How hard is it to produce oxy/morph/hydromorph from scratch?

[KiloByte]

I was wondering how easy it is to produce pills and if its possible without starting with any form of opiates. I realise this is a pretty ignorant question and I have no interest in actually attempting something like this (seriously, I'm not trying to pull a SWIM thing here) so all I'm looking for is very vague info. I mean if its possible for an underground lab to produce lsd why not produce massive amounts of opiates besides heroin?

[Nostromos]

vell. good question, to which i must initially answer, "nads".

but it sounds like you wanna, what, synthesize opiates, the way one synthesizes meth? dat is a goood question, but keep in mind the reason morons cook up meth is because it's relatively easy. all opiate drugs are distilled from actual Opium that's been harvested. i've never heard of methods of synthesizing opiates from available chemicals, but i assume it's pretty complicated and time-consuming. if there is a way, though, i'd like to know for amusement's sake. yech, the hell with meth, that shit's scary.

i just smoked some salvia 2nite cos i dammit-can't-sleep. amazing, not unpleasant disorientation and displacement characterized by visions of county-fair roller coaster cabways and an overpowering un-familiarity with my very lived-in room. conviction of being in a doctor's office with other people that took an effort to disregard as i stumbled into bed, at length terribly unable to sleep. meep. meeeeeeep.

quick follow-up on that, does this shirt make look fat? a blastalotudinous fart characterized by Marcel Mostrianni with some sort of over-sized deformity growing cyst-like from his left shoulder. last weekend, Kratom made me sway with eyes closed as if i was attractive. there's a girl from myspace who referred to me as a "butt" and wants to meet me for coffee.

potatoes aside, have you ever considered the practical applications of "meating" someone? like with a raw porterhouse steak?

[L0VE]

I'm still thinking the same thing, take motrin paint it green and inscribe oc 80 on it or some shit and call it an oxy :) , no really I'd be pissed if someone started making fake oxys, I'd probably end up buying heroin made with the (I can't even say it), rat poison, and all.

[robojunkie]

It's been done in the 50's, takes about 30 steps and the yield from what you start with is less that a fraction of a percent. It was only done to prove the structure (morphine). No one does it cause its uneconomical, ie each mg recovered would probably cost thousands of dollars in supplies and time spent. So how "hard" is it: consider it impossible.

[Papa Verine]

I beleive Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, hyrdomorphone... all the semi-synthetic opiates are made from Thebaine. Thebaine is a naturally occurring alkaloid in papaver somniferum.

I guess instead of making anything from scratch you could try to isolate thebaine and start there. I'm sure you'll have to know a little more than the average bear about chemistry however.

Oxycontinuously is a chemist. Is this right Oxy?

[OxyContinuously]

Papa Ver


Yessir. You are right. oxy is strictly from thebaine. Hydrocodone is derived from codeine (a natural alkaloid) and thebaine also. Hydromorphone doesn't rely on either of these two just for the reason that it is made dfrom morphine which is also a natural alkaloid. Hydromorphone is the hydrogenated ketone of morphine. Right on the money though, Papa V, and you're right--you need a sophisticated lab to do this shit.

[roxi*stardust]

I beleive Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, hyrdomorphone... all the semi-synthetic opiates are made from Thebaine. Thebaine is a naturally occurring alkaloid in papaver somniferum.

I guess instead of making anything from scratch you could try to isolate thebaine and start there. I'm sure you'll have to know a little more than the average bear about chemistry however.

Oxycontinuously is a chemist. Is this right Oxy?
My understanding is the Thebaine is only present in very very small amounts in the papaver somniferum, it takes an incredible amount of raw opium to get suffcient quanities of Thebaine and this is why they were gentically altering opium plants to raise the levels of thebaine to keep up with the demand for it in the pharmacuetical business.

[OxyContinuously]

My understanding is the Thebaine is only present in very very small amounts in the papaver somniferum, it takes an incredible amount of raw opium to get suffcient quanities of Thebaine and this is why they were gentically altering opium plants to raise the levels of thebaine to keep up with the demand for it in the pharmacuetical business.


that is true. you need a lot of plants to be able to acquire the amount of thebaine necessary for any meaningful synthesis.

