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View Full Version : Obamacare's gonna git meh my MMT, fer free!



SpaceChimp
11-25-2013, 06:19 PM
No shit, they say I don't qualify for silver plan discounts since I'm eligible for Medi-Cal under the new regulations, which is one of the few types of insurance, if only, the local clinic accepts. Bonus! Now, to get on maintenance or not to get on maintenance, that is the question... Maybe it's still "to be or not to be," in a sense.

--- auto merge ---

* free to me, not to all you fine taxpayers

Spreadin' Butter
11-25-2013, 06:23 PM
Do you think it will pay for subs and a doc? I'm out in the woods so I'm fucked until I can get some poppies grown nexx year. I'm a broke ass but ima be on my family's policy; what's the deal yo?

SpaceChimp
11-25-2013, 06:53 PM
I think it might cover that as well, I'm trying to check coverage but I saw some Medi-Cal notice relating to a coverage for bupe transdermal patches specifically for heroin treatment, so unless I misunderstood I think so.

Count Zero
11-25-2013, 06:59 PM
I'm just glad it's helping people get the meds they need, you read so much stuff about what a disaster it is, I'm glad to hear of someone it actually helped. I hope they get the shit running right sometime soon.

Ravenous
11-25-2013, 07:12 PM
I'm just glad it's helping people get the meds they need, you read so much stuff about what a disaster it is, I'm glad to hear of someone it actually helped. I hope they get the shit running right sometime soon.

What I want to know is whether I can keep my insurance? Obama said not to worry; that anyone that liked their current coverage could keep it. Now we are finding out that that might not be the case. I hope I can keep mine. A lot of the Obamacare plans are crappier insurance than what I have and they cost more per month! Fuck that!

I want everyone to have healthcare but I don't want a crappier health plan and have to pay more money per month for it on top of it.

Edit: also Obama lied about being able to keep your doctor. A lot of people will lose their doctors and have to find new ones. Read about it in this Time magazine online article:
http://swampland.time.com/2013/11/19/you-can-keep-your-doctor-obamacares-next-broken-promise/

Jega
11-25-2013, 08:15 PM
Last I heard, both houses of congress fixid the issue of being forced to change your plan with an amendment..

The way they explanied it was obama care requining ten specific thigs. Not all plans ment all ten things. Say one ment 7 out of 10. It still would have to be cancled. So if your current plan was like that, it would have been canciled.

Earlier this year i heard that both houses passing a bill...for one year. So you get one year to find a new plan at least!

Ravenous
11-25-2013, 08:20 PM
Last I heard, both houses of congress fixid the issue of being forced to change your plan with an amendment..

The way they explanied it was obama care requining ten specific thigs. Not all plans ment all ten things. Say one ment 7 out of 10. It still would have to be cancled. So if your current plan was like that, it would have been canciled.

Earlier this year i heard that both houses passing a bill...for one year. So you get one year to find a new plan at least!
Only one year, eh? Did they fix the thing about people losing their doctors? If I lose my doctors it's a big deal as I'm CPP. I'll just hope I won't be effected.

MtnTruffle
11-25-2013, 09:22 PM
To anybody having trouble with the website: USE THE PHONE NUMBER! I was on hold for 15 seconds and applied in a half-hour. Easy as can be.

Static
11-25-2013, 11:22 PM
Wait, applied for what?

MtnTruffle
11-25-2013, 11:34 PM
Wait, applied for what?

Health Insurance. My current plan doesn't meet the new standards and expires in August. So...

1-800-318-2596

Narkotikon
11-25-2013, 11:46 PM
I don't know much about Obamacare, other than it's an expansion of Medicaid, or at least part of it.

But, in terms of SMT, yes, Medicaid will pay for SMT (although that might depend on your state since it's Medicaid) IF the doctor accepts it. That's the trick, finding a Sub doc to accept the insurance. Most like to say they won't accept it, so they can charge more. SMT is very much about money. My last Sub doctor would allow traditional neurology patients to use their Medicare / Medicaid, but not the Sub patients. I personally think that's unfair: you accept it for one, you should have to accept it for all. But, anyway, it will definitely cover the script, and the UA. The only current problem is that if you pay for the Sub using Medicaid, it has to be "reapproved" periodically, but you shouldn't have to worry about that if you have a decent doctor and they have a decent staff. It's their job to submit whatever paperwork is needed for reapproval.

Medicare is even better. It doesn't require reapproval. My Part-D plan lists Sub as a "non-narcotic" analgesic. I think that's kind of odd, because regular bupe / Subutex is listed as a "narcotic analgesic," so I guess it's the Narcan, but whatever. Next year they will be putting in place quota limits (of 3 8mg Subs per day), whereas now there is no limit, but I've never been scripted more than two, so that wouldn't affect me.

I am glad that people will be getting insurance, though. Those that don't already have it. I can see why it's irritating to those who currently like their insurance, and might have to change. I wouldn't like that either.

I still think everyone having insurance is good though. I think of it as an investment in the people of this country. If people have access to healthcare, you won't have as much costs from people with no insurance. Yes, overly simplified, but I'd rather have a socialized form of safety-net insurance to provide a level of minimum care than none at all. Right now, if you get sick and aren't eligible for Medicaid or other charity programs or have no money, you pretty much have to pray for a quick, relatively painless death.

MtnTruffle
11-25-2013, 11:52 PM
The ACA(Obamacare)is not simply an expansion of Medicaid. My state, for example, and most Red-leaning states have chosen NOT to expand Medicaid at all. Honestly, if anybody has any questions, use the number above. Super easy.

Static
11-26-2013, 12:04 AM
Thanks, man. I haven't really paid any attention to this Obamacare shit, so I have no idea what's going on. Hopefully there's some fucking dental insurance in there though. Cause man.. my teeth are FUCKED.

Ravenous
11-26-2013, 12:53 AM
Thanks, man. I haven't really paid any attention to this Obamacare shit, so I have no idea what's going on. Hopefully there's some fucking dental insurance in there though. Cause man.. my teeth are FUCKED.

Dental care for adults is not included.

I know that some dental care is included as apart of Medicaid. Some dentists will do charity work. You can get free dental work at some dental schools. You can work out a payment plan with a dentist over your bill. Also, dental insurance is pretty inexpensive if you want to look into that.

at&t
11-26-2013, 05:17 AM
> I want everyone to have healthcare but I don't want a crappier health plan and have to pay more money per month for it on top of it.

That Does seem to be the question, doesn't it.

Couldn't help myself. just a thought. :) . . . :/

Sincerely though spacechimp. Well done. Free drugs sounds does sound great.

Matt M
11-26-2013, 05:28 AM
Dental care for adults is not included.

I know that some dental care is included as apart of Medicaid. Some dentists will do charity work. You can get free dental work at some dental schools. You can work out a payment plan with a dentist over your bill. Also, dental insurance is pretty inexpensive if you want to look into that.

Dental insurance may be in expensive but it doesn't cover shit. If your not getting it from an employer it almost isn't worth it. Also I heard some plans do have dental included but I'm sure they are the top plans only the rich can afford.

FreedomOrBust
11-26-2013, 05:50 AM
Well, I do hope some of you'all get hooked up with some good maintenance drugs - something good needs to come out of this mess.

Personally, I've thought all along that the government should should just legalize all drugs, shut down the alphabets, and divert monies from prosecution to maintenance programs for addicts. If I was president, any adult would be able to walk into any pharmacy once a week, sign your name on the line, and get whatever amount of drugs of your choice, at little or no cost (including pharm-grade diacetylmorphine). There's no need for drug laws - they solve nothing and create many horrible problems.

But, I digress, as usual....I'm in favor of some sort of universal coverage, to the extent that people do not give up their constitutional rights. I think forcing people to buy over-priced, crappy insurance is not constitutional. Nor is it right to tell people which doctors they can and cannot see, which is what this law is effectively doing.

Why can't we just earmark a pile of tax dollars for people in need of health coverage? What the fuck is so hard about that? Everyone keeps their doctor, their health plan (if they want it). Those that have no access to coverage now would qualify for a share of the earmarked money. Simple. Problem solved. Next.

Garbage
11-26-2013, 06:04 AM
If you are getting less and paying more. Guess what that is. You're paying for all those who aren't paying at all. It's bullshit. The real solution is to run an economy where everyone can afford to take care of themselves.

hanna
11-26-2013, 06:33 AM
What I want to know is whether I can keep my insurance? Obama said not to worry; that anyone that liked their current coverage could keep it. Now we are finding out that that might not be the case. I hope I can keep mine. A lot of the Obamacare plans are crappier insurance than what I have and they cost more per month! Fuck that!

I want everyone to have healthcare but I don't want a crappier health plan and have to pay more money per month for it on top of it.

Edit: also Obama lied about being able to keep your doctor. A lot of people will lose their doctors and have to find new ones. Read about it in this Time magazine online article:
http://swampland.time.com/2013/11/19/you-can-keep-your-doctor-obamacares-next-broken-promise/

Its a mess. I think everyone will get their policy cancelled anyway and be forced to choose a new plan.

I was told if we go out of network there is no coverage. That includes getting into a car accident a county away. Dear zod, I hope not. That makes no sense to me.

My faith in uncle Sam will be all gone if the insurance issue turns out to be all lies.

FreedomOrBust
11-26-2013, 06:35 AM
If you are getting less and paying more. Guess what that is. You're paying for all those who aren't paying at all. It's bullshit. The real solution is to run an economy where everyone can afford to take care of themselves.

In a prefect world, yes. But in a corporo-fascist police state, where jobs are few, taxes and regulations are high, options are quite limited.

Truth is, if we stopped pouring trillions of dollars into foreign wars and homeland security programs, we just might have enough money to take care of people. But, in a police state, they would rather spy on you and imprison you first - and if there is any money left over, you might get healthcare.

spore
11-26-2013, 10:02 AM
I think the affordable care act is a cluster fuck and is only affordable in name only. The "fix" extending it for another year is just kicking the can down the road, also a lot of states are not going for it because things are already set in motion and to undo it now is unfeasible and the "fix" is undermining how the policy is supposed to work. The young and healthy were supposed to pay for and substitute the old and sick. But the website is fucked currently and young and healthy aren't lining up to subsidise the old and sick. Most people who have signed up are the older generations. But if the younger generations don't sign up the policy is not going to work the way it was intended and it will send the premiums through the roof and perhaps send this policy into a death spiral.
Since things are already set in motion it's literally impossible to bail out now. We were sold a lie, and were led to believe that it would work for everyone like some kind of magic wand being waved. We all had our optimistic viewpoint and idealist view of how it would work.

The website and rollout is not the problem, the problem is gambling that all the young and healthy would pay for and support the older and sick. And they say the fines would make the young sign up, but in certain cases it's cheaper to pay the fine rather than pay higher premiums because thus far the people who signed up are the older and more prone to sickness people. The policy all depends on the young and healthy signing up, supporting and having the balance where the young and healthy balance out and support the older and sick. I feel like I'm not explaining this right but I don't want to deny healthcare to our fellow Americans, I just think this policy is flawed and when I heard healthcare reform I thought it would be lowering the prices of procedures. Procedures are way to expensive. I think if people didn't go into healthcare to make a lot of money, that healthcare would be more attainable.

I hope this works because I don't wan't to deny fellow humans what they need done for their health. But at the same time I don't think Government has any business in healthcare, we all know how incompetent, corrupt and biased the Government is.


This doesn't concern me per se because I have insurance through SSI but I still like to be somewhat informed.
/End Rant

Jega
11-26-2013, 10:11 AM
So what would make you happy? A single payer system where everyone is by law bought in?

I think the dutch model of inforced health insurace with subsidies for those who can't pay for it is the best we'll get in the states.

Ravenous
11-26-2013, 12:53 PM
I think the affordable care act is a cluster fuck and is only affordable in name only. The "fix" extending it for another year is just kicking the can down the road, also a lot of states are not going for it because things are already set in motion and to undo it now is unfeasible and the "fix" is undermining how the policy is supposed to work. The young and healthy were supposed to pay for and substitute the old and sick. But the website is fucked currently and young and healthy aren't lining up to subsidise the old and sick. Most people who have signed up are the older generations. But if the younger generations don't sign up the policy is not going to work the way it was intended and it will send the premiums through the roof and perhaps send this policy into a death spiral.
Since things are already set in motion it's literally impossible to bail out now. We were sold a lie, and were led to believe that it would work for everyone like some kind of magic wand being waved. We all had our optimistic viewpoint and idealist view of how it would work.

The website and rollout is not the problem, the problem is gambling that all the young and healthy would pay for and support the older and sick. And they say the fines would make the young sign up, but in certain cases it's cheaper to pay the fine rather than pay higher premiums because thus far the people who signed up are the older and more prone to sickness people. The policy all depends on the young and healthy signing up, supporting and having the balance where the young and healthy balance out and support the older and sick. I feel like I'm not explaining this right but I don't want to deny healthcare to our fellow Americans, I just think this policy is flawed and when I heard healthcare reform I thought it would be lowering the prices of procedures. Procedures are way to expensive. I think if people didn't go into healthcare to make a lot of money, that healthcare would be more attainable.

I hope this works because I don't wan't to deny fellow humans what they need done for their health. But at the same time I don't think Government has any business in healthcare, we all know how incompetent, corrupt and biased the Government is.


This doesn't concern me per se because I have insurance through SSI but I still like to be somewhat informed.
/End Rant

Here you go:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

It's a new survey on what doctors think of Obamacare, lol

--- auto merge ---


Dental insurance may be in expensive but it doesn't cover shit. If your not getting it from an employer it almost isn't worth it. Also I heard some plans do have dental included but I'm sure they are the top plans only the rich can afford.

My dental insurance covers 100% of preventative care (cleanings, xrays, etc), 80% of fillings and extractions, etc, and 50% of things like root canals. Seems like a good deal for how little you pay.

Here's an article about how only children's dental care are included in Obamacare:
http://www.theridgefieldpress.com/23389/obamacare-and-dental-care-im-not-smiling/

Matt M
11-26-2013, 06:12 PM
Here you go:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

It's a new survey on what doctors think of Obamacare, lol

--- auto merge ---



My dental insurance covers 100% of preventative care (cleanings, xrays, etc), 80% of fillings and extractions, etc, and 50% of things like root canals. Seems like a good deal for how little you pay.

Here's an article about how only children's dental care are included in Obamacare:
http://www.theridgefieldpress.com/23389/obamacare-and-dental-care-im-not-smiling/
Sure but what is the max they will pay. At my work its 400. My wifes plan is better it pays 1500. The insurance plan where she works is the third best in this state. A root canal today is about 900 dollars. After the root canal you need a crown. After that your almost out of insurance and that was on one tooth.

Plus most dentists will rob you if you have insurance. When I didn't have insurance I paid 100 dollars for an extraction. When I had insurance I paid 90 after the insurance covered theirs.

I guess the insurance is good for those with good teeth. If you have bad teeth like me its a drop in the bucket.

Here is one of the first articles when you Google if dental insurance is worth it.
http://lifehacker.com/5916927/instead-of-buying-dental-insurance-you-may-want-to-consider-a-discount-plan

Ravenous
11-26-2013, 06:44 PM
Sure but what is the max they will pay. At my work its 400. My wifes plan is better it pays 1500. The insurance plan where she works is the third best in this state. A root canal today is about 900 dollars. After the root canal you need a crown. After that your almost out of insurance and that was on one tooth.

Plus most dentists will rob you if you have insurance. When I didn't have insurance I paid 100 dollars for an extraction. When I had insurance I paid 90 after the insurance covered theirs.

I guess the insurance is good for those with good teeth. If you have bad teeth like me its a drop in the bucket.

I'm not sure what the max is honestly. Sorry I can't answer that. I've never hit the maximum though and that's with once getting three fillings in one setting with a tank of nitrous. I also got a root canal and I didn't hit the maximum.

I do agree that there should be more options for indigent people who need dental care. My dentist does free dental care for anyone who needs it a few times a year. I know dentists who did this in my old city too. There should be more than this, Medicaid, dental schools and payment plans. That's not enough. Poor dental care can lead to heart disease. I remember when I was a kid, we were too poor to go to a dentist for check ups. We only went when something was really wrong. It's too bad. Luckily, my teeth were straight and I was able to get away with it. Once I got older I was able to start going regularly.

--- auto merge ---


No shit, they say I don't qualify for silver plan discounts since I'm eligible for Medi-Cal under the new regulations, which is one of the few types of insurance, if only, the local clinic accepts. Bonus! Now, to get on maintenance or not to get on maintenance, that is the question... Maybe it's still "to be or not to be," in a sense.

--- auto merge ---

* free to me, not to all you fine taxpayers

OP, congrats that you will be able to get your MMT. I'm sorry for derailing your thread. I can be bad about that. I'm still adjusting to some med changes too so my posts lately have tended to ramble and suck even more than usual. Apologies...

Matt M
11-26-2013, 06:56 PM
I'm not sure what the max is honestly. Sorry I can't answer that. I've never hit the maximum though and that's with once getting three fillings in one setting with a tank of nitrous. I also got a root canal and I didn't hit the maximum.

I do agree that there should be more options for indigent people who need dental care. My dentist does free dental care for anyone who needs it a few times a year. I know dentists who did this in my old city too. There should be more than this, Medicaid, dental schools and payment plans. That's not enough. Poor dental care can lead to heart disease. I remember when I was a kid, we were too poor to go to a dentist for check ups. We only went when something was really wrong. It's too bad. Luckily, my teeth were straight and I was able to get away with it. Once I got older I was able to start going regularly.

--- auto merge ---



OP, congrats that you will be able to get your MMT. I'm sorry for derailing your thread. I can be bad about that. I'm still adjusting to some med changes too so my posts lately have tended to ramble and suck even more than usual. Apologies...

I'm sorry too.

On topic. My clinic used to accept my insurance and it was pure bliss. I still had to pay but it was only 2 dollars a day instead of 12. I saved a ton of money for that 8 or so months.

Vico-Dan
11-26-2013, 07:43 PM
Obama put off implementing the ACA until AFTER the mid-terms because he knows that it's going to screw a very large majority of people.

Politicizing our Health Care? Naw, not him!

And I don't care if the so-called ACA pays for Methadone thru a clinic - I have a great PM doc that I pay $100 bucks every visit which is once a month and get scripted Methadone, Valium and Ambien, so my total cost is about $150 a month and I only have to go once a month. I would spend more on gas going to a clinic every day and I've been there and done that. Not to mention it's time consuming and having to deal with all the clinic drama/politics/bullshit.

It's a PITA to do for a couple of years until you get 6 take-homes and most clinics won't allow you to take Benzos or even Ambien.

I'll stick with my current doc even though I pay out of pocket. He knows my money is tight and he charges me on a sliding scale.

--- auto merge ---


In a prefect world, yes. But in a corporo-fascist police state, where jobs are few, taxes and regulations are high, options are quite limited.

Truth is, if we stopped pouring trillions of dollars into foreign wars and homeland security programs, we just might have enough money to take care of people. But, in a police state, they would rather spy on you and imprison you first - and if there is any money left over, you might get healthcare.

It wouldn't hurt if we started tapping our natural resources as well.

Norway did it and they are now one of the best country's to live in because they are extracting all of the oil they are sitting on and the people of Norway are benefiting from the money.

Norway's main job creator and moneymaker was in fishing, but when they discovered all the oil they were sitting on, they had to fight hard to tap it because all of the alarmists said it would ruin the fishing industry.

It didn't and now Norway is the 8th largest exporter of oil in the world and their people are well-taken care of.

