black cohosh...active mu opioid partial agonist

[jacky]

well, I was researching deep into some cache of scientific data....
and I find another common herbal that is used similiar to chaste tree for womens complaints...and this plant, black cohosh, one of the most prevalent herbals used for treatment of menopausel side effects apears to have some compound or compounds that bind to the mu opioid receptor.

I dont have much info other than the opioid effect is suspected of being the pharamcologically active component of this plant.

now lucky for us opiophiles MAYBE, is that this is a really, really, really common plant, and much like the chaste tree, there are alot of extracts produced of this plant.

so all that remains my freinds, is bioassay, bioassay.

see if the plant reduces withdrawl effects in opioid dependent people,
see if the plant can potentiate other opiates/opioids.

looking into the plants ethnobotanical history, it is a dead ringer for a mu opioid medicinal...diarrhea control, for cough, back pain....damn. I love this world.

even if this plant isnt that strong, this is a very happy find.
the more common plants that have some sort of opioid agonist effect, the less I think the feds can use opioid activity to denote a substance that needs to be controlled.

I love finding opioid active related data out there...but when I find that data on a plant that is readily avialable, and readily avialable as a consumable substance, one that is approved by the FDA as a supplement product, then I get really really interested.

so now the obvious. get my chemist freind to start extraction.....perhaps the actives will be realized quickly by him/me.
see right now I dont think the active have been quantified.
but if I can get him to extract and isolate different compounds, and one or some of the compounds provide an opioid like experience, well then, that is the art of pharmacognosy right there....
it could be a Serturneresque foray,
and opioid exploration...

yes. yes. yes
beautiful flowers.

so that makes at least 2 opioid active flowers out there besides salvia divinorum and papaver somniferum,
black cohosh, and dalea purpurea.

thanks to a cool opiophile I may have enough dalea purpurea wildcrafted this summer to produce a definitive bioassay....and until then I can research this black cohosh.

just thought you people would want to know. especially the gals here at opiophile.
the female opiophiles may have some intimate knowledge of this plant already to share.
anyone?

[Seedy]

Err... nothing to share but sounds very interesting. I can't wait to find out the results!

[OxyContinuously]

well, I was researching deep into some cache of scientific data....
and I find another common herbal that is used similiar to chaste tree for womens complaints...and this plant, black cohosh, one of the most prevalent herbals used for treatment of menopausel side effects apears to have some compound or compounds that bind to the mu opioid receptor.

I dont have much info other than the opioid effect is suspected of being the pharamcologically active component of this plant.

now lucky for us opiophiles MAYBE, is that this is a really, really, really common plant, and much like the chaste tree, there are alot of extracts produced of this plant.

so all that remains my freinds, is bioassay, bioassay.

see if the plant reduces withdrawl effects in opioid dependent people,
see if the plant can potentiate other opiates/opioids.

looking into the plants ethnobotanical history, it is a dead ringer for a mu opioid medicinal...diarrhea control, for cough, back pain....damn. I love this world.

even if this plant isnt that strong, this is a very happy find.
the more common plants that have some sort of opioid agonist effect, the less I think the feds can use opioid activity to denote a substance that needs to be controlled.

I love finding opioid active related data out there...but when I find that data on a plant that is readily avialable, and readily avialable as a consumable substance, one that is approved by the FDA as a supplement product, then I get really really interested.

so now the obvious. get my chemist freind to start extraction.....perhaps the actives will be realized quickly by him/me.
see right now I dont think the active have been quantified.
but if I can get him to extract and isolate different compounds, and one or some of the compounds provide an opioid like experience, well then, that is the art of pharmacognosy right there....
it could be a Serturneresque foray,
and opioid exploration...

yes. yes. yes
beautiful flowers.

so that makes at least 2 opioid active flowers out there besides salvia divinorum and papaver somniferum,
black cohosh, and dalea purpurea.

thanks to a cool opiophile I may have enough dalea purpurea wildcrafted this summer to produce a definitive bioassay....and until then I can research this black cohosh.

just thought you people would want to know. especially the gals here at opiophile.
the female opiophiles may have some intimate knowledge of this plant already to share.
anyone?


Jacky, good find, good find. A couple words of wisdom. I saw that your friend is going to perform an extraction. the easiest and most reliable extraction for plant based chemicals that I know of is the methanol and tetrahydrofuran route. Similar to how you went about the extraction of "Salvinorin A" with acetone, etc. Same concepts, but different chemicals. You *can* use another alcohol besides methanol, but why would you? The more shit you have atttached to it at the beginning, the more shit you haveto remove toward the end.

