lower tolerance

[jerets]

Hello all,
I have been taking 15-20mg of hydrocodone daily with ginkgo biloba and magnesium suppliments to help keep my tolerance down. 15mg of Hydrocodone used to do it for me for months. Now 20mg is started to not do as much as 15mg used to. I have been using this daily for maybe 6 months now. Once and a while I'll take half a soma to try and keep from using a higher dosage of hydro. What should I do to lower my tolerance? I haven't been as good lately with taking my magnesium b/c I was running out -- I would take only 500mg (instead of the recommend 750mg) and sometimes not take it at all. I also was doing 5-10mg of oxy nasal with a small dosage of hydro a few times last week. I am started to get concerned. Should I take a few days off? For some reason (with the level I'm doing) I do not get w/d's if I break. So what do you think? How many days off would I need? I am going back to using the magnesium correctly starting today and I'll see if that starts to make a difference for me. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks

[nick]

look man,you aren't going to like this,but it sounds like you'll soon have a habit.So you should consider just stopping and not worrying about your tolerence and getting high.

[AWOL]

What should I do to lower my tolerance?

You should stop while you're ahead.


I am started to get concerned.

If you're concerned at 15-20mg's hydro, now is a good time to do something about it. I mean this sincerely, but do yourself a favor and stop now. Best of luck.

[stvip]

There are several other interventions that are known to inhibit, and even reverese, tolerance and dependence in preclinical models. I intend to make a new thread soon about some of those. But you should notice that those studies are very limited, and it is problematic extrapolating the results, much more so to human real-life situations. It may not be possible to use a classical opioid daily without eventually developing tolerance and dependence, proceed with your current regime at your own risk.
Also, taking daily 0.75 grams doses of Mg seems excessive (i.e: unsafe), especially considering the fact that it probably is a relatively minor aid, if at all.

[devilsdrug]

nick and dv said same as i wood except ill add if u dont ,just suck it up for the long haul and no whinin

[jerets]

Why do you all act like I should quit now or my life will end? It is not dangerous to take pain medication daily. People with chronic pain take pain medication their entire life without serious problems. 15-20mg isn't a lot of hydrocodone -- we are talking 1.5-2 lortabs per day. If I am misreading you, then you all must be recommending that I take some days off hydro to lower my tolerance back to where I prefer? I am not whinning about anything... I am just asking on advice as to lowering my tolerance back to where it was before. If that means taking a week or so off, then just advise me so and I will?
Thanks
jerets

[covv799ss]

Hello all,
I have been taking 15-20mg of hydrocodone daily with ginkgo biloba and magnesium suppliments to help keep my tolerance down. 15mg of Hydrocodone used to do it for me for months. Now 20mg is started to not do as much as 15mg used to. I have been using this daily for maybe 6 months now. Once and a while I'll take half a soma to try and keep from using a higher dosage of hydro. What should I do to lower my tolerance? I haven't been as good lately with taking my magnesium b/c I was running out -- I would take only 500mg (instead of the recommend 750mg) and sometimes not take it at all. I also was doing 5-10mg of oxy nasal with a small dosage of hydro a few times last week. I am started to get concerned. Should I take a few days off? For some reason (with the level I'm doing) I do not get w/d's if I break. So what do you think? How many days off would I need? I am going back to using the magnesium correctly starting today and I'll see if that starts to make a difference for me. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks


Why do you all act like I should quit now or my life will end? It is not dangerous to take pain medication daily. People with chronic pain take pain medication their entire life without serious problems. 15-20mg isn't a lot of hydrocodone -- we are talking 1.5-2 lortabs per day. If I am misreading you, then you all must be recommending that I take some days off hydro to lower my tolerance back to where I prefer? I am not whinning about anything... I am just asking on advice as to lowering my tolerance back to where it was before. If that means taking a week or so off, then just advise me so and I will?
Thanks
jerets

I don't think they were acting like your life would end. A lot of the people here have really huge habits so they find it a silly thing to ask-- how to keep a tolerance extremely low so you can resume daily use with no complications. It's something everyone here wants, it's just not attainable.

As for myself, I have not encountered any brush with addiction-- just 3 sleepless, foodless, panic-ridden nights after a month-long lortab binge. It felt like I was literally going insane! And that is like heaven compared to a lot of the stories I've heard here. After that I decided I would never indulge for more than 2 weeks at a time, so I've been on a 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off kind of deal. I've found that my tolerance doesn't go down substantially at all after 2 weeks...the first time I get back on I'll feel pretty good from a relatively low dose and the next day it's where it was before.

So I'm assuming when everyone says that the best way to avoid tolerance is to not use they are not trying to be condescending, merely telling you the truth.

[jerets]

So I'm assuming when everyone says that the best way to avoid tolerance is to not use they are not trying to be condescending, merely telling you the truth.

