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View Full Version : Does Low-Dose Methadone block receptors?



SpecialGuy69
01-08-2007, 02:18 PM
I've recently come into some 10mg methadone pills. For me, this is really the easiest maintenance method there is. Until now, it has always been seen as a last resort because of the tolerance, blocking, difficulty in quitting, etc. But lately, I have realized that these problems are actually the lesser of the two evils (vs. using every day or bouncing back & forth to subutex).

It seems like I can maintain fairly easily on a very low dose (30mg once a day). Is this dose going to block other opiates? Will it raise my tolerance? My experience with methadone is VERY limited, so you guys who have loads of experience, please fill me in.

I'm also curious about dosages- I have what I consider to be a moderately high tolerance (240mg of sniffed OC a day, sometimes MUCH more) and I'm feeling fine with only 30mg of methadone per day. So, why do people get these insanely high methadone doses, like in the 175-250mg range? Do they really have that much more of a habit than me, are they trying to get high off the 'done, or is it something else entirely?

I really think that if it was really easy to get take-home methadone without a lot of bullshit, if doctors could script it like subutex, a LOT more people would be on MMT long term instead of getting high. That's really the only big issue with 'done is the bullshit hoops you gotta jump through.

nick
01-08-2007, 02:32 PM
any doc can write for done here,so we have a lot of people in treatment.However we have very little compiance.
30mgs is a small dose,but even that taken over a period of time will alter tolerence.Be careful done can be evil shit.

blueflutterfly
01-08-2007, 03:54 PM
I've recently come into some 10mg methadone pills. For me, this is really the easiest maintenance method there is. Until now, it has always been seen as a last resort because of the tolerance, blocking, difficulty in quitting, etc. But lately, I have realized that these problems are actually the lesser of the two evils (vs. using every day or bouncing back & forth to subutex).

It seems like I can maintain fairly easily on a very low dose (30mg once a day). Is this dose going to block other opiates? Will it raise my tolerance? My experience with methadone is VERY limited, so you guys who have loads of experience, please fill me in.

I'm also curious about dosages- I have what I consider to be a moderately high tolerance (240mg of sniffed OC a day, sometimes MUCH more) and I'm feeling fine with only 30mg of methadone per day. So, why do people get these insanely high methadone doses, like in the 175-250mg range? Do they really have that much more of a habit than me, are they trying to get high off the 'done, or is it something else entirely?

I really think that if it was really easy to get take-home methadone without a lot of bullshit, if doctors could script it like subutex, a LOT more people would be on MMT long term instead of getting high. That's really the only big issue with 'done is the bullshit hoops you gotta jump through.

if you're going to give methadone a try DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO ANYONE ELSES DOSE...you cannot measure your methadone dose by how much dope you were using. some people try to, i call it the hardcore syndrome (in a terribley sarcastic way). your body doesn't process methadone the way it does other opies and by the looks of it you just might be bless'd with slow methadone metabolizm - metabolizm is the key to dose...if it's 'slow' quite often you can get away with a lower dose, if it's 'fast' quite often you need split-dosing to keep from running sick around the 15 hour mark...

these insanely high doses, they're any number of things. alot of people lie about it not realizing it doesn't say much about the habit they had....and u.s doses overall on average, once i started looking at this stuff online, american doses seem like crazy high compared to everywhere else...i was once told it's the type of methadone the u.s uses but i couldn't find anything to back it up. at my clinic almost all the doses range between 20 and 120 mg's. out of 400 people there's like 4 above 120...3 of them split dose...and the place has no quarrel with giving you the dose you need (many people at one time or another have gone above 120 but found themselves constantly nodding out and sweating non stop) maybe the us has alot of junky nurses stepping on the medication????

that, and alot of people believe methadone is going to be a cure all for their dope want. once they stabilize their dose (a few days to a few weeks) and loose the slight fuzzy feeling they had - for most people mdone has no high but for the faintest feeling the first few days - they start chasing and go higher and higher and higher till they're on something like 250 with their eye lids dragging on the ground behind them bitching methadone fuck'd them up worse than the dope did....

you either love it or hate it...and it all depends on what you're looking for...good luck;)

iceeslunk
01-08-2007, 04:05 PM
yeah ill go with what was said above...i personally, back when i was reeeally into oxy, 160 or so a day, i once tried to maintain with done, but took a little too much, and spent the next 24 hours in only what i could call a reverse withdrawl type feeling, hoooorible headache, nausea, basically wanting to kill myself...
now, however, as far as recrationally, i dont do nearly as much oxy or H, but i can taker 90 mgs and feel pretty fucking good for about a day and a half...and i mean all itchy, not nodding, but damn near at some points...go figure...
just be careful with it man, its a double edged sword like all opiates...start low and work yourself up until you find your sweet spot! and good luck