PM if you have any more questions regarding synth. and all that.


Oxy

[jacky]

yeah, I just pm'd you a minute ago, and then found this post.

looks like this one (b. cohosh) is going to get some attention from the same person that isolated the actives in dalea purpurea and chaste tree.
they are sending me some of the dalea purpurea isolate, which will be interesting to research. I grew the plant out two years ago, and sent him the root material a few months ago. he also grew out alot more dalea than I was able to , and I am sure the bulk of the isolate is from his superior material. the plants I grew were very small and didnt even flower.

the cohosh actives appear to be direct agonists, and not some indirect stimulator of the opioid system. in the data it is stated that cloned human mu opioid receptors were used, and that the actives in the herb were found to bind.

even if this plant is only of use for a withdrawl aid I would be excited.
it would be too much if the compounds most isolated for fortification of cohosh turned out to be the active opioid/s/. if so, some company in china is sitting on tons of it, and the window of legality is going to be "opened" for some time. but I am not holding out for such a thing....could be that the action of cohosh is more complex than just opioid agonist activity.

looking at the ethnobotanical data, a few indigenous groups in north america used the plants roots as a type of tonic. probably the herb tea was consumed by men and women. a tonic effect is a broad term, opioids/opiates are an obvious tonic type of material, a tonic is something that most times is enjoyed on a daily basis, for a broad list of reasons.

I think dalea was used as a tonic as well.

a blend of dalea, cohosh, and chaste tree might be pretty interesting.

I am going to buy some cohosh today...see if it potentiates anything.

[Paregoric Kid]

Mechanism Of Black Cohosh Versus Hot Flashes Revealed
Science Daily — The natural herb black cohosh is commonly used by women to treat menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes, but the molecular mechanisms underlying its action have eluded scientists -- until now.
Researchers at the University of Illinois at Chicago and the National Institutes of Health Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research have discovered that black cohosh may act on human opiate receptors, which play a role in regulating a body's temperature.
Z. Jim Wang, assistant professor of pharmacology and pharmaceutics, led the study, which will be published in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry; the paper is currently available on the journal's web site.
Opiate receptors are chemical sensors that respond to opiates like morphine and endorphins, Wang said. Chemical substances with opiate activity bind to the receptors and produce the appropriate response, including the regulation of pain, temperature and appetite.
"We used several extracts of black cohosh and found that elements of the herb could bind to the human 'mu' opiate receptor," Wang said. "The opiate receptor system affects several aspects of female reproductive neuroendocrinology, such as the levels of sex hormones and neurotransmitters that are important for temperature regulation."
Black cohosh (known as both Actaea racemosa and Cimicifuga racemosa) is a member of the buttercup family. A perennial plant, it is native to North America. It has been used by Native Americans to treat malaise, gynecological disorders, kidney ailments, malaria, rheumatism and sore throat, as well as colds, cough, constipation, hives and backaches, and to induce lactation.
Women experience a variety of symptoms of menopause, but the hot flash is the most common. Although the exact mechanism of the hot flash is unclear, estrogen withdrawal during menopause clearly plays an important role, Wang said. It is assumed that declining estrogen concentrations may change the levels of brain chemicals called neurotransmitters.
As a result, the thermoregulatory center located in the hypothalamus functions irregularly, which leads to inappropriate peripheral vasodilatation that causes hot flashes.
"The hypothalamic thermostat setting can be controlled directly or indirectly by the opiate system," Wang said.
Wang said this is the first time black cohosh has been linked to the activity of the opiate receptors. The ethanol extract used in this study, he said, is currently being used in a phase II clinical trial conducted by researchers from the UIC/NIH Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research.
Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by University of Illinois at Chicago.

[Papa Verine]

I'm right on this one. Black Cohosh is so common. I'll post any news here.