I understand. I also however have chronic pain in my back from a car accident. I have successfully managed basically the same daily dosage for about 6 months though. I was just curious roughly how long it took the brain to detox itself from the chemical and decrease ones tolerance. I am not trying to avoid a dependancy or avoid a tolerance, just to keep it at bay and take the necessary breaks required. Any information on the number of days necessary to stay off -- did you say one week? -- would help.
Thanks all
jerets

[tptptp]

I understand. I also however have chronic pain in my back from a car accident. I have successfully managed basically the same daily dosage for about 6 months though. I was just curious roughly how long it took the brain to detox itself from the chemical and decrease ones tolerance. I am not trying to avoid a dependancy or avoid a tolerance, just to keep it at bay and take the necessary breaks required. Any information on the number of days necessary to stay off -- did you say one week? -- would help.
Thanks all
jerets

Heres how it works - you build up a tolerance to meds that never completely goes away....if you stay off for a full month you should get smashed just like the first time you took it but after a couple days of consistent use it goes right back to where you left off. You cant completely restart the cycle. If you use once or twice a week you should be able to keep the tolerance pretty low.....there is no other way until scientists find one...whjich they probably someday will....
Sure many people live their life on pain meds
1)They dont get as much euphoria because it is actually working on the pain
2)They have a PRESCRIPTION and some strong medical evidence to get the meds. Unless you have records to back up your pain as in actual damage done to your body, you are going to be an exception to the rule to get meds for very long....


getting them illegally is a whole new ball game and people are just trying to help by telling you to get out, they know 99.9% wont listen anyhow but so many people progress right on through to the hard stuff and seem at best to become ocassional users after years of constant struggle....hydrocodone may seem innocent enough, thenit stops working the same, so you go to percocet, then oxy then heroin etc.
Of course no one thinks they'll do that, but many, many of those that never would, do.

If you want an idea of why they are telling you to get out, stop taking the hydro and you can get a millionth of a percent of what a bad withdrawal feels like. 15mg Hydro is nothing really(I'd bet NONE of the regulars would get high off of even 150mg of hydro, what they are saying comes from experience, can you afford 150mg hydro/day?, can you afford to stay home from work cuz you dont have it and lose even more money?), but if you want to stop to lower your tolerance drop a little bit every few days until you're off.
If thats a mental struggle for you...imagine it being a hell of alot worse cuz thats where it goes.

Everyone here loves opiates people are just trying to help you out because of the illegality of the drug
it can be a very hard, expensive life....if it were legal and everyone could walk into the store and buy opium covered candy bars for a couple bucks and wean themselves off if they for some reason had to come off no one would be telling you to quit.
If you have a healthy body opiates in safe doses arent gonna hurt you (though the apap in hydros may!), its certainly not cocaine

And to answer your last Q if you come completely off and detoxed, you can use about 2 days a week.(7 day period)
Start pushing that and its game over for not being addicted

[jerets]

I do have a valid prescription for them. I am prescribed them daily but I don't necessarily need them that often and I only ever do 10mg of oxy from time to time. I am not experiencing as much euphoria as late. I don't care about being addicted or having a tolerance -- I dont mind forgoing some of the euphoria, just being able to use as often as possible while getting most of the effects w/o increasing dosage or moving on to something harder. I will try and take a week off and then only take them a few times a week. Do you think this will help? Any further advise is appreciated.
Thank you so much,
jerets

[satori]

I do have a valid prescription for them. I am prescribed them daily but I don't necessarily need them that often and I only ever do 10mg of oxy from time to time. I am not experiencing as much euphoria as late. I don't care about being addicted or having a tolerance -- I dont mind forgoing some of the euphoria, just being able to use as often as possible while getting most of the effects w/o increasing dosage or moving on to something harder. I will try and take a week off and then only take them a few times a week. Do you think this will help? Any further advise is appreciated.
Thank you so much,
jerets


The fact your trying to lower your tollerence so you still feel the drug like you did before is evidence not that your going to become addicted but that you are already addicted. Very mild to be certain but addicted none the less. If you were talking about pain control it would not matter what dose you were usng as ong as the pain was being treated and no adverse affects. Thats not what your asking. If you asked "how can i more effectively treat my back pain with less medication" that would be a different thing all together. What i beleive most people are saying is your not in deep right now at all. You could walk away and maybe have some wd's mostly psychological for a bit but nothing like people who are using 4 bags a day.

I have managed to stay on a relatively low dose of opiates but it isnt easy. If you want to stay at lower levels you are going to always have to take breaks and experience the wd's or torture of slowly lowering dose so your body adjusts to 10% of the original dose then bumping it back up to what you want it to be. To be honest it gets very tiresome. It used to be 20 vicodin would last me a couple weeks. Now im lucky if it lasts 5 days and for a lot of people 20 wont even give them any euphoric feeling whatsoever.

If you want to keep using them for euphoric purposes, the drug effect instead of the pain killing effect i mean then it will be hard to keep tollerence for hydro below 20mg a day for much longer. I always end up stoping for atleast two weeks to lower tollerance a bit. But tose two weeks are fucking hell and the world really really sucks. Right now i have hydro, codeisan so im good. But in a week or so im going to be screwed again. I know this but i chose to do it anyways because those weeks on make up for the weeks off.

I to asked questions JUST like these maybe 2-3 years ago. I asked if i could stop taking my 10mg percocet 's every other week to some how keep tollerence low. I got the same response you have been getting. At the time i was offended, they didnt knwo me or why i used it. i wasnt addicted or going to be. Hell i even thought i wasnt addicted as early as a year ago and during that time i might not have been. It seems to be an ebb and flow where the past 6 months have just been a big flow. But the overall trend your talking about is addiction. The question is can you maintain it?