If we tapped ANWR 10 years ago like we should have, we'd be reaping the benefits from it and it would help our economy as gas wouldn't be so expensive, which drives up the cost of everything else.

All that bullshit about ANWR being "Pristine" is a big lie. The oil is literally seeping up thru the ground there. US News & World Report had pics on their web site years ago. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/anwr/anwr2.htm

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/anwr/graphics/anwr2.jpg

We have a ton of Shale in ND as well and Natural Gas.

Not to mention all the oil off the coast of California and Alaska.

While we won't drill there, the Chinese will though and they set up rigs just outside of the International water line and drill diagonally.

The Dept. of Energy was created in the late '70's to look for ways to reduce foreign energy dependence.

Since then, our foreign energy dependence has doubled and the Dept of Energy has ballooned into a massive, multi-Billion dollar government entity.

We're pouring Trillions into foreign wars to protect our interests in overseas oil because without it, our economy would literally collapse in a very short time.

Instead of doing that, we should tap into our own resources and let those backwards fucks in the M.E. kill each other fighting over their 11-year old brides.

I guess the so-called environmentalists' only care about oil damaging our environment and not the environment in the Middle East.

It's insanity to continue to buy oil from people that want to kill us while banning domestic exploration and drilling.

We can take care of our own people much like Norway has and without environmental damage.

chopstix
11-26-2013, 08:02 PM
Haven't read the thread, fuck the haters. For the first time in 20 years I'll be able to have some pre-existing conditions (several, including GERD that causes me more pain on a daily basis that many people will ever realize).

I'm getting Medical which covers my MMT, and MANY MANY other issues looked into; shit that's needed attn for > half my life.

I'd love to have someone tell me, to my face, that it's not ABOUT FUCKING TIME I'm able to find some help. Inability to find proper medical help removed me from the work force when I was on the verge of landing a 50k job in 2005, starting wage.

The biggest problem in all this is the fucking GOP, not Obama. It rightly should be called Grumpy Obstructionist Care; not Obamacare - complete misnomer. But the fact is, Obama was the catalyst to MUCH needed reform in this country, and in the future he will be celebrated for it. I personally would love to shake his hand. Maybe someday I won't have to dig in the couch cushions at 3am for tums anymore, and soon I'll know wtf the growth on my neck is about, and about a dozen other things. And it's about GODDAMNED time.

Ravenous
11-26-2013, 08:17 PM
Haven't read the thread, fuck the haters. For the first time in 20 years I'll be able to have some pre-existing conditions (several, including GERD that causes me more pain on a daily basis that many people will ever realize).

I'm getting Medical which covers my MMT, and MANY MANY other issues looked into; shit that's needed attn for > half my life.

I'd love to have someone tell me, to my face, that it's not ABOUT FUCKING TIME I'm able to find some help. Inability to find proper medical help removed me from the work force when I was on the verge of landing a 50k job in 2005, starting wage.

The biggest problem in all this is the fucking GOP, not Obama. It rightly should be called Grumpy Obstructionist Care; not Obamacare - complete misnomer. But the fact is, Obama was the catalyst to MUCH needed reform in this country, and in the future he will be celebrated for it. I personally would love to shake his hand. Maybe someday I won't have to dig in the couch cushions at 3am for tums anymore, and soon I'll know wtf the growth on my neck is about, and about a dozen other things. And it's about GODDAMNED time.

I'm happy for everyone who is getting taken care of. I'm just scared that I will lose my pain management doctor (and my other doctors) as insurance companies are narrowing the doctors on their network lists due to this. I also do not want to lose my plan.

Delirious Nomad
11-26-2013, 08:59 PM
Obama put off implementing the ACA until AFTER the mid-terms because he knows that it's going to screw a very large majority of people.

Politicizing our Health Care? Naw, not him!

And I don't care if the so-called ACA pays for Methadone thru a clinic - I have a great PM doc that I pay $100 bucks every visit which is once a month and get scripted Methadone, Valium and Ambien, so my total cost is about $150 a month and I only have to go once a month. I would spend more on gas going to a clinic every day and I've been there and done that. Not to mention it's time consuming and having to deal with all the clinic drama/politics/bullshit.

It's a PITA to do for a couple of years until you get 6 take-homes and most clinics won't allow you to take Benzos or even Ambien.

I'll stick with my current doc even though I pay out of pocket. He knows my money is tight and he charges me on a sliding scale.

--- auto merge ---



It wouldn't hurt if we started tapping our natural resources as well.

Norway did it and they are now one of the best country's to live in because they are extracting all of the oil they are sitting on and the people of Norway are benefiting from the money.

Norway's main job creator and moneymaker was in fishing, but when they discovered all the oil they were sitting on, they had to fight hard to tap it because all of the alarmists said it would ruin the fishing industry.

It didn't and now Norway is the 8th largest exporter of oil in the world and their people are well-taken care of.

If we tapped ANWR 10 years ago like we should have, we'd be reaping the benefits from it and it would help our economy as gas wouldn't be so expensive, which drives up the cost of everything else.

All that bullshit about ANWR being "Pristine" is a big lie. The oil is literally seeping up thru the ground there. US News & World Report had pics on their web site years ago. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/anwr/anwr2.htm

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/anwr/graphics/anwr2.jpg

We have a ton of Shale in ND as well and Natural Gas.

Not to mention all the oil off the coast of California and Alaska.

While we won't drill there, the Chinese will though and they set up rigs just outside of the International water line and drill diagonally.

The Dept. of Energy was created in the late '70's to look for ways to reduce foreign energy dependence.

Since then, our foreign energy dependence has doubled and the Dept of Energy has ballooned into a massive, multi-Billion dollar government entity.

We're pouring Trillions into foreign wars to protect our interests in overseas oil because without it, our economy would literally collapse in a very short time.

Instead of doing that, we should tap into our own resources and let those backwards fucks in the M.E. kill each other fighting over their 11-year old brides.

I guess the so-called environmentalists' only care about oil damaging our environment and not the environment in the Middle East.

It's insanity to continue to buy oil from people that want to kill us while banning domestic exploration and drilling.

We can take care of our own people much like Norway has and without environmental damage.




It's ironic that you say we should model our ways after Norway's, because their way is helping their people. You do know that Norway is a Social-Democracy, right? They have National Health Care-like every other country in Europe. They also have free education-College included. They are 'Socialist'-just want to clarify that you understand this.

Personally, I think 'socialism' under a Social-Democracy is a very good thing. Germany is that way as well- a free market economy with A lot of social programs. National Health Care. Free Education. 6 weeks paid vacation per year. 10 more paid holidays on top of that. Unlimited Unemployment and Government Paid cross/re-training.

The thing is, they pay about 40% in taxes to have a system like that, and the wealthy DO NOT get to deduct and write-off everything, so instead of the wealthy paying about 15% in taxes when it's all said and done, they actually have to pay 40 fucking percent.

That's why a system like that would NEVER fly here. No Fucking way are the wealthy in America going to agree to pay 40% in taxes- whether it's better for the country or not.

They'll just say it will kill jobs and the public will eat it up like a dog eats a scrap piece of grizzle that is thrown on the floor.

Narkotikon
11-26-2013, 11:49 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I live in a very pro-republican area. It's not a particularly wealthy area. Just a typical, small-town. But, most people here (and in SW OH in general) are Republican. It's always fascinated me that some of the people who would benefit the most from nationalized programs like healthcare are the ones who buy into the GOP's message about those programs destroying the country, jobs, etc. I mean, you'll see people living in squalor in trailers and shit buying into that Republican message. I just don't get it.

I'm a Democrat, and my family are democrats, but honestly the only reason I think my parents are/were was because my father and his parents grew up when the Democrats were Dixiecrats, more like Republicans are now. I think my mother is simply because she really fucking liked Clinton and Kennedy.

Zoops
11-27-2013, 12:14 AM
This happens all the time. We get a VERY interesting thread going on, someone who's quite high, stoned, mellow-anesthesia'ed out, et cetera mah frey-ands, well, dat parti-cular guy decidIo que quiere hacer una trampita for everybody, and makes a cogent and insightful reply that (hopefully) nobody else has said in the thread. But, please forgive me on what particular nuance is being discussed in this thread at present, please forgive me "derailing the subjete, meme, et cetera usted, or tema, ya understand, everybuddy. (man I can't wait to get my subs refilled tomorrow morning early asap - shit - now it's THIS morning woohoo. 'bout 3, or 4 hours ta go til my payroll hit. I been a lil' squirrely lately, ok, skmoking up a lot of good good herbage, little to no alcohol, AND buprenorphine). It's good to have lighthearted high going on from time to time. straight 100 % OPIATES are so damn serious. No mean? I mean look at my avatar picture. That's what I really look like people. I am a secret project from the US governmental militarilitly minisitereieas. Developed as a junky suPER Gens. to prey on the minds of so-psychiatry, and develop fiendish new punishments from the heart of Satan against humanity."

So my take on the whole thing here any ways is that ObAmAcArE may eventually decide that either Buprenorphine is supposed to be used versus methadone may be for some degree of actually behind the scenes medelling in our society-nomics and shit. I mean if a smaller population of people were to be on methadone if it became (as everyone knows it eventually would have been) the public health implications of increasing percentages of people in US society generally to have complications (physical, corporeal, bodily) complications secondary to acute narcotic intake, including acute incidence of a certain degree of respiratory depression deaths and DUI MVAs indidences, it would be better for the Government to secretly, or at least steer in such a calculated way, in such a subtly ecomonic nudge to the company in question, through tax breaks or something even more subtle, in the effort (knowingly at least, maybe just to make a buck anyway, but they knew the implication in terms of better public health.

I don't know what the point of all that rambling was, but anyways, doubt anyone read it.

'ite.

Narkotikon
11-27-2013, 12:19 AM
This happens all the time. We get a VERY interesting thread going on, someone who's quite high, stoned, mellow-anesthesia'ed out, et cetera mah frey-ands, well, dat parti-cular guy decidIo que quiere hacer una trampita for everybody, and makes a cogent and insightful reply that (hopefully) nobody else has said in the thread. But, please forgive me on what particular nuance is being discussed in this thread at present, please forgive me "derailing the subjete, meme, et cetera usted, or tema, ya understand, everybuddy. (man I can't wait to get my subs refilled tomorrow morning early asap - shit - now it's THIS morning woohoo. 'bout 3, or 4 hours ta go til my payroll hit. I been a lil' squirrely lately, ok, skmoking up a lot of good good herbage, little to no alcohol, AND buprenorphine). It's good to have lighthearted high going on from time to time. straight 100 % OPIATES are so damn serious. No mean? I mean look at my avatar picture. That's what I really look like people. I am a secret project from the US governmental militarilitly minisitereieas. Developed as a junky suPER Gens. to prey on the minds of so-psychiatry, and develop fiendish new punishments from the heart of Satan against humanity."

So my take on the whole thing here any ways is that ObAmAcArE may eventually decide that either Buprenorphine is supposed to be used versus methadone may be for some degree of actually behind the scenes medelling in our society-nomics and shit. I mean if a smaller population of people were to be on methadone if it became (as everyone knows it eventually would have been) the public health implications of increasing percentages of people in US society generally to have complications (physical, corporeal, bodily) complications secondary to acute narcotic intake, including acute incidence of a certain degree of respiratory depression deaths and DUI MVAs indidences, it would be better for the Government to secretly, or at least steer in such a calculated way, in such a subtly ecomonic nudge to the company in question, through tax breaks or something even more subtle, in the effort (knowingly at least, maybe just to make a buck anyway, but they knew the implication in terms of better public health.

I don't know what the point of all that rambling was, but anyways, doubt anyone read it.

'ite.

When did you study Latin?

Ravenous
11-27-2013, 12:20 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I live in a very pro-republican area. It's not a particularly wealthy area. Just a typical, small-town. But, most people here (and in SW OH in general) are Republican. It's always fascinated me that some of the people who would benefit the most from nationalized programs like healthcare are the ones who buy into the GOP's message about those programs destroying the country, jobs, etc. I mean, you'll see people living in squalor in trailers and shit buying into that Republican message. I just don't get it.

I'm a Democrat, and my family are democrats, but honestly the only reason I think my parents are/were was because my father and his parents grew up when the Democrats were Dixiecrats, more like Republicans are now. I think my mother is simply because she really fucking liked Clinton and Kennedy.

I can explain it to you. I have people like that in my family. They see themselves as working really hard for what little they have. Sometimes they will work two jobs and barely make it but they are too proud to accept welfare. They think if they can do it other people should too. They see the people on welfare being able to live not far from their level even though they bust their ass and they get resentful. So They think the system is broken. Does that make any sense? Note: I'm not saying this is my view! I'm trying to describe why I think some people who are poor vote like that.

Also, I think some of it may be racial divisiveness (you know, "tough on crime republicans locking up more black people) and religion. Political leaders have always tried to divide the poor whites and blacks. That way they wouldn't realize how much they had in common and join together...

Narkotikon
11-27-2013, 12:26 AM
I can explain it to you. I have people like that in my family. They see themselves as working really hard for what little they have. Sometimes they will work two jobs and barely make it but they are too proud to accept welfare. They think if they can do it other people should too. They see the people on welfare being able to live not far from their level even though they bust their ass and they get resentful. So They think the system is broken. Does that make any sense? Note: I'm not saying this is my view! I'm trying to describe why I think some people who are poor vote like that.

Also, I think some of it may be racial divisiveness (you know, "tough on crime republicans locking up more black people) and religion. Political leaders have always tried to divide the poor whites and blacks. That way they wouldn't realize how much they had in common and join together...

That makes sense. But at what point do they get over that? Would those people rather starve or go without medical treatment just to keep their pride?

I'm more of a Commie Pinko Liberal, so that thinking just doesn't calculate to me.

Edit:

Do they also believe in that outdated Protestant work-ethic? I swear, yes, I think people need to work to survive or if they just find it enjoyable, but I don't think people are born to work. Some people around here act like having a strong work-ethic means this: you're born, you go to school, you work, you retire for a few years, you die. That's a fucked up life-cycle IMO. I don't believe people were born to work, but rather should view work as a means of surviving / getting by in this world. I don't particularly like laissez faire capitalism, but until someone creates a new form of economics, money is a necessity. I just think it creates a ton of imbalance, and then strife and discorde, and a lot of politicians like to use it as some great magic trick, distracting people with outdated mores with one hand, while they dip into the bank with the other hand.

Actually, a lot of politicians remind me of Roman governors sent to provinces in the Republian and Imperial periods. It was a political role, but everyone knew the main point was to line their pocket books by striping the provinces dry. Everyone wanted Egypt, the grain-basket of the Roman world. You'd spend your fortune campaigning for consul, then after you were consul for a year, you'd be granted a governorship in a (hopefully rich) province to recoup your losses.

Ravenous
11-27-2013, 12:50 AM
That makes sense. But at what point do they get over that? Would those people rather starve or go without medical treatment just to keep their pride?

I'm more of a Commie Pinko Liberal, so that thinking just doesn't calculate to me.

Edit:

Do they also believe in that outdated Protestant work-ethic? I swear, yes, I think people need to work to survive or if they just find it enjoyable, but I don't think people are born to work. Some people around here act like having a strong work-ethic means this: you're born, you go to school, you work, you retire for a few years, you die. That's a fucked up life-cycle IMO. I don't believe people were born to work, but rather should view work as a means of surviving / getting by in this world. I don't particularly like laissez faire capitalism, but until someone creates a new form of economics, money is a necessity. I just think it creates a ton of imbalance, and then strife and discorde, and a lot of politicians like to use it as some great magic trick, distracting people with outdated mores with one hand, while they dip into the bank with the other hand.

Actually, a lot of politicians remind me of Roman governors sent to provinces in the Republian and Imperial periods. It was a political role, but everyone knew the main point was to line their pocket books by striping the provinces dry. Everyone wanted Egypt, the grain-basket of the Roman world. You'd spend your fortune campaigning for consul, then after you were consul for a year, you'd be granted a governorship in a (hopefully rich) province to recoup your losses.

I don't know if they ever get over it. I'm sure if it was a matter of life and death then they might reconsider. However, they think if you're on welfare you shouldn't spend money on cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, have more babies, etc. Since you're taking money from other people supposedly (taxpayers). I have known people who have changed their viewpoint on these issues due to something happening to them. They are few and far between though. The people in my family I have known like this are in my extended family.

I guess a lot of lower middle class people don't understand where their taxes go. They live in the same neighborhoods as people who are receiving government aid and if those people are very irresponsible then it can sting if you're hardworking I guess. But, yeah, I usually don't talk politics with these people much (whether in my family or not).

Narkotikon
11-27-2013, 12:56 AM
I don't know if they ever get over it. I'm sure if it was a matter of life and death then they might reconsider. However, they think if you're on welfare you shouldn't spend money on cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, have more babies, etc. Since you're taking money from other people supposedly (taxpayers). I have known people who have changed their viewpoint on these issues due to something happening to them. They are few and far between though. The people in my family I have known like this are in my extended family.

I guess a lot of lower middle class people don't understand where their taxes go. They live in the same neighborhoods as people who are receiving government aid and if those people are very irresponsible then it can sting if you're hardworking I guess. But, yeah, I usually don't talk politics with these people much.

Thanks for the explanation. The thing about the taxes is funny to me, because just because someone gets SSDI or SSI doesn't necessarily mean they don't pay taxes. It depends on the amount they receive, if they do part-time work on the side (which is allowed), etc. So the blanket rumor that all people on assistance don't pay taxes is kind of absurd to me. Plus, I don't really have a problem with SSDI. It's money that people paid into the system, why shouldn't they have it?

I have people like this in my extended family too, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. My mother's brother and his wife are like that. He's dead now (I didn't like him), and his wife is now retired, but won't get / allow herself to receive social security even though she's of age. That's just insane to me. It's like, you do realize you're recouping the money they've been taking out of your pay checks for years, right? I dunno what she thinks.

Edit: She's an evangelical / "born again Christian" who, when I was 17, two years after my dad passed away, persuaded me to go to some freaky-deaky church thing with her, where everyone was hollering, jumping up and down, speaking in "tounges" (sounded like jibber-jabber to me), and banging on tambourines. One member then asked why I was there, and she told them about how my dad passed away, and the person says "oh, by saying what you said, you allowed Satan to claim your father." I'm thinking to myself, WTF, you dumbass heartless person. Who says that to a minor?

So, yeah, I have absolutely no idea what in the hell she thinks. She bought me a bible once, which I promptly tore up and destroyed in front of her. I don't really like her either.

Ravenous
11-27-2013, 01:00 AM
Thanks for the explanation. The thing about the taxes is funny to me, because just because someone gets SSDI or SSI doesn't necessarily mean they don't pay taxes. It depends on the amount they receive, if they do part-time work on the side (which is allowed), etc. So the blanket rumor that all people on assistance don't pay taxes is kind of absurd to me. Plus, I don't really have a problem with SSDI. It's money that people paid into the system, why shouldn't they have it?

I have people like this in my extended family too, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. My mother's brother and his wife are like that. He's dead now (I didn't like him), and his wife is now retired, but won't get / allow herself to receive social security even though she's of age. That's just insane to me. It's like, you do realize you're recouping the money they've been taking out of your pay checks for years, right? I dunno what she thinks.

It's the redneck side of my family, lol. I've never heard them bitch about disability though, only welfare. Of course I just try to tune them out so I could have missed it.

Zoops
11-27-2013, 01:14 AM
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ******* big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ******* fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the f*** you are on Sunday night. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ******* junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?


All I'm sayin is that it makes someone go from this ^^^ to this : by switching from methadone to buprenorphine.



