, etc. It might be good to read the whole thread, as you indicated you didn't. So if you misconstrued what I was saying, maybe that's it, maybe not. I don't know. And I don't know what you're talking about when you ask if I have anything constructive to add. Wrt what? How to do this for him? Better extraction? Really not sure...I was tryin' to convince the guy not to bother or teach himself stuff and not be another cookbook chemist wannabe who fucks himself and/or friends up. I wasn't trying to give "better" ways of doing this conversion. Anyhow...

[HistoryofMadness]

man i never knew chemists were so ruthless. . . note to self.

[robojunkie]

Fucking academia can be as cut throat as Somalia.

[HistoryofMadness]

Fucking academia can be as cut throat as Somalia.

i'm not even keeping up with the info, just the drama. you guys need a platform.

Reality show: Seven chemists, that are also in different phases of drug addiction, are given all the chemicals, money, and drugs they want. They can do anything they want with them. But its all going on tape!

Will they collaberate to save the world, or to make new drugs? Will they get the Nobel Peace Prize or end up in prison? Or will they be too busy fighting to get anything done?

Tonight, only on the faux noise channel, we'll finally find out.

(fade to black - yelling in background, followed by sounds of smoking, bongs bubbling, rigs being thumped, then more arguing for 30 seconds, then cigarettes being lit and music comes on)... then in big bold white letters, the name of the show appears:

Fatal Reaction.

[alowishus]

Fucking academia can be as cut throat as Somalia.


Hey, leave Somalia outa 'dis!!


:p :p


Points to HoM for that idea!!

[nick]

Nice idea HOM,but I still say pro academic arm wrestling is the way to go.

academics behave so badly because the stakes are so low.

[stvip]

In acylations of the acetic anhydride type the selectivity of which -OH is essentially a matter of which loses the proton more easily once acetylated (as at some point with an uncatalyzed rxn the oxygen has three groups, including the proton as a transition state/intermediate). The phenol (3-O) is more acidic and so is acetylated first. However for the same reasons this is also the first to deacetylate in the presence of acidic water (the reasons making it a better "leaving group" are also what make it more acidic) or just even water over time which is why street H often has 6-MAM in it.

That much is obvious. It isn't a sufficient explanation for some of the observed morphine chemistry, though. I'd wager the question has been suitably studied and there are papers which explicate it all.

In the case of the ASA rxn which is an acid catalyzed transesterificationIs "transesterification" the correct nomenclature when one of the reactants is an alcohol? Anyway, I'm not sure why you call it acid catalyzed. As I understand it, what happens is that at 120-130 c ASA decomposes, which liberates a free acetyl group, which forms an ester with the morphine 3,6 oxygens. I don't understand why this di-acetylates, whereas GAA only mono-acetylates (at 6-O) (maybe it leaves a radical?). Moreover, it's a solid-state reaction, which leaves me all the more hesitant to speculate about the MOA, it's really beyond my knowledge, and probably beyond those of most chemists who aren't experienced with these matters specifically. I think I'll get the second paper which discusses the actual chemistry of this reaction in more detail. But all that doesn't really matter. What matters is that they've shown that this reaction works.


This is due to the presence, I believe, of all the polypeptides (enzymes, proteins,etc.) The morphine (and other alkaloids) are all bound up in this matrix and the stomach/GI tract needs to lyse these to increase the absorption of the alkaloids.This is also, I am virtually certain, why 1) when morphine is extracted from O it is done in base between pH 11-13 at boiling temps, not because this is needed to make the sodium/calcium water soluble morphinate, this is very fast. It is because it is necessary to decompose the amide linkages in the peptides. [/quote]

That's an interesting hypothesis. However: 1. A cold-water extraction of ground poppy straw is efficient in extracting the morphine. 2. It would imply that opium would have a lower rate of onset than morphine, which doesn't appear to be the case.