[Paregoric Kid]

be careful using this as a potentiator. if it is a mixed agonist-antagonist there is the chance it could throw you into withdrawal. "The action of BCE was best characterized as a mixed agonist at hMOR."
P-084: BLACK COHOSH EXTRACTS ACTIVATE HUMAN OPIATE RECEPTORS: IMPLICATION FOR ITS USE IN THE TREATMENT OF MENOPAUSAL SYMPTOMS Donna E. Webster2, Mee-ra Rhyu2, Jian Lu1, Daniel Fabricant2, Norman R. Farnsworth2, and Z. Jim Wang1,2 1Department of Biopharmaceutical Science and 2UIC/NIH Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research, Program for Collaborative Research in the Pharmaceutical Sciences,College of Pharmacy, University of Illinois, Chicago, IL 60612, USA Cimicifuga racemosa (L.) Nutt., or Actaea racemosa L. (Ranunculaceae), commonly known asblack cohosh, is widely used for the treatment of climacteric complaints. Its mechanisms of action are poorly understood. In this study, we investigated potential CNS mechanisms by examining the ability of several black cohosh extracts (BCE) in binding to and activating human opioid mu(hMOR) and delta (hDOR) receptors. Methanolic (100%)-, ethanolic (75%)- and 2-propanolic (40%) BCE were used. The ethanolic extract (300 µg/ml) produced 77±4% displacement of [3H]DAMGO binding to CHO-hMOR with a Ki value of 63 µg/ml. Methanolic and 2-propanolic BCE showed comparable affinity to hMOR. Furthermore, we found that the ethanolic extract activated hMOR in the GTP S functional assay EC50of 66 µg/ml and Emax 155±4%. The action of BCE was best characterized as a mixed agonist at hMOR. Similar, but weaker activity was observed for these extracts at the hDOR. These results demonstrate for the first time that blackcohosh extracts contain active principles that bind to opiate receptors and activate these receptors, supporting its use for the treatment of menopausal symptoms.

also check out Rhyu M, Lu J, Webster DE, Fabricant DS, Farnsworth NR, Wang ZJ, Black cohosh (Actaea racemosa, Cimicifuga racemosa) behaves as a mixed competitive ligand and partial agonist at the human mu opiate receptor. J Agr Food Chem (in press).

[jacky]

thanks PK that is a good observation, and I will tread lightly.

I imagine that if there were any contraindications of consuming black cohosh with opiates that we might have heard about it by now, but then maybe there are not too many older opiate addict women that take the two together.

[Paregoric Kid]

or taking them in doses large enough to cause precipitated withdrawal. also depends on it's affinity, etc.

[morphiquet]

hi, perfect location for my first post as i feel exactly like jacky in researching opioid sources :)

i got some indications for the fact that the opioid active compounds in black kohosh bare the structure of cinnamoyl quinides. there are numerous such derivatives in black kohosh.
cinnamoyl quinides were also identified in coffee and proved to act as µ-antagonists ( you know, morning ablutions after breakfast ;) ). now we know, that agonist / antagonists often look quite similar. that's the reason why i hold that notion.

the bad news is, if i'm right, b. k. wouldn't be active, as such quinides very unlikely ever arrive the brain.

for those, who need sources: pubmed :)

[Euphoricgirl]

Hey, here we go. A subject that I have experience in and maybe can shed alittle light! I just so happen to be a 39 year old female who had a hyster. almost 5 years ago and have the beautiful full blown menopause. I have done much research on black cohosh and have tried many brands. I indeed believe that it does bind to the human mu opiate receptor. As far as helping with the hot flashes in women and such I do find it to do much of anything.

Women must tread lightly on this herb though for they have linked it to women who have breast cancer knowing or not knowing that are taking black cohosh to make the cancer spread faster through out the body, so for all you women that should be known. It does help with withdrawals though and I find it if it is taken in low does it somewhat works more as a potentiator and in larger doses it acts more like a sedative, so tread lightly.




I also believe in one of the posts above someone mentions that it may restrict opiate receptors, which I find is not the case. HOPE is was of some help on this one. I can shed more knowledge of the effects on myself if anyone is interested.




This was written just last month by Science daily.


"Wang said this is the first time black cohosh has been linked to the activity of the opiate receptors. The ethanol extract used in this study, he said, is currently being used in a phase II clinical trial conducted by researchers from the UIC/NIH Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research."

[I-Nod]

I have done much research on black cohosh and have tried many brands.

Do you have a favorite brand? Are they capsuled? I seen some at the local herbal shop and opted not to get them becuz of past experiences. The products dont seem to turn-over very quickly at these local shops and after some time, a lot of herbs lose potency. Thanks in advance Euphoricgirl!

[Euphoricgirl]

I was going through herbalextractsplus.com. They are wonderful and offer quite a few different selections. The ones you find at Walmart etc, the NOW brand and so on, aren't worth diddly. Or..if you can find the brand soloray. Herbalextracts offers a combo of the black coshosh that seems more potent then your average health food stores.