I'm going to change. This is the last of that sort of thing. Now I'm cleaning up and I'm moving on, going straight and choosing life. I'm looking forward to it already. I'm gonna be just like you. The job, the family, the ******* big television. The washing machine, the car, the compact disc and electric tin opener, good health, low cholesterol, dental insurance, mortgage, starter home, leisure wear, luggage, three piece suite, DIY, game shows, junk food, children, walks in the park, nine to five, good at golf, washing the car, choice of sweaters, family Christmas, indexed pension, tax exemption, clearing gutters, getting by, looking ahead, the day you die

(Mark Renton, Trainspotting)

Narkotikon
11-27-2013, 01:19 AM
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ******* big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ******* fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the f*** you are on Sunday night. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ******* junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?


All I'm sayin is that it makes someone go from this ^^^ to this : by switching from methadone to buprenorphine.



I'm going to change. This is the last of that sort of thing. Now I'm cleaning up and I'm moving on, going straight and choosing life. I'm looking forward to it already. I'm gonna be just like you. The job, the family, the ******* big television. The washing machine, the car, the compact disc and electric tin opener, good health, low cholesterol, dental insurance, mortgage, starter home, leisure wear, luggage, three piece suite, DIY, game shows, junk food, children, walks in the park, nine to five, good at golf, washing the car, choice of sweaters, family Christmas, indexed pension, tax exemption, clearing gutters, getting by, looking ahead, the day you die

(Mark Renton, Trainspotting)

Which is which? Which paragraph is the methadone scenario, and which is the buprenorphine? Wouldn't it depend on the person and on how well they do on each med? I don't think every opiate addict will do well on either methadone or bupe. I think several other factors, like DOC, ROA, length of use, level of responsibility, etc. all come into play. Some will do better on one than the other, some like neither. Some choose to use methadone or SMT because they don't like the game associated with illegal drug use, even though they like the drugs, and find contentment in just being able to be well.

Ravenous
11-27-2013, 01:25 AM
I did great on methadone. I even weaned off of it and was sober for over two years until getting chronic pain. Then I went into pain management. However, I worked when I was on MMT. I even went to school. I had relationships. It worked well for me.

Count Zero
11-27-2013, 08:31 AM
It's ironic that you say we should model our ways after Norway's, because their way is helping their people. You do know that Norway is a Social-Democracy, right? They have National Health Care-like every other country in Europe. They also have free education-College included. They are 'Socialist'-just want to clarify that you understand this.

Personally, I think 'socialism' under a Social-Democracy is a very good thing. Germany is that way as well- a free market economy with A lot of social programs. National Health Care. Free Education. 6 weeks paid vacation per year. 10 more paid holidays on top of that. Unlimited Unemployment and Government Paid cross/re-training.

The thing is, they pay about 40% in taxes to have a system like that, and the wealthy DO NOT get to deduct and write-off everything, so instead of the wealthy paying about 15% in taxes when it's all said and done, they actually have to pay 40 fucking percent.

That's why a system like that would NEVER fly here. No Fucking way are the wealthy in America going to agree to pay 40% in taxes- whether it's better for the country or not.

They'll just say it will kill jobs and the public will eat it up like a dog eats a scrap piece of grizzle that is thrown on the floor.

Quoted for truth, 100%. Make the rich pay the same tax % as the rest of us, and we get the budget balanced, deficit erased, problem solved.

danny
11-27-2013, 09:05 AM
something that AMAZED me, the us spends more per head per capita on healthcare than the uk BEFORE obamacare was instituted, and we have universal healthcare...someone is making stupid money thru healthcare off the american taxpayer, me personally im amazed the biggest economy in the world doesnt have universal healthcare but to then compound it by actually costing you more, proves applying market economics to healthcare just flat out doesnt work...some things are 'NOT FOR PROFIT'...

all these right wing twats over here that are trying to chip away at the nhs need shooting...

Delirious Nomad
11-27-2013, 09:28 AM
something that AMAZED me, the us spends more per head per capita on healthcare than the uk BEFORE obamacare was instituted, and we have universal healthcare...someone is making stupid money thru healthcare off the american taxpayer, me personally im amazed the biggest economy in the world doesnt have universal healthcare but to then compound it by actually costing you more, proves applying market economics to healthcare just flat out doesnt work...some things are 'NOT FOR PROFIT'...

all these right wing twats over here that are trying to chip away at the nhs need shooting...

Just make sure that you fight those right-wing twats o'er there Danny, or they will take away everything from the NHS, and your Health Care Costs will skyrockket, and all the money will go into those right-wing twats's wallets.

From my experience, the truth is that the right-wing cares about one thing: MONEY. Everything else coming out of their mouths is pure bullshit. Just my opinion.

Count Zero
11-27-2013, 03:46 PM
That's their #1 motivation no doubt but a close second for a lot of them is forcing their religious agenda on US citizens through legislation and the power of elected office. You have anti gay legislation (Cuccinelli trying to revive previous anti sodomy legislation in VA that had been struck down by the supeme court-legislation that would also have criminalized plenty of very common hetero behavior too), anti contraception legislation ("personhood" laws that outlaw any form of birth control that works after the sperm & the egg meet) and anti abortion legislation of every imaginable sort (forcing all patients to undergo unneccessary invasive transvaginal ultrasounds, shutting PP clinics if all doctors don't have admitting privleges at local hospitals, shutting PP clinics if they don't conform to various hygenic or other arbitrary standards made up by whoever is proposing the legislation, the list goes on and on...)
There is lots of connections between the religious fanatic extreme right wing and the insanely greedy extreme right wing but I think mainly the former does the bidding of the latter as long as they are allowed to try and force their religous agenda on anybody and everybody. In short, religion is like a penis:
It is OK to have one.
It is even OK to be proud of it.
But do not take it out and wave it around in public,
And do not try to shove it down peoples' throats.

hanna
11-27-2013, 05:25 PM
something that AMAZED me, the us spends more per head per capita on healthcare than the uk BEFORE obamacare was instituted, and we have universal healthcare...someone is making stupid money thru healthcare off the american taxpayer, me personally im amazed the biggest economy in the world doesnt have universal healthcare but to then compound it by actually costing you more, proves applying market economics to healthcare just flat out doesnt work...some things are 'NOT FOR PROFIT'...

all these right wing twats over here that are trying to chip away at the nhs need shooting...

Danny, there are expensive procedures here that do very little to extend life but cost a fortune. I recall reading one procedure cost $100000 to extend life 2-3 months. When you consider markups, a 50 cent Advil gets billed out at $20 its no wonder we spend 2x as much as the UK with questionable results.

Vico-Dan
11-28-2013, 03:02 PM
It's ironic that you say we should model our ways after Norway's, because their way is helping their people. You do know that Norway is a Social-Democracy, right? They have National Health Care-like every other country in Europe. They also have free education-College included. They are 'Socialist'-just want to clarify that you understand this.

Personally, I think 'socialism' under a Social-Democracy is a very good thing. Germany is that way as well- a free market economy with A lot of social programs. National Health Care. Free Education. 6 weeks paid vacation per year. 10 more paid holidays on top of that. Unlimited Unemployment and Government Paid cross/re-training.

The thing is, they pay about 40% in taxes to have a system like that, and the wealthy DO NOT get to deduct and write-off everything, so instead of the wealthy paying about 15% in taxes when it's all said and done, they actually have to pay 40 fucking percent.

That's why a system like that would NEVER fly here. No Fucking way are the wealthy in America going to agree to pay 40% in taxes- whether it's better for the country or not.

They'll just say it will kill jobs and the public will eat it up like a dog eats a scrap piece of grizzle that is thrown on the floor.

Yes, but you can't compare Norway or even Germany to the US - the problem with implementing Socialism in the US is that too many people would just want other people to support them. The reason it works in Norway is because of the income from being the 8th largest oil exporter in the world and low unemployment, not from high-taxation.

Even with the money from oil exports, Norwegians have a strong work ethic and just 3.5% Unemployment.

Germany was at about 12% Unemployment up to a few years ago, but their economy is in recovery and their Unemployment Rate has fallen by quite a bit over the last few years.

And the wealthy in America pay far more than 40% in taxes already, not 15%

This graph from the IRS is a bit dated, but it shows who's carrying the tax load in the US:

http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess%20Who%20Really%20Pays%20the%20Taxes.jpg

And that's just Federal taxes and doesn't include State taxes (9% in my County in Calif.), homeowner taxes, gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes, etc...

Even when I was working and making under 50k per year, I was ending up with about 60% of my income after State, Federal, local, gas and other taxes.

As for the US, we already have Socialism as non and low-earners are voting for their own interests and not in the best interest of the US as a whole.

The result is Trillion dollar deficits and people that are not ambitious are voting for who ever will promise/give them the most freebies and goodies at the expense of others.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" has become "Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you"

Today I will spend Thanksgiving with my "adopted" family as I have none. My adopted "Grandfather" is 91 years old and lied about his age so he could join the Navy to fight in WW2

How many 16 year olds would do that today in a similar war?

A girl I know from a wealthy family will be spending today feeding the poor and the needy instead of spending most of the day with her family. Or camped out for Black Friday.
That kind of thing is getting rare these days as we've become a country of takers and not givers. Look at all the idiots camped out for Black Friday sales so they can save a few bucks.

How about giving them a 50$ Gift Card for everyday they spend helping those less fortunate than camping out in front of a retail store for 3 days so they can save $100 on an LCD TV?

No one wants to sacrifice for the good of the country as a whole these days. It's all about "What's in it for me" and the entitlement mentality is poisoning our country and is also personally debilitating. Not to mention self-centered. And the people taking the most cry the loudest when asked to do something in exchange for the numerous entitlements they are receiving.

Having more kids so someone can get more government benefits has sadly become a "career" for many.
Too many people have a "Why should I work when I can sleep in and not have to go to work when the Government (working taxpayers) will support me?" attitude.

I can guarantee that you won't find that attitude in Germany or in Norway. Maybe a few exceptions, but not nearly on the level of that of the US

And with the US having the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world, raising taxes will just mean more spending by the government. The US Government will always spend more then they take in. And raising corporate taxes will merely be passed on to the consumer.

Example: The Dept. of Energy was created in 1977 to figure out ways to reduce foreign energy dependence.
As mentioned since then, our dependency on foreign oil has doubled while the Dept. of Energy has grown from 20,000 employees to about 120,000 employees today.

So not only has our dependency doubled, but the Department to reduce our dependency has grown by 6x as many employees. And what have they accomplished?
Nothing other than securing a cushy job for themselves with an early retirement age where they can collect a fat pension and great benefits.

The bottom line is, if we want a Norway-like Social Democracy, we have to become energy independent so we can fund National Health-Care, taking care of the sick, the elderly, the homeless. No-cost higher education, More paid sick days and vacation days, etc...

We also have to have low-unemployment as we can't afford to continue to have a deficit that is soon going to exceed the GDP and also reduce SS payments.

But none of that will happen as long as politicians refuse to allow us to reduce our energy dependence, refuse to let us tap into our own natural resources (which would also create jobs) continue to reward those that refuse to work with Section 8 Housing, GA cash benefits, EBT/Food Stamps, Free health care like CMSP, Assistance with Utilities, free landline/cell phones, etc...while we punish those that work with higher taxes and income redistribution schemes like the ACA that is increasing premiums and deductibles for a large majority or people so that a small minority of people can pay less.

How much longer can America survive at this rate? Not much longer. As mentioned, SS will soon go broke, the annual deficit will soon exceed annual GDP and when we become like Greece and SS goes broke and entitlements are reduced or cut, the shit is going to hit the fan.

Printing money and taxing one half of the population to support the other half is a fast road to national bankruptcy.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but Socialism has been a demonstrable failure over and over and over because eventually, they run out of other people's money and it only encourages people to "go on the dole" instead of working.

Then you end up with Greece (28% Unemployment) Spain (27% Unemployment) France (11% Unemployment and rising) Belgium (9% Unemployment and rising) Hungary (10% Unemployment and rising) and so on.

Norway is an exception for the reason mentioned above. Germany had high unemployment (12%) for years but it has been dropping recently.

I'm very compassionate towards those that have been dealt a bad hand in life, and I'm all for government (taxpayers) helping them.

But I have little to no compassion or patience for people that make a career out of being supported by others when they are just too damn lazy to work and choose not, but they get Section 8 Housing, EBT/Food Stamps, GA Cash Payments, CMSP (Free Medical/Dental program here in California) Utility Assistance, free Cell Phones/Lifelines, up to 99 Weeks of Unemployment Benefits, Scamming SSDI/SSI, etc...and people that work get to pay for those with the attitude of "Why should I get up early in the morning and work all day? That's for suckers!"

I'm 54 years old and after performing skilled physical labor for nearly 35 years, I'm left with multiple impairments and a broken down body. I have to take Methadone for CP. Yet when I went to the SS office, what do I see? A bunch of people in their 20's filing for SSDI/SSI for things like ADHD, PTSD from being in Jail/Prison and even alcoholism/drug-addiction.

I have a friend that has worked for the County in Social Services for about 30 years and will retire soon with a very nice pension and benefits package at age 55. (Another thing bankrupting our economy) He says 20 years ago, applicants for the above mentioned benifits were people that have been victims of unfortunate circumstances. These days, 80% of applicants are from South of the Border and are gaming the system - collecting benefits under one or more ID's (The fingerprint requirement was removed a few years ago) and in addition, some also work under a different set of ID's so they make money working and also gaming the system by getting benefits in multiple names. A lot of that money gets sent "back home" so it's being siphoned off here in the US and sent to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, etc...

Why is our Country broke? Because we refuse to tap our own natural resources and become energy independent, and because we have created an environment that rewards the lazy and those that choose not to work while punishing those that are ambitious and choose to work. How much longer will that last? Not much.

Social Security is going broke, and our annual deficit will soon exceed our annual GDP. That's when we have a situation like Greece or Spain.
I read an article and IDK if it's true, but apparently some people in Greece are purposely infecting themselves with HIV so they get extra Government benefits.

My old company is likely going to close up shop because they can't afford to pay 2x as much in health care premiums for their employee's, or they will have to cut them back to under 30 hours per week. Word is, the owner is tired of being over-regulated and over-taxed and will close up shop after 25 years. More lost jobs.
California is the 48th least business-friendly state in the union. No wonder companies are moving out of state.

Yes, we should model our system after Norway's, but only if we lift over-regulation and becoming energy independent and tapping our own natural resources.

Alaska residents get a nice check every year because of oil exploration and drilling. Imagine if we actually started doing what Norway has done?

And we wouldn't have to fight wars to protect our economic interests. Because if we didn't, you know damn well those fucks in the Middle East would screw us just like they did in the 70's. Remember double-digit unemployment and double-digit inflation? 21% interest rates on a car loan? Gas lines? Only being able to get gas on and "odd or even" day and having to get up at 4AM to get wait in line for 2-3 hours for your ration of 10 gallons of gas, depending on your License Plate number?

Since then, our dependency on foreign oil has gone from 35% to 70%

Everyone was crying when Exxon made a 13 Billion dollar profit one year, but what the media didn't mention is that they invested 135 Billion to make that 13 Billion, and that they paid 33 Billion in taxes on 13 Billion in profit.

Here in California and thru out the US the Government gets far more money on the purchase of a gallon of gas than the oil companies. That's why we pay nearly $4.00 a gallon in California because about .50 cents a gallon is in taxes, one of the highest on the country.

Continuing to print money, rewarding the unambitious while punishing those that work isn't the answer, and when the Government has to reduce SS payment and reduce or even cut many entitlements to those that choose not to work, that's when things are going to get really ugly.

And it's going to happen sooner than later. They can only kick the can down the road only so far.

--- auto merge ---


I can explain it to you. I have people like that in my family. They see themselves as working really hard for what little they have. Sometimes they will work two jobs and barely make it but they are too proud to accept welfare. They think if they can do it other people should too. They see the people on welfare being able to live not far from their level even though they bust their ass and they get resentful. So They think the system is broken. Does that make any sense? Note: I'm not saying this is my view! I'm trying to describe why I think some people who are poor vote like that.

Also, I think some of it may be racial divisiveness (you know, "tough on crime republicans locking up more black people) and religion. Political leaders have always tried to divide the poor whites and blacks. That way they wouldn't realize how much they had in common and join together...

The only political leaders trying to divide whites and blacks are the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, all the while, they are lining their pockets with a lot of money playing the race hustler game.

And if most people had that anti-work attitude, who would pay the taxes to pay for welfare and other entitlements like Section 8 Housing, Food Stamps, Assistance to pay for Utilities, free cell phones/landline phones, CMSP ( basically free health care in California)?

Nothing is free - Someone had to work and sacrifice so others that don't can have those things.

We're reaching the point where one half of the population is basically supporting the other half.

And Blacks are locked up more than Whites because they commit more crimes than Whites.
Blaming poverty, racism, or anything other than the person that commits the crime is BS. Actions have consequences. Everyone makes their own choices.
And there is ton of evidence to prove that blacks commit far more crimes than any other race in the US
That's not racist, that's fact.

Again, the mentality of entitlement is debilitating. Having the "someone else will do it" attitude doesn't work when they're aren't enough of "someone else"
Same with the "It wasn't my fault" BS. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

No wonder our country is printing money to avoid bankruptcy and SS is going to go broke.
Meanwhile, the cost of everything continues to rise.

Hopefully, SS, which I have paid into for nearly 35 years will still be solvent when I retire and remains solvent so I can move the hell out of this country as it's circling the drain.

Yes, I'm entitled to that money because I got up early every day and busted my ass for my entire adult life, often in a lot of pain due to the nature of my work and payed into my retirement while other people slept during the day, partied at night and lived off of the labor of others.

Fuck that shit. I busted my ass for 35 years because I wanted a better life for myself than to just barely get by and depending on others to take care of me like an infant.

I'm surprised some of these people even know how to or can wipe their own asses.

Then when I go into the SS Admin. to file my SSDI claim because I have numerous impairments from 35 years of performing skilled physical labor and I see these punks in their 20's thinking they are entitled to SSDI/SSI because they have allegedly have PTSD because they did 6 Months County time for a choice that they made or some other BS "Disability

Then they laugh and brag how they are gaming the system and how people that work are suckers.

Yeah, fuck that shit too and fuck them.

Then there are the one's that get denied and claim "Racism" even though they don't have a chance in hell of being awarded SSDI

Yeah, fuck them too and they can start taking some responsibility for themselves and their situation.

And for most people, welfare wasn't meant to be a "career choice" - it was meant to help people get back on their feet after being victims of circumstances beyond their control.

Yet we have generations of welfare families that have figured out that it's far less work to scam the system and spit out kids with absentee Father's then it is to work.

Then they wonder why their kids grow up to be lazy hoodlums that end up incarcerated.

My friend that works for Social Services says that many of these people are demanding and want their check, EBT card, Sect. 8 housing and everything else right fuckin' now and if they don't get it right away, they raise a big stink, play the race card and all kinds of shit. Never mind that there is a waiting list for Sect. 8 housing - they shouldn't have to wait like everyone else and should be able to be placed in front of people that have been waiting for over a year.

And they have a huge sense of entitlement. "I'm owed this for what whitey did to my people so do your job and give me my stuff!"

Fat Pie
11-28-2013, 07:08 PM
Yes, but you can't compare Norway or even Germany to the US - the problem with implementing Socialism in the US is that too many people would just want other people to support them.

How do you know this?


The reason it works in Norway is because of the income from being the 8th largest oil exporter in the world and low unemployment, not from high-taxation.

So how does that apply to other countries?


Even with the money from oil exports, Norwegians have a strong work ethic and just 3.5% Unemployment.