[tptptp]

I do have a valid prescription for them. I am prescribed them daily but I don't necessarily need them that often and I only ever do 10mg of oxy from time to time. I am not experiencing as much euphoria as late. I don't care about being addicted or having a tolerance -- I dont mind forgoing some of the euphoria, just being able to use as often as possible while getting most of the effects w/o increasing dosage or moving on to something harder. I will try and take a week off and then only take them a few times a week. Do you think this will help? Any further advise is appreciated.
Thank you so much,
jerets

Probably wont lower it, but may maintain it... "few" times a week is not going to help keep it low, a couple at most.....you definitely arent going to "lower" it without at least a couple weeks break to a month...I mean theres not much to lower anyhow, 15mg wouldnt get someone completely opy fresh that high....

And Satori is right.

I didnt care about getting addicted the first time either,I liked opiates and I just *had* to find out for myself why everyone using would tell people to stay off how horrible it is etc....Well WD just plain sucks.....you WILL care about dependence(what i should have said instead of addiction) once you WD.....I always had the willpower 10X better thn anyone else who fd around w/drugs but opiates grabbed me, mostly because I was sooo stupidly curious to find out for myself, and am all but clean (have only got high once in two weeks have just been lowering dose slowly maintaining) Now I'll probably be able to just use a couple times a week because I have alot of willpower when it comes to drugs....but I never rende vou'd with anything real rough, and even then I got a glimpse of what everyone calls the "slippery slope" its so easy to fall....and messing with anything hard...eventually you are going to get caught....I know you wont stop, Im not trying to tell you too either, just relaying some experiences.

Also...as tolerance goes up the good effects go down even if you use a larger dose, it just isnt the same, and quitting is an even harder option. Its expensive, glad you have a script that makes it cheap, but is it something a doc will give you forever?

The longer binges you have the harder it is mentally to be sober and pull yourself back in, it took me many many failed attempts to slowly wean down and finally dont jones for opies too badly...I'm sure I wont be a chipper forever though, thats just the way it goes.

[Brony]

Look, just about everyone here is looking out for your best interests. We're all saying from experience that what you're trying to do doesn't work (for long). Stop while you're ahead (since you have chronic pain that makes it difficult) or at least quit chasing a high that you're NEVER gonna see again unless you switch to a stronger drug. Before you know it you'll need something stronger. and stronger. and stronger. and stronger. and stronger (you get my point?)

[jerets]

I will take some time off and try and get myself back to lower dosages and more desired affects. Do you think 1 week off will help? 10 days? After that period, I'll binge for a few more days, off a few days, on a few days, off, etc and see how that goes. I appreciate all the good advise.
Thank you all,
jerets

[satori]

I will take some time off and try and get myself back to lower dosages and more desired affects. Do you think 1 week off will help? 10 days? After that period, I'll binge for a few more days, off a few days, on a few days, off, etc and see how that goes. I appreciate all the good advise.
Thank you all,
jerets


If thats your goal 10 days would be ok, 14 would be better but 10 would do.

[Hammilton]

It's so stupidly annoying for someone to come in here asking for ways to keep getting high on 20mg of hydro and proclaiming that they don't care about addiction. "People with chronic pain take opiates daily for their entire lives" bloddy bloddy blah. People with chronic pain also don't perceive the euphoric effects they way you're wanting to. I take 40mg of methadone daily and have for over a year now. When I'm in severe pain- which is fairly often- I don't notice any narcotic effect. Hardly even get tired. I wish I did. I could really use the extra help sleeping. Would be nice if they could give ket to CPers for severe breakthroughs.

You must not understand what a tolerence is. When you were born you were given just so many Mu-opioid receptors in your brain. Everytime you took a codeine or a vicodin, you grew some more, to accomodate the narcotic flooding through your brain. As more grew, you didn't feel as good as you did before they did. Now 10mg of hydro is just filling them all up; there aren't hordes waiting at the gates anymore.

What do you do? You go and your snort some oxy and take some hydro along with it. Now you're getting that rush associated with the receptors filling up quick, and the hydro takes the usual route, marching from stomach to vein to head. When they get their, though, they're disapointed to find Oxycodone ravaging your receptors, and they start getting impatient. They tear the oxycodone from the receptor like a husband finding another man on his wife. Except instead of shooting the man and the wife, the husband and other-man decide to take turns with her until she's utterly exhausted.

When the wife-receptor finds that the men in her life have left town (as they so often do) she weeps. You weep with her. She makes you pay for sending them on that business trip by opening the floodgates on your bowels. She churns your stomach until you're sitting down, flushing, facing down, flushing, and repeating. She has you doing things you never thought you would to get them back. If you can, she'll reward you for a while. A few hours or so and you'll be as blissful as she is. If you don't, your hell will grow to unspeakable volumes, but eventually she'll get over their absense.

You'll both pine for them for months, and she'll fill your sleep with nightmares of white pills and powders. Maybe you'll go out chasing them down at night, maybe not. It's hard to say.

-----------------------------

Huh- I think I should have this published... maybe I will?

[Chipper]

I will try and take a week off and then only take them a few times a week. Do you think this will help? Any further advise is appreciated.
Thank you so much,
jerets

Simply put, *any* opiate you take will chip away at your tolerance. Eventually you will need more. That's how opiates work; once the body notices external opioids coming in, it down regulates it's own production (whcih I am sure you understand).

The body 'remembers' how to respond to opiates and gets better and better at slowing down it's own production. It's a scary thought but every external opiod ingested will affect your tolerance.

[stvip]

In contrast to what others are saying, I'd like to reiterate: it's not a proven fact that TD is unavoidable. There are many protocols which might prove fruitful in abolishing it. However, none has even been properly tested in humans, and it is a very real possibilty, if unproven, that there is no way to regularly (especially daily) use classical opioids without incurring TD (at least considering regular countermeasures, for example, no icv administration of exotic substances).