[jacky]

so these antagonist compounds in coffee that dont really make it into the brain might be responsible for the bowel loosening effects that coffee can have, but still wouldnt precipitate withdrawl in an opiate addict perhaps.

my interest in these areas isnt limited to only mu active bbb crossing compounds, I am interested in anything indirectly opioid/opiate, anything antagonist/agonist, anything really. down to the morphine content of toad skins that lay smashed on the road.

[superman]

CAREFULL THERE GUYS!!!!!!!

not sure if this was mentioned but black cohosh has actives that bind to estrogen receptors.

I don't think anyone here wants to increase thier cancer risk or grow some breasts.....

EDIT:
so these antagonist compounds in coffee that dont really make it into the brain might be responsible for the bowel loosening effects that coffee can have, but still wouldnt precipitate withdrawl in an opiate addict perhaps.

coffee makes me feel more shitty when i am in withdrawal, but from what i've read the laxative effect is mainly due to drinking hot liquids, and the caffiene acts like other stimulant-laxatives

[jacky]

when the active is known, then maybe it can be isolated, unless it is some complicated indirect activity.

[Papa Verine]

I just bought a bottle of an ethanol based Black Cohosh extract. I don't want the alcohol so I'm letting it evaporate. I'll eat whatever's left and report back any noticeable effects I get. I haven't used opiates since that big bag of Heroin I snorted a couple weeks ago. I have no habit, not in withdrawls or anything. If there's any effect and the extract I bought is any good I should notice something. I'll be back...

[Papa Verine]

I just bought a bottle of an ethanol based Black Cohosh extract. I don't want the alcohol so I'm letting it evaporate. I'll eat whatever's left and report back any noticeable effects I get. I haven't used opiates since that big bag of Heroin I snorted a couple weeks ago. I have no habit, not in withdrawls or anything. If there's any effect and the extract I bought is any good I should notice something. I'll be back...

I consumed the contents of my "tincture" bottle after evaporating the alcohol out. Thirty minutes ago. Minor opiate-like effects. Somebody else out there has to try this too so I know I'm not just crazy. I usually am not succeptable to "Placebo effect". I really think I'm feeling a light opiate buzz. Maybe comparable to 10mg hydrocodone for me, which is why I'm not all that sure because 10mg of hydrocodone would be difficult for me to feel.

Whoever reads this... try it and let me know if you feel it too. The particular brand I took is Quantum herbal products. 1 fluid ounce "mother tincture" Black Cohosh root.

Now if only I'd a bought 6 bottles of the stuff... I'd have a better experience report.

[Euphoricgirl]

Found this article if it helps anyone:

12/11/2006 - Scientists from the University of Illinois in Chicago have reported for the first time just how black cohosh may alleviate hot flushes in menopausal women - information previously lacking about the herb.

Black cohosh (javascript:KeywordSearch('KEYWORDS=black cohosh&period=all&inner=1');) (referred to by the European Medicines Agency, or EMEA, as Cimicifugae racemosae rhizome) is a member of the buttercup family, and is a perennial plant native to North America. It has a long history of use for by women to reduce menopausal symptoms such as hot flushes (javascript:KeywordSearch('KEYWORDS=hot+flushes&period=all&inner=1');).

Historically it has been a popular alternative to hormone replacement therapy (HRT) in many countries including the UK, where it is estimated that 9 million days worth of black cohosh supplements were purchased in 2004.
Despite this popularity, how exactly the herb could benefit women with hot flushes has eluded clarification until now. The new research, from scientists at the University of Illinois in Chicago and the National Institutes of Health (UIC/NIH) Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research, reports that the herb may act on human opiate receptors which play a role in body temperature regulation.
Opiate receptors are chemical sensors that are associated with activation by opiates like morphine and heroin. However, other chemical substances may also bind to the opiate receptors and activate the appropriate response including pain control, an immune response, or other body functions including core temperature regulation.
The new study used an ethanol extract of black cohosh and found that constituent(s) of the herb could bind to the human mu-opiate receptor (hMOR) associated with mood, body temperature and sex hormone levels.
"The opiate receptor system affects several aspects of female reproductive neuroendocrinology, such as the control of sex hormones," wrote lead author Mee-Ra Rhyu.
Hot flushes are suggested to be the result of flawed body core temperature settings, controlled by the central nervous system (CNS), which in turn is regulated by the opiate system, said the researchers.
"Opiates can therefore alter core temperature setting directly or indirectly," they said. "Striking similarities exist between opiate withdrawal and menopausal hot flushes.”</I>
This is the first time that scientists have linked constituents of black cohosh to human opiate receptors.
Significantly, the extract used in this in vitro study is the same that is being used in a phase II clinical trial currently underway and being conducted by researchers from the UIC/NIH Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research.
“Therefore, botanical dietary supplements containing opiate activity are expected to have beneficial effects in relieving menopausal symptoms, including hot flushes,” concluded the researchers.
“The opiate agonistic activity of black cohosh may explain at least in part its efficacy in alleviating menopausal symptoms.”
The research may be good news for the herbal industry, but this year black cohosh has been in the news for new labelling requirements in some markets.
Fears over a rare causal link between black cohosh and liver damage have this year led to Australia's Therapeutics Goods Administration and the UK's Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency to require warning statements to appear on product packaging, and the European Medicines Agency and Health Canada to issue public safety statements.
The mechanism behind these potential problems has not been elucidated however and a recent court case in the US (Grant and Beck v Pharmavite and Nutraceutical Corp) ruled that research has consistently held that black cohosh is non-hepatoxic. According to the American Herbal Products Association's (AHPA) most recent Tonnage Survey of Select North American Wild-Harvested Plants, the herb was the second most harvested plant, with 159 tons from wild sources and 0.2 tons from cultivated sources