It's quite a bold claim to say that 'work ethic' is the reason Norway has low unemployment rates. I suspect there's more to it than that.


And the wealthy in America pay far more than 40% in taxes already, not 15%

This graph from the IRS is a bit dated, but it shows who's carrying the tax load in the US:

http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess%20Who%20Really%20Pays%20the%20Taxes.jpg

You can find a more recent graph here. The number is actually closer to 25%, but it's still the highest:

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-SQ248_TAXRAT_G_20120418140102.jpg

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2012/04/18/the-real-tax-rates-of-the-rich/


As for the US, we already have Socialism as non and low-earners are voting for their own interests and not in the best interest of the US as a whole.

I doubt that the US is currently following a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole, unless I missed a breaking news story recently.

That's the definition of socialism, just so we're clear.


The result is Trillion dollar deficits and people that are not ambitious are voting for who ever will promise/give them the most freebies and goodies at the expense of others.

And yet voter turnout for the last US election was only 57% or so.

That's a pretty broad way of defining people's voting habits.


"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" has become "Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you"

The former statement was made by President John F. Kennedy, who owed his position in large part due to his family name and his father's influence.


Today I will spend Thanksgiving with my "adopted" family as I have none. My adopted "Grandfather" is 91 years old and lied about his age so he could join the Navy to fight in WW2

How many 16 year olds would do that today in a similar war?

Do teenagers from low-income backgrounds going out to Afghanistan/Iraq not count?


Having more kids so someone can get more government benefits has sadly become a "career" for many.

"Repeated studies show no correlation between benefit levels and women's choice to have children."

http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/five-media-myths-about-welfare/


Too many people have a "Why should I work when I can sleep in and not have to go to work when the Government (working taxpayers) will support me?" attitude.

I can guarantee that you won't find that attitude in Germany or in Norway. Maybe a few exceptions, but not nearly on the level of that of the US.

Oh no, I assure you that people are complaining about this to the same degree in Europe, whether it has a basis in fact or not.


Printing money and taxing one half of the population to support the other half is a fast road to national bankruptcy.

That's quite a claim. Can you cite this, or is it just rhetoric?


Capitalism isn't perfect, but Socialism has been a demonstrable failure over and over and over because eventually, they run out of other people's money and it only encourages people to "go on the dole" instead of working.

Then you end up with Greece (28% Unemployment) Spain (27% Unemployment) France (11% Unemployment and rising) Belgium (9% Unemployment and rising) Hungary (10% Unemployment and rising) and so on.

Wasn't there also a financial crisis that did something to influence that?

Maybe...?

All those countries you listed aren't really socialist. In fact, none of them are listed as actual socialist countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries

One of the main reasons that Greece collapsed, for instance, was widespread corruption and tax evasion. They even had a nickname for it, 'fakelaki', meaning 'little envelope', describing the envelopes stuffed with cash that would be used to bribe government employees for the most mundane of amenities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakelaki


Norway is an exception for the reason mentioned above.

What, work ethic?

Surely every country has that in abundance, how the hell would things still be running otherwise?


Social Security is going broke, and our annual deficit will soon exceed our annual GDP. That's when we have a situation like Greece or Spain.

I read an article and IDK if it's true, but apparently some people in Greece are purposely infecting themselves with HIV so they get extra Government benefits.

That's a false story, but it was reported as fact by the WHO, who have since retracted their claim as a 'typing error':

http://news.sky.com/story/1173624/who-sorry-over-greece-hiv-injection-claims

Never mind that it's simply insane to begin with. How the fuck does a debilitating disease make life easier? I'm sure anyone with HIV can chime in on that.

Plus there's widespread discrimination going on in Greece towards addicts, and HIV sufferers (including homosexuals) are being rounded up by the government for forced testing, no joke:

http://usilive.org/rebuilding-trust-after-trauma-greek-hiv-case-update/

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/02/greece-gay-rights-campaigners-appalled-as-health-minister-sanctions-forced-hiv-tests/


We're reaching the point where one half of the population is basically supporting the other half.

That is a bold claim, one that I hope can be supported with facts.


And Blacks are locked up more than Whites because they commit more crimes than Whites.

That's debatable. Blacks are likely being locked up more because it's easier than jailing white people, especially if they're poor and can't afford the services of a decent lawyer.

And the racial inequality of the American justice system is well documented. Surely you've heard of the Rockefeller Drug Laws?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_inequality_in_the_American_criminal_justice _system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Drug_Laws


Blaming poverty, racism, or anything other than the person that commits the crime is BS. Actions have consequences. Everyone makes their own choices.

Pretty easy to say this coming from the other side of the fence. I guess it's just a coincidence that those folks happen to be on the lower end of the income scale?

It's funny, you say that people shouldn't blame others for their misfortune, but then when it comes to America being in crisis, there are a litany of people you blame.


And there is ton of evidence to prove that blacks commit far more crimes than any other race in the US

Can we see this evidence? It's true that black people make up the largest race currently imprisoned in the US, but actually, if we look at the statistics, saying black people commit more crime than any other race in the US is demonstrably false, even at a glance:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

According to the FBI, around 6.5 million white Americans were arrested for committing crimes ranging from murder, rape and robbery to drunkenness and vagrancy, compared to around 2.5 million black people for those same said crimes.


That's not racist, that's fact.

So what's your point? Where are you going with this?

I'm not racist, but black people are the ones fucking everything up? Is that it?

No, what I just posted above is fact.


No wonder our country is printing money to avoid bankruptcy and SS is going to go broke.
Meanwhile, the cost of everything continues to rise.

Once again, wasn't there a financial crisis? How was this perpetrated by black people or welfare recipients?

In fact, everything indicates it had to do with greed and stupidity in the obscenely rich financial sector.


And for most people, welfare wasn't meant to be a "career choice" - it was meant to help people get back on their feet after being victims of circumstances beyond their control.

True, but it goes deeper than that:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-4-types-people-welfare-nobody-talks-about/


Yet we have generations of welfare families that have figured out that it's far less work to scam the system and spit out kids with absentee Father's then it is to work.

Once again:

"Repeated studies show no correlation between benefit levels and women's choice to have children."

http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/five-media-myths-about-welfare/

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there's a line between fact and exaggeration.

Guess which one sells newspapers though (and which one is clearly being repeated as though it were fact)?

Vico-Dan
11-29-2013, 03:13 AM
You're taking a lot of things too literally and taking things out of context. You also threw in a few straw men and red herrings as well.

I also stated that I don't know if it's true about people in Greece purposely getting HIV to get extra government benefits.

I never said that the financial crises was caused by blacks or welfare recipients.

I also wrote "Yet we have generations of welfare families that have figured out that it's far less work to scam the system and spit out kids with absentee Father's then it is to work." But never said that was the norm, not the exception. But it does happen and it happens a lot. Especially with an absentee father rate of 70% in the Black community.

The facts remain that many people, regardless of race/color find it easier to game the system than working and they are being enabled by a myriad of government freebies like Section 8 housing, GA, EBT, assistance with utilities, free cell/landline phone service, free health care, etc...and it has spawned generations of families that have made living off of others their "career" with an entitlement attitude to go along with it.

And 25% of wage earners are paying 85% of the taxes. Saying that the rich don't pay their fare share is demonstrably false regardless of the adjusted rate is flat out asinine.

When I broke down the numbers, I was actually keeping less than 65% of my earnings after paying State, Federal, gas, utility, local, school and other taxes. There are so many hidden taxes that most people aren't even aware of them. And I was making under 50k a year when I was paying over 35% of my earning in taxes. Not to mention, I would have to pay a modest sum of taxes instead of getting a tax return.

BTW, the FBI groups Whites and Hispanics together in their crime stats. ("White-Hispanic") Regardless, it would be more accurate to say that Blacks commit the highest percentage of crimes of any race in the US.

As far as crime, Google "The Color of Crime" - Blacks aren't filling our Prisons for minor drug offenses, but mostly for violent criminal offenses:

Blacks males comprise about 6.5% of the population, yet they are being convicted of about 50% of violent crimes.
Black on white crime is far more likely to occur than white on black crime.
An example is the "Knockout game" that is being "played" by blacks. The victims are overwhelmingly white or asian.

Crime Rates



Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.

Interracial Crime



Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.

Gangs



Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.

Incarceration



Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million.
Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely.

http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

Also, scroll down to page 14 and 15 and notice that blacks rape white women at a rate of over 100 times that of whites raping black women.

Again, most blacks aren't incarcerated for drug crimes, they are incarcerated for violent crimes. Any many of those crimes are black on white.
Those are facts. Jesse, Al and all the other race-hustlers can cry all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.

When Trayvon Martin was killed, Obama threw his .02 cents into the debate, just like he did when that cop arrested that black professor breaking into his own house.

Yet where is Obama and his leadership when we have a near-epidemic of black on white violent crime called "The Knockout Game"? Or the epidemic of black on black violence in is hometown of Chicago?
At least Al Sharpton denounced "The KO Game" and spoke out against it.
Others think banning guns is the answer. We've seen how well that has worked in Chicago and in DC

Whites are mostly locked up for drug crimes and white collar crimes. Blacks are locked up mostly for violent crimes.

As for implementing socialism in the US, we already have more and more people looking for the government, aka, taxpayers to support them.
They think we are suckers for working when they can do nothing and "get paid"
How do I know this? Because I have a friend that works at the welfare office and more and more people are looking for what they can get for free and when they are told there is a work requirement if they aren't disabled, many get upset regardless of race.
Statistics also bear this out. Why so many homeless in San Francisco? Because they have one of the most generous entitlement programs in the US. Many homeless in SF aren't from SF but came here for the benefits.

My SSDI Attorney tells me he turns down most potential clients now after 37 years of practice because a large majority of those seeking SSDI/SSI are young, healthy males with BS impairments and they don't have a chance in hell of a getting favorable judgement. Since SSDI attorneys get paid either 25% of back pay or $6,000 dollars, whichever is higher, they are only going to work with clients that have legit cases and get paid a decent amount for all the work they do to get their clients a favorable judgement.

Stats also show that the longer Unemployment benefits are extended, the less likely people will be motivated to look for work until they are running out of benefits.

The 99 weeks of benefits coined the phrase "Funemployment" - Basically a paid two year vacation. Yes, unemployment should be available, but the system is overwhelmed and people are no longer required to submit any type of proof of applying for work and there aren't enough workers to verify if they did anyways.

And a large majority of people suddenly find work shortly before their UI runs out. Funny how that works.

Bottom line is that if people are rewarded for not working, then they won't. And more and more people are doing so. And taxpayers, those that get up early and go work at a job that they fuckin' hate are paying the price.

Like Margret Thatcher said,

"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

The US is already in serious financial trouble. If the ACA ever gets implemented, it might be the straw that breaks the camels back.

In order for the ACA to work, young healthy people will have to foot the bill for others. The problem is that young healthy people rarely want or need health insurance and they can also stay on their parents insurance until age 26.

This is why most people's insurance rates are now doubling as are their deductibles.

This is also whey their is a "tax" on those that don't sign up. A tax that gets progressively higher every year.

A better plan would have been to implement a sales tax so those that buy more will pay more, not people that earn more because a lot of people save or invest money for their retirement or invest into creating business and jobs. This way, disposable income is being taxed. I would also exempt many necessities like groceries from being taxed.

I would also get rid of the IRS and implement a flat-tax based on either a percentage of earnings, or in the form of a sales tax so those that work under the table or in an underground economy also have to pay into the health care system.

Regardless, things will only get worse if we continue to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Continuously punishing people that work in order to provide more free stuff for people that don't will continue to create a dependency class that grows larger each day and discorouging those that work while encouraging people to not work.

danny
11-29-2013, 05:15 AM
come on dude, it looks like you lifted all that data uncritically from one source 'american renaissance' 'americas premiere online publication of race realist thought'
you telling me a) you didnt check your facts and b) them american renaissance' people got no dog in the fight?

theyre linked to stormfront and the klan...

Fat Pie
11-29-2013, 05:21 AM
You're taking a lot of things too literally and taking things out of context.

Nowhere do you indicate that your statements are satirical, so I don't see how I can be taking anything you said 'too literally', and if I'm taking something out of context, please cite it.


You also threw in a few straw men and red herrings as well.

Oh, for decoration?


I also stated that I don't know if it's true about people in Greece purposely getting HIV to get extra government benefits.

And I linked you a confirmation of its falsehood.


I never said that the financial crises was caused by blacks or welfare recipients.

But you totally ignored the financial sector in your criticism of America's deficit problems.


I also wrote "Yet we have generations of welfare families that have figured out that it's far less work to scam the system and spit out kids with absentee Father's then it is to work." But never said that was the norm, not the exception. But it does happen and it happens a lot. Especially with an absentee father rate of 70% in the Black community.

The facts remain that many people, regardless of race/color find it easier to game the system than working and they are being enabled by a myriad of government freebies like Section 8 housing, GA, EBT, assistance with utilities, free cell/landline phone service, free health care, etc...and it has spawned generations of families that have made living off of others their "career" with an entitlement attitude to go along with it.

So how come 91% of US benefits go to the elderly, disabled or working households?:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3677

I know you talk about people faking disabilities, but that can only work for so many people. How do you fake being elderly or employed?


And 25% of wage earners are paying 85% of the taxes.
The top 25% of wage earners, if I'm reading the figures correctly.


Saying that the rich don't pay their fare share is demonstrably false regardless of the adjusted rate is flat out asinine.

And where did I say they don't?


BTW, the FBI groups Whites and Hispanics together in their crime stats. ("White-Hispanic")

Yes, I saw that, but even if you group them, your statement that more black people are committing crime than other races is incorrect on a purely numerical basis.


As far as crime, Google "The Color of Crime"

You mean this book?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Color_of_Crime_%281998_book%29


Blacks aren't filling our Prisons for minor drug offenses, but mostly for violent criminal offenses:

That sweeping statement would appear to imply that black people aren't arrested far more than white people for drug possession. In fact they are, three times more, to be precise:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html

"African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses."

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/


Blacks males comprise about 6.5% of the population, yet they are being convicted of about 50% of violent crimes.

Yes, the key word there being 'convicted'.


Black on white crime is far more likely to occur than white on black crime.

Then why are more people being arrested for anti-black crimes than anti-white ones?:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/tables/table-5-offenses-known-offenders-race-by-bias-motivation-2010.xls


An example is the "Knockout game" that is being "played" by blacks. The victims are overwhelmingly white or asian.

And yet this 'game' can be seen being played down the ages by other races. Surely you've heard of the Zoot Suit Riots?:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/davey-d/knockout-game-media_b_4344158.html


Crime Rates




Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.


Interracial Crime




Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.


Gangs




Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.


Incarceration




Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million.
Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely.


http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

Also, scroll down to page 14 and 15 and notice that blacks rape white women at a rate of over 100 times that of whites raping black women.

Oh, you're referring to this, which appears to have a whole truckload of controversy behind it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Color_of_Crime_%28New_Century%29#The_Color_of_ Crime

In the case of rape, do the figures account for the difference in population numbers? There are obviously going to be far less black women to rape than white women.

Anyway, what's the point you're trying to make?

Are you saying that certain non-white races are predisposed to crime, particularly violent crime? Because that's what it sounds like.

And if so, what is your explanation for this?


Again, most blacks aren't incarcerated for drug crimes, they are incarcerated for violent crimes. Any many of those crimes are black on white.

And yet why is it that "two-thirds of all persons in prison for drug offenses are people of color"?

http://www.sentencingproject.org/template/page.cfm?id=122


Those are facts. Jesse, Al and all the other race-hustlers can cry all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.

Now I know where I heard that term before:

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/13/why_conservatives_obsess_over_flash_mobs_and_race_ riots/


Yet where is Obama and his leadership when we have a near-epidemic of black on white violent crime called "The Knockout Game"? Or the epidemic of black on black violence in is hometown of Chicago?

Do we have figures on this game in order to justifiably call it an 'epidemic'?


Others think banning guns is the answer. We've seen how well that has worked in Chicago and in DC.

Didn't stop a kid from chancing his arm against a dude who had a CCW though, did it?


Whites are mostly locked up for drug crimes and white collar crimes. Blacks are locked up mostly for violent crimes.

Firstly, can you cite this? I'm in a bit of a lazy mood today.

And secondly, what income bracket do the former and latter races fit?


As for implementing socialism in the US, we already have more and more people looking for the government, aka, taxpayers to support them.

That doesn't make your country socialist any more than mine.


They think we are suckers for working when they can do nothing and "get paid"
How do I know this? Because I have a friend that works at the welfare office and more and more people are looking for what they can get for free and when they are told there is a work requirement if they aren't disabled, many get upset regardless of race.

I hope you recognise the disparity between a friend at the welfare office and national trends.


Statistics also bear this out. Why so many homeless in San Francisco? Because they have one of the most generous entitlement programs in the US. Many homeless in SF aren't from SF but came here for the benefits.

So benefits are the cause of homelessness?

Are you serious? I would love to see statistics that can conclusively link homelessness with welfare.


Stats also show that the longer Unemployment benefits are extended, the less likely people will be motivated to look for work until they are running out of benefits.

If you look at my link to Cracked, that addresses being 'caught in the system'.


The 99 weeks of benefits coined the phrase "Funemployment" - Basically a paid two year vacation. Yes, unemployment should be available, but the system is overwhelmed and people are no longer required to submit any type of proof of applying for work and there aren't enough workers to verify if they did anyways.

And a large majority of people suddenly find work shortly before their UI runs out. Funny how that works.

That's shocking if true. Do you have a link handy?


Bottom line is that if people are rewarded for not working, then they won't. And more and more people are doing so.

That depends on how you define 'rewarded', and how luxurious actually being on welfare is. I think John Cheese makes a good summation:

"Getting out of poverty requires massive sacrifices. This is the part that seems to be the hardest for others to understand, because the easy answer is "Well, no shit, I sacrifice hobbies, sleep, and even time with my family for my career. If I can do it, you can do it, too, Poor Person!" But urging someone to sacrifice is making a huge, unspoken assumption: that they have something to sacrifice in the first place. If they're unemployed, they're in a Catch-22 where they need a car and a working phone to get a job, but they need a job to afford a car and a working phone (and yes, if you are lacking both of those things, your application is almost certainly going in the trash -- they won't hire somebody they can't call in for work on short notice).

And if they are employed, it's actually worse. This is why that stat about how most of the poor have jobs is so important -- it's one thing to ask somebody to sacrifice sleep and bong time in order to get a job, but it's another to ask them to sacrifice their paying job in favor of college classes or an internship that won't pay anything. At that level, the current employer doesn't give two shits what else you're trying to fit into your schedule. Throw kids into the mix, and it gets more complicated still. You can't get ahead because all of your time, money, and energy are being poured into just maintaining the life you're currently living.

That's how they get stuck in perpetual welfare. They're using 100 percent of their time, money, and efforts to maintain this level of basic life -- including the government assistance. Without some kind of outside intervention, they just never break free. This isn't theory -- I've seen it happen. I grew up with it. And it's terrifying to see that machine in action. After continually fighting it for so long, people just give up and resign themselves to that life."

Sounds horrible to me, but what do I know?

Zoops
11-29-2013, 05:32 AM
Kudos, Vico-Dan. That needed to be said. Although I don't quite agree with the racially-biased nuances in the data you presented (e.g., Black on Black crime is far more prevalent than Black on White crime, which is almost negligible in comparison).