As far as I know, the utility of going through calcium morphinate is that most calcium salts are insoluble, whereas morphine and codeine are unique among the somniferum alkaloids in forming a soluble salt. So in that step, a whole lot of plant material (including the meconate) and unwanted alkaloids are discarded (most acid-base extraction don't have to deal with a diversity of undesirable alkaloids in significant amounts).

This is evidenced by the fact that the endpoint indicator for this from what I have read is the cessation of ammonia being generated (As thermal basic hydrolysis of amides produces ammonia).Interesting.

Average morphine content is around 10% by weight. Meconic acid is, what, less than a percent?No, also 10% (see Duke's), which puts it at a higher molar concentration. Any review about opium will mention that the morphine is almost entirely in form of a soluble salt (some say almost all meconate, other give greater weight to the sulfate salt).

Yes, the tell I was talking about was the siezed samples. Yes, but my point was that the thebaine disappeared in their method of preparation too, so there's no reason to think the Hmong samples were prepared with AA. Anyhow, it's pretty much irrelevant - the results the researchers achieved themselves are what matters (with varying the conditions, they considerably better yields too).

By the way, look at the quotes I gave demonstrating traditional admixture of ASA, one of them shows not merely adding ASA to the opium and smoking immediately, but rather a slow cooking of them together (presumably to be smoked later).

Not sure why the thebaine disappeared, could be the concentrated, high heat acid catalyzed opening of the epoxide. Don't recall whether they reported unknown peaks in their/seized samples.

Well, my guess is that thebaine is present in relatively small amounts, so if it decomposes to several different products, it might appear as noise. Also, they might have simply not looked for unknown products, only thebaine and acetylated derivatives (indeed, you can see in the GC graph some small unlabeled peaks).

[stvip]

Will they collaberate to save the world, or to make new drugs?

They will synthesize explosives and eliminate the competition, of course. Then they will save the world by making new drugs.

Moderators: If you want to make Opiophile a place where real discussion can occur, please take all the off-topic posts in this thread (i.e: all of the exchange between sebastian and superman, the flaming at the beginning, and anything else) and move it to a new thread. Such a move shouldn't be offensive to anyone (posts will not be deleted), and it will make this thread far more readable for those who might be interested in the future (i.e: as it is now, I wouldn't bother suggesting other people, who could contribute positively, read it).

[HistoryofMadness]

They will synthesize explosives and eliminate the competition, of course. Then they will save the world by making new drugs.

Moderators: If you want to make Opiophile a place where real discussion can occur, please take all the off-topic posts in this thread (i.e: all of the exchange between sebastian and superman, the flaming at the beginning, and anything else) and move it to a new thread. Such a move shouldn't be offensive to anyone (posts will not be deleted), and it will make this thread far more readable for those who might be interested in the future (i.e: as it is now, I wouldn't bother suggesting other people, who could contribute positively, read it).

or we can demand that everyone act like adults and stop that shit.

edit - that sounded more harsh than intended. that's a lot of work, especially because many of the 'flame' posts have info too...

[sebastian869]

[quote=robojunkie;85500]Neither you nor I nor anyone need make a frickin write up on a procedure over 100 years old. It's written everywhere, HE wanted someone (or at least I strongly inferred) that he wanted someone to be IMing back and forth with him on this. Bad idea for this forum. Hey if he knew enough he could go over to wd or rhodium/erowid and go from there.

Robo, I have seen all of those sites and a million more, the problem is exactly what you wrote in another thread. One said A the other B one says 160C another 160F. This is why I wanted input from a pro (or someone who fooles me as one). I agree that the technique should be tried on an aprin and I have already started on that process. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Synthesis-of-Aspirin-AP-Kit_W0QQitemZ190054895087QQcmdZViewItem)
More over the problem is that since I'm a novice I'm more concerned of creating a poison end product (not as much of the chems since I'd have small amounts and work outside).
The problem is I have yet to find well written set of directions.
Suchs as http://www.designer-drug.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/rhodiummirror.html which has a lot of H links that no longer work. Also, http://www.heroinhelper.com/curious/chemistry/rhodium.shtml
If someone has a link that works please let me know where I can find it. Also, superman, thanks for the link you did provide.