[OxyContinuously]

that IS interesting, regarding black cohosh, PapaV

10mg of hydro you say? That's crazy bc i really didn't expect it to have results that could be quantitated. That is a definite surprise, and i will have to go after a bottle.

later


Oxy

[Euphoricgirl]

It really works oxy, have not tried what Papa Used though....as I start running to my truck to go find that darn tincture. :-)

[HistoryofMadness]

Is this material something you get at a local market? Or is it one of the more 'rare' herbs you have to order online?

[OxyContinuously]

It really works oxy, have not tried what Papa Used though....as I start running to my truck to go find that darn tincture. :-)


that is very good to know. I *had* heard of it prior to reading this thread, but had no experience w it, one way or another.

glad it worked 4 u, Euphoricgirl, and thanx for the tip

:-)

Oxy

[Papa Verine]

Don't make any judgements on the activity of it until some others try it. Like I said, it would be difficult for me to feel 10mg of hydro. I was comparing the 2 baased on my tolerance.

Last night I consumed the entire bottle of an encapsulated Black Cohosh extract I bought at CVS with no noticeable effect. We ned more experiences. Right now I don't know what to think about it's potential activity.

It's also real possible the stuff I bought at CVS is GARBAGE. Nature's Pathways 40mg. I bought the tincture from an herbalist. It was an ethanol based tincture.

The inside of the capsules I bought at CVS was what appeared to be a greenish plant matter in Soybean oil. The plant matter had seperated from the oil and who knows whether the actives I'm interested in would more likely be in the oil or the "snot" looking stuff.

Anyway, I won't fuck with that crap anymore. I do plan to get some more from the herbalist and try a larger dose. I'll let you all know.

[Euphoricgirl]

Thanks Papa. I just went out and bought the Black Cohosh from a herb store and its from Natures Apothecary. It is the liquid extract from Fresh Herbs. It is just pure black cohosh and pure grain alcohol. How did you extract the alcohol from yours? As you all know I am withdrawing now, so I should notice any effects that it has on me. Gonna give it a go around here. How much did you try with the tincture Papa? This bottle is 30ml. Will try it out and give back on the update later. I also tried the capsules and it gave alittle buzz but nothing to speak about.

[Papa Verine]

Thanks Papa. I just went out and bought the Black Cohosh from a herb store and its from Natures Apothecary. It is the liquid extract from Fresh Herbs. It is just pure black cohosh and pure grain alcohol. How did you extract the alcohol from yours? As you all know I am withdrawing now, so I should notice any effects that it has on me. Gonna give it a go around here. How much did you try with the tincture Papa? This bottle is 30ml. Will try it out and give back on the update later. I also tried the capsules and it gave alittle buzz but nothing to speak about.





I wouldn't suggest doing what I would do. I would buy maybe 3 bottles. The alcohol will evaporate pretty fast if you pour the liquid into a shallow dish and apply some heat. Eat it all at once and see if it helps. That's what I'd do. I hope it helps your W/D's!!!!

[Euphoricgirl]

Thanks. Your the best....Miss you already.

[Papa Verine]

I'll still be here in the "Opioids in Nature" forum. It is my true love. (Nature that is...)