Fact is, the people who have mastered the art of gaming the system laugh at all of us suckers who work everyday, for low wages, when they don't have to do anything to get the same thing. I work in a grocery store. WIC checks come to mind. I don't know if you have WIC in other states, but it stands for "Well Infants and Children." It's a program to assist mothers who are pregnant and/or supporting young children. What comes to mind is this: why should the government (i.e. taxpayers) be responsible for supporting children that the parents couldn't afford to support? Why? Why? Why? I know one argument is that it decreases the abortion rate, but what kind of society pays parents for not having abortions? C'mon. I almost think it would be preferable for all these unfit (they are unfit in that they don't have the resources to support their children) parents to abort their pregnancies than for the State to pay for their kids. It would be on them morally for doing that, if there is any spiritual penalty for aborting a human life (I tend to think that there is).

And what gets me the most irked is that many (if not most) of the WIC recipients are not even American citizens! A lot of West African and Hispanic folks get WIC benefits. Some don't even speak any English at all (the Hispanic ones; most Africans have a rudimentary knowledge of the English language).

Talk about not holding people accountable for their personal choices, in this case choosing to get pregnant. If you say that it's not a choice, then what are we? Animals who can't control their normal sexual desires? And what about free condoms and birth control pills available from Planned Parenthood and whatnot? I know anyone can at least walk down to social services in Alexandria, Virginia and get a bag of like 100 condoms no questions asked.

fearofnormalcy
11-29-2013, 05:37 AM
Brief (Additional) Derail: I think we should add the text "FAT PIE THIS BITCH" to the multi-quote reply button.

Zoops
11-29-2013, 05:43 AM
I knew Fat Pie would be all over this one...

What's your angle, FP? Wealth distribution? Free housing for everybody? Robin Hood type stuff?

I wish I could pin you down on your belief system, because whenever you spend so much time vehemently refuting any conservative thinking, you never actually commit to any ethos. Please explain. Do you just like poking holes in Conservative political arguments for the sake of it, or do you actually have an agenda?

What's your plan for the world?

danny
11-29-2013, 06:42 AM
^why not social housing? its got to be better than the ridiculously overinflated price of property in the uk and the endless cycle of boom and bust in the property market that affects our wider economy...i cant speak on the us, but maybe social housing (rent to a local authority, paid thru the welfare bill if youre unemployed) would have been a better option than selling huge amounts of mortgages to people that were gonna default moreless from the jump, and then selling options on them mortgages as healthy financial products...its done your economy and the world economy the power of good...anyhow, like i says, it might be different over your side, land is cheap in the states compared to over here...

another thing where the us and the uk may well differ is we DONT have full employment, and havent done since the sixties, after the first wave of commonwealth immigration...its a known fact the uk economy doesnt provide enough jobs for all the working age people, that was before maggie ran a scythe thru heavy industry in the uk, and the labour governments did fuck all to put it right...but then having said that, havent a lot of american companies 'outsourced' their labour to asia and the far east?

Delirious Nomad
11-29-2013, 09:33 AM
Have to chime in and say that Vico-Dan makes a few good points, but most of it is indeed conservative rhetoric.

As far as the Incarceration rates are concerned, isn't it true that over 50% of the U.S. prison population is in for non-violent drug crimes? And the U.S. has 5% of the worlds population , yet 25% of the prison population?
Well, why don't we then just fucking legalize drugs already?? We spend at least $70 BILLION per year on the farce that is the "War on Drugs"- and there are just as many if not MORE drugs available now than there was when the 'War' started 41 years ago.

Really though- isn't having the Government and the Police telling 'you', as an adult, tax paying citizen, what you can or cannot ingest into YOUR own body against basic conservative principles and obviously an affront to the simple tenets of "Life, LIBERTY, and the Pursuit of Happiness"????
Well then , end the 'war', and POOF, you've got an extra $70 BILLION in the federal tax coffers per year-not even counting the additional $BILLIONS of drug-sales taxes it would bring in.

Vico-Dan, it amazes me how Conservatives like to look at the poor people when complaining that the Government spends too much on 'welfare'.
It's about 8% of the Federal Budget. Eight percent. The Defense budget is about 44%.
Plus, what about all the welfare that the huge oil companies and other conglomerates get. Recall how that in 2012, GE posted a 14.2 $BILLION PROFIT- but somehow paid ZERO in taxes, and actually GOT a refund. Tell me, where you crying foul about that??

The wealthy do pay most of the taxes,it's true.
The wealthiest people pay 85% of the taxes per year. Sounds kinda unfair , huh?
Well, the wealthiest also make 95% of the money- so yeah, it's unfair alright, they should be paying 95% of the taxes!!

The answer is simple though- to generate more tax revenue, save $70 Billion per year, and at the same time return to the citizens the right to CHOOSE what is right for them to put into their bodies.
Re-Legalize Drugs, end the War on Drugs, and eliminate the alphabet companies not starting with an A, C, or F.

That's all.

hanna
11-29-2013, 09:53 AM
Yes, but you can't compare Norway or even Germany to the US - the problem with implementing Socialism in the US is that too many people would just want other people to support them. The reason it works in Norway is because of the income from being the 8th largest oil exporter in the world and low unemployment, not from high-taxation.

Even with the money from oil exports, Norwegians have a strong work ethic and just 3.5% Unemployment.

Germany was at about 12% Unemployment up to a few years ago, but their economy is in recovery and their Unemployment Rate has fallen by quite a bit over the last few years.

And the wealthy in America pay far more than 40% in taxes already, not 15%

This graph from the IRS is a bit dated, but it shows who's carrying the tax load in the US:

http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess%20Who%20Really%20Pays%20the%20Taxes.jpg

And that's just Federal taxes and doesn't include State taxes (9% in my County in Calif.), homeowner taxes, gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes, etc...

Even when I was working and making under 50k per year, I was ending up with about 60% of my income after State, Federal, local, gas and other taxes.

As for the US, we already have Socialism as non and low-earners are voting for their own interests and not in the best interest of the US as a whole.

The result is Trillion dollar deficits and people that are not ambitious are voting for who ever will promise/give them the most freebies and goodies at the expense of others.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" has become "Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you"

Today I will spend Thanksgiving with my "adopted" family as I have none. My adopted "Grandfather" is 91 years old and lied about his age so he could join the Navy to fight in WW2

How many 16 year olds would do that today in a similar war?

A girl I know from a wealthy family will be spending today feeding the poor and the needy instead of spending most of the day with her family. Or camped out for Black Friday.
That kind of thing is getting rare these days as we've become a country of takers and not givers. Look at all the idiots camped out for Black Friday sales so they can save a few bucks.

How about giving them a 50$ Gift Card for everyday they spend helping those less fortunate than camping out in front of a retail store for 3 days so they can save $100 on an LCD TV?

No one wants to sacrifice for the good of the country as a whole these days. It's all about "What's in it for me" and the entitlement mentality is poisoning our country and is also personally debilitating. Not to mention self-centered. And the people taking the most cry the loudest when asked to do something in exchange for the numerous entitlements they are receiving.

Having more kids so someone can get more government benefits has sadly become a "career" for many.
Too many people have a "Why should I work when I can sleep in and not have to go to work when the Government (working taxpayers) will support me?" attitude.

I can guarantee that you won't find that attitude in Germany or in Norway. Maybe a few exceptions, but not nearly on the level of that of the US

And with the US having the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world, raising taxes will just mean more spending by the government. The US Government will always spend more then they take in. And raising corporate taxes will merely be passed on to the consumer.

Example: The Dept. of Energy was created in 1977 to figure out ways to reduce foreign energy dependence.
As mentioned since then, our dependency on foreign oil has doubled while the Dept. of Energy has grown from 20,000 employees to about 120,000 employees today.

So not only has our dependency doubled, but the Department to reduce our dependency has grown by 6x as many employees. And what have they accomplished?
Nothing other than securing a cushy job for themselves with an early retirement age where they can collect a fat pension and great benefits.

The bottom line is, if we want a Norway-like Social Democracy, we have to become energy independent so we can fund National Health-Care, taking care of the sick, the elderly, the homeless. No-cost higher education, More paid sick days and vacation days, etc...

We also have to have low-unemployment as we can't afford to continue to have a deficit that is soon going to exceed the GDP and also reduce SS payments.

But none of that will happen as long as politicians refuse to allow us to reduce our energy dependence, refuse to let us tap into our own natural resources (which would also create jobs) continue to reward those that refuse to work with Section 8 Housing, GA cash benefits, EBT/Food Stamps, Free health care like CMSP, Assistance with Utilities, free landline/cell phones, etc...while we punish those that work with higher taxes and income redistribution schemes like the ACA that is increasing premiums and deductibles for a large majority or people so that a small minority of people can pay less.

How much longer can America survive at this rate? Not much longer. As mentioned, SS will soon go broke, the annual deficit will soon exceed annual GDP and when we become like Greece and SS goes broke and entitlements are reduced or cut, the shit is going to hit the fan.

Printing money and taxing one half of the population to support the other half is a fast road to national bankruptcy.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but Socialism has been a demonstrable failure over and over and over because eventually, they run out of other people's money and it only encourages people to "go on the dole" instead of working.

Then you end up with Greece (28% Unemployment) Spain (27% Unemployment) France (11% Unemployment and rising) Belgium (9% Unemployment and rising) Hungary (10% Unemployment and rising) and so on.

Norway is an exception for the reason mentioned above. Germany had high unemployment (12%) for years but it has been dropping recently.

I'm very compassionate towards those that have been dealt a bad hand in life, and I'm all for government (taxpayers) helping them.

But I have little to no compassion or patience for people that make a career out of being supported by others when they are just too damn lazy to work and choose not, but they get Section 8 Housing, EBT/Food Stamps, GA Cash Payments, CMSP (Free Medical/Dental program here in California) Utility Assistance, free Cell Phones/Lifelines, up to 99 Weeks of Unemployment Benefits, Scamming SSDI/SSI, etc...and people that work get to pay for those with the attitude of "Why should I get up early in the morning and work all day? That's for suckers!"

I'm 54 years old and after performing skilled physical labor for nearly 35 years, I'm left with multiple impairments and a broken down body. I have to take Methadone for CP. Yet when I went to the SS office, what do I see? A bunch of people in their 20's filing for SSDI/SSI for things like ADHD, PTSD from being in Jail/Prison and even alcoholism/drug-addiction.

I have a friend that has worked for the County in Social Services for about 30 years and will retire soon with a very nice pension and benefits package at age 55. (Another thing bankrupting our economy) He says 20 years ago, applicants for the above mentioned benifits were people that have been victims of unfortunate circumstances. These days, 80% of applicants are from South of the Border and are gaming the system - collecting benefits under one or more ID's (The fingerprint requirement was removed a few years ago) and in addition, some also work under a different set of ID's so they make money working and also gaming the system by getting benefits in multiple names. A lot of that money gets sent "back home" so it's being siphoned off here in the US and sent to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, etc...

Why is our Country broke? Because we refuse to tap our own natural resources and become energy independent, and because we have created an environment that rewards the lazy and those that choose not to work while punishing those that are ambitious and choose to work. How much longer will that last? Not much.

Social Security is going broke, and our annual deficit will soon exceed our annual GDP. That's when we have a situation like Greece or Spain.
I read an article and IDK if it's true, but apparently some people in Greece are purposely infecting themselves with HIV so they get extra Government benefits.

My old company is likely going to close up shop because they can't afford to pay 2x as much in health care premiums for their employee's, or they will have to cut them back to under 30 hours per week. Word is, the owner is tired of being over-regulated and over-taxed and will close up shop after 25 years. More lost jobs.
California is the 48th least business-friendly state in the union. No wonder companies are moving out of state.

Yes, we should model our system after Norway's, but only if we lift over-regulation and becoming energy independent and tapping our own natural resources.

Alaska residents get a nice check every year because of oil exploration and drilling. Imagine if we actually started doing what Norway has done?

And we wouldn't have to fight wars to protect our economic interests. Because if we didn't, you know damn well those fucks in the Middle East would screw us just like they did in the 70's. Remember double-digit unemployment and double-digit inflation? 21% interest rates on a car loan? Gas lines? Only being able to get gas on and "odd or even" day and having to get up at 4AM to get wait in line for 2-3 hours for your ration of 10 gallons of gas, depending on your License Plate number?

Since then, our dependency on foreign oil has gone from 35% to 70%

Everyone was crying when Exxon made a 13 Billion dollar profit one year, but what the media didn't mention is that they invested 135 Billion to make that 13 Billion, and that they paid 33 Billion in taxes on 13 Billion in profit.

Here in California and thru out the US the Government gets far more money on the purchase of a gallon of gas than the oil companies. That's why we pay nearly $4.00 a gallon in California because about .50 cents a gallon is in taxes, one of the highest on the country.

Continuing to print money, rewarding the unambitious while punishing those that work isn't the answer, and when the Government has to reduce SS payment and reduce or even cut many entitlements to those that choose not to work, that's when things are going to get really ugly.

And it's going to happen sooner than later. They can only kick the can down the road only so far.

--- auto merge ---



The only political leaders trying to divide whites and blacks are the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, all the while, they are lining their pockets with a lot of money playing the race hustler game.

And if most people had that anti-work attitude, who would pay the taxes to pay for welfare and other entitlements like Section 8 Housing, Food Stamps, Assistance to pay for Utilities, free cell phones/landline phones, CMSP ( basically free health care in California)?

Nothing is free - Someone had to work and sacrifice so others that don't can have those things.

We're reaching the point where one half of the population is basically supporting the other half.

And Blacks are locked up more than Whites because they commit more crimes than Whites.
Blaming poverty, racism, or anything other than the person that commits the crime is BS. Actions have consequences. Everyone makes their own choices.
And there is ton of evidence to prove that blacks commit far more crimes than any other race in the US
That's not racist, that's fact.

Again, the mentality of entitlement is debilitating. Having the "someone else will do it" attitude doesn't work when they're aren't enough of "someone else"
Same with the "It wasn't my fault" BS. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

No wonder our country is printing money to avoid bankruptcy and SS is going to go broke.
Meanwhile, the cost of everything continues to rise.

Hopefully, SS, which I have paid into for nearly 35 years will still be solvent when I retire and remains solvent so I can move the hell out of this country as it's circling the drain.

Yes, I'm entitled to that money because I got up early every day and busted my ass for my entire adult life, often in a lot of pain due to the nature of my work and payed into my retirement while other people slept during the day, partied at night and lived off of the labor of others.

Fuck that shit. I busted my ass for 35 years because I wanted a better life for myself than to just barely get by and depending on others to take care of me like an infant.

I'm surprised some of these people even know how to or can wipe their own asses.

Then when I go into the SS Admin. to file my SSDI claim because I have numerous impairments from 35 years of performing skilled physical labor and I see these punks in their 20's thinking they are entitled to SSDI/SSI because they have allegedly have PTSD because they did 6 Months County time for a choice that they made or some other BS "Disability

Then they laugh and brag how they are gaming the system and how people that work are suckers.

Yeah, fuck that shit too and fuck them.

Then there are the one's that get denied and claim "Racism" even though they don't have a chance in hell of being awarded SSDI

Yeah, fuck them too and they can start taking some responsibility for themselves and their situation.

And for most people, welfare wasn't meant to be a "career choice" - it was meant to help people get back on their feet after being victims of circumstances beyond their control.

Yet we have generations of welfare families that have figured out that it's far less work to scam the system and spit out kids with absentee Father's then it is to work.

Then they wonder why their kids grow up to be lazy hoodlums that end up incarcerated.

My friend that works for Social Services says that many of these people are demanding and want their check, EBT card, Sect. 8 housing and everything else right fuckin' now and if they don't get it right away, they raise a big stink, play the race card and all kinds of shit. Never mind that there is a waiting list for Sect. 8 housing - they shouldn't have to wait like everyone else and should be able to be placed in front of people that have been waiting for over a year.

And they have a huge sense of entitlement. "I'm owed this for what whitey did to my people so do your job and give me my stuff!"

Word. Word. And fucking word my man. There are a few spots a little off but by and large your post is the most accurate and thorough description of our present economy, which is a sham. Take out any number of useless things from gdp and you'll see America has been in a depression for several years now. They do a marvellous job manipulating the numbers they publish.

Restharrow
11-29-2013, 12:18 PM
What I want to know is whether I can keep my insurance?
I want everyone to have healthcare but I don't want a crappier health plan and have to pay more money per month for it on top of it.

/[/url]


IMO there are now "have nots and have lots" when it is health insurance. The "have lots" are going to become the "have less" so the "have nots" can "have some". That's the simplest explanation of a couple million word new law.


PS -- My family will benefit because I have siblings who are "have nots" so they will have health insurance now (I think). I do not believe anyone really knows what Obama care will do for us (or to us if we are among the well insured already).

Zoops
11-29-2013, 01:57 PM
One thing all, almost 100% of opiophiles, agree on is total legalization of drugs, or at least all opiates, fer cryin out loud.

Danny, as for social housing communities, I'd be all for it, because that would represent the private end recouping some losses from the leaner side of their business (low-income folks), via "bundling" loans together at the first level of commerce (where the originator bundles the loans to multiple applicants, at a reduced interest rate).

Fat Pie
11-29-2013, 03:47 PM
I knew Fat Pie would be all over this one...

Well yeah, when I hear an argument and see evidence which clearly states that black people are predisposed to being violent criminals as opposed to white people, I feel obligated to at least scrutinise that.

I went to a state school with every race and nationality imaginable, so I'm not easily predisposed to categorising folks' behaviour according to their skin colour.


What's your angle, FP? Wealth distribution? Free housing for everybody? Robin Hood type stuff?

I'm not one for fairytales. Robin Hood is quite probably a fictional character.

I'm not clever enough to know the answers, nor will I pretense at knowing them. I don't even really disagree with the core of what Vico-Dan is saying, but I like to know the facts on issues as contentious as race, crime and welfare, and if that partly or fully contradicts what someone is saying, I feel obligated to address that.

If I see someone imply or outright state a controversial point of view, I think the substance of their words should be examined for factual accuracy, and where appropriate either debunked or proved; otherwise it simply perpetuates a false image.

Like when you say "And what gets me the most irked is that many (if not most) of the WIC recipients are not even American citizens! A lot of West African and Hispanic folks get WIC benefits. Some don't even speak any English at all (the Hispanic ones; most Africans have a rudimentary knowledge of the English language)."

I like to see figures which can affirm something like this, and will fully concede the point if there are. My objective is not to prove you wrong, it's to bring a factual basis to claims like this.


I wish I could pin you down on your belief system, because whenever you spend so much time vehemently refuting any conservative thinking, you never actually commit to any ethos.

I don't think I'm refuting a way of thinking, rather I'm analysing facts to draw an argument out of someone, and then seeing how that fits with my personal beliefs and prejudices.

Just because I challenge one view doesn't mean I implicitly agree with its opposite.


Please explain. Do you just like poking holes in Conservative political arguments for the sake of it, or do you actually have an agenda?

An agenda? You mean a hidden agenda?

No, what makes you say that? There are holes in every argument, and I like to highlight them for the consideration of others.

Every point has an opposite, or an alternate way of viewing it.


What's your plan for the world?

I'm not here to suggest or dictate any plan for others. I'm doing this merely to challenge my own perspective, and maybe enlighten others who perhaps oppose Vico-Dan's POV but don't quite know how to respond to it, or what the counter-arguments consist of.

I'm not a US citizen or voter, so I have no dog in your fight. But just because I don't pontificate on the solution to world problems doesn't mean I can't address the issues that someone else proposes, and that doesn't invalidate my criticisms any more than theirs.