[superman]

If you want to do this for profit, you'd be best to start with straw or opium. or better yet diverted morphine or thebaine but good luck on that one.

keep the morph, thebaine and codiene and scrap the rest unless you're bored.

Oh to only have that much time and money....

[robojunkie]

Not suggesting this be done as it would be very dangerous without proper experience, but theoretically if one had thebaine why not go for the gusto, add a couple of steps and a few orders of magnitute of potency and go Immobilon? Allegedly one of the most euphoric opiates (don't know anyone who's had it but have read about it, if that counts for anything). Shit, oxy multiple 10's of mgs to get off, etorphine a few micrograms! Yay etorphine!

In all seriousness don't even attempt this shit. You spill or splash something the little bit in the air will drop you like a good habit. And people that make this shit or fent for sale suck ass as they know just enough to do the synthesis but don't know jack shit about properly diluting in even concentrations, ie they are killers. How many in the last few months? Several hundred or a thousand fent OD's?

[moviebuff927]

Very fucking hard...

[robojunkie]

Oh yeah, KB, you're original question: lsd comes from the ergot alkaloids which are cleaved into activated lyseric acid groups and substituted with the diethylamine. Analogous to thebaine to oxy or whatever. Point is they both start with a complex, nearly complete, natural source. They don't make lsd "from scratch" underground.

[SalvationThroughDilaudid]

Papa Ver


Yessir. You are right. oxy is strictly from thebaine. Hydrocodone is derived from codeine (a natural alkaloid) and thebaine also. Hydromorphone doesn't rely on either of these two just for the reason that it is made dfrom morphine which is also a natural alkaloid. Hydromorphone is the hydrogenated ketone of morphine. Right on the money though, Papa V, and you're right--you need a sophisticated lab to do this shit.

No sophisticated lab needed at all to turn morph into dilaudid. Just turn your morphine sideways:cool:

[jacky]

if tobacco plants are fed the semi common natural compound called reticuline (morphine precursor) they will uptake the isoquinoline alkaloid and turn it into morphine.

I thought about this, and realized, that nicotine lasts way shorter than morphine in the body, so perhaps a person could smoke themselves into a meaningful dose of morphine within a few hours of smoking this "special" tobacco every 15 minutes.

I imagine that there are other plants that contain the biosynthetic pathways to convert reticuline/salutaridine into M.

[applesauce]

Anyone interested in cost-effective synthesis of narcotics may be well-served to do some web searches on MPPP synthesis.

MPPP is a Demerol analog, and it is quite abusable as an injectable narcotic.

The synthesis requires more knowledge than a simple Birch Reduction or any of the other fairly simple meth rxn, but it does work. The down-side is that botching the synth will leave too much MPTP, which is a neurotoxin that pretty much tosses the user into the final stages of Parkinson's Disease.

So making a mistake in the synth causes a hell worse than death.

Fentanyl can be and has been built in domestic (US) underground labs, but it is absolutely not something that is in the reach of meth or even ecstasy chemhacks, we are talking access to a real lab. Leave fentanyl to the mafia or whatever, but MPPP is possible - just really dangerous if you aren't careful.

Did I ever mention to anyone that my cat's name is B14? It is short for BioAssay Unit # 14.

(Hopefully that will get a chuckle, because if anyone thinks I'd really test anything *I* could make on my beloved feline, they'd be dead wrong. It really is his name, though. :) )

[Paregoric Kid]

yes you can synthesize opioids if you have the right ingredients, the right equipment, and a degree in or equivalent knowledge of chemistry.

[Heroine]

that is true. you need a lot of plants to be able to acquire the amount of thebaine necessary for any meaningful synthesis.

AMEN

[Heroine]

:)No sophisticated lab needed at all to turn morph into dilaudid. Just turn your morphine sideways:cool:

That's BS and we all know it; do you even know what a ketone is? OxyC and PapaVer know what I mean. Just stop it. It can't be done. Just accept, and realize you guys gotta cop from a dealer. End of story.

[Ickyuck]

http://www.dea.gov/programs/forensicsci/microgram/bulletins_index.html

Browse through it if you haven't already. You'll see what kind of chemical and manufacturing balls it takes. And what kind of nightmare that could be created.