[jerets]

Thank you all. I understand more about tolerance/dependance. I was not as educated on it before -- I understood that it existed but wasn't very clear how it worked. I will take 7-10 days off opiates all together. We will see how that goes. It takes 3 days to completely leave your system right? Does anyone know how long it takes for your mu receptors to adjust to not having it? Or does it depend on how long the beigne was for?
Thanks
jerets

[nick]

It leaves your body in three days,but it stays in your mind a damn site longer-possibly forever.
All the rest depends on how long the binge was and how much you were taking,plus your body chemistry.
Think about it and good luck.

[OxyContinuously]

I agree with Devilsdrug and dv also. Not to be rude, so please don't take it like that, *but* 15 or 20 mgs of hydro is nothing, in comparison. If you are serious about it, like everyone said, now IS the time to stop completely or just get ready for the long haul. I started off w the occasional Vicodin here and there, worked up the ranks to junk itself, quicker than I would have imagined (Maybe you're saying, That Oxy dude is a drug addict, heroin? nah, not me!! but yeah, it'll happen quickly, so be aware) But that having been said, on the real tip, lower your tolerance by abstaining for 3 days or so. tha low of a dosage shouldn't give you a problem as far as "getting sick."

Oxy

[jerets]

But that having been said, on the real tip, lower your tolerance by abstaining for 3 days or so. tha low of a dosage shouldn't give you a problem as far as "getting sick."
Oxy

Just 3 days off would be enough? I am not sure how many days I should be off for. How quickly does the body bounce back and adjust to not having it to significantly lower a 15-20mg / day tolerance? I am also in my mid 20s and in very good shape. 3 days sounds very easy. 14 days sounds much harder. More input here would be greatly appreciated. I am not yet clear on how this part works. I also appreciate everyones concern, but I am in this for a much longer hual -- I am not done with opiates just yet. Thank you for your advise on that though.
Thank you all,
Jerets

[nick]

tolerence and wds are very individual and most of us learnt from grim personal experience.I hope you don't get to find out about wds.

[OxyContinuously]

Just 3 days off would be enough? I am not sure how many days I should be off for. How quickly does the body bounce back and adjust to not having it to significantly lower a 15-20mg / day tolerance? I am also in my mid 20s and in very good shape. 3 days sounds very easy. 14 days sounds much harder. More input here would be greatly appreciated. I am not yet clear on how this part works. I also appreciate everyones concern, but I am in this for a much longer hual -- I am not done with opiates just yet. Thank you for your advise on that though.
Thank you all,
Jerets


Hey jerets. I am 27 and in good physical shape also. (the gym, free weights, martial arts have always been a part of my life; I smoke fucking cigarettes though, but i am trying to break that bullshit) and in my experience, 72 hours is enough for the physical part to settle down in terms of tolerance. Yes, 3 days, in answer to your quest, should be good. Abstain, then on day 4, your 20 mgs will be really nice. I think what people were touching upon, was the psychological addiction and cravings that can result from repeated exposure to opiates. It's true that the "quick 72" will do ya as far as tolerance, but the craving, the mental part may last longer, depending on a variety of factors including how long (total duration) you have been using. But yes, you will "bounce back" in as little as three days, and should notice a marked increase in effects. Try that out, I think you'll be fine with it. The other alternative, considering that you said you are in it for the long haul, is to wait the three days, and then on day four take 30mgs---you'll definitely fly if you do that shit ;-)

Oxy

[Hammilton]

It's just so stupid for someone to ask how to lower their 20mg a day tolerance. It can't happen. It's not so much about the body producing less endorphins. That happens, but not significantly. You have more mu-opioid receptors in your brain now. Regardless of the endorphin production, you've got a lot more slots to fill. You'll never be able to do fill them up with the same amount again.

You may think you're "in it for the long haul" as you say- but you don't know anything yet.

Won't be long though. If you wanna prove how smart you are- perhaps you could show us your actual willpower.

You can do weeks off, months off without a problem. You have no reason now to be able to.

[stvip]

You must not understand what a tolerence is. When you were born you were given just so many Mu-opioid receptors in your brain. Everytime you took a codeine or a vicodin, you grew some more

Nonsense.

[jerets]

You have more mu-opioid receptors in your brain now. Regardless of the endorphin production, you've got a lot more slots to fill. You'll never be able to do fill them up with the same amount again.

I may not be able to get the same affects as I was able to get the first couple times I used, but I should be able get my tolerance down with some time off. I do not think months away would be necessary -- I am just looking to get it out of my system and allow my body to adjust to not having it so that I can come back with the more deisred affects. I am already at 24 hours off. Just 48 hours left :)!
Thanks guys! I appreciate all the helpful info. If you guys can think of anything else that might help, please share!
Jerets

[stvip]

It's just so stupid for someone to ask how to lower their 20mg a day tolerance. It can't happen. It's not so much about the body producing less endorphins. That happens, but not significantly. You have more mu-opioid receptors in your brain now. Regardless of the endorphin production, you've got a lot more slots to fill. You'll never be able to do fill them up with the same amount again.

More nonsense.

Excuse the bluntness.

[Hammilton]

I can excuse bluntness, but not stupidity. You've obviously not read much work on the causes of tolerance. You should take a look at Pasternak's book, "The Opiate Receptors."