When I was young, I had an uncle who knew everything about the local plants/animals wherever we went. I traveled with him from Oregon to Illinois to Pennsylvania learning about what natural wildlife can offer us medicinally. This guy had me eating Royal Jelly we got from an actual bee-hive when I was 9 years old for allergies. I was amazed by what he knew about the plants we trampled over playing as a youngster. He made me concoctions that cured whatever ailed me from what was growing nearby. He's still alive and lives in Western Pennsylvania today. I still spend time with him but he's becoming disorientated in his old age. He took to exotic orchids in his later years and that's what he focusses on today. I went a different way and am interested in local medicinal plants.

I am now working with some local herbalists and continue to experiment with the local herbs. Whatever the midwest has to offer. I have been PERSONALLY exposed to many poisons such as Cyanic glycosides, Tropane alkaloids, Cicutoxin from Water Hemlock, Coniine, Ricin, Ergot... you name it! I am my own guinnea pig as far as flora goes and I've learned the hard way what not to fuck with. My organs have survived and I think they're pretty tough!!! I hope to someday be an experienced herbalist people will trust with questions and such. The one thing I cannot afford to be is a junky and from now on I'm staying away from semi-snythetic opiate pharmaceuticals. My new herbalist freind is making me an extract of Dalea Purpurea flowers and root. I'll be making my own come this summer. I also belieive I can turn the piperidine toxins from Poison Hemlock to active opioids but that's for another time. I have my work cut out for me that's for sure and I'll keep posting here.

Hey, EuphoricGirl, watch out for Black Cohosh in large doses. I'm suspecting some liver toxicity based on my body's reaction to it.

More to come...

[Ragdoll]

Wow. I wish I would've noticed this thread before tonight.

I used black cohosh (made a tea of it) years ago. I read that it could help bring on a late period; that was why I used it. At the time, I was also taking an antidepressant (ssri) and probably some sort of benzo(s); I don't remember exactly. So it's possible that the effect I had form the black cohosh had something to do with a chemical interaction; I don't know.

A few minutes after I drank the tea (a mugful), I strated laughing uncontrollably. I mean...it sounds funny, but it wasn't funny at all - it was horrible. I could not stand up; I was on the floor, laughing, totally out of control. I was in pain from laughing so hard, but I couldn't stop. There was nothing in my mind that was making me laugh; it was more like a neurological mishap or something...reminded me of a seizure, but a laughing seizure. The laughing lasted for over ten minutes before it disappeared, then I felt normal.

The whole episode scared the crap out of me 'cause it was so freaky.

So I'm not sure what to think, or if I would try it again.

[euphoria2002]

Has anybody tried this stuff and gotten some definite effects? Either alone or in combination with any other opiates?

If so, I am curious to know what would be considered an effective dosage. Will be heading off to do my own "field research" on this.

BTW..... 100% total props to Jacky for bringing this subject up in the first place!!!!!

[euphoria2002]

Ok, I tried something last month that worked EXTREMELY well and this seems like a good place to share it.

I was experimenting with my last batch of pod tea. The main idea was to try and improve the taste. I've tried some different spices, sugar, even vitamin C tabs.... anything to try and help with the taste!

So anyways, I got the idea to use citric acid crystals to acidify the mixture. They use it in all kinds of fruit drinks and pop so I figured it might be worth a try. I also put in some kind of mint leaves and a whole bunch of dried eucalyptus leaves (ground to a fine powder and mixed in).

For some reason, that last batch of tea hit me pretty hard. The powder/grounds were from the same batch I'd prepared for my last 2 teas and I used the exact same amount.... so the only variables I can think of were the other ingredients.

2 things I can think of.... could the eucalyptus/mint somehow increase the uptake of alkaloids? Also the citric acid, could it combine with the alkaloids to make morphine citrate? There was some serious potentiation going on!

[jacky]

mint is a mild stimulant, so is the eculyptas I think, and menthol is a mild kappa opioid agonist. so maybe there is some synergy.....
vitamin c maybe made the opiates go through your system quicker?

I dont know, those are just guesses.

the other week I consumed a good amount of ginger powder at night in a coconut slurry drink and took a little nigella sativa oil and I was messed up pretty good. I had taken just my normal dose of kratom and opiates, so perhaps there was some potentiation there?

[euphoria2002]

Jacky, I'm interested in that nigella sativa oil you've been talking about. Can you give any pointers on where to get some?

Euphoria

[jacky]

phytoextractum.com carries the oil of the pressed seed, and also thymoquinone, which is a compound found in nigella sative seed oil that is suspected of creating opioid activity directly/indirectly.

