This forum moderated by Clare Waismann of Opiates.com

[bi11i]

Our Anesthesia Assisted Detox forum is now moderated by Clare Waismann, a key figure on the leading Anesthesia Assisted Medical Opiate Detox scene. Clare has kindly agreed (although extremely busy herself in answering over 100 emails daily) to make herself as available as her schedule permits in answering any questions concerning this method of treatment.

Opiophile.org is backing the Waismann method of detox, based on their position in treating addiction is a medical condition or disease. While Opiophile.org is not a recovery board, we do believe in providing information concering all avenues in effectively treating opiate addiction (for those what wish to be treated.)

Their website can be viewed at www.opiates.com (http://www.opiates.com). Her Opioprofile can be viewed here (http://forum.opiophile.org/member.php?u=842).

From their website:
The Waismann Method sm of rapid detox treats opiate dependency (http://www.opiates.com/opiate-addiction.html) as a physical disease, one that can be overcome by utilizing advanced medical techniques. Traditional drug detox programs have a success rate of less than 10% after the first year. These statistics are even grimmer two years after treatment.
Traditional, ineffective drug detox programs are a thing of the past. The Waismann Method sm maintains its leading position in treating the disease of opiate physical dependency and sets the standard by which other treatments are measured. We are committed to changing the way the world views drug dependency. It is no longer a hidden and shameful disease of the stereotypical "drug addict," but rather a medical disease caused by a legitimate chemical imbalance.

[jacky]

Clare has stated in a message to me that there are other places treating people with a rapid detox treatment that differs from the method they use in ways, that is why the name waissman method is used to differentiate between anesthesia aided detox treatments. The author was not specific in where these differences in treatment protocol lay. I have knocked this method in the past, but only from the standpoint of knowing people that have had similiar procedures and werent impressed. I have taken naltrexone for months at a time, but I was given a two week taper on klonipin, tegretol, and muscle relaxants preliminary to going on naltrexone, with a two week wait in between. I am interested in hearing some testimonials at some point and keeping an open mind. the ratios listed for the Waismann concerning recovery are pretty good, something to look into.

[Paregoric Kid]

Has any real scientific research been done on this method? Any double blind experiments that compare this method to bup, methadone, cold turkey, etc and the success rates between them? I see a lot of testimonials but they don't mean anything. Science cannot rely on testimonials it can only rely on the scientific method. Testimonials are frequently used to sell pseudoscience. If there is no real scientific evidence behind this, then their claims are meaningless.

[bi11i]

My interest lays in not having to endure a two-week run at being dope-sick. I know that Clare is busy; hopefully she'll have some time to make it over here and answer a few questions....

[Waismann]

I am here to answer any of your questions. Regarding the comparasson between The Waismann Method , Methadone and Buprinex....Let me try to make this clear. Methadone is a "replacement" drug , that is more addictive than most opiates out there. I see patients all the time that have been switched from a prescription opiate to Methadone, and now they have a way bigger problem coming off. Buprinex is half opiate and half antagonist, and it is addictive as well. We are detoxing patients more and more from it weekly. The pharmaceutical companies again have done a great job on marketing a drug, that is addictive with the promise to clean people. They kept it to a minimun supply in the first years, so there would be all this hype on being able to get it...And then they will release it in hopes ,patients will needed for long term and they can keep selling it.Regarding scientific research, there is alot ...Look into detoxification of opiates under anesthesia.....Listen, I don't extract my teeth without anesthesia, I cannot think of any medical instance when pain is present for a treatment that a doctor will not try to alleviate the patient with his best knowledge.Why are drug dependent the only patients that should suffer?

[Paregoric Kid]

so you can't send me a link to a double blind study that compares this method to other forms of detox? how does the waismann method determine if a patient is physically dependent?

[oxysprings]

I am here to answer any of your questions. Regarding the comparasson between The Waismann Method , Methadone and Buprinex....Let me try to make this clear. Methadone is a "replacement" drug , that is more addictive than most opiates out there. I see patients all the time that have been switched from a prescription opiate to Methadone, and now they have a way bigger problem coming off. Buprinex is half opiate and half antagonist, and it is addictive as well. We are detoxing patients more and more from it weekly. The pharmaceutical companies again have done a great job on marketing a drug, that is addictive with the promise to clean people. They kept it to a minimun supply in the first years, so there would be all this hype on being able to get it...And then they will release it in hopes ,patients will needed for long term and they can keep selling it.Regarding scientific research, there is alot ...Look into detoxification of opiates under anesthesia.....Listen, I don't extract my teeth without anesthesia, I cannot think of any medical instance when pain is present for a treatment that a doctor will not try to alleviate the patient with his best knowledge.Why are drug dependent the only patients that should suffer?