While there are a few different models, the increasing-receptors model is one of the most prominent. It's actually become so prominent it was the basis for a current nicotine gum commercial. I think it's a gum. I forget.

The increasing number of opiate receptors has been so thoroughly studied we've actually gotten the ability to chart the relationship of receptors, occupancy and the resultant LD50. Of course the number of receptors can only be written in terms of arbitrary units, since we can't actually go in and get actual numbers. This has been well-tested with cultured receptors.



The decreasing-production theory of tolerance just isn't very workable in the long term. It makes sense for initial tolerance, but you can only decrease production so much. However, even after you're producing nothing, you can raise your tolerance. If decreasing production was all that was to it- or even the largest part of it- you'd find that tolerance would cap. This is the reason it hasn't gained the acceptance the other theories has.


To call this theory "nonsense" makes me think you probably haven't read any real research. Perhaps you don't get the Lancet in Israel? You can always buy the book I mentioned from Amazon @ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896031209 it's a little pricey, but not outrageous.

Heres the chart if you can't afford it:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/354186311_0c9cd5560b.jpg

[nick]

I'm not sure about the theory,but that's one hell of a beautiful put down.

[gnat]

I wish I could drop my soma tolerance. It takes 3 to do what one used to do, even then it can take one or two more. If my back is really spazin all day I can take as many as 15 in a day. :(

Opiates seem to drop MUCH faster as I'll go without somas for weeks at a time with no difference.

[jerets]

fuck... i guess there is no hope. I am going to go find a nettle full of heroin and end it all now! lol jk...

[stvip]

It's so stupidly annoying for someone to come in here asking for ways to keep getting high on 20mg of hydro

It's just so stupid for someone to ask how to lower their 20mg a day tolerance.

I can excuse bluntness, but not stupidity.

you probably haven't read any real research. Perhaps you don't get the Lancet in Israel?

That's cute.


While there are a few different models, the increasing-receptors model is one of the most prominent. It's actually become so prominent it was the basis for a current nicotine gum commercial.

NAChR is ionotropic. The opiate receptors are GPCRs with all the (highly relevant) baggage that entails. They're not related. But by all means, tell me what else you've learned from TV commercials.


I think it's a gum. I forget.

Yes?


we've actually gotten the ability to chart

We are not impressed by the usage of "we".


chart the relationship of receptors, occupancy and the resultant LD50.

I can't comment about that table, since I haven't read the study from which it was taken. Provide a reference.


Of course the number of receptors can only be written in terms of arbitrary units, since we can't actually go in and get actual numbers.

Arbitrary units were used for ease of comparison. There are methods of obtaining quantitative measurements of receptor density.


The decreasing-production theory of tolerance

Is irrelevant.

Look, signal transduction is complex. There are universal to GPCRs mechanisms at work, and it's much more involved than a simple receptor/ligand count. But the whole premise is lacking - morphine is very unusual among opiods in the fact that it causes opiate receptors to remain on the surface, rather than being internalized and recycled. And our (the scientific community) understanding of opiate receptors and its signal transduction is very, very poor. It was only recently, for example, that the basic fact of their dimerization has been discovered. Etc.

[tptptp]

I may not be able to get the same affects as I was able to get the first couple times I used, but I should be able get my tolerance down with some time off. I do not think months away would be necessary -- I am just looking to get it out of my system and allow my body to adjust to not having it so that I can come back with the more deisred affects. I am already at 24 hours off. Just 48 hours left :)!
Thanks guys! I appreciate all the helpful info. If you guys can think of anything else that might help, please share!
Jerets

Jerets, a million new people come on and ask this same question and act the same way......If you really want to LOWER your tolerance you should need at least 14 days off, if you want to maintain it you still need a decent break,....72 hours it should be out of your system but the mental WD wont be over and you may prolong your WD by using that shortly.

You are re-asking a question that have several people have answered. I would put $10,000 on you not sticking to an every 3 day routine, or even only using for 3 days taking 3 days off etc. for the next 6 months (if the bet was with a third party) if you only take 3 off and start back on, good luck. Not only that I dont think thats long enough unless MAYBE you are only using ONCE, and then taking another 3 days off, then you're ok, but it doesnt sound like thats what you're doing.
Few days on few days off I dont think works...it may for some people with an abnormal body chemistry but MAX is three days a week and even then you're really pushin it. Depends on chemistry, dose etc. etc. etc. ETC ETC...

There's no magic formula or answer at least not yet, many people have tried to pull something off but nothing works as of yet, the heroin joke might seem funny.....I'll bet alot of people upon reading that were thinking something along these lines:
In a year I'll bet odds are you are at least using oxy's or something just as strong, oxy quite often turns into a heroin problem, if for no other reason then money.

[stvip]

You are all ignoring the fact that this person used hydrocodone daily for 6 months, and is only now starting to feel diminished euphoria from the initial. 6 months of constant opiated euphoria without TD - that is impressive.
I should note that I have been using various opioids regularly for over two years with similar results, though I've enjoyed running consecutive-day binges twice (though with an opiate mix considerably stronger than hydrocodone), and those two years were punctuated by 1-2 week periods of abstinence about 8 times.

[gnat]

You are all ignoring the fact that this person used hydrocodone daily for 6 months, and is only now starting to feel diminished euphoria from the initial. 6 months of constant opiated euphoria without TD - that is impressive.
I should note that I have been using various opioids regularly for over two years with similar results, though I've enjoyed running consecutive-day binges twice (though with an opiate mix considerably stronger than hydrocodone), and those two years were punctuated by 1-2 week periods of abstinence about 8 times.