Duckfeet
01-08-2007, 04:39 PM
I speak as one who has been unsuccessful on methadone maintenance. But I will say it's an *individual* thing. Some people do really well at what othuer people consider very high doses--over 200mg daily... they aren't "nodding out" or all the other horror stories you hear about. It seems higher doses they get less sleepy and their body adjusts better. there is some evidence that *underdosing* has side effects which are often confused with overdosing. I would suggest you go to readybb.com/watchdog, and you can hear some success stories, and also some of the failures. It's definitely an area where one should do some research, and see what the actual personal experiences are, rather than the second hand horror stories. Same with buprenorphine--which I'm on. There is no free lunch, but it's too serious an area for me not to bounce around a little bit online, hear "both sides" of the story, rather than only hear what I want to hear.

I would suggest anybody considering longterm methadone maintenance go to Watchdog, and get some info from those who have used it as it was meant to be used, and also go to heroin-detox.com/methadone, to hear some of the firsthand horror stories. And then make your own decision.

Having said all that, I myself *prefer* lower doses, 20-40 mg daily. It does *not* work as effectively, and does seem to wear off by the next morning. I feel slight sickness/withdrawal symptoms after about 20 hrs. On the other hand, at lower dose a tend to "feel" it more, about an hour after I dose. And constipation--which has always been my most intractable side effect--seems to be a little more manageable.

prettypoppy
01-08-2007, 08:18 PM
I take 240mg a day, and I am in no way overmedicated. I had to fight to get to my dose--I had to have blood tests (since banned, by the way) and go in for several 4 hour nuse observations after dosing, have my vitals taken every 30 minutes, etc. On lesser doses (I was on 170 for a good while) I did fairly well but every evening I would start having withdrawals (not heinous ones--just runny nose, watery eyes, serial sneezing fits, etc). And I knew that I was planning to STAY on MMT, probably for life, so what was the point in keeping my dose just as low as I could possibly STAND it, when I could be comfortble for 24 hours? I mean, MMT is a commitment--if you're going to be on mmt, BE ON MMT--not one foot in and one foot out. There's ont much point in any form of treatment if you're only going to do it half-assed. If you are comfy on 30mg, great, but if you really aren't then go up until you are, because any taper that's not started from a point of comfort and stability is pretty much doomed to failure anyhow.

It has a lot to do with how your body metabolizes things, too. I have always had a gi-normous tolerance for stuff--always. My husband would shoot one $20 balloon of H and be in la la land and I would need 4 or 5, and then STILL be fully alert. You cannot judge your dose by someone else's. There would be absolutely no point in me asking to get a 20mg raise because I thought I might get high off it. I know I won't and so does the clinic. In fact, I'd be lucky if it made any difference at all in the w/d symptoms, and people on higher doses know this, so they are NOT "chasing a high" when they ask for a 20 mg raise after 2 years on the same dose.

I know of 2 people on over 1,000mg. One is an attorney. She is a small woman, and did not even go to law school until after she got on MMT. She is now a successful lawyer and a patient advocate, and you would NEVER know she was on anything, much less 1,000mg of methadone. You may not believe it, but I saw it with my own 2 eyes.

SpecialGuy69
01-08-2007, 08:47 PM
Thanks, poppy. Here's the thing though- I'm not in MMT. If I was, I'd probably be on a (slightly) higher dose- maybe like 45 or 55mg's. I have to purchase 'done from friends, and I want to make it last. At such a low dose, if I go down to 20, I'm stretching out my 'done by an extra 50%.

I really thought it would take a lot more than 30mg to hold me, but that's what my dosage calculator said (after titrating up, which I think is a bullshit waste of time). So I tried 30, and I feel fine. Given, its only day#2, and I dosed last night then again this morning, but I figure I'm building up some plasma levels now so that's okay. Right?

Do you think 30mg will block other opiates?

prettypoppy
01-08-2007, 09:36 PM
I'm almost sure it won't. I used to use heroin when I was on 80mg and I felt it just fine. A blocking dose is supposed to be at least 80-120mg.