[applesauce]

:)

That's BS and we all know it; do you even know what a ketone is?

"AHmdp2pCHOO!"

"Gazooontite."

"Thanks."

"Wack 'er, Uncle Palladium!"

"Yessir I will."

SWIM says "Don't dew drugs."

[nick]

If it was easy,we'd all smell bad or worse because or bathtubs would be full of chemicals.

[applesauce]

If it was easy,we'd all smell bad or worse because or bathtubs would be full of chemicals.

Methylamine smells just like candy. Just like Elderly Woman Crotch flavored candy.

[sk8opium]

Methylamine smells just like candy. Just like Elderly Woman Crotch flavored candy.


fyi - im luaghing my fucking ass off

[SalvationThroughDilaudid]

:)

That's BS and we all know it; do you even know what a ketone is? OxyC and PapaVer know what I mean. Just stop it. It can't be done. Just accept, and realize you guys gotta cop from a dealer. End of story.


The pics were there so you would realize the joke. Perhaps a poor joke, but still a joke no less. No need to take it so seriously.

[robojunkie]

Hey OxyC,

Just for fun as it is of course easier to just buy the oxy and the most cost effective method to product oxy is through the thebaine but one could just 6-methylate codeine and oxidize with a peroxide. This is a known procedure. Also why not just allylic oxidation (of codeine/morphine) with SeO2? That's a obviously a known reaction and the intermediate bond shift before loss before the oxidative sigmatropic shift is the same geometry as thebaine. Only reason for possible failure would be those piperidine protons interfering sterically. Or just do a allylic alcohol MnO2 oxidation (to codeine), then generate the vinilogous alkyl enol ether (ie, thebaine)? Sorry everyone else for the chem talk, just always wonder about the "can't get this from that" stuff. I'm just wondering about this for fun, this would be totally pointless to try even if a person had the access/desire to try as if they had access/desire, f oxy and just demethylate the cod, acylate, blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm bored.

[SpecialGuy69]

what about cocaine? I've heard for years that people are synthing cocaine here in the us- is this possible? A lot of people in my area will say that shitty coke is "synthetic". They are probably just head-up-own-ass stupid druggies, but is this at all possible? I'd love to call bullshit and shove it in their faces.

btw these are the same people who still say extacy is cut with heroin, so I don't put a lot of stock in what they say.

[robojunkie]

That one is doable in something like 4 to 6 steps depending on what was theoretically started with "from scratch". But like a lot of these preps it would cost a hell of a lot more in time and materials than it would to just buy it. Just like everything else in life people make shit that has a high value to cost ratio. Like meth or fent. Meth=cheap stuff to start, and usually only one or two steps, fent=more difficult, dangerous but very high value to the fuckers that make/sell it as H and somehow pull off the prep in their fricking basement but don't have the common sense/know how to equate the doses evenly to H with the cut so that one bag in a bundle/brick/whatever is shit and one is an instant OD.

[Dilaudid]

Hello opiophiles,

You can synthetise a brunch of opiates with the proper knowledge and equipement.
Codeine can be converted in hydrocodone with Pseudomonas putida M10 for exemple, codeine can also be converted in 1,4-Codeinone and in oxycodone then demethylated in oxymorphone.
Fentanyl and other anilidopiperidine are relatively easy to synth (exept for Swern oxydation and small scale PTC steps).
Phenylheptylamines (Methadone,LAAM...) are pretty easy to synth too.
Benzomorphans like pentazocine are a bit harder.
The harder are the Morphinans.
If you're a skilled chemist it's ok but for the simple lamba citizen it's very hard to do.

Hmmmm I love the smell of MeAm in the morning...
MeAM smell like rotten fish.

[applesauce]

Hmmmm I love the smell of MeAm in the morning...
MeAM smell like rotten fish.