Count Zero
12-01-2013, 03:39 AM
Kudos, Vico-Dan. That needed to be said. Although I don't quite agree with the racially-biased nuances in the data you presented (e.g., Black on Black crime is far more prevalent than Black on White crime, which is almost negligible in comparison).

Fact is, the people who have mastered the art of gaming the system laugh at all of us suckers who work everyday, for low wages, when they don't have to do anything to get the same thing. I work in a grocery store. WIC checks come to mind. I don't know if you have WIC in other states, but it stands for "Well Infants and Children." It's a program to assist mothers who are pregnant and/or supporting young children. What comes to mind is this: why should the government (i.e. taxpayers) be responsible for supporting children that the parents couldn't afford to support? Why? Why? Why? I know one argument is that it decreases the abortion rate, but what kind of society pays parents for not having abortions? C'mon. I almost think it would be preferable for all these unfit (they are unfit in that they don't have the resources to support their children) parents to abort their pregnancies than for the State to pay for their kids. It would be on them morally for doing that, if there is any spiritual penalty for aborting a human life (I tend to think that there is).

And what gets me the most irked is that many (if not most) of the WIC recipients are not even American citizens! A lot of West African and Hispanic folks get WIC benefits. Some don't even speak any English at all (the Hispanic ones; most Africans have a rudimentary knowledge of the English language).

Talk about not holding people accountable for their personal choices, in this case choosing to get pregnant. If you say that it's not a choice, then what are we? Animals who can't control their normal sexual desires? And what about free condoms and birth control pills available from Planned Parenthood and whatnot? I know anyone can at least walk down to social services in Alexandria, Virginia and get a bag of like 100 condoms no questions asked.

This is why the baggers must be defeated. Looked at it objectively, making abortion illegal would put another 900k-1M impoverished, unwanted babies into the system every year. 80% (at least) will end up on food stamps, welfare, courts, jail. That is a fact. So why would anyone with a brain want that result, it makes no sense.

Zoops
12-01-2013, 08:23 AM
So you think abortion is a legitimate means of population control? How about changing people's attitudes towards having children in the first place. Social education efforts often provide very good results. Not perfect, but good results. Look at how the spread of HIV has been curtailed through education about safe sex (Fat Pie?). The same type of effort might be good for certain segments of the American population. Where have you ever seen (in the U.S.) any PSA directed at young Black and or Hispanic women saying something like "Don't have a child if you're not ready, don't let some dude convince you to sleep with him unprotected."

--- auto merge ---


Well yeah, when I hear an argument and see evidence which clearly states that black people are predisposed to being violent criminals as opposed to white people, I feel obligated to at least scrutinise that.

I went to a state school with every race and nationality imaginable, so I'm not easily predisposed to categorising folks' behaviour according to their skin colour.



I'm not one for fairytales. Robin Hood is quite probably a fictional character.

I'm not clever enough to know the answers, nor will I pretense at knowing them. I don't even really disagree with the core of what Vico-Dan is saying, but I like to know the facts on issues as contentious as race, crime and welfare, and if that partly or fully contradicts what someone is saying, I feel obligated to address that.

If I see someone imply or outright state a controversial point of view, I think the substance of their words should be examined for factual accuracy, and where appropriate either debunked or proved; otherwise it simply perpetuates a false image.

Like when you say "And what gets me the most irked is that many (if not most) of the WIC recipients are not even American citizens! A lot of West African and Hispanic folks get WIC benefits. Some don't even speak any English at all (the Hispanic ones; most Africans have a rudimentary knowledge of the English language)."

I like to see figures which can affirm something like this, and will fully concede the point if there are. My objective is not to prove you wrong, it's to bring a factual basis to claims like this.




I don't think I'm refuting a way of thinking, rather I'm analysing facts to draw an argument out of someone, and then seeing how that fits with my personal beliefs and prejudices.

Just because I challenge one view doesn't mean I implicitly agree with its opposite.



An agenda? You mean a hidden agenda?

No, what makes you say that? There are holes in every argument, and I like to highlight them for the consideration of others.

Every point has an opposite, or an alternate way of viewing it.




I'm not here to suggest or dictate any plan for others. I'm doing this merely to challenge my own perspective, and maybe enlighten others who perhaps oppose Vico-Dan's POV but don't quite know how to respond to it, or what the counter-arguments consist of.

I'm not a US citizen or voter, so I have no dog in your fight. But just because I don't pontificate on the solution to world problems doesn't mean I can't address the issues that someone else proposes, and that doesn't invalidate my criticisms any more than theirs.

I like that.

Respect, ma bruva.

As for the number of WIC recipients that are not U.S. citizens, it IS a sizeable minority, as non-citizens ARE eligible to receive the benefits. Personally, I think that's wrong, but if you just went ahead and stopped it now, people would be screaming bloody murder. We can't afford to feed all the needy U.S. citizens and non-U.S. citizens in this country (and their babies too? c'mon.).

Fat Pie
12-01-2013, 09:49 AM
So you think abortion is a legitimate means of population control? How about changing people's attitudes towards having children in the first place. Social education efforts often provide very good results. Not perfect, but good results. Look at how the spread of HIV has been curtailed through education about safe sex (Fat Pie?). The same type of effort might be good for certain segments of the American population. Where have you ever seen (in the U.S.) any PSA directed at young Black and or Hispanic women saying something like "Don't have a child if you're not ready, don't let some dude convince you to sleep with him unprotected."

Usually the younger the education takes place the better (within reason). This 'sexualising kids in the classrom' stuff is bullshit, by the time sex ed and responsibility is actually taught (if it's even taught at all), it's far too damn late.


As for the number of WIC recipients that are not U.S. citizens, it IS a sizeable minority, as non-citizens ARE eligible to receive the benefits.

I thought lack of citizenship in itself would have been a barrier, but you are indeed correct:

http://www.infoline.org/InformationLibrary/Documents/WIC%20cw.asp


Personally, I think that's wrong, but if you just went ahead and stopped it now, people would be screaming bloody murder. We can't afford to feed all the needy U.S. citizens and non-U.S. citizens in this country (and their babies too? c'mon.).

Then again, when it comes to babies the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the West:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-has-highest-first-day-infant-mortality-out-of-industrialized-world-group-reports/

chopstix
12-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Yes, but you can't compare Norway or even Germany to the US - the problem with implementing Socialism in the US is that too many people would just want other people to support them. The reason it works in Norway is because of the income from being the 8th largest oil exporter in the world and low unemployment, not from high-taxation.

Even with the money from oil exports, Norwegians have a strong work ethic and just 3.5% Unemployment.

Germany was at about 12% Unemployment up to a few years ago, but their economy is in recovery and their Unemployment Rate has fallen by quite a bit over the last few years.

And the wealthy in America pay far more than 40% in taxes already, not 15%

This graph from the IRS is a bit dated, but it shows who's carrying the tax load in the US:

http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess%20Who%20Really%20Pays%20the%20Taxes.jpg

And that's just Federal taxes and doesn't include State taxes (9% in my County in Calif.), homeowner taxes, gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes, etc...

Even when I was working and making under 50k per year, I was ending up with about 60% of my income after State, Federal, local, gas and other taxes.

As for the US, we already have Socialism as non and low-earners are voting for their own interests and not in the best interest of the US as a whole.

The result is Trillion dollar deficits and people that are not ambitious are voting for who ever will promise/give them the most freebies and goodies at the expense of others.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" has become "Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you"

Today I will spend Thanksgiving with my "adopted" family as I have none. My adopted "Grandfather" is 91 years old and lied about his age so he could join the Navy to fight in WW2

How many 16 year olds would do that today in a similar war?

A girl I know from a wealthy family will be spending today feeding the poor and the needy instead of spending most of the day with her family. Or camped out for Black Friday.
That kind of thing is getting rare these days as we've become a country of takers and not givers. Look at all the idiots camped out for Black Friday sales so they can save a few bucks.

How about giving them a 50$ Gift Card for everyday they spend helping those less fortunate than camping out in front of a retail store for 3 days so they can save $100 on an LCD TV?

No one wants to sacrifice for the good of the country as a whole these days. It's all about "What's in it for me" and the entitlement mentality is poisoning our country and is also personally debilitating. Not to mention self-centered. And the people taking the most cry the loudest when asked to do something in exchange for the numerous entitlements they are receiving.

Having more kids so someone can get more government benefits has sadly become a "career" for many.
Too many people have a "Why should I work when I can sleep in and not have to go to work when the Government (working taxpayers) will support me?" attitude.

I can guarantee that you won't find that attitude in Germany or in Norway. Maybe a few exceptions, but not nearly on the level of that of the US

And with the US having the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world, raising taxes will just mean more spending by the government. The US Government will always spend more then they take in. And raising corporate taxes will merely be passed on to the consumer.

Example: The Dept. of Energy was created in 1977 to figure out ways to reduce foreign energy dependence.
As mentioned since then, our dependency on foreign oil has doubled while the Dept. of Energy has grown from 20,000 employees to about 120,000 employees today.

So not only has our dependency doubled, but the Department to reduce our dependency has grown by 6x as many employees. And what have they accomplished?
Nothing other than securing a cushy job for themselves with an early retirement age where they can collect a fat pension and great benefits.

The bottom line is, if we want a Norway-like Social Democracy, we have to become energy independent so we can fund National Health-Care, taking care of the sick, the elderly, the homeless. No-cost higher education, More paid sick days and vacation days, etc...

We also have to have low-unemployment as we can't afford to continue to have a deficit that is soon going to exceed the GDP and also reduce SS payments.

But none of that will happen as long as politicians refuse to allow us to reduce our energy dependence, refuse to let us tap into our own natural resources (which would also create jobs) continue to reward those that refuse to work with Section 8 Housing, GA cash benefits, EBT/Food Stamps, Free health care like CMSP, Assistance with Utilities, free landline/cell phones, etc...while we punish those that work with higher taxes and income redistribution schemes like the ACA that is increasing premiums and deductibles for a large majority or people so that a small minority of people can pay less.

How much longer can America survive at this rate? Not much longer. As mentioned, SS will soon go broke, the annual deficit will soon exceed annual GDP and when we become like Greece and SS goes broke and entitlements are reduced or cut, the shit is going to hit the fan.

Printing money and taxing one half of the population to support the other half is a fast road to national bankruptcy.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but Socialism has been a demonstrable failure over and over and over because eventually, they run out of other people's money and it only encourages people to "go on the dole" instead of working.

Then you end up with Greece (28% Unemployment) Spain (27% Unemployment) France (11% Unemployment and rising) Belgium (9% Unemployment and rising) Hungary (10% Unemployment and rising) and so on.

Norway is an exception for the reason mentioned above. Germany had high unemployment (12%) for years but it has been dropping recently.

I'm very compassionate towards those that have been dealt a bad hand in life, and I'm all for government (taxpayers) helping them.

But I have little to no compassion or patience for people that make a career out of being supported by others when they are just too damn lazy to work and choose not, but they get Section 8 Housing, EBT/Food Stamps, GA Cash Payments, CMSP (Free Medical/Dental program here in California) Utility Assistance, free Cell Phones/Lifelines, up to 99 Weeks of Unemployment Benefits, Scamming SSDI/SSI, etc...and people that work get to pay for those with the attitude of "Why should I get up early in the morning and work all day? That's for suckers!"

I'm 54 years old and after performing skilled physical labor for nearly 35 years, I'm left with multiple impairments and a broken down body. I have to take Methadone for CP. Yet when I went to the SS office, what do I see? A bunch of people in their 20's filing for SSDI/SSI for things like ADHD, PTSD from being in Jail/Prison and even alcoholism/drug-addiction.

I have a friend that has worked for the County in Social Services for about 30 years and will retire soon with a very nice pension and benefits package at age 55. (Another thing bankrupting our economy) He says 20 years ago, applicants for the above mentioned benifits were people that have been victims of unfortunate circumstances. These days, 80% of applicants are from South of the Border and are gaming the system - collecting benefits under one or more ID's (The fingerprint requirement was removed a few years ago) and in addition, some also work under a different set of ID's so they make money working and also gaming the system by getting benefits in multiple names. A lot of that money gets sent "back home" so it's being siphoned off here in the US and sent to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, etc...

Why is our Country broke? Because we refuse to tap our own natural resources and become energy independent, and because we have created an environment that rewards the lazy and those that choose not to work while punishing those that are ambitious and choose to work. How much longer will that last? Not much.

Social Security is going broke, and our annual deficit will soon exceed our annual GDP. That's when we have a situation like Greece or Spain.
I read an article and IDK if it's true, but apparently some people in Greece are purposely infecting themselves with HIV so they get extra Government benefits.

My old company is likely going to close up shop because they can't afford to pay 2x as much in health care premiums for their employee's, or they will have to cut them back to under 30 hours per week. Word is, the owner is tired of being over-regulated and over-taxed and will close up shop after 25 years. More lost jobs.
California is the 48th least business-friendly state in the union. No wonder companies are moving out of state.

Yes, we should model our system after Norway's, but only if we lift over-regulation and becoming energy independent and tapping our own natural resources.

Alaska residents get a nice check every year because of oil exploration and drilling. Imagine if we actually started doing what Norway has done?

And we wouldn't have to fight wars to protect our economic interests. Because if we didn't, you know damn well those fucks in the Middle East would screw us just like they did in the 70's. Remember double-digit unemployment and double-digit inflation? 21% interest rates on a car loan? Gas lines? Only being able to get gas on and "odd or even" day and having to get up at 4AM to get wait in line for 2-3 hours for your ration of 10 gallons of gas, depending on your License Plate number?

Since then, our dependency on foreign oil has gone from 35% to 70%

Everyone was crying when Exxon made a 13 Billion dollar profit one year, but what the media didn't mention is that they invested 135 Billion to make that 13 Billion, and that they paid 33 Billion in taxes on 13 Billion in profit.

Here in California and thru out the US the Government gets far more money on the purchase of a gallon of gas than the oil companies. That's why we pay nearly $4.00 a gallon in California because about .50 cents a gallon is in taxes, one of the highest on the country.

Continuing to print money, rewarding the unambitious while punishing those that work isn't the answer, and when the Government has to reduce SS payment and reduce or even cut many entitlements to those that choose not to work, that's when things are going to get really ugly.

And it's going to happen sooner than later. They can only kick the can down the road only so far.

--- auto merge ---



The only political leaders trying to divide whites and blacks are the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, all the while, they are lining their pockets with a lot of money playing the race hustler game.

And if most people had that anti-work attitude, who would pay the taxes to pay for welfare and other entitlements like Section 8 Housing, Food Stamps, Assistance to pay for Utilities, free cell phones/landline phones, CMSP ( basically free health care in California)?

Nothing is free - Someone had to work and sacrifice so others that don't can have those things.

We're reaching the point where one half of the population is basically supporting the other half.

And Blacks are locked up more than Whites because they commit more crimes than Whites.
Blaming poverty, racism, or anything other than the person that commits the crime is BS. Actions have consequences. Everyone makes their own choices.
And there is ton of evidence to prove that blacks commit far more crimes than any other race in the US
That's not racist, that's fact.

Again, the mentality of entitlement is debilitating. Having the "someone else will do it" attitude doesn't work when they're aren't enough of "someone else"
Same with the "It wasn't my fault" BS. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

No wonder our country is printing money to avoid bankruptcy and SS is going to go broke.
Meanwhile, the cost of everything continues to rise.

Hopefully, SS, which I have paid into for nearly 35 years will still be solvent when I retire and remains solvent so I can move the hell out of this country as it's circling the drain.

Yes, I'm entitled to that money because I got up early every day and busted my ass for my entire adult life, often in a lot of pain due to the nature of my work and payed into my retirement while other people slept during the day, partied at night and lived off of the labor of others.

Fuck that shit. I busted my ass for 35 years because I wanted a better life for myself than to just barely get by and depending on others to take care of me like an infant.

I'm surprised some of these people even know how to or can wipe their own asses.

Then when I go into the SS Admin. to file my SSDI claim because I have numerous impairments from 35 years of performing skilled physical labor and I see these punks in their 20's thinking they are entitled to SSDI/SSI because they have allegedly have PTSD because they did 6 Months County time for a choice that they made or some other BS "Disability

Then they laugh and brag how they are gaming the system and how people that work are suckers.

Yeah, fuck that shit too and fuck them.

Then there are the one's that get denied and claim "Racism" even though they don't have a chance in hell of being awarded SSDI

Yeah, fuck them too and they can start taking some responsibility for themselves and their situation.

And for most people, welfare wasn't meant to be a "career choice" - it was meant to help people get back on their feet after being victims of circumstances beyond their control.

Yet we have generations of welfare families that have figured out that it's far less work to scam the system and spit out kids with absentee Father's then it is to work.

Then they wonder why their kids grow up to be lazy hoodlums that end up incarcerated.

My friend that works for Social Services says that many of these people are demanding and want their check, EBT card, Sect. 8 housing and everything else right fuckin' now and if they don't get it right away, they raise a big stink, play the race card and all kinds of shit. Never mind that there is a waiting list for Sect. 8 housing - they shouldn't have to wait like everyone else and should be able to be placed in front of people that have been waiting for over a year.

And they have a huge sense of entitlement. "I'm owed this for what whitey did to my people so do your job and give me my stuff!"

Umm, wow. That's about a bunch of hateful bullshit. You should start sourcing that crap instead of just spewing out this pessimist rhetorical hateful non-sense, someone might actually buy that crap... Quite sad, really. I bet it really sucks to live with such a narrow, hateful perspective.

I'm genuinely curious, does it hurt to hate so much??

Snoops
12-01-2013, 11:33 AM
Umm, wow. That's about a bunch of hateful bullshit. You should start sourcing that crap instead of just spewing out this pessimist rhetorical hateful non-sense, someone might actually buy that crap... Quite sad, really. I bet it really sucks to live with such a narrow, hateful perspective.

I'm genuinely curious, does it hurt to hate so much??

I really wonder about these types.... That particular poster and "Sub-Human" should hook up. Have a good ol' fashioned hate festivus... We as a Country look out for our infirmed, elderly and disabled.

Deal with it.... Where do you think taxes go?

And yes, SOME people "Work the System"..... Deal With It!!! Fuck....

I gotta deal with you.

It's just hate speech, and it's no more or less insulting as 'racist remarks' IMO, if you want to take jabs at the disabled.

I in particular, happen to collect SSD/SSI, and was approved at my first "sit down"... I'm sure that the files, Xrays, CATS and Labs that were enough to have the Judge approve me for a favorable decision.

It's not easy by ANY stretch of the imagination to get Social Security Benefits... Ya gotta have some fucked up shit condition that is degenerative (that means gets worse over time, not EVER better) that will prevent you from working (especially since nearly ALL of my former employment was LABOR)

There's a few haters here on this issue.... Get to applying, keep your head down and work, or just STFU and quit whining.

Few of us on Disability "Enjoy" it.... It usually is accompanied by some fucked up other type shit ur gonna be stuck with for the rest of your days.

Apply, Don't .... Or STFU.

Those are your options.

Count Zero
12-01-2013, 01:09 PM
So you think abortion is a legitimate means of population control? How about changing people's attitudes towards having children in the first place. Social education efforts often provide very good results. Not perfect, but good results. Look at how the spread of HIV has been curtailed through education about safe sex (Fat Pie?). The same type of effort might be good for certain segments of the American population. Where have you ever seen (in the U.S.) any PSA directed at young Black and or Hispanic women saying something like "Don't have a child if you're not ready, don't let some dude convince you to sleep with him unprotected."

Yep, I sure as fuck do. Education is nice and all but welcome to the real world.