P.S. Would the morphine have to be converted to morphine hydrochloride or can the process be started as MS?

[stvip]

P.S. Would the morphine have to be converted to morphine hydrochloride or can the process be started as MS?

Why don't you ask that, and all other off topic questions, in a thread where it belongs?

edit - that sounded more harsh than intended. that's a lot of work, especially because many of the 'flame' posts have info too...

No, they don't, not for the topic of this thread. No information will be lost, just moved to a thread where they're relevant.

[nick]

Just where is pro academic arm wrestling relevant?

Sorry bro,but who's to say what has value in this thread?

[robojunkie]

Neither you nor I nor anyone need make a frickin write up on a procedure over 100 years old. It's written everywhere, HE wanted someone (or at least I strongly inferred) that he wanted someone to be IMing back and forth with him on this. Bad idea for this forum. Hey if he knew enough he could go over to wd or rhodium/erowid and go from there.


S, this wasn't directed at you, wasn't trying to fuck with you, etc. it was to SM. And I, to be fair, I did say "inferred"...but let's be honest...

This is why I wanted input from a pro

Hey! I'm no hooker, bro I don't swing that way! haha.

(or someone who fooles me as one). That's only on halloween. Oh wait did you mean chemwise? haha I'll take that as a compliment either way...hell if like someone else said if I was capable of stringing together such an amount of bullshit and half pull it off I could just write good stories. But I'm a sucky creative writer...you be the judge...maybe you can just pour avinzas in vinegar and get h...I'm just kiddin' man. Also, since I have wondered this myself, I have heard the same about MS. Maybe its the resulting equilibrium with AA (or whatever) allowing for sulfuric acid release. This chars organics, especially when concentrated and at high heat. Or this could all be bullshit and I'm really a 50 year old single guy that watches internet porn 6 hours a day and smokes codeine on occasion. I may also have 50 different myspace pages, all with young guys for my pic and all the right lines for the ladies cause I'm so cool online but I suck in real life. Whaddya think? Seriously it wouldn't offend me if you think I'm full of it.

[robojunkie]

stvip,

Sorry but can't quote each point as I'm already starting to lose track of where they go/editting etc.

You're right about the meconate, I was thinking of alkaloid content. Merck says like 4 to 6 % but still enough to cover it anyway. It's another of the reasons for the longer heating as I understand it. This material is decomposed fairly quickly in base/heat. Not the most stable looking structure.

The aspirin/nomenclature thing: It is a transesterification because the "alcohol" is "switching" between the acetyl groups. (The alcohols, phenols really, being M and salicylic acid). It is acid catalyzed, presumably, as most simple transesterifications are and the proton source would be the salicylic acid.

Now this would be a matter of personal experience, I can only account for mine, but pods seem to hit slower and last a lot longer as well. When I was referring to the extraction I maybe should have specific wrt something, ie morphinate salt, in solution "as is". Now, again this is just my hypothetical wandering, but cold or hot, you're still extracting the plant "matrix". I'd be willing to bet meconic acid or not you would still wind up with the M in the tea slurry. I also have very little doubt that cellulose and similar insolubles are "extracted" (not really the correct term I suppose) in tea and I imagine the finer the grounds, the longer the steep, and the higher the temp the more of these insolubles make it into the tea. Imagine having some industrial pulverizing machine and grinding 'em to a dust. You'd probably have nothing to filter at the end...The ammonia thing I have found in an old patent reference, this would tend to back up the peptide hydrolysis idea, IMO. Amide hydrolysis isn't "easy" with hydroxyl bases, requires time and heat and does release ammonia. Also the plant enzymes and proteins (in general, not just somniferum's) are obviously what biosynthesize the alkaloids and also are bound up with them. A good example would be how they can allow something like erot alkaloids to remain stable nearly indefinitely but once separated from their matrix they decompose under a number of common conditions.