Another thing--I read recently that pillheads tend to need (oddly enough) higher doses of methadone than heroin addicts. The reason being tossed around in scientific circles is that many pill abusers take pills with a ton of tylenol or other OTC painkillers in them that are very hard on the liver, in very large amounts, thus sustaining a degree of liver damage. Therefore, it takes more methadone to stabilize them since their livers are not processing the drug properly. This is the same reason that hepatitis c patients often need higher doses.

blueflutterfly
01-08-2007, 10:14 PM
I take 240mg a day, and I am in no way overmedicated. I had to fight to get to my dose--I had to have blood tests (since banned, by the way) and go in for several 4 hour nuse observations after dosing, have my vitals taken every 30 minutes, etc. On lesser doses (I was on 170 for a good while) I did fairly well but every evening I would start having withdrawals (not heinous ones--just runny nose, watery eyes, serial sneezing fits, etc). And I knew that I was planning to STAY on MMT, probably for life, so what was the point in keeping my dose just as low as I could possibly STAND it, when I could be comfortble for 24 hours? I mean, MMT is a commitment--if you're going to be on mmt, BE ON MMT--not one foot in and one foot out. There's ont much point in any form of treatment if you're only going to do it half-assed. If you are comfy on 30mg, great, but if you really aren't then go up until you are, because any taper that's not started from a point of comfort and stability is pretty much doomed to failure anyhow.





jesus christ...why does everything in the states have to be such a big fricken deal all the time??? i don't understand it...what ever happen'd to live and let live? good for you, it's just so sad that you had to go through what you did to get what you needed.

have they ever talk'd to you about split dosing? your type of situation is exactly why they do it. one of the women in my program takes 145 mg's every 12 hours...for her, it was the difference in believeing methadone was useless and getting her life back. that's the whole point of MMT, stability...you can't achieve it if you're going up and down and all around all the while being grill'd like you're lying and just trying to scam them...

robojunkie
01-08-2007, 11:47 PM
Hey tm, like others have said dose varies significantly from person to person. My highest was 110 and my lowest (maintanance, not coming off) was 45. This was fine for me. And technically speaking, even though this phrase is used alot at clinics, done doesn't "block" anthing, it drastically raises your tolerance. It's a pure mu antagonist (the "good" isomer, the other one has mild NMDA qualities, I've heard...never felt them though).

Oh yeah, the high dose thing can vary...for some its a metabolism issue as others have said, for others its to raise their tolerance so high there's no physical or phsychological temptation (or purpose) to do H. And I suppose for some its a slow increase to keep feelin' somethin'. As for the dose related to OC not matching with all the "equianalgesic" charts, I have read somewhere (I can't remember where or I'd post it) that although methadone may be essentially equivalent in analgesic effect/supposedly subjective as well, in abating wd symptoms it is something like 3 or 4 more times effective than morphine. Not sure why this is although I know that the way tolerance develops/decreases wrt to the mu-receptor up/down regulation is different. The best testimony to this difference is the horrible kick involved comin' off done.

freedomclub
01-09-2007, 06:53 AM
When I first started buying methadone off the streets, I started by taking 20mgs in the a.m. and 20mgs after lunch. I did this for a week not really noticing until the third day and then I didn't really like the way it made me feel. But it fucked my tolerance up to all hell. Lortab 10's wouldn't do it like they used to at ALL. Then I tried it again and did 40 mgs to 60 mgs daily for around a month and my dealer ripped me off, forget how but I was so mad I went back down to the Lortabs again and I remember thinking "Well, this is day 17 w/out methadone damn, this sucks!" After what seemed like years but was probably under 6 months Perc 10's came around and they started working really good but at 8 bucks a pop and a little shit for a dealer I drove myself crazy trying to keep them around. When I moved away to a town with no connects I took that rabid monkey to the clinic and haven't looked back.

Canis aureus
01-09-2007, 12:13 PM
Well, it is not wholly correct to say that methadone blocks receptors or other opiates or whatever. Don't call me smart ass, but its affinity and occupation. And that that there is so much methadone that other opiates have hard time to get in receptors. Namely, methadone has quite high affinity, but not very high.

People who have problems wirth WD's, ie have Wd's in quite high doses of methadone have either much of receptors, or are fast metabolisers (or both). Ansd those people are cabable of getting high, or in other words are feeling other opiates in relatively high doses of methadone. I for example felt heroin in over 100mgs. I don't remember was I in 110 or in what I was, but I felt heroin very clearly; I got clearly high or in other words euphoric while I was in over 100 of methadone. I am not completely sure why. I am fast metaboliser also... when I was in that required peak and through blood tes I have over four times as much methaone in affter dose than I had after 24 hours... And I know it. I feel clear Wd's every morning still (although I take two doses...)

I really hope that I wouldn't be such a metaboliser. It is pain in ass, so to say...

But the mening of this reply was that not all get "block" in even 100 or in therauphetic doses, and those persons are able to feel it (both, that that they could get high and that that methadone is low in their blood-stera) most often.