Yeah I took 10mg hydros daily for about 2 years before I decided to take a break and see if I had any W/D. To my suprise they were very mild, almost nonexistant. At that time I could still feel a 10mg hydrocodone and 20mg would make my nose itch like hell. I can still feel a 10 fairly well, but it takes a good bit more to get an itch from hydrocodone now.

[jerets]

I am just about to the 48 hour mark and still no signs of withdrawl in the least. I don't so much as even have a headache -- I feel fine. I might ride this out longer than 72 hours.
Thanks everyone for staying invovled and helping me out :)!
Jerets

[nick]

You are all ignoring the fact that this person used hydrocodone daily for 6 months, and is only now starting to feel diminished euphoria from the initial. 6 months of constant opiated euphoria without TD - that is impressive.
I should note that I have been using various opioids regularly for over two years with similar results, though I've enjoyed running consecutive-day binges twice (though with an opiate mix considerably stronger than hydrocodone), and those two years were punctuated by 1-2 week periods of abstinence about 8 times.
Wrong,I'm not ignoring anything.Do you think I was born with a needle in my arm?I abused crap pills for sometime and slowly slipped into H.A habit that lasted 20 years.This might not happen to this guy(I really hope it doesn't) but if I still gambled,I wouldn't bet on it not happening.Would you?

[Inspektahdek]

It's so stupidly annoying for someone to come in here asking for ways to keep getting high on 20mg of hydro and proclaiming that they don't care about addiction. "People with chronic pain take opiates daily for their entire lives" bloddy bloddy blah. People with chronic pain also don't perceive the euphoric effects they way you're wanting to. I take 40mg of methadone daily and have for over a year now. When I'm in severe pain- which is fairly often- I don't notice any narcotic effect. Hardly even get tired. I wish I did. I could really use the extra help sleeping. Would be nice if they could give ket to CPers for severe breakthroughs.

You must not understand what a tolerence is. When you were born you were given just so many Mu-opioid receptors in your brain. Everytime you took a codeine or a vicodin, you grew some more, to accomodate the narcotic flooding through your brain. As more grew, you didn't feel as good as you did before they did. Now 10mg of hydro is just filling them all up; there aren't hordes waiting at the gates anymore.

What do you do? You go and your snort some oxy and take some hydro along with it. Now you're getting that rush associated with the receptors filling up quick, and the hydro takes the usual route, marching from stomach to vein to head. When they get their, though, they're disapointed to find Oxycodone ravaging your receptors, and they start getting impatient. They tear the oxycodone from the receptor like a husband finding another man on his wife. Except instead of shooting the man and the wife, the husband and other-man decide to take turns with her until she's utterly exhausted.

When the wife-receptor finds that the men in her life have left town (as they so often do) she weeps. You weep with her. She makes you pay for sending them on that business trip by opening the floodgates on your bowels. She churns your stomach until you're sitting down, flushing, facing down, flushing, and repeating. She has you doing things you never thought you would to get them back. If you can, she'll reward you for a while. A few hours or so and you'll be as blissful as she is. If you don't, your hell will grow to unspeakable volumes, but eventually she'll get over their absense.

You'll both pine for them for months, and she'll fill your sleep with nightmares of white pills and powders. Maybe you'll go out chasing them down at night, maybe not. It's hard to say.

-----------------------------

Huh- I think I should have this published... maybe I will?






That's some crazy ass analogy and symbolism work, heh

[HistoryofMadness]

i'm lazy and this thread is way too long to read right now, so if this is repeat, fuck it.




i'd try 3 things: (and you'll probably need to search them here at opiophile to get more info)

1. Danshen
2. Kratom
3. OTC potentiators (there's a WHOLE thread on potentiators that's pretty good).




Go now, search and be less tolerant.

[gnat]

I'm not sure about the theory,but that's one hell of a beautiful put down.

Yep, very nicely written analogy... it was actually fun/funny to read. :D

[jerets]

Thought you guys might find this interesting:

http://diglib.tums.ac.ir/pub/magmng/pdf/1667.pdf

The goal of this study was to evaluate the effects of ketamine and magnesium on prevention of development of morphine tolerance and dependence in mice. In this study different groups of mice received morphine... ketamine... magnesium... once a day for four days. Tolerance was assessed by adminsitration of morphine and using hot plate test on fifth day. Withdrawl symptoms were assessed by adminsiration of naloxone two hours after co-administrations of morphine with either ketamine or magnesium.
It was found that pretreatment with ketamine or magnesium decreased the degree of tolerance and dependence. Additionally, co-adminsitration of ketamine and magnesium before morphine administration decreased the tolerance and dependence significantly. From these results it may be concluded that administration of ketamine or magnesium alone or together could prevent the development of tolerance and dependence to analgesic effects of morphine. These effects may be related to the NMDA receptor antagonist behavior of ketamine and the ability of magnesium to block the Ca channel of NMDA receptors.

Thats the summery of the test. Read it in depth for further information and dosages used. I have also read that magnesium adds Hcl to the stomach and allows for better absortion before dosing. :)!
Thanks again all,
jerets

[Hammilton]

Arbitrary units were used because there's no real way to quantify, with any real accuracy, the number of opiate receptors in the brain. If you've got one, I'm sure the world is waiting to hear about it.