Yes I also believe the general idea of the calcium hydroxide is the general trend toward insoluble salts, in addition to pH control that isn't nearly as easy with the carbonates with release co2 under heat giving NaOH, which would be better off not present (though I've seen papers/patents using it and or methoxide base). Calcium will pretty much solvate any relatively acidic OH like phenols and complex just about any alcohol as well.

The thebaine absence thing is speculation on my part as I don't recall them going into it. It is known that acids will open the epoxide and I imagine they are also quite capable of "deprotecting" the 6-MeO group to give the enone (dehydro-hydrocodone, or how bout just codeinone). Didn't they find hydrocodone derivatives in that poppyseedtea kids autopy report and when they replicated the tea with his seeds (some kid made seed tea and died and his mother took the domain name and made an anti-seedtea site with all pdf/gifs/whatevers of autopsy/police/lab reports)? I imagine it could have come from this, since they replicated it (as in he just didn't take hydro, end of story).

Anyhow, I wonder if, following the procedure claiming 67% yield diacetylation, (or any of them) if the high heat would decomp alot of the macromolecular shit and allow for a simple extraction? That's what sucks about JFS is its a bunch of dea chemists who basically run a few reactions, GC/MS everything and report relative amounts but not true "yields" as in how much morphine in the beginning vs. how much products/SMs at the end. I could be remembering this incorrectly but I've noticed this on the few papers from them I can access as they seem to not have online accessability before a few years ago.

Oh yeah just to clarify, when I was referring to "extraction" initially I was essentially talking about the recovery of a single pure compound, ie M. Technically I guess this would be an extraction/purification vs. pod "extraction".

[Opiyum]

Oh how i wish i knew more than dick when it comes to chemistry.

[robojunkie]

haha, how I wish I had more than dick when it comes to H. No drugs equals talk about drugs, no one to talk to about drugs equals the first part and on and on like this thread...

[superman]

Moderators: If you want to make Opiophile a place where real discussion can occur, please take all the off-topic posts in this thread (i.e: all of the exchange between sebastian and superman, the flaming at the beginning, and anything else) and move it to a new thread. Such a move shouldn't be offensive to anyone (posts will not be deleted), and it will make this thread far more readable for those who might be interested in the future (i.e: as it is now, I wouldn't bother suggesting other people, who could contribute positively, read it).

I agree. all of my posting to sebastian was off topic and should be deleted since he's had plenty of opportunity to copy anything relevant from it, and besides, it is common knowledge anyways.

but don't expect it to happen stvip, the mods here seem to have a phobia about deleting bullshit.

perhaps we could get a simple feature added, basicly each and every post should have a button that can be pressed, when for example i press the button, the publicly visible counter, which is the button, goes up by 1. anybody can press the button once.

by pressing the button you are voting to have the post deleted. At least this way it will be obvious to the moderators that they should delete the post...


All I know is we need a system like this, or a more aggressive moderator

[alowishus]

Super, don't get bent outa shape or, upset, but please drop it.

Technical write ups and white papers, are for another forum.
If you want to discuss clinical and lab talk w/ the other chem heads cool, but life is what happens.
I'm not trying to offend you, or goat you or anything, just really sick of the oppressed chem peeps that get no respect, and need a forum of their own that no one else can touch.

If the thread didn't dive straight into, boasting, and fight picking, we wouldn't have to post crap in your guys threads.

And why call out the mods?

[superman]

Super, don't get bent outa shape or, upset, but please drop it.
consider it dropped. the only reason I am mentioning it is because of HOM's poll on off topic posting and stvip's above post.

but that's a great idea about a chem forum. would be nice to have a small chem section where hive-style moderating is the rule.

EDIT:
There's no other place where we can talk about opie chemistry that i know of since the hive went down, and lately there's been a few interesting chem threads that seem to get shit on and then die.

but ya, I mean no offense to the mods... just kind of frustrating trying to talk chem without strict moderation.

[alowishus]

I could SO get behind that, and would be a frequent lurker on the forum. I think it's a good thing.
It could only work, know what I'm saying. :D

[hovadagod]

IS there a verdict on this one?