[oxysprings]

I've been down the Suboxone road. What a waste of time and misery. For me at least./ i want to beleive in the Wiasmann Method but I have to be able to communicate with somebody who's gone through it. The cost, for me, is tremendous. I am willing to empty my bank account if only I felt nore confident in the reality of the process. How can the Waissmann Clinic do in 20-30 hours what other Doctors contend will take weeks.

Please, if anyone who has been to Waismann is willing to share, I and I'm sure many others would be eternally graetful.

[MrodsGrl]

Hi Oxysprings,
I am writing from Midwest Rapid Opiate Detoxification Specialists. We have locations in Chicago & Los Angeles. We can privately connect you with some individuals who are willing to share their experiences of rapid detox. Please contact our director, Greg Simpson at 888-707-4673 for more information about our services, competitive pricing or to speak with someone who has been through our program.
Feel free to email me as well.
Thanks,
Priscilla Murphy

[blackdog]

this was a joke ....what a mistake ..can you say sp..sp.....spammmmmm:rolleyes:

[Coddfish]

WoW, I had never seen this. opiorg doesn't still support this do they? I would be sorely disappointed if they did.

[antony]

their location is by DePaul Universty at the hospital there. Used to live down the street from it. If you know that area, you know the people can afford to become junkies and then run to there and get clean. Its like putting a Porsche dealership in a wealthy area. Key demographics.

They're just selling a product like anyone else.

[shaunclo]

I have been told this so many times before, and now I am telling it.......there is no magic bullet. If you wanna fuck around with opies, well than you gotta pay to play.

But if there is a new anesthesia method (other than the one I have been hearing horror stories about) than I am all ears. Even though I would never be able to pay around 10 grand for a procedure like this. I wouldnt even be bale to pay 5 grand......shit I wouldnt even be able to pay 1 grand.

[shaunclo]

Actually if you think about how much money you really do spend on dope, 5 grand comes pretty fast. Atleast it did when I was using daily.

[antony]

Actually if you think about how much money you really do spend on dope, 5 grand comes pretty fast. Atleast it did when I was using daily.

the same for me, but if someone came up and said i'll give you five grand cash to go get clean, I'd take the five grand buy a load of pills, lock myself in my room, and eventually get clean on my own.

I don't care about anyones depth of their addiction, if you wanna get clean, all it takes is some will and time. save your money for the vacation afterward.

[nick]

Hi all,Does anyone know if rapid detox is available anywhere in the UK.I've been an addict 20 years,the last 15 using diamorphine every(you better believe it)day and man is it old now.I genuinely want to get clean,but unless I find more help than I'm being offered I'm screwed.

[robojunkie]

Just google "radpid detox uk". first hit.

[nick]

Yeah,just googled it and as i suspected the only Dr in the UK who is doing anything on these lines,a guy called Colin Brewer, is about to have his license pulled due to the death of an addict under his care.
The other private rapid detox options are for crap like Naltrexone implants.Which are as much use to me as a hole in the head.
I guess I either get on a plane or get on with it old school.

[dorje]

I drove a friend to a Waisman detox. He was eating 100mg Fentanyl patches. When he left the program he still had WD symptoms but reduced considerably. He hocked his house to pay for the bill. Then he went back and got on pain pills again.
What science has not conquered is the change in opiate receptors that occurs for us addicts. You can be clean, stub your toe and want pain meds. As Burroughs says, you can't beat the mark inside.
All detox methods are business deals. They all sell hope. You can get physically clean but the question is how you get the urge out of your mind ? Whatever works for you is best. Good luck.

[Dexter the Meth Orphan]

Getting past the wd is the most imperative part of any treatment. If a person is treated and then released and still has withdraws, they are very likely to start dosing again to stop the symptoms. As for killing the "urge" with treatment, it isn’t going to happen. You have given your body something that it grew fond of. Not even the pain from withdraws will make you think twice about giving your body what it wants. The urge is mental for the most part after withdraws have past.

For anyone wanting to use a treatment to detox, consider your wallet first because being broke is going to be a perfect excuse to get loaded to the brim on your DOC. Then, consider the treatment success rate because who wants to spill out 15 grand for a treatment that has a mere 67% success rate? Most importantly, consider whether or not you really want to quit with all the fiber of your being. If you don't, no amount of treatment is going to help you. You might be fine for a few days after release (probably not even that) but the first chance you get to make an excuse to use, you're going to take it.

As for this program, the only post in this thread by Waismann spouts an empty statement about not having teeth extracted without the use of anesthetics. That’s wonderful, but I wouldn't give you 15 cents much less 15,000 dollars for a program when that post was the best you could do. I am not attacking anyone, so that we have that straight. I simply can not believe that anyone in their right mind would shill out that much cash for a treatment that thus far is represented by a poorly designed web page, a 67% success rate, a couple "who gives a shit" links for their publicity on network television and a person that can not even type proper English as displayed in this thread. Very meager program representation if you ask me.