I'm not saying that the increasing number of opioid receptors is soley responsible for tolerance. It definitely isn't, but to say it's irrelevant isn't simply close-minded and simple, it represents a willful neglect of currently accepted knowledge. We know that down-regulation* and desensitization play a role, but not only aren't they the only source of tolerance, they're not likely to be the major causes. G-protein coupling (and decoupling) by the mu-opioid receptor is almost certain to play a larger role than the other two causes alone. Another likely cause- the existence of anti-opiate systems has been well studied in relative terms.

As for the table, I provided a reference- it's contained in the book. I even went so far as to find a copy you can purchase so that you can read it. For more information regarding information in the first paragraph, you can look to Harrison, et al in Peptides 1998 vol.19 issue.9 pgs.1603 to 1630, Hsu & Wong, in Acta Anaesthesiol Sin, Sept. 2000, vol38 iss3, pgs. 155-166, and Trujillo and Akil in New Biology, October 1991, vol3, iss10 pgs.915-923.


If you ever took the time to read chapter 20 of Current and Emerging Issues in Cancer Pain: Research and Practice, edited by CR Chapman and K Foley, you'd know that nonpeptide opioids, such as ones we're talking about here, are unable to cause downregulation. You'd know that opioid receptors use G-protein coupling as a part of their signal transduction, and that while acute opiate administration effectively couples opioid receptors to G proteins, chronic administration causes functional decoupling preventing those warm fuzzy feelings that are apparently the goal

That all explains why a given dose becomes less and less effective, but it doesn't explain why there isn't a ceiling effect. When opiate-dependent brains and disected, however, increased receptors are found compared to nondependent brains. You can find information about this in Roscow, C Harris LS, ed Problems of drug dependence 1986: Proceedings of the 48th annual scientific meeting. Washington, DC: The Committee on Problems of Drug Dependence, Inc., NIDA Res. Monog., 1987 vol76 pgs29-34 and in Basbaum AI, Besson J-M, eds. Towards a new pharmacotherapy of pain. Dahlem Workshop Reports. New York: Wiley, 1991:157-180.

These are all readily available sources, with the possible exception of the last two which I had to get copies of from an author who cited them.

There are definitely ways to decrease tolerance, but so far none of them have proven very effective. The most effective, by far, has to be NMDA antagonists. They work great in rats, but I doubt constant dosing with Ketamine, MK-801 or Dextromethorphan and the high risk of Olney's lesions that comes with such a regimen.

The herbals have limited effectiveness, but are much more likely to show an actual effect than taking megadoses of magnesium (or any other metal). Unfortunately, the herbals are more likely to provide potentiation than actual tolerance reduction. Although taking Cimetidine may allow you to take a lower dose than you'd otherwise need, it doesn't produce real tolerance reduction. The brain is still needing the same amount- you're just finding more efficient ways of getting the narcotic to the brain. The other likely method of tolerance-reducing action is some sort of synergistic interaction creating more euphoria or warm sedation, or whatever, than you'd get with just the narcotic.

Presently there's simply no practical way to reduce a tolerance back to where it was. You can take weeks off if you'd like, but once you start up again, it'll only be a few days before you're right back where you were. I've gone so far as to go two months off this year with benefit seen after 3 days of use.

There may be a way in the future, as you're correct in saying that it hasn't been proven that it can't be done. A recent study showed that a substance in human male's saliva had the ability to greatly reduce and prevent tolerance. If a follow-up confirms, it would be a great step forward in pain treatment.

Six months of constant hydrocodone use without much of a tolerance isn't a great surprize. With the conservative dosing schedule he described, a it wouldn't be likely to see much of an increase. To begin with, 20mg isn't a high dose for even the most naive person. Dosing 15mg to 20mg once a day with occasional days off, including multiple-day breaks, wouldn't be likely to produce much of a tolerance. Unless this guy is highly sensitive to the euphoric effects, it isn't likely he's even getting high at this point, or ever was for that matter. Taking a low dose like this for a long period of time wouldn't cause the receptors to make much change in their function.

Actually, if you've much experience with chronic pain and narcotic dosing for chronic pain, you'd know that in the long term, it's rare to require constant dose increases. That's for pain, though, of course, and to get high a bit different. Typically when dosing to get high, people are increasing doses to get 'higher' even before actual tolerance begins- forcing tolerance to develop quickly. That's not whats happening in this case.

I've been taking 40mg Methadone daily for well over a year and I still get a decent buzz every time I take my dose. At one time I took 40-60mg daily, skipping alternating days for 4 months and quit without any dependence issues. Even alternating days, that's lot heavier than taking 15-20mg hydrocodone even daily for 6 months. So no, escaping physical dependence even after 6 months isn't all that surprizing.

At least it's not surprizing to me. If you've only used on "consecutive day" binges twice, you're not exactly a load of first-hand knowledge.

Edit: I actually read that study a couple months ago. It's results for magnesium-only weren't too impressive, and I found it odd that 10mg/kg did nearly nothing, 20mg/kg was the best, and 40 was second. That's a strange curve, and I got a feeling it won't transfer to humans well. If it does, you'd need to take about 1.5 grams of magnesium (assuming about 170 pounds). That's not a dangerous dose, as up to 2.5 grams is considered therapeutic. It might be worth a try.