Ravenous
12-01-2013, 03:38 PM
Then again, when it comes to babies the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the West:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-has-highest-first-day-infant-mortality-out-of-industrialized-world-group-reports/

Fat Pie, I could be wrong but I've read that the infant mortality thing is a myth because of the way the US counts infant deaths compared to other countries. The U.S. is one of only eight countries that count extremely premature infants as live births despite very low chances of survival. If you categorize births by length of gestations the U.S. ranks up in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place (depending on type of rank).

danny
12-01-2013, 05:01 PM
Umm, wow. That's about a bunch of hateful bullshit. You should start sourcing that crap instead of just spewing out this pessimist rhetorical hateful non-sense, someone might actually buy that crap... Quite sad, really. I bet it really sucks to live with such a narrow, hateful perspective.

I'm genuinely curious, does it hurt to hate so much??

i always think that addiction gives people a chance to empathise with other people in fucked up situations, obviously my man missed out on that...

Ravenous
12-01-2013, 06:25 PM
i always think that addiction gives people a chance to empathise with other people in fucked up situations, obviously my man missed out on that...

You know, for addiction to change your politics or make you a more sympathetic person in general, I kind of think that you have to experience jail or some bad run ins with LE. The reason why is because I have seen so many middle class or upper class holier than thou addicts who became addicted after getting scripted pills from their doctor. BTW, I'm not talking about anyone here. I'm actually thinking about someone I know in real life. Anyway, These people still think most of us here are pieces of shit. Think of a Rush Limbuagh or Bill Buckingham from the Dover trial (It was trial about putting Intelligent Design in a public school; Buckingham was addicted to OxyContin and was very conservative socially so much so that he wanted prayer and creationism in schools). My own father was never for legalization of drugs until he saw his daughter have to go to jail and suffer disgusting abuse from a cop. Also, The ridiculous mandatory minimum sentence that would have given me more time than the average murderer, rapist or child molester and of course, forced me to plead to a lesser offense, shocked my father even though he was a light user at the time but had been a lifelong Republican. I just think these are the things that tend to radicalize people. Not always of course. This isn't true for everyone. Its just something I've noticed.

Narkotikon
12-02-2013, 02:31 AM
You know, for addiction to change your politics or make you a more sympathetic person in general, I kind of think that you have to experience jail or some bad run ins with LE. The reason why is because I have seen so many middle class or upper class holier than thou addicts who became addicted after getting scripted pills from their doctor. BTW, I'm not talking about anyone here. I'm actually thinking about someone I know in real life. Anyway, These people still think most of us here are pieces of shit. Think of a Rush Limbuagh or Bill Buckingham from the Dover trial (It was trial about putting Intelligent Design in a public school; Buckingham was addicted to OxyContin and was very conservative socially so much so that he wanted prayer and creationism in schools). My own father was never for legalization of drugs until he saw his daughter have to go to jail and suffer disgusting abuse from a cop. Also, The ridiculous mandatory minimum sentence that would have given me more time than the average murderer, rapist or child molester and of course, forced me to plead to a lesser offense, shocked my father even though he was a light user at the time but had been a lifelong Republican. I just think these are the things that tend to radicalize people. Not always of course. This isn't true for everyone. Its just something I've noticed.

I sometimes think the reverse is equally true. I think people can sometimes be jealous or expect people who are perceived to be better off to just shut up and quit whining. People have problems, from whatever walk of life. And just because someone lives a certain lifestyle doesn't necessarily mean they could live that lifestyle without support (financial support) from others. It's all perception.

I generally dislike the people you describe: the kind who doesn't like taxes, or public education, or help for the needy. I'd like them to have to live a certain way for a few years and see if they like it. Plus, not everyone shares their Protestant work ethic of be born, go to school, work, die. That's NOT the point of living IMO. Living and life is about experiences.

But I also equally dislike people who think that just because you drive a decent car, or have decent clothes, or live in a decent house (even though it's not yours) that you should just magically be happy with no cares. Life aint that grand for most people. I do think people who hate on those more well-off (or at least perceived to be more well off) automatically peg them as snobs, or stuck up, or weird, or whatever just to invalidate and hate on them because of jealousy or some other form of hatred.

Live your life, and let others live theirs. Try to be kind, helpful, not an asshole, etc. Don't judge. I actually find it quite interesting, because for the amount of people espousing equality and no curtailing of freedoms, and blah blah blah, I think there are a lot of people like this here. Not a majority perhaps, but it definitely exists. I've always found that interesting about this board--they hypocrisy of perception.

Snoops
12-02-2013, 11:38 AM
@Zoops- All due respect, but your views on WIC come off as 'hate speech' to me... I like you. You're good people, I can tell... But WIC merely supplies Milk, Eggs, Cheese, Peanut Butter, Bread, Grain/Lentil/Pinto/Legumes

These items aren't exactly breaking the bank man... It's for Women and Children nonetheless. It's Aide. It's bullshit that people may abuse the system, and take from another who truly NEEDS sustenance/food (very basic foods at that). But you can't please ALL of the people, ALL of the time... Is what it is.

I understand the 'Unnaturalized Immigrants' (ie Illegals, Foreigners overstaying visas, etc) getting under your skin. Afterall, they really don't contribute 'taxes', to take benefit from their appropriation. I get that.

But, I believe it's a worse social tragedy to let children go hungry when there is plenty of food for all... Ya know?

quzyke
12-02-2013, 11:55 AM
Coming from a country where everyone gets health insurance, and people living in below a certain standard of poverty (like me and my mum) basically get it for free. I have to pay 3 for 3 weeks of 120mg methadone/day, and a TON of medications are included. Every doctor visit is free of charge, all I have to do is give him a sticker and he gets paid. It also ensures you get the cheapest form of your prescribed med (generics or whatever) among other benefits. It really is a great thing, and even though this change might cause some discomfort to people as the change gets implemented, I feel it is a big step forward for the US. Healthcare should be available to everyone, not based on how much money people make, we're all humans after all...

Snoops
12-02-2013, 12:03 PM
Coming from a country where everyone gets health insurance, and people living in below a certain standard of poverty (like me and my mum) basically get it for free. I have to pay 3€ for 3 weeks of 120mg methadone/day, and a TON of medications are included. Every doctor visit is free of charge, all I have to do is give him a sticker and he gets paid. It also ensures you get the cheapest form of your prescribed med (generics or whatever) among other benefits. It really is a great thing, and even though this change might cause some discomfort to people as the change gets implemented, I feel it is a big step forward for the US. Healthcare should be available to everyone, not based on how much money people make, we're all humans after all...

+1

Humans are complex creatures, with complex anatomy and our immune system is a 'work in progress'

Lots take their health for granted. So they soapbox about the 'handouts' people are receiving.

Why a junky can't conjoin empathy with the subject is beyond me... More widely available MMT means less human suffering... And at the end of the day, you'll never be PLEASED/HAPPY with taxes. And they'll always be slanted away from your favor. But just remember.... Not everyone has the means, and ways to stay above boards.

Have a heart.

Ravenous
12-02-2013, 12:44 PM
I sometimes think the reverse is equally true. I think people can sometimes be jealous or expect people who are perceived to be better off to just shut up and quit whining. People have problems, from whatever walk of life. And just because someone lives a certain lifestyle doesn't necessarily mean they could live that lifestyle without support (financial support) from others. It's all perception.

I generally dislike the people you describe: the kind who doesn't like taxes, or public education, or help for the needy. I'd like them to have to live a certain way for a few years and see if they like it. Plus, not everyone shares their Protestant work ethic of be born, go to school, work, die. That's NOT the point of living IMO. Living and life is about experiences.

But I also equally dislike people who think that just because you drive a decent car, or have decent clothes, or live in a decent house (even though it's not yours) that you should just magically be happy with no cares. Life aint that grand for most people. I do think people who hate on those more well-off (or at least perceived to be more well off) automatically peg them as snobs, or stuck up, or weird, or whatever just to invalidate and hate on them because of jealousy or some other form of hatred.

Live your life, and let others live theirs. Try to be kind, helpful, not an asshole, etc. Don't judge. I actually find it quite interesting, because for the amount of people espousing equality and no curtailing of freedoms, and blah blah blah, I think there are a lot of people like this here. Not a majority perhaps, but it definitely exists. I've always found that interesting about this board--they hypocrisy of perception.

I understand your point and I agree but in my post I was just talking about what could make an addict radically change their politics due to their addiction. I still think usually addiction alone won't change someone's politics. You need something more like I mentioned. Oh, BTW, I meant to type in my post that "my father was never for legalization of drugs until I got arrested". I totally typed it the opposite way and now I can't fix it. Damn, that's annoying!

Fat Pie
12-02-2013, 02:03 PM
Fat Pie, I could be wrong but I've read that the infant mortality thing is a myth because of the way the US counts infant deaths compared to other countries. The U.S. is one of only eight countries that count extremely premature infants as live births despite very low chances of survival. If you categorize births by length of gestations the U.S. ranks up in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place (depending on type of rank).

I'm going off the UN figures, which count the US as 34th in the world. This concurs with the WHO, which has the US at 38th for healthcare overall, based on expenditure per capita.

Either way, US preterm birth rates are at a record low. Incidentally, this may also be affecting the figures:

"Although we have made great progress in reducing our nation's preterm birth rate from historic highs, the US still has the highest rate of preterm birth of any industrialized country."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131101091908.htm

Ravenous
12-02-2013, 02:08 PM
I'm going off the UN figures, which count the US as 34th in the world. This concurs with the WHO, which has the US at 38th for healthcare overall, based on expenditure per capita.

Either way, US preterm birth rates are at a record low. Incidentally, this may also be affecting the figures:

"Although we have made great progress in reducing our nation's preterm birth rate from historic highs, the US still has the highest rate of preterm birth of any industrialized country."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131101091908.htm

This is from Us news :
First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

This is the link:
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060924/2healy.htm


Edit: I can grab some more for you. There were a bunch.

jdub
12-02-2013, 02:26 PM
@Zoops- All due respect, but your views on WIC come off as 'hate speech' to me... I like you. You're good people, I can tell... But WIC merely supplies Milk, Eggs, Cheese, Peanut Butter, Bread, Grain/Lentil/Pinto/Legumes

These items aren't exactly breaking the bank man... It's for Women and Children nonetheless. It's Aide. It's bullshit that people may abuse the system, and take from another who truly NEEDS sustenance/food (very basic foods at that). But you can't please ALL of the people, ALL of the time... Is what it is.

I understand the 'Unnaturalized Immigrants' (ie Illegals, Foreigners overstaying visas, etc) getting under your skin. Afterall, they really don't contribute 'taxes', to take benefit from their appropriation. I get that.

But, I believe it's a worse social tragedy to let children go hungry when there is plenty of food for all... Ya know?


Couldn't agree more. And just because a person can't speak English doesn't mean they're not a citizen. Just ask my mail-order bride!
But seriously, criticizing people for receiving benefits without "knowing how to speak the language" just
kinda screams "bigot". And those people do contribute to the tax base via sales taxes etc.

I'm definitely a small-government kinda guy, but I can't hate on a program that provides food to women, infants and children. Government cheese, son!

Snoops
12-02-2013, 02:33 PM
Couldn't agree more. And just because a person can't speak English doesn't mean they're not a citizen. Just ask my mail-order bride!
But seriously, criticizing people for receiving benefits without "knowing how to speak the language" just
kinda screams "bigot". And those people do contribute to the tax base via sales taxes etc.

I'm definitely a small-government kinda guy, but I can't hate on a program that provides food to women, infants and children. Government cheese, son!

A government cheese Sammich is the very least we can give to our 'huddled masses'

Ya dig?

Narkotikon
12-02-2013, 04:48 PM
I understand your point and I agree but in my post I was just talking about what could make an addict radically change their politics due to their addiction. I still think usually addiction alone won't change someone's politics. You need something more like I mentioned. Oh, BTW, I meant to type in my post that "my father was never for legalization of drugs until I got arrested". I totally typed it the opposite way and now I can't fix it. Damn, that's annoying!

Oh, I know sweetie. I know what you were saying. Just trying to say I agree, but I can also see it from the other perspective too. I do think overall we all could stand to be a little more tolerant of all issues and peoples and situations around here. I just find some things hypocritcal. Especially the "hard" part. It's like if you're not an avid, rabid IV'er your a second-class Opiophile, or not even an Opiophile to some. Fuck that shit.

I appreciate the clarification though.

duck
12-02-2013, 09:29 PM
A government cheese Sammich is the very least we can give to our 'huddled masses'

Ya dig?

What did I tell you about giving cookies to mice?! ;)

Fat Pie
12-02-2013, 10:03 PM
First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries.

I wonder why the UN count it that way. Should be an addendum to the figures as to what exactly constitutes a live birth in what country.


Oh, BTW, I meant to type in my post that "my father was never for legalization of drugs until I got arrested". I totally typed it the opposite way and now I can't fix it. Damn, that's annoying!

I've fixed that for you.

Ravenous
12-02-2013, 11:34 PM
I wonder why the UN count it that way. Should be an addendum to the figures as to what exactly constitutes a live birth in what country.



I've fixed that for you.

Thanks for fixing my quote hon!
Eh, I think it's just that the US has to do everything differently.
The interesting thing to me though, is that I was always under the impression that the US had such poor healthcare outcomes. This actually isn't totally true. For instance, we are better on treating hypertension; we do better than Canada, Germany, Spain, Sweden, Italy and England (meaning more of our citizens who have high blood pressure actually end up treated for it as opposed to being left untreated):
http://m.hyper.ahajournals.org/content/43/1/10.full

We also have better rates of survival for breast cancer, colon cancer and prostate cancer:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-125860/Britain-trails-cancer-survival-rates.html

If you have surgery then you may face a four times greater chance of dying in a NHS hospital than a United States hospital (seven times greater chance if you're seriously ill). However, this study says that the patients in the US may have been wealthier and healthier than the NHS counterparts, though the researchers tried to take that into account. They say the greater risk of death is due to shortage of specialists and lack of intensive care beds for post ops. I'm a little skeptical that they were able to take into account the socioeconomic differences between the two groups so I'm not sure the risk is that high but I'm no researcher:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-195277/NHS-death-rates-times-higher-US.html

We have a high rate of MRI machines and CAT scans per capita so there are no huge waiting lists to use one. The last time I needed an MRI I was able to get one after approximately two weeks of it being ordered (Of course, a lot of times doctors here tend to over use tech IMO which can drive up costs. Maybe because they are scared of getting sued and are practicing defensive medicine):
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/04/02/index.html;jsessionid=2ps3osemtuc2.delta?contentTy pe=&itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-30-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/19991312&accessItemIds=/content/book/health_glance-2011-en&mimeType=text/html


Finally, we have all heard that the US has poor life expectancy. Well, if you remove fatal accidents and violent deaths then the United States moves into first place:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/

HOWEVER, if you look closely at that bottom chart you will see something interesting. Yes, the US moves into first place but the life expectancy is within one year of the next several countries below it. Yet, we spend WAY more than they do on healthcare per capita. For example, we spend 84% more than Germany. This makes us totally inefficient. Especially when you consider how many of our citizens are uninsured.

There are ways to get treatment if you're uninsured. For instance, when I was on MMT I received free psychiatric treatment and was able to see one of the best psychiatrists in the state. The thing is, how many people know about these programs? I've heard of people putting off seeing a doctor when they had a lump in their breast (which turned out to be cancer) because they couldn't pay and didn't think they could get treatment. It's heartbreaking.

What about an issue I was discussing on here the other day, dental care? It isn't included in Obamacare for adults. There is minimal dental care under Medicaid but that's it. Otherwise, you have to go through the other channels I mentioned to try to get help. I know a lot of Brits complain about NHS dental care but at least it's something.
Anyway, the US healthcare system isn't as completely terrible as it is made out to be but it could be a lot better. And no, I don't have a solution. Im a complete idiot who screwed up my life; I have no fucking clue what to do. I just think it's fucked up that cancer patients are being arrested over debts, check this out:
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1066724

SpaceChimp
12-02-2013, 11:49 PM
Good discussions but I'm mainly curious if I should even get on MMT. Wish they could prescribe me ketamine for W/D, that would actually work in conjunction with a couple other things

Ravenous
12-03-2013, 12:03 AM
Good discussions but I'm mainly curious if I should even get on MMT. Wish they could prescribe me ketamine for W/D, that would actually work in conjunction with a couple other things

I LOVE Special K. It's actually pretty easy to get online if you don't mind taking the risk and you have the money to order it.
On the MMT question, think about it before you do it hon. MMT really helped me. It kept me off of heroin and pills. It kept me off of the needle. It also kept me out of jail. When I got on MMT I was on probation. I knew I couldn't stay clean on my own and I would have ended up in jail. I was on it for 7 years and I did a fast taper (I reccomend a slow taper) when I was ready to get off. I just definitely think anyone who wants to go on maintanance should give it a lot of thought first that's all. Just be sure that you really want it. Because there is definitely some bullshit that goes with it.

Zoops
12-13-2013, 12:01 PM
To JDub and Snoops. Much respect, and I hear you, but you're putting words in my mouth. First, I never actually connected the fact that someone doesn't speak English to the fact that they are a non-citizen. I know there are plenty of citizens (not many percentage-wise, but many in terms of sheer numbers) who don't speak a lick of English. I know these people are non-citizens, because in the course of casual banter, I have asked several of them if they were citizens. Many said, "yes, of course," but many said, "no, but I want to be."

Second, to imply that to put forth a political viewpoint (i.e., that the government shouldn't pick up the tab for feeding people's children) is tantamount to hate speech is anathema to the whole "freedom of speech in order to debate the issues" principle which is but one of those sadly disappearing from our political landscape. Often, people will imply that a viewpoint that they don't particularly agree with is "hate speech" when they can't find a better way to refute the point raised.

Let's be clear, I never said that these non-U.S. citizen WIC recipients are inferior to U.S. citizen WIC recipients, or that they should be done harm to, physically or otherwise. I was merely saying that it doesn't seem right for the government to have to shoulder the burden for what is unarguably 99% or more of the time, a completely voluntary act (to procreate). If that's not the case, then what are we, animals? To hold those poor, huddled masses coming from West Africa to a different standard than White Americans or Hispanic Americans or Black or Asian Americans would indeed be bigotry and smacks of racial superiority. I can hear it now: "Oh those poor Africans can't control their biological urges, they're like monkeys, they can't help themselves."

Since I KNOW they are not animals and are just as human as me, I hold them to the same standards as everyone else, which is "Don't have a child if you don't have the resources to support it." If you do, then you are definitely going to be fucked up in the game, son.

And of course, I support the legality of abortion, but I do think there should be a limit to those procedures performed in the first trimester only, unless some exigent circumstances apply. And even for involuntary impregnation (rape, or incestual rape, for example).

If a woman applying for WIC can show that she was impregnated against her will, then I'm all for supporting her children through state hand outs. Of course, it's easier to just go ahead and give that shit out to everybody, without looking well into the matter. If such a requirement were put into law, it's forseeable that the U.S. could become the 'rapiest' country on the face of the Erf, what with all the mommies cryin about how they were sexually brutalized, in order to get those precious WIC benefits. There would have to be some safeguards in place to keep that to a minimum.

It's just morally repugnant to me that the state acknowledges that it's o.k. for people not to be held accountable for their choices in reproducing. Don't get me started about all the other choices for which people are not held accountable. Cases where the parents previously did have the resources, but through some unexpected event, lost the ability to pay for their childrens' food, should be treated accordingly too, of course.

That's why education about reproductive issues should be taught from a very early age, say, starting at fifth grade (age 10), or earlier, even. And education about homosexuality and other issues too wouldn't hurt (some people are just different, little Jonny and Suzie, m'kay?)