[euphoria2002]

Ahhhh, phytoextractum.com ...... is there anything they can't do? (to paraphrase Homer Simpson)

Euph

[euphoria2002]

Jacky,

Dude, I bought some Nigella seeds at a local specialty shop. I got a paper bag filled will probably a couple of ounces. I ckecked online, these are nigella sativa seeds.

Any comments on how best to make use of these? I was thinking of crushing/powderizing them and take with some grapefruit juice before using some opiates.

Thanks for any info,

Euphoria

[euphoria2002]

Here's some interesting info about Nigella Sativa.....

Preliminary clinical trials indicate its possible therapeutic use
in some conditions of cough and bronchial asthma. The alcoholic
extract of the seeds is reported to prevent dental caries. It contains
nourishing amino acids such as cysteine, lysine, valine and leucine.
The seed oil showed antibacterial, insecticidal, bronchiodilatory,
hypotensive, and immunostimulant activities. The seed contains saponins
which have good cleansing properties. The oil also exhibited CNS
depressant and potent analgesic effects on experimental animals.

Hmmmm, CNS depression and analgesia. That sounds kind of familiar.
Interesting don't you think?

Euphoria

[Narkotikon]

Very interesting Jacky. I'm going to have to go to a health food store tomorrow and see if I can find any of this stuff. Great job!

[jacky]

I have some 98% pure thymoquinone from nigella sativa, and have toyed around with the thought of vaporizing that material, insuffilation, or perhaps IV.

still havnt gotten around to trying any black cohosh, hopefully the active component will be realized
soon and maybe some custom extracts will surface that isolate the active opioids.

wishful thinking, but for such a common herb I would think that pure isolates would be tolerated in most countries.

[euphoria2002]

Results:

Last night I tried the following. Ground up about 3 tablespoons of N Sativa seeds in the coffee grinder. The resulting product was kind of mushy due to the oil present in the seeds. I scooped the mush into a glass and added hot water and some bacardi 151. Stirred the mix and waited for about 5 mins. While I was waiting, I had one small glass of GF juice.

At this time (10 mins later) a yellowy brown liquid layer started accumulating at the top. I slurped this layer off.... it looks like motor oil and tastes about the same. 10 mins later I took 40 mg of OC and waited.

All I can say is "wow". Somehow that Oxy kicked in hard. My usually dose is 60 mgs, and this 40 was hitting even harder than that. Next week, I'm going to repeat the whole procedure and see if I get the same results just to make sure this wasn't some kind of fluke.

Euphoria2002

ps. it wasn't the 151 causing the extra effect, because I just drank the top oily layer and poured the rest down the drain. (what a waste.... I know!)

[mrklean]

I can say with a bit of confidence you definately do not want to attempt to vaporize the thymoquinone isolate. I tried this with the stuff from phyto and it was very unpleasant. Not only did I not notice any effects but the vapor was wicked. Inhaling that shit was gnarly and somewhat painful even. You really dont wanna try inhaling or sniffing it either i'd guess. I am gonna go ahead and smallow the last maybe 40mgs? I have left of the stuff and will report back anything of significance. I have no real tolerance to any opiates currently and I am not trying to potentiate anything. If I notice any effects at all I will be pleasantly surprised.

[kingdxm]

I recently started a post about GABA-A antagonists and I noticed the discussion of nigella sativa. Thymoquinone is what I believe to be a GABA-A antagonist.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/10/623768/kingdxm%20pictures/thymoquinone.jpg
Thymoquinone

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/10/623768/kingdxm%20pictures/thujone.gif
thujone

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/10/623768/kingdxm%20pictures/menthol.gif

All of these compounds have been talked about as having opioid activity, and as you can see they are VERY similar. It is a good guess that they all work identically.

[jacky]

that would be very interesting if thymo. did turn out to be a gaba interactive material.
also thought it was interesting that menthol is a kappa opioid agonist.

thanks for the word on vaporizing thymoquinone. I cannot tolerate many resins vaporized lately it seems. I have tried many of mjb botanicals smoking blends, and while I know there are many active and novel ingredients to these smoking blends, I cannot stand to smoke them anymore as they can give me asthma like conditions and make it real hard for me to sleep.

oral administration sounds like the best route, maybe mixed with a little ethanol and insuffilated perhaps.