The ketamine results aren't surprizing at all. We've known for a long time that they can reduce tolerance, at least in the short term. Unfortunately, NMDA antagonists like it, dextromethorphan and MK-801 are very likely to cause Olney's Lesion's (think lesion's on the brain) in the long term, and long-term users of dissociatives often experience other severe psychological problems. Dextromethorphan is probably the best candidate as it's one of the least likely to cause the lesions, and sub-psychoactive doses are easily available.

I was probably too dismissive when I said there was no way to decrease what you need to take in to get the same effect. Dextromethorphan is definitely the most likely to produce tangible results. However, in the long term, you still don't want to be taking Dextromethorphan daily for years. There's really no way to prevent tolerance from ever developing. At best, you can throw tacks in the road to slow it down, but eventually you're gonna have to increase your dose to acheive the same effects. While you can still get off on Hydrocodone, you should give Codeine a shot. It's similar in effect, and some people favor it. I was one of those people- I favored it even to oral morphine- but the ability to use it doesn't last long. I always thought it was cozier, and in that way, more enjoyable. Now is the time someone who wants to abuse should be doing their experimentation. With the stuff readily available across the border in Canada and the UK (and easily shipped in) there's no reason not to.

Every opiophile has to face the fact that they will have to increase their dose eventually, and repeatedly to enjoy their chosen habit. If there is a magic bullet some day for tolerance and dependence (like the possible candidate in human saliva) this could all change, but at present, it really is fact. There isn't anything that will keep you at a first-timer's tolerance level forever. I think we should be thankful that out of all drugs, we chose the one most likely to some day get that breakthrough.


Hammilton

By the way- the mocking comment about the commercial is irrelevant- a red herring- it wasn't presented as a source of knowlege as you erroneously indicate, but rather an indicator of the acceptance of a theory.

[jerets]

Just an update. I did my 72 hours of detox and dosed approx 23mg of hydro w/ 1 soma and was very high. This is the very thing I tried several days ago with very little affects, mostly just side affects. I haven't felt like that in a long while. I had really nice nods and an itchy face. I will try again tomorrow with only 20mg of hydro and nothing else and probably tapper myself down (even if I have to forgo the desireable affects) -- I need some time off here in the very near future. I have come to the understanding that I can't live every day like this. It is too expensive and not healthy to rely on medications to feel good everyday and I am not willing to continuously upgrade to the next stronger thing.
Thank you all for your help. I appreciate it.
Jerets

[Hammilton]

That's a smart idea.

No one would ever say that it's healthy to use painkillers every day to get high. Or even healthy once in a while. It's probably not very unhealthy in either case, physically at least. Psychologically it's real dangerous. You start out fine, and then a few weeks or months later it's all you're caring about.

You did a few things smart though. You dosed only once daily, for one. Once-daily dosing is much less reinforcing than multidosing regimens. You also never took what would really be considered a recreational dose. All you're getting at this point is a buzz (at least on it's own, mixing with other CNS depressants might get you high synergistically).

You're certainly not nodding off on that sort of dose. Unless you're 100 pounds and extremely sensitive, you probably never did nod on 20mg (there's a difference between falling asleep high and nodding!).

When I was abusing painkillers and tea, I did it a lot like you are. I rarely took enough to actually nod off, and only really got high on special occasions. It was pretty seldom that I actually had something more than a buzz.

I remember the first time I ever took vicodin. I'd take 2 or 3 and go to work- pleasantly buzzing. I had the bottle of 36 for two weeks. I remember the last dose I took from that bottle. It was a day toward the end of January, and I moved moved back to the dorms, after a semester off. After getting everything set up in my room, I turned on a football game and took either 6 or 9 vicodins. I remember laying on my bed listening to Pink Floyd and feeling the sun shining on my body. Everything was absolutely perfect. It makes me want to cry when I think about it. It was the happiest day of my life. I don't think think I ever had a better high. Funny thing was, at that time, I kept thinking how much it sucked. I never nodded off, but I enjoyed the hell out of it.

I think the only thing that could ever do that for me again would be anything with a needle or smoked heroin. Yum

[AWOL]

Wrong,I'm not ignoring anything.Do you think I was born with a needle in my arm?I abused crap pills for sometime and slowly slipped into H.A habit that lasted 20 years.This might not happen to this guy(I really hope it doesn't) but if I still gambled,I wouldn't bet on it not happening.Would you?


Yes, I would. I just wouldn't pay you. :D So in 20 years from now when he's in lockdown, email me for that money bro ;) I'll overnite it.

[Curio]

http://www.opioids.com/proglumide/index.html

also do some internet searches on opiates and DXM...I believe there are clinical trials where they have been using a 50/50 combo mg per mg of an opiate/DXM combo to keep down tolerance and enhance opiate effects...

search here on some posts jacky has made RE: his own personal experiences with DXM and opiates too..

[jerets]

Just an update. 20mg today was more than enough and had an amazing buzz. Will cut to 15mg tomorrow with maybe the option of a soma :)
Thanks guys!
Jerets

[AWOL]

http://www.opioids.com/proglumide/index.html

also do some internet searches on opiates and DXM...I believe there are clinical trials where they have been using a 50/50 combo mg per mg of an opiate/DXM combo to keep down tolerance and enhance opiate effects...

search here on some posts jacky has made RE: his own personal experiences with DXM and opiates too..


http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=4065

[suboxoneeater]

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=5543

oh yeah, regarding proglumide, it was not cost effective and I couldn't notice a difference. was on 60 mg methadone at the time when I bought these...

However,if someone could buy a kg from a chinese chemist for a couple bucks this could have some use.