And nobody better compare being addicted to drugs as a "choice" for which someone should be held accountable. Drug addiction is a recognized disease process, as opposed to sexual reproduction, which is clearly not.

I was jus' sayin is all.

You guys are all great human beings. And I love having this forum to kick the issues around with different-minded people.

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Good discussions but I'm mainly curious if I should even get on MMT. Wish they could prescribe me ketamine for W/D, that would actually work in conjunction with a couple other things

Under the Drug Addiction Treatment Act of 2002 (thank you senators Hatch, Biden, and Levin), a physician may prescribe schedule III, IV or V narcotic drugs specifically approved by the FDA for treatment of opioid addiction to patients. So, basically, as of now, that only refers to buprenorphine.

But, if you could find a real renegade physician, he is definitely able to prescribe ketamine in any way he chooses. "Off-label" uses for ketamine include treatment of depression, pain, and some other things I can't remember right now. So, it could be legitimized. I know a croaker (an Indian-American quack) over near where I live who would have done it without hesitation a few years ago, before he got in trouble with the Board of Medicine, but now he's still waiting for his DEA number to come through after jumping through all the hoops he had to jump through to get his medical license re-instated. (this guy was going full-tilt boogie, writing for oxycodone, morphine, fentanyl, Ritalin, adderal, Xanax, and Klonipin, and temazepam, to at least one single patient, and refilling those joints with just a phone call - he'd mail the C-II hard copies). It's all in the Board's Disciplinary records, which are public record. It's a good read, actually. I could help anyone out if they want to read this information of public record. So, anyway, I've been calling this dude about once a month since last January to find out if he got his DEA number back yet, and steel, no dice.

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As for methadone for maintenance, I believe it is only a matter of a short time before it achieves the same status as buprenorphine. I hope I'm right. And marijuana too.

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You know, CZ, I appreciate your sentiments, but to not place limits on abortion actually cuts into your "feed the children" no questions asked ethos.

Suppose that abortion was totally legal, up until the day of delivery. That would mean that babies, actual babies, would be slaughtered so that nobody would have to feed them. Still think that there should be no limits on abortion?

That doctor in PA just got life for doing "questionable" abortions over several years. A couple of his nurses got years of prison time for assisting him knowingly. He was actually cutting the spinal cords of babies that were born alive, in order to pronounce the whole thing an "abortion." These were babies born full-term. So, you still think that there ought to be NO restrictions on abortion at all? If so, you are truly a psychopath, my friend. And that doesn't mean that we can't still be friends. I currently maintain friendships with a few certifiably batshit-crazy people.

Just sayin is all.

Vico-Dan
12-17-2013, 09:27 AM
Umm, wow. That's about a bunch of hateful bullshit. You should start sourcing that crap instead of just spewing out this pessimist rhetorical hateful non-sense, someone might actually buy that crap... Quite sad, really. I bet it really sucks to live with such a narrow, hateful perspective.

I'm genuinely curious, does it hurt to hate so much??

Facts can be a real bitch at times. If you chose to live in denial, that's your choice, but don't call people "hateful" and "spewing non-sense" because you choose to be intellectually lazy.

Everything I posted is factual. Do I need to footnote and source everything to prove that I didn't just make shit up? Even if I did, you would likely refuse to believe it.

You have an internet connection. Use it. Or remain willfully ignorant.

Fat Pie
12-17-2013, 10:15 AM
Facts can be a real bitch at times. If you chose to live in denial, that's your choice, but don't call people "hateful" and "spewing non-sense" because you choose to be intellectually lazy.

Everything I posted is factual. Do I need to footnote and source everything to prove that I didn't just make shit up? Even if I did, you would likely refuse to believe it.

You have an internet connection. Use it. Or remain willfully ignorant.

I would be very careful calling chops wilfully ignorant.

If you cite studies that link back to white separatism and are lauded by Stormfront, you can't be surprised if you catch some flak for it.

Vico-Dan
12-17-2013, 11:07 AM
Coming from a country where everyone gets health insurance, and people living in below a certain standard of poverty (like me and my mum) basically get it for free. I have to pay 3€ for 3 weeks of 120mg methadone/day, and a TON of medications are included. Every doctor visit is free of charge, all I have to do is give him a sticker and he gets paid. It also ensures you get the cheapest form of your prescribed med (generics or whatever) among other benefits. It really is a great thing, and even though this change might cause some discomfort to people as the change gets implemented, I feel it is a big step forward for the US. Healthcare should be available to everyone, not based on how much money people make, we're all humans after all...

Nothing is "free" who do you think pays for "free" health care?

Working people are getting taxed to death. Punished for getting up early every day, going to a job they hate so they can subsidize people that make a career of "being on the dole" and collecting every "free" benefit they can get their hands on.

How is this different than being robbed at gunpoint? The only difference is that the government forces the ambitious, hard-working people that wish to better themselves with the threat of fines and jail time if they don't turn over a significant part of thier earnings to support many people that choose not to work.

And the "Obamacare" health bill is a disaster. Millions of Americans are seeing cancellation notices or having their premiums double and triple. Who is going to foot the bill for them? How are people going to afford health care that once cost them $300 a month $600 a month or more? Not to mention having their deductible jump from $500 to $2,500? Where is that money going to come from? Who is going to subsidize the Millions that will lose their health care or have to pay double for their existing plan?

This is a good thing? For who? The 10% that will benefit at the expense of the 90%?

80% of the public was happy with their health care. That number is now about half and the full brunt of Obamacare hasn't even hit.
Why do you think Obama is trying to put off implementation until after the 2014 elections? Because the Democrats are going to take a beating at the polls in the mid-term elections.

Obama will be long gone, but will leave a path of wreckage to the US behind.

Why are Unions exempt? And other entities that financially supported Obama's campaign?

Why is Congress exempt. They get the "Gold" health care plan at taxpayer expense. Fuck that. They voted for this fiasco, let them live by the same rules we have to.
They are servants, not royalty. Make them live by the laws that they pass.

We're just creating more and more people that have decided it's easier to live off of other people's hard work than to work themselves when the Government will take care of them with free housing, free health care, cash benefits, food stamps, free phones, financial aid to pay their utilities and a host of other "free" services.

Again, who is paying for that - the Government? And where does the Government get the money? From taxpayers that work their asses off.

I've been paying into Social Security for years. I will get a modest monthly sum if I'm lucky unless the US goes bankrupt and can't pay out, and once I do, I'm out of here. This once great country has turned into a country of dependents living off of those that are ambitious and choose to better themselves while others sleep till noon and lounge about all day in front of the TV.
The US has circled the drain, all in the name of "leveling the playing field" and other BS phrases to disguise the true intent and that is to turn America into a Socialist country. One that will fail.
Maybe they can try for full blown Communism. That always works as well.

And perhaps the US wouldn't have to go to war to protect their interests in the Middle East if they extracted the billions of barrels of oil they are sitting on.
Instead, we probably do go to war for oil, because if we didn't, the economic damage would lead to a collapse of the US economy.
It's a national security issue, not some scheme to line the pockets of the rich. That's just ignorance and intellectual laziness.

No reason why the US can't become a self-supporting, fiscally sound country like Norway where health care is "free" because they are the world's 8th largest exporter of oil and have the money to provide services instead of forcing working people to pay for deadbeats and their sloth-like lifestyle.

Ironically, Norway still has a miniscule Unemployment rate, much like the US Government at around 3.5%
Meanwhile, for the rest of us, Unemployment is double that at 7% and the underemployment rate is double that at over 17%
In other words, that's a lot of "McJobs"
Not to mention the people that are no longer counted as unemployed because they are no longer eligible for unemployment benefits.
The true unemployment rate in the private sector remains at over 10%.

But at least we're giving deadbeats "free" everything. Thankfully, they don't have to suffer like us working people that get up early every day and go to a job we hate and working with a bunch of assholes that smile in your face then stab you in the back.

And as the number of freebee recipients grow, working people see less and less of their paycheck. Then some people wonder why I'm pissed off and call me "narrow minded and hateful?

Take a look from my perspective. You'd be pissed off as well.

End of rant.

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Umm, wow. That's about a bunch of hateful bullshit. You should start sourcing that crap instead of just spewing out this pessimist rhetorical hateful non-sense, someone might actually buy that crap... Quite sad, really. I bet it really sucks to live with such a narrow, hateful perspective.

I'm genuinely curious, does it hurt to hate so much??

No, it's not "hateful bullshit" it's fact. Try opening your narrow mind. Everything I posted is factual. You have an internet connection just like I do. Stop being intellectually lazy and do some research and try to refute the facts I posted without resorting to immature name-calling and meaningless buzzwords.

Yeah, I'm a "hater" because I work my ass off and barely see 60% of my earnings while others that choose not to work and better themselves get "free" housing, food, health care, phone service, assistance with utilities, cash payments in the form of welfare or "General Assistance" and are living off of the sweat of others?

Who do you think pays for all this "free" shit? People like myself. And if we don't pay our taxes, we get fined and even go to jail. What's the difference between that and having someone put a gun to your head and take what's in your pockets? It's just another form of theft.

What? I'm supposed to be happy supporting some asshole that laughs at me and calls me 'stupid' because I choose to work while he chooses to sleep until noon and sit his worthless ass in front of a TV all day?

Fuck that. I'm going to start writing these assholes off as dependents on my taxes.

I bet if these people had their free stuff taxed at 40%, you would hear some genuine hate and anger, not to mention seeing them engage in "civil disobedience" aka, rioting, which is the only time they get off of the couch.

I don't mind paying taxes. I don't mind my taxes helping the elderly, the sick and victims of circumstances. I mind paying excessive taxes to support assholes that live off of the sweat of others, and call people "stupid" and laugh at us because we want a better life for ourselves and are ambitious, not like these people that sleep until noon and lounge around all day. Must be nice work if you can get it.

Personally, I would die of boredom and would rather go to a shitty job all day and work with a bunch of jerks than rot away like that. What will happen to these people if they ever had to fend for themselves in case of an emergency, even for a few days? They would sit around complaining that the government isn't doing enough to help them while people like myself would be volunteering to help our selves and our neighbors instead of waiting for Uncle Sam to lift them out of their self-made crib.

Nothing is "free" someone has to pay for it. If they want all this free shit and they are capable of working, their is plenty they can do; clean up graffiti, pick up trash, perform volunteer work. Instead, they selfishly refuse because that would require personal sacrifice. Like I said, the mentality of entitlement is debilitating.

How can anyone *not* "hate" assholes like them?

Sadly the number of people like this continues to make up a larger percent of the population every year. Many by choice.
If someone can get a free apartment via Section 8 housing or nearly free, get free medical that costs me $400 a month, get free cash benefits of $389 per month, get free food in the form of an EBT card of $200 a month, a free cell phone, assistance with utilities, free bus passes, etc...(These numbers are for a single person in California) then what motivation do they have to work? None.

Meanwhile, my paycheck continues to shrink because the number of these people continue to grow.

What happens when the weight of these freeloaders overloads the system and the number of taxpayers?

The economy will crash, then everyone will be fucked, that's what will happen.

Some people are too myopic to see the obvious, or the unfairness of getting up early every day, busting your ass and getting overtaxed to support assholes that laugh at the very same people that fund their lifestyle.

And there's a difference between "hate" and being pissed off at being taken advantage of by laws that allow this shit to happen.

Oh, and for "Snoops" that says "STFU and stop whining" how about we cut your SSDI payments by 40% and tell you to "STFU and to stop whining"?
I bet you wouldn't like it when the shoe is on the other foot. You would be howling the loudest at how "unfair" the system is and how it favors the rich and other vapid bullshit.

Same with making statements like "people "Work the System"..... Deal With It!!! Fuck....I gotta deal with you.!"

No, you don't have to deal with me. You can ignore me. I, however, don't have the choice to "ignore" the assholes gaming the system which hurts those that are truly needy, yourself included. Again, myopic thinking. IF you want even consider that as "thinking"

No wonder our country is so fucked up. People can't see past today or see the consequences of irresponsible actions and rewarding those that choose to "game the system" while punishing those that work and are ambitious.

Fat Pie
12-17-2013, 11:19 AM
Nothing is "free" who do you think pays for "free" health care?

Working people are getting taxed to death. Punished for getting up early every day, going to a job they hate so they can subsidize people that make a career of "being on the dole" and collecting every "free" benefit they can get their hands on.

How is this different than being robbed at gunpoint? The only difference is that the government forces the ambitious, hard-working people that wish to better themselves with the threat of fines and jail time if they don't turn over a significant part of thier earnings to support many people that choose not to work.

I'm sorry, but isn't one of the ideas of healthcare based on tax to allow people to pay into a national system that will pick up the slack in their time of need, and prevents price gouging by private companies? You're predicating your criticism on the fact that only 'deatbeats' are going to be using these systems, which is just silly. I owe my buprenorphine maintenance here to a National Health Service, the NHS.

And if being on 'free' benefits is such a lark, why the hell are 91% of those benefits going directly to the elderly, disabled or working households?:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3677

How exactly can a working household be described as lazy?


80% of the public was happy with their health care. That number is now about half and the full brunt of Obamacare hasn't even hit.

Actually, the number of Americans who rate their own healthcare as good or excellent is around 67%, down from 72% last year:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159455/americans-satisfaction-health-coverage-slips-slightly.aspx

It's when it comes to rating whether the government should be covering healthcare at all that the numbers drop that far, but prior to 2009, "a majority always felt the government should ensure healthcare coverage for all, though Americans' views have become more divided in recent years":

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158966/majority-against-gov-healthcare-guarantee.aspx


Why is Congress exempt. They get the "Gold" health care plan at taxpayer expense. Fuck that. They voted for this fiasco, let them live by the same rules we have to. They are servants, not royalty. Make them live by the laws that they pass.

That's a bogus factoid you got there, Congress is not exempt from 'Obamacare':

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/28thamendment.asp#S3UCDi7oJIZ9zz2T.99

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/congressional-exemption-obamacare-another-myth-153149342.html


We're just creating more and more people that have decided it's easier to live off of other people's hard work than to work themselves when the Government will take care of them with free housing, free health care, cash benefits, food stamps, free phones, financial aid to pay their utilities and a host of other "free" services.

Again, who is paying for that - the Government? And where does the Government get the money? From taxpayers that work their asses off.

I've been paying into Social Security for years. I will get a modest monthly sum if I'm lucky unless the US goes bankrupt and can't pay out, and once I do, I'm out of here. This once great country has turned into a country of dependents living off of those that are ambitious and choose to better themselves while others sleep till noon and lounge about all day in front of the TV.

Is this a citation or is it more rhetoric?


The US has circled the drain, all in the name of "leveling the playing field" and other BS phrases to disguise the true intent and that is to turn America into a Socialist country. One that will fail.

Maybe they can try for full blown Communism. That always works as well.

Yeah, a conversation about Obama wouldn't be complete without 'communism' and 'socialism' being thrown around like the word 'irony'.


No reason why the US can't become a self-supporting, fiscally sound country like Norway where health care is "free" because they are the world's 8th largest exporter of oil and have the money to provide services instead of forcing working people to pay for deadbeats and their sloth-like lifestyle.

Norway also happens to be a country of only 5 million people. I think there might be more to it than the 'work ethic' you cited previously.

You know which country also has low unemployment? Cuba. They're around the same as Norway, 3.5% or so. I guess communism is working out for someone (even if they are still using ration cards)...


But at least we're giving deadbeats "free" everything. Thankfully, they don't have to suffer like us working people that get up early every day and go to a job we hate and working with a bunch of assholes that smile in your face then stab you in the back.

And as the number of freebee recipients grow, working people see less and less of their paycheck. Then some people wonder why I'm pissed off and call me "narrow minded and hateful?

Take a look from my perspective. You'd be pissed off as well.

End of rant.

Wow, you make unemployment sound easy.

Do you have any citations for all this, or are you just angry at the world for being unfair?

To answer your earlier question, yes, you do need to footnote and source things if you're going to make wild, sweeping claims about large parts of US society. This is the internet, anyone can have an opinion. But facts are hard to come by.


I don't mind paying taxes. I don't mind my taxes helping the elderly, the sick and victims of circumstances.

Well good, because that's where 91% of benefits are going, along with people who are already having to work a job.


If someone can get a free apartment via Section 8 housing or nearly free, get free medical that costs me $400 a month, get free cash benefits of $389 per month, get free food in the form of an EBT card of $200 a month, a free cell phone, assistance with utilities, free bus passes, etc...(These numbers are for a single person in California) then what motivation do they have to work? None.

Once again, 91% of benefits = the disabled, the elderly and working households.

chopstix
12-17-2013, 11:45 AM
Facts can be a real bitch at times. If you chose to live in denial, that's your choice, but don't call people "hateful" and "spewing non-sense" because you choose to be intellectually lazy.

Everything I posted is factual. Do I need to footnote and source everything to prove that I didn't just make shit up? Even if I did, you would likely refuse to believe it.

You have an internet connection. Use it. Or remain willfully ignorant.

He's angry at the world Pie, cos things don't run exactly as he thinks they should, I mean, who the fuck ARE all these people in his way and how fucking dare them?

Dude you're the one spewing "facts" and figures, maybe it's you who should be posting sources.

I truly don't give a fuck if you think I'm ignorant, the very last thing I need is validation from a hateful blowhard like you, I know better than to waste my time - if I was bored, maybe, but I'm not...

Hate on, brah..

I'm getting medi-cal, and it's about fucking time I got some medical help. I've worked for it and I fucking deserve it. GOP be damned.

spore
12-23-2013, 07:45 AM
Well yeah, when I hear an argument and see evidence which clearly states that black people are predisposed to being violent criminals as opposed to white people, I feel obligated to at least scrutinise that.

AGREED. The majority of serial killers, domestic terrorists, presidental assassins, postal service workers going postal, rampage killers and that fucker out in Bath, Illinois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe). Can all be considered white, to name a few.

I think the common perception of black people being violent criminals has more to do with prejudice, eons and eons of it. Prejudice is most likely a nasty, insidious scar left over probably as a defense mechanism that has ties with natural urges, primal instinct and it has leaked into modern societies large and small, collective beliefs and fears about someone different. Pretty much xenophobia. Like a battery leaking it's corrosive and poisonous chemicals into society, hive minds, communities and our brains.

It's hard wired into our brains from eons and eons of being paranoid, on edge, hyper alert, prejudice, scared and at times violent to another tribe to protect territory, scare off outsiders or other cliques of primates that threaten and feel threatened when they happen across a waterhole and a huge black monolith appears and witnessed different, weird, odd tribes which were seen as a threat or something to be feared.

Obviously not all black people are violent criminals. You can always find some cherry picked evidence to help make your confirmation bias stronger.

But you can't deny the existence of any person, black, white, mexican to name a few that have displayed anti-social behaviour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behavior) not to be confused with Asociality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asociality) (one of my BIGGEST pet peeves is when someone refers to themselves as anti-social because they isolate, like being alone, have no friends and don't go out and interact with other humans UGH), violence and other atrocities. I think nature vs. nurture contributes as well. Good parenting, instilling strong morals and showing an active roll in a childs life is of the utmost importance.

My take? Homo Sapiens are fucking sadistic, mean spirited motherfuckers. If aliens showed up and saw how we treat each other and other living creatures we'd be labeled savages and our civilization would be scoffed at.

Just read this if you want to see how sick humans can be, its an extreme example but I think we have an innate need and propensity to do sick, sadistic horrible things. Caution the following link is extremely shocking, but man are we humans fucked up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

Fear is the mindkiller, embrace love, altruism and compassion.