...AND victory. :)

[applesauce]

Hey OxyC,

Just for fun as it is of course easier to just buy the oxy and the most cost effective method to product oxy is through the thebaine but one could just 6-methylate codeine and oxidize with a peroxide. This is a known procedure. Also why not just allylic oxidation (of codeine/morphine) with SeO2? That's a obviously a known reaction and the intermediate bond shift before loss before the oxidative sigmatropic shift is the same geometry as thebaine. Only reason for possible failure would be those piperidine protons interfering sterically. Or just do a allylic alcohol MnO2 oxidation (to codeine), then generate the vinilogous alkyl enol ether (ie, thebaine)? Sorry everyone else for the chem talk, just always wonder about the "can't get this from that" stuff. I'm just wondering about this for fun, this would be totally pointless to try even if a person had the access/desire to try as if they had access/desire, f oxy and just demethylate the cod, acylate, blah blah blah. Yeah, I'm bored.

As the great Professor Hubert Farnsworth would say, "anything with that many big words could easily destabilize time".

Great post though, damage to spacetime notwithstanding.

[KiloByte]

what about cocaine? I've heard for years that people are synthing cocaine here in the us- is this possible? A lot of people in my area will say that shitty coke is "synthetic". They are probably just head-up-own-ass stupid druggies, but is this at all possible? I'd love to call bullshit and shove it in their faces.

btw these are the same people who still say extacy is cut with heroin, so I don't put a lot of stock in what they say.


Gotta love those people, always trying to sound like "advanced" drug users spouting off random tidbits of 100% bullshit every chance they get. Just do yourself a favor and tape your ears shut ;)

[applesauce]

I like the "heroin in ecstasy" thing even more than the "strychnine in LSD" one.

I think I'm going to start telling people that pot is laced with THC and see how many ask how it changes the buzz.

[Papa Verine]

Gotta love those people, always trying to sound like "advanced" drug users spouting off random tidbits of 100% bullshit every chance they get. Just do yourself a favor and tape your ears shut ;)

I second that! There's so much ignorant bull-shit that gets thrown around the scene it makes me sick. I had one moron tell me his sink was clogged with LYE. The same guy who makes his own meth...

[nick]

About 90 years of misinformation which is the corner stone of the war on drugs=ignorence.

[SpecialGuy69]

let's create a new drug-related rumor and see how long it takes to catch on. Something about the ingredients in meth? nah- too played out. An adulterant? Maybe something OC is cut with....

[nick]

it's got to be plauseable yet amazingly dumb.Like yaks milk being used in OC.

[SpecialGuy69]

I think you're onto something here, nick. You've discovered the formula for a stupid drug myth!

[nick]

Thanks bro.I always knew I'd contribute to society somehow.

[insaneike]

I'd just like to add that if you're even contemplating making opiates, or synthing opioids you're going
to be WAYYYY better off and maybe able to pull it off in your basement if you buy a shitload of poppy pods, do an Acid/Base extraction, and get some pure morphine... if you can do this, and can somehow on earth obtain some acetic anhydrous...well... self explanitory ;)

Aside from that one, I would never even think of trying to synth an opioid!!! Theres no way it'd be worthwile... the only thing along these lines worthwhile would be to d an A/B on opium poppies and extract the morphine and codeine and well, turn the codeine to morphine(easy if you're into this field) and the morph into diamorph(easy if u can get the chems)...

[nick]

so to recap,it easy if you have the knowledge,the equipment and the chemicals.I'll start tomorrow.

[applesauce]

<pretending this is a thread that this post relates to>

Did anybody see the episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit! about environmentalism? I liked the part where they went to one of those "Earth" gatherings and had a cute girl walk around with a petition that was calling for the outlawing of the horrendous deadly compound "dihydrogen monoxide". She kept getting one signature after the next, after she explained that this chemical was practically EVERYWHERE, and in high doses it is lethal. Its not an original joke, but it was side-splitting to see people practically line up to express their distaste for water (and their stupendous ignorance).

I read somewhere that some eighth graders, I think it was in Ohio, they went to several hundred houses and knocked on doors with a copy of the Bill of Rights, and explained to people that they were PROPOSED amendments to the constitution. Almost half of the people who they showed it to said they disagreed with it, and some had additional comments like "communism" and "would lead to crime". I don't know where I read this so I can't say if it really happened, but it my brain has this memory stored on the "fact" pile for whatever reason.

</pretending this is a thread that this post relates to>

Edited to add: This post is re: the "how fast urban legends can spread" notion