[sebastian869]

I am here to answer any of your questions. Regarding the comparasson between The Waismann Method , Methadone and Buprinex....Let me try to make this clear. Methadone is a "replacement" drug , that is more addictive than most opiates out there. I see patients all the time that have been switched from a prescription opiate to Methadone, and now they have a way bigger problem coming off. Buprinex is half opiate and half antagonist, and it is addictive as well. We are detoxing patients more and more from it weekly. The pharmaceutical companies again have done a great job on marketing a drug, that is addictive with the promise to clean people. They kept it to a minimun supply in the first years, so there would be all this hype on being able to get it...And then they will release it in hopes ,patients will needed for long term and they can keep selling it.Regarding scientific research, there is alot ...Look into detoxification of opiates under anesthesia.....Listen, I don't extract my teeth without anesthesia, I cannot think of any medical instance when pain is present for a treatment that a doctor will not try to alleviate the patient with his best knowledge.Why are drug dependent the only patients that should suffer?


Hello Clair, I dont mean to be hostil but I disagree with you're statement that its the "drug companies" that restrict the drug and its a sales tactic. As you well know the reason suboxone and its relatives are not available in larger numbers is CONGRESS, though hopefuly these laws will change and allow clinics to make prescriptions and take more then 30 patients. I have a great artice on the topic that I will add as soon as I look in my comp history and find it. Never the less, I also disagree that "rapid-detox" is some kind of panacea, the problem as you well know is the "psychological" addiction in most people NOT the physical one. Just about ever one can be detoxes with methadone in 3 weeks at most with out ANY pain or WD. I dont think it matters one bit weather the patient is detox rapidly or slowly. The problem most of us face is the tape after detox. I'm personally a prescription drug addict and have come off before, the reasone I have not stayed clean for life is becouse I had 3 back operations (so my case is not the normal black/white clean/not as we think of when discussing addicts). But lets go back to the "normal" addict to make it more simple, the one who has no medical reason to be on opiates. I dont think much changes for him if he/she is detoxed over 1 hr or one month. The hard thing to concur is the time after the detox. I would imagine that you offer post-detax therapy as well (for if you did not, your success record would be horrible). Here is a link I came across when I was looking for the "wired" article on suboxone (or another drug name) and came across this one by accident.

http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/20891/

I will post the article as soon as I get home, to narrate it (it says that the fact that buprinex and its co drugs are not prescribed more often is a tragedy, that its more effective then methadone and more that I cant remember.

Lastly, I disagree with you're attack on methadone. I (and my fiance, later) was given methadone for pain. Its not any harder for an average person to come off methadone then it is to come off avinza/oxycontin etc.. and othe long lasting opiates. (thats from personal experierience) I was originally addicted to roxycodone and as you know its shorter lasting then meth but I detoxed with methadone and had no problems coming off it after being lowerd over a two week period. The problem I had then and have now is the psychological addiction and the fact that I have real back pain and if I go back on opiates I have problems once again.

Can you please tell me what are the real success rates with whe wiseman method? and what is the difference between it and the hospital offered rapid detox.


Thanks,
Sebastian

[sebastian869]

I've been down the Suboxone road. What a waste of time and misery. For me at least./ i want to beleive in the Wiasmann Method but I have to be able to communicate with somebody who's gone through it. The cost, for me, is tremendous. I am willing to empty my bank account if only I felt nore confident in the reality of the process. How can the Waissmann Clinic do in 20-30 hours what other Doctors contend will take weeks.

Please, if anyone who has been to Waismann is willing to share, I and I'm sure many others would be eternally graetful.

(though I have not tried rapid detox (for cost reasons) I dont think its worth the money) I can tell you that in patiend detox with methadone works just fine and its painless. Though I got lucky, since I actually found a doc who really cared and put my in-patient in beth isreal (even though they have no detox in patient). When I went to the "clinics" it sucked, peopel there were not really there to get clean, just to fuck, sleep, rest and get free drugs cuz they ran out. Needless to say those attemps did not work, it takes a place that is really well directed and intended for the job. (I guess you'd have to spend money for that either way) Though I cant see it costing 10-15k. Or the other option is to get a meth script and do it at home. (prob for me is I cant manage that script, so I need someone to hold one to it and give me the meds as needed)

[Chipper]

I have known only one person who did this and they were using within weeks. The same person eventually detoxed slowly with a combination of methadone then bupe at the end. He is still off opiates.

This may sound trite and you have heard it before but "staying off is harder coming off". I think that Rapid Detox has a high relapse rate. Correct me if I am wrong.

If you go through a procedure that is relatively short and painless, I think you don't have as much respect for it when compared to slow and steady.

[HistoryofMadness]

there are 2 phases of withdrawl and they are inversely proportional... so if you shrink the first phase to 1/4th of the regular time it takes, then you are multiplying the second phase by a factor of 4.

this is not a theory. i'll get the science if you need it...

anyway the problem with rapid detox is the following:

the second phase of WD is already significantly longer than the first, so doing anything to make that longer is stupid.

especially if shortening the first phase to 1 day means drawing the second phase out into nearly a year.

[Waismann]

Dear Sebastian,

we offer the best medicine has to offer for a patient that do want get off opiates...But with that said we are just another option......Everyone is different and have different needs. regarding the cost , I will give a bit of what we offer for 4 days and you tell me if that is too much. i believe we have been able to get a great offer financially to our patients for the care they get..

Day 1
Patients are admitted to a full service hospital ( it is primordial that this procedure is performed in a full service hospital where we have the assistance of different specialty doctors for any issue that might surface) the day before the procedure for a complete medical evaluation which includes but is not limited to a history, physical exam, evaluation of kidney and liver function and blood evaluation. Patients also have a Chest X-Ray and an electrocardiogram and sometimes an exercise stress test if indicated.
Patents are started on the Waismann Method pre-medication protocol (Because this is a pharmacological procedure that uses different pharmaceutical to achieve a goal, it is imperative to understand how the patient react and metabolize to certain drugs in order to successfully and safely achieve detoxification) During this day patients receive an intravenous infusion of morphine through a PCA to prevent withdrawal. Medications are used to lower the acid content of the stomach and also to blunt the adrenalin or adrenergic response to withdrawal.

Day 2
Patients are transferred to the intensive care unit (ICU)to ensure safety, where they receive higher doses of pre medications and heavy sedative medications. When patients are appropriately sedated and pre-medicated, they are put under anesthesia and an acute withdrawal is precipitated while the patient is unconscious. This medically induced withdrawal is controlled and closely monitored by either Dr. Bernstein or Dr. Lowenstein; board certified anesthesiologists who are nationally recognized for there expertise in the use of the Waismann Method. Patients are under anesthesia for only 1 to 2 hours, after which time they are closely monitored with individual nursing for the rest of the day and night. Patients are medicated as needed to try and minimize symptoms. Patients are asleep under anesthesia and so they feel nothing, nor do they have any recollection of their withdrawal once they are awake. Most patients feel groggy and experience mild discomfort after detoxification. Our medical staff is trained to ensure patient comfort before and after the detoxification procedure.


Day 3
Patients are transferred back to the medical floor where they recover for the withdrawal procedure, receive intravenous fluids and regain their strength. Patients are encouraged to ambulate and eat. Doctors will assess patient’s transitions and body functions. About 65% of patients are ready for discharge by the afternoon, either to Domus an aftercare facility or home with a family member.

Day 4
Is for patients that have slower metabolism, pain issues or other medical condition that requires a longer supervised recovery.

The Waismann Method protocol is designed based on each patients medical and dependency history. The pre evaluation and assessment is imperative to the success of this procedure. Other places that claim to perform “rapid-detox’ continue to compromise the success of this procedure and the safety of its patients by reducing the time patients spend in the hospital in order to reduce costs.
We will not minimize or compromise the medical assistance needed to ensure the quality of care required and given to our patients…
We will not settle for a clinic and/or surgery centers where the medical assistance a patient may require are not accessible….
We will not send our patients to a hotel room immediately after procedure where the appropriate medical assessment and supervision will not be present to assist in the transition.
We are proud to offer our patients the best medicine has to offer for opiate dependency… Patients receive 24-hour monitoring and observation from admission to discharge, all within a fully accredited hospital.
The major difference between the Waismann Method of detoxification and other medical detoxifications is safety, comfort and success of our patients.

[Waismann]

67% is higher then anything ever offered for this disease. Regarding my English, it is my 2nd language and it allows me to help a very large number of people that DO want help.....

[Waismann]

Hello Clair, I dont mean to be hostil but I disagree with you're statement that its the "drug companies" that restrict the drug and its a sales tactic. As you well know the reason suboxone and its relatives are not available in larger numbers is CONGRESS, though hopefuly these laws will change and allow clinics to make prescriptions and take more then 30 patients. I have a great artice on the topic that I will add as soon as I look in my comp history and find it. Never the less, I also disagree that "rapid-detox" is some kind of panacea, the problem as you well know is the "psychological" addiction in most people NOT the physical one. Just about ever one can be detoxes with methadone in 3 weeks at most with out ANY pain or WD. I dont think it matters one bit weather the patient is detox rapidly or slowly. The problem most of us face is the tape after detox. I'm personally a prescription drug addict and have come off before, the reasone I have not stayed clean for life is becouse I had 3 back operations (so my case is not the normal black/white clean/not as we think of when discussing addicts). But lets go back to the "normal" addict to make it more simple, the one who has no medical reason to be on opiates. I dont think much changes for him if he/she is detoxed over 1 hr or one month. The hard thing to concur is the time after the detox. I would imagine that you offer post-detax therapy as well (for if you did not, your success record would be horrible). Here is a link I came across when I was looking for the "wired" article on suboxone (or another drug name) and came across this one by accident.

http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/20891/

I will post the article as soon as I get home, to narrate it (it says that the fact that buprinex and its co drugs are not prescribed more often is a tragedy, that its more effective then methadone and more that I cant remember.

Lastly, I disagree with you're attack on methadone. I (and my fiance, later) was given methadone for pain. Its not any harder for an average person to come off methadone then it is to come off avinza/oxycontin etc.. and othe long lasting opiates. (thats from personal experierience) I was originally addicted to roxycodone and as you know its shorter lasting then meth but I detoxed with methadone and had no problems coming off it after being lowerd over a two week period. The problem I had then and have now is the psychological addiction and the fact that I have real back pain and if I go back on opiates I have problems once again.

Can you please tell me what are the real success rates with whe wiseman method? and what is the difference between it and the hospital offered rapid detox.


Thanks,
Sebastian

[Waismann]

This is a message in another blog....
Comment: Jeanne Katz says in her comments that she doesn't talk disrespectfully about other detox facilities and then proceeds to knock the Waisman Method on their own board. I think that the fact that Clare leaves those types of comments up and responds to them directly represent the drive that the whole Waisman staff have to answer all questions and criticisms and provide the absolute best care possible. I went through the Waisman Method and am doing great. It saved my life, family and reputation. I would never consider going through a procedure as serious as rapid detox in any outpatient facility. My father in law who had a heart attack several years ago just had 2 teeth removed and the extraction required minor surgery. The dentist originally scheduled the procedure for the outpatient surgical center but called the day before to say he had decided to do it in the intensive care unit of the local hospital. All of that because of concerns regarding 45 minutes of light anethesia. An outpatient surgery center is not the place to discover you have a heart problem or anesthesia allergy. Rapid detox is a serious procedure and is very stressful. I stayed in ICU for 28 hours after the detox and had ICU nurses constantly monitoring me. After the doctor is convinced that you're in the clear you go to Domus House for several more days. In my case 5 days. At Domus you are provided with all of your needs by a truely wonderful staff who are there for you 24 hours a day. At Domus you have a beautiful, soothing enviroment staffed by people who know how to comfort and encourage you. You don't want to spend you recovery days in a hotel room alone or with a family member who is trying to fathom what you're going through and the thought of riding or flying the first few days after detox is horrifying to me. You need those days in a specialized facilty to recover your strength and start healing your mind and body. You are provided a great deal of counseling at Domus and that contact and couneling continues after you return home. They will confer with your home physician and or therapist if you so desire to ensure continuity of treatment. You are also given a several phone numbers you can call anytime should you find yourself having any type of problem or fear of relapse. I'm not rich. I'm very much middle class, but you get what you pay for. Think of what one day in any ICU costs anymore. Let alone the cost of the detox , care at Domus and follw up care. When you consider the program in it's entirety it's well worth the cost. It's only slightly more expensive than a nice funeral. My health and success at kicking my dependency to presciption painkillers was worth seeking out the best and most knowlegeable people. I know how wonderful and thorough the Waisman Method is. They are the absolute best in my book at rapid detox and recovery. You can see all comments on this post here: http://www.rapiddetox.net

[HeidiW]

Wow, the prospect of giving up this bullshit for a few thousand is not only exciting, it's very depressing. Money REALLY does make the world go around. I'm surprised the govt. doesn't stop this, as they make more $$$$ with drugs being illegal.
Rehab is a big $$$ maker, no doubt.

Am I crazy or is there some truth in my paramilitant-opiated thinking?

[freedomclub]

This thread is gonna be fun.

[tptptp]

Please don't buy into this. I've heard of many people who've done this rapid detox and have yet to hear of one success story. Primary WD is nothing, charging someone a fortune to go through primary WD and then leaving them with secondary is a scam IMO. I'd bet if it is successful for a year it's because this cost so damn much that the user cant afford to get any more opiates!

Replacement therapy isn't a cakewalk or sure-fire way to do things either but to insinuate how awful they are, why dont you just go out in the street and start killing people now?

More addictive? Technically nicotine is more addictive; well thats what they say right?, regardless of what that has to do with anything. On replacement therapy people can clean up their lives and kick if they want. Most people don't want to be completely clean forever, they are just buying time until opiates are legal or we're all dead, which will likely happen first moreso because of the illegality.

67%, lets get real.

Luckily its been a couple years since the original post and theres alot more data about this crap that people have gone through.

Let's not forget gooberman who had 7 of his patients DIE going through a rapid detox and countless others who went through absolute hell going through goobermans procedure.

The cats out of the bag look around on the net for plenty of stories of people who've done this.

Anyone who has any faith in what I say here on the board I call complete BULLSHIT on this procedure. Surely a doc who is making an absolute KILLING would PUSH to get studies done comparing this to the other treatments he badmouths instead of pushing a statistic that has only been published by him.

Do you REALLY think that getting put to sleep and then have withdrawals precipated and then waking up a while later and have to take that blocking junk that you're gonna feel better?!!?! do you really think precipated WD's are any better on the body? Anyone I've read about who goes through this felt as if they went through an absolute hell. At BEST it might take away some of the primary WD by the time you wake up.......if you can't take primary WD's there's no way in hell you're gonna take the secondary WD's.

Though I will say if you go through this procedure you'll have a several thousand dollar motivation to stay clean after you realized you just wasted it. That truly could be a good motivator but likely not enough that you won't relapse.

If there's a 67% success rate why haven't you had outside studies done?

[doctor diesel]

Err... so you don't recommend it then, tptptp??


Doc

[the morphine the better]

I think what you guys do is very sick and cruel. How dare you play on the hopes of someone who is addicted. Your lack of solid scientific data and your skewed 60% success rate is very misleading. This procedure costs several several thousands of dollars. It is pure fucking agony. It will not keep anybody clean for long. Sure it may deal with the acute symptoms of withdrawal, but after a few weeks of boredom and depression the likeliness of relapse is very high.

Weissmann method can also be dangerous.

I don't understand why opiophile is allowing this misinformation to be presented to members in need.

I might be wrong but I am assuming there is some sort of monetary gain for the site from this.

This is not the way to go people. If you need to stop opiates you can do it without dropping 10k.

Addiction Counseling, a solid support group, friends and family. Whatever it may be is crucial. Tapering down, the 1/3 method is very very humane. Replacement therapies work for some.

But there is no magical instant opiate cure.

Shame on opiophile..

I bet I get banned for this.

[80oranges]

It seems to me that this is a viable option for some people. The fact is that statistics really don't matter. If a patient that isn't sure if they really want to get clean, but knows its the best thing for them goes into this procedure because of the 67% success rate then it won't work.

The hard part isn't going through the procedure, its making up your mind that you want to get clean.

I've met loads of people that keep telling me they really want to get clean, but the fact is they're really just disappointed with what there addiction has done to there life. What they're really looking for is a way to manage there addiction.

Being successful at anything, especially something as hard as this requires full commitment.


A word of advice to Waisman, if you wanted to acheive a 100% success rate- have your potential patients talk to a psychiatrist and make sure that they are 100% committed to getting clean. If you think that the physical withdrawals are what keeps addicts coming back then you've never been an addict. Have it be a process, instead of a 4 day blitz.

[80oranges]

Does anyone know the overall success rate of addicts trying to kick opies for the first time?

Might be a stupid question, but i bet someone has read an estimate somewhere.

[tptptp]

Does anyone know the overall success rate of addicts trying to kick opies for the first time?

Might be a stupid question, but i bet someone has read an estimate somewhere.

Seen a few different numbers but I think like 2 or 2.5% i think that's for staying clean a year though....

By the way this anesthesia detox stuff has been around for a while now, one doc killed a bunch of people doing it (not the doctor here) but another. Never seen one person happy with the procedure or stay clean, many say its worse then regular withdrawal and the procedure i believe is like $10-15 thousand!

In theory it would be a viable option, but people just aren't responding well to it.

Psychiatrist or not there will never be a 100% success rate from any detoxification.

[nick]

You can get it out of your body/bloodstream,but getting it out of your head is a whole other gig.

For any one thinking of trying this,just send me the $$$$ and I'll hit you over the head with a hammer.......when you come around-you're on your own.

[pharmboy]

What I heard was that NO ONE who did this cold turkey and did not get Bup.

afterwards was still on the train a year on. The group that took the Bup. was

like 30% clean after a year. Cold Turkey is no way to do anything unless maybe

a sandwich. You should have a script for 100 to 200 - ten mg Valium and Cloniden

before you start this shit. And of course Bup. for later. . ..:jumping-s

[Chicago]

I went to the weiseman institute for rapis detox back in 99, I WASTED $10,000 ON THIS FUCKING SHITTY PROCEDURE.
1RST. CLAIRE LIED TO ME OVER THE PHONE SAYING YES WHEN U FLY IN WE WILL HAVE MORPHINE WAITING FOR U TO PICK UP AT WALGREENS, B.S. SOME VICODIN TRY.
2ND. THE DR. DID AND WAS LATE FOR THE PROCEDURE BY 5HRS AND LIED TO ME SAYING NO I WAS HEAR @ THIS TIME i WAS LIKE I SAY THE CLOCK B4 U PUT ME UNDER.
3RD.WHEN I GOT OUT OF THE HOSPITAL AND WENT BACK TO THE HOTEL FOR THE NXT 2DAYS I HAD ALL THE SAME W/D THAT I WOULD OF HAD B4 BESIDES THE ANXEITY.
I FLEW FROM CHICAGO TO CALI TO ORANGE SOMETHING HSPTL, FUCK IT I CAN GO ON AND ON, WORST THING I EVER DID, B4 ANY1 DOES THIS TALK TO ME:mad:

[bronyraur]

I think what you guys do is very sick and cruel. How dare you play on the hopes of someone who is addicted. Your lack of solid scientific data and your skewed 60% success rate is very misleading. This procedure costs several several thousands of dollars. It is pure fucking agony. It will not keep anybody clean for long. Sure it may deal with the acute symptoms of withdrawal, but after a few weeks of boredom and depression the likeliness of relapse is very high.

Weissmann method can also be dangerous.

I don't understand why opiophile is allowing this misinformation to be presented to members in need.

I might be wrong but I am assuming there is some sort of monetary gain for the site from this.

This is not the way to go people. If you need to stop opiates you can do it without dropping 10k.

Addiction Counseling, a solid support group, friends and family. Whatever it may be is crucial. Tapering down, the 1/3 method is very very humane. Replacement therapies work for some.

But there is no magical instant opiate cure.

Shame on opiophile..

I bet I get banned for this.

You ASSumed wrong. We don't get anything for this.

Shame on Opiophile for what? Showing people their OPTIONS to TRY and get clean?

I don't believe in rapid detox (any method of it), but people should be able to form their own opinion.

[nick]

Nothing in wrong in telling folks that they have options.It's up to them if they try it.

Personally,I'd rather try ibogaine.

[Black_Pony]

True. I just don't like being subjected to people's sales pitches. Nobody's gonna close me on a $10,000 procedure (or whatever it is) anyway, so I guess I have nothing to worry about.

I don't really know what I'm talking about, I better stop. I like to see 'professionals' helping out around here period. Although I don't think she lasted long.

Nothing in wrong in telling folks that they have options.It's up to them if they try it.

Personally,I'd rather try ibogaine.

[nick]

True. I just don't like being subjected to people's sales pitches. Nobody's gonna close me on a $10,000 procedure (or whatever it is) anyway, so I guess I have nothing to worry about.

I don't really know what I'm talking about, I better stop. I like to see 'professionals' helping out around here period. Although I don't think she lasted long.

Hell,I've NEVER seen her here.She must be busy "helping" folks.

[Tea Time]

Hell,I've NEVER seen her here.She must be busy "helping" folks.

Yeah she posted like 20 times. Probably stopped coming here when no one took the "bait."

She probably figured it's not worth her wasting her time here if none of us are willing to give her 10k for this bullshit "treatment"...

[Black_Pony]

Shes probably enjoying a candle lit dinner (after lighting the candles with burning $100 dollar bills). Caviar, japanese food, Dom Perignon champagne, etc...

Opionomo

[Tea Time]

Dom Perignon champagne, etc...

Dom - you gotta be kidding! She could probably afford the Cristal charging $10k a head!

[marhatch]

In general, do Major insurance policies cover this type of detox? I guess I could go through my policy, but I dont have much time and maybe somebody else out there has the same question

[Black_Pony]

Dom - you gotta be kidding! She could probably afford the Cristal charging $10k a head!

I know! Good Point, LOL! Good times in the anesthesia assisted detox business. Business is booming (or 'banging' if you will) (yuk yuk yuk). :D


In general, do Major insurance policies cover this type of detox? I guess I could go through my policy, but I dont have much time and maybe somebody else out there has the same question

I would bet my left testicle that insurance wont cover it. And my left one if my favorite, needless to say I have a strong impression the answer to that one is:

Negative. :(

[Bishop]

I'll chime in since I did have a friend that went through this process. He went through it for H and I remember him being pretty ticked that nothing got him well when he got home and realized that he was nowhere near through the worst of it after the initial rapid detox. He did however spend I think it was maybe a month or so clean and ended up making it through the worst. But as soon as the implant wore off and it was time for him to pick up the orally taken prescription he refrained from doing so and got back on the stuff. I have no idea where he is at these days but I can say that this program was unsuccesful in the long term. It did force him through the first month or so but that was it. I imagine the pain and suffering contributed to his immediate relapse. I can imagine I mean I remember back then when he did it it was being marketed as "no withdrawals" because you were supposedly knocked out during them and when you awoke were all better. And when he came home he was messed up pretty good still and could do nothing about it.

[nick]

$10,000 for one month clean well that's a great deal-excuse my sarcasm.

As I said earlier.......you can get it out of the body-getting out of your mind is something else.

[Bishop]

$10,000 for one month clean well that's a great deal-excuse my sarcasm.

As I said earlier.......you can get it out of the body-getting out of your mind is something else.

That's real, I have a feeling a few "Addictionologists" saw this new treatment method as a cash cow.

[tptptp]

67% is higher then anything ever offered for this disease. Regarding my English, it is my 2nd language and it allows me to help a very large number of people that DO want help.....

BUMP...haha if it were 67% everyone would be finding a way to do it. I bet you don't have a 67% abstinence rate for a month, let alone a year. It's absurd to think otherwise. As all the old junkys say the physical kick is the easy part, the mental longing afterwards is the hard part.

I don't doubt you can statistically and selectively manipulate your data though.

[tptptp]

I am here to answer any of your questions. Regarding the comparasson between The Waismann Method , Methadone and Buprinex....Let me try to make this clear. Methadone is a "replacement" drug , that is more addictive than most opiates out there. I see patients all the time that have been switched from a prescription opiate to Methadone, and now they have a way bigger problem coming off. Buprinex is half opiate and half antagonist, and it is addictive as well. We are detoxing patients more and more from it weekly. The pharmaceutical companies again have done a great job on marketing a drug, that is addictive with the promise to clean people. They kept it to a minimun supply in the first years, so there would be all this hype on being able to get it...And then they will release it in hopes ,patients will needed for long term and they can keep selling it.Regarding scientific research, there is alot ...Look into detoxification of opiates under anesthesia.....Listen, I don't extract my teeth without anesthesia, I cannot think of any medical instance when pain is present for a treatment that a doctor will not try to alleviate the patient with his best knowledge.Why are drug dependent the only patients that should suffer?

For the price you charge most people could afford 3 years of 'done or 3 years of bupe (with insurance) and likely taper over that time or decide to maintain & feel better than complete sobriety.

What are your 3 year success rates? I mean the real ones...I'd bet no better than normal. This does nothing for the mental aspect.

The truth is a long-term taper of a replacement drug or long-time therapy is what works best for many people.

[Levity]

My fucking God.
Can we please just all agree that this is nothing but a fucking scam?

There is no evidence - NOTHING publishing by a Weismann - or any of her cohorts in any respectable, peer-reviewed journal.

[Raz]

My fucking God.
Can we please just all agree that this is nothing but a fucking scam?

There is no evidence - NOTHING publishing by a Weismann - or any of her cohorts in any respectable, peer-reviewed journal.

CAN i sell my shit here too, "believe me, believe me I've got the best" Please dont try the rest......
Fuck how did this shitcunt, yeah shitcunt have the front to come on here selling her shit....Whats next advertising....This cunt is selling lies, its a business. Not no fuckin holy grail to get clean.
Do you think this cunt gives a fuck about anyone when puttin gas in her AMG.
Ask her how many relasped patients shes helped ????? Fuckin Dog, i hate cunts like these. They should be shot or given a major habit.....

[Tea Time]

Hey easy does it there Raz. I don't agree with the program either, but there really is no need to come on here and talk a whole bunch of shit about her. She likely will not see it anyway. And if she does, I'm sure you will not receive a response so it's kinda pointless.

She maintains that her program is very effective, however she is not able to give a fair objective opinion because it is HER treatment program. Chicago and others have said that the program was not effective and was not what was advertised. Chicago has nothing to gain in this scenario and Ms. Waismann very clearly does. In that situation, I'll believe Chicago. Take care,

TT

[Raz]

Hey easy does it there Raz. I don't agree with the program either, but there really is no need to come on here and talk a whole bunch of shit about her. She likely will not see it anyway. And if she does, I'm sure you will not receive a response so it's kinda pointless.

She maintains that her program is very effective, however she is not able to give a fair objective opinion because it is HER treatment program. Chicago and others have said that the program was not effective and was not what was advertised. Chicago has nothing to gain in this scenario and Ms. Waismann very clearly does. In that situation, I'll believe Chicago. Take care,

TT
Hola, didnt want to offend anyone, cept her. If you see the state of people when the come out of this shit, after how long?1,2,3 days and their cluck is over! Yeah right, course it is...Ha ha.Believe me, they are in bits and i mean bits.And if they've spent their last 10 grand coz they been falsely lead to believe this is the holy grail to get and stay clean.Man shes selling lies and i dont think she deserves to be here peddling her shit, just coz its "legal".
Read chicagos horror story