Duckfeet
01-09-2007, 12:52 PM
When I first started buying methadone off the streets, I started by taking 20mgs in the a.m. and 20mgs after lunch. I did this for a week not really noticing until the third day and then I didn't really like the way it made me feel. But it fucked my tolerance up to all hell. Lortab 10's wouldn't do it like they used to at ALL. Then I tried it again and did 40 mgs to 60 mgs daily for around a month and my dealer ripped me off, forget how but I was so mad I went back down to the Lortabs again and I remember thinking "Well, this is day 17 w/out methadone damn, this sucks!" After what seemed like years but was probably under 6 months Perc 10's came around and they started working really good but at 8 bucks a pop and a little shit for a dealer I drove myself crazy trying to keep them around. When I moved away to a town with no connects I took that rabid monkey to the clinic and haven't looked back.

Yer rite, and that's a pretty common story. We just get tired of the game, and whether it's our first or "fifth" choice as far as opiates go, it's available and legal, and we make the best of it. All the knowledge about endorphins and good defenses of methadone use, for me comes after the fact. I just get tired of getting sick and copping and all the financial and legal problems come with dope use, and the clinic's right there. Sad truth is that once I'm on methadone a while, I remember *why* it isn't my DOC, and thus begins, one more time, the merry-go-round. All the knowledge of brain chemistry in the world don't change those facts. I don't like methadone, don't like the way it makes me feel, don't like the fact that society gets to decide what's "good for me." But still, what are you going to do. Immediate problems trump theory, every time. I know very well the hypocracy of my position. I'm glad that people on maintenance can find kindred spirits online, people who have overcome obstacles, and see methadone as a lifesaver, and a "good" thing. I just try to be as honest as I can, for those of us that aren't convinced.

insaneike
01-09-2007, 12:59 PM
I read it won't start blocking or filling up said receptors until you're on 80mg+, but you can start to notice 'some' increase of other opis needed in just 60mg in some patients.

I can dig up the source for that info sometime if you want, but you should be able to find it on google within 3min searching for how methadone works and blocks, ect. lol.

I take anywhere from 25-50mg of 'done a day, and it acts as a VERY good commentator for my other opis(from oxy to smack). I usually do 10-20mg with 60mg of IR Oxy(two roxis chewed up) when I wake up, before I even drag my legs out of bed... then I usually will take another 10-20mg when I go to bed, to have something last through my sleep(very long half life) so I don't wake up with the come on of WDs as bad.. and well, I still get BLISTERED from dope and everything. and I don't have to take near as much oxy as I normally would if I wasn't taking 'done! It acts a very good commentator's for me, far from blocking lol!! The only one that 'done isn't really too good a commentator for is Fentanyl, which knocks all other opis in their place and take over, the only other opi that works good on fent is dope..

prettypoppy
01-09-2007, 06:29 PM
I take anywhere from 25-50mg of 'done a day, and it acts as a VERY good commentator for my other opis..


Did you mean "potentiator"? I haven't heard the term "commentator" before--unless talking about Dan Rather, lol!:o But seriously, what does it mean in this context?

AWOL
01-09-2007, 06:44 PM
I haven't heard the term "commentator" before--unless talking about Dan Rather,lol!

teh heh heh .... His methadone gives him a play by play :D BAM !!! Tough actin tinactin !!

flipside
01-09-2007, 06:51 PM
Thanks, poppy. Here's the thing though- I'm not in MMT. If I was, I'd probably be on a (slightly) higher dose- maybe like 45 or 55mg's. I have to purchase 'done from friends, and I want to make it last. At such a low dose, if I go down to 20, I'm stretching out my 'done by an extra 50%.

I really thought it would take a lot more than 30mg to hold me, but that's what my dosage calculator said (after titrating up, which I think is a bullshit waste of time). So I tried 30, and I feel fine. Given, its only day#2, and I dosed last night then again this morning, but I figure I'm building up some plasma levels now so that's okay. Right?

Do you think 30mg will block other opiates?

Hey T, 30mgs should not block other opies. And if it's holding you it should continue to do so as long as you don't change your intake of other opies or your done dose thus increasing your tolerance. make sense?

AWOL
01-13-2007, 11:38 PM
hey tm, you at a clinic or did you pick up some done off the streets?

Chipper
01-16-2007, 12:16 AM
When Methadone was initially introduced, people were put on high doses to block receptors. That is not so common these days. At about 80-100+ mg. would work quite well at blocking. However, if you try to breakthrough, overdose is a real concern.

Chipper
01-16-2007, 05:46 PM
I recently tried with a couple of mgs. and I still experienced very mild w/d's on day 2 after about 50 mgs H. For the sake of science, i will keep trying various combinations just for you guys :)