[mrklean]

The about 40mg of the thymoquinone isolate I used the other day didn't provide any effect I couldn't call placebo. It may have subtly helped bring me out of a minor funk and maybe was slightly sedating but nothing concrete was experienced. But I definately feel that it has the potential to potentiate. I used it maybe a month ago when I had a pretty hefty kratom habit going on. I was doing about a 1/2lb of that top quality thai red and green deveined, a week. That became expensive to maintain. But the last dose I got any real enjoyment out of was definately potentiated by maybe 20mg of the thymoquinone taken orally. I had little to no discomfort getting off of this amount of daily kratom. Smoking blue lotus resin was probably a real help in avoiding any w/d symptoms, blue lotus is some really great stuff. That whole Kratom binge was far and away my most succesful "relapse" ever. The whole experience which lasted maybe 2months was, apart, from financial consequences "very nice" . I would like to thank everyone who posts to this forum for their contributions. All the posts regarding potentiation, and alternative herbs were invaluable in assisting me in my endeavor. If it weren't for this community what cost me a few grand to pay for kratom and other herbals , would most likely have cost me alot more alot quicker in the form of a hard dope run. Lets keep this thing going! My next run (and I hope yours) will be faster, cheaper, longer, safer, and most importantly more euphoric.

[euphoria2002]

You all might find that the thymoquinone extract dosn't have the same effect as the whole seed material. This has been the case in numerous other instances.... think marinol/THC vs cannabis, or Kratom extract vs. whole plant/leaf material.

Who knows for sure what other potentially active compounds might be contained in the seed or the oil? Also, why waste $$$ on extracts when you can buy the whole seeds for cheap and run them through a coffeee grinder. The resulting product is easy to add to whatever you want to take and you're guaranteed to get whatever possible potentiation there might be.

Euphoria

[jacky]

the seeds are relatively unexpensive.....
I would rather just consume the oil personally.
but both raw products are preferable to just an isolate I am sure. seems that way with almost any plant derived psychoactive.

havnt had any nigella oil for a few weeks.
would have been nice to have taken it on my trip when I was out of M containing materials for 4 days.

just google the plant product and see all the interesting info that comes up, lots of research on this plant out there.

[Paregoric Kid]

raw products are preferable to just an isolate I am sure. seems that way with almost any plant derived psychoactive.
I don't know about that Jacky, I bet a lot of people on this forum would prefer morphine to opium.

[jacky]

well, maybe so, I mean it is a no brainer to want pure compounds.....but I find opium stronger than just pure morphine, stronger in effect, and not weight potency, morphine seems to last longer I think as well when it is taken with the other opium alkaloids. perhaps the small amounts of antagonists actually potentiate the active opiates? maybe antagonist opioid effect is why commercial kratom seems stronger than isolated 7 hydroxy/and mitragynine? there are a few known opioid antagonists in kratom, maybe they are dropped out of even simple aquaeous/ethanol kratom extracts?.

when I buy herb products like tetradydropalmatine and compare to full spectrum or 5x type of corydalis extracts, I find the THP to be less potent in total effects....
same goes with pure matrine, there seemed to be more activity when I consumed the same amount of matrine in a 5x extract than just the same amount of pure matrine powder...
but there are alot of other alkaloids in those plants than just the isolates I consumed.

another example is dan shen.
I tried alot of one of the most active compounds in dan shen, miltirone, and it didnt hold a hat to the 5x extract of dan shen. maybe all those other compounds make a difference.

but yeah, most people just want the pure compound, I just dont think that pure compounds are the best way to approach herbal therapys...maybe to standardize a certian component, and guarantee content of a certian isolate, to compound a material sure.

I know it goes both ways....like chaste tree for example. the purified alkaloid of the berry can give a strong effect when vaporized, it can be a good rush, but in any other form it is hard to get enough in you at once to experience that effect. that is mainly I think because it is a short acting compound it seems, similiar to salvinorin a, in ten minutes it is almost over. the diterpene compounds in chaste tree are similiar in activity when vaporized, maybe a little longer, but are not nearly as psychoactive.
the utility of the pure compound is apparent there...
but take even the whole berry in a big enough dose and you will get a longer lasting effect than by vaporizing the pure isolates.

in these situations, I say take it everyway possible, and let the liver sort it out.

I remember some information regarding a patented drug delivery system....it is based on the idea that some essential oils increase the bioavialability of certian opiates/psychoactives....what if myrrh oil could be used with morphine to increase its bioavialability? or what if nigella sativa oil is needed with thymoquinone to make it stronger? or perhaps the menthol oil might be a good additive to certian pure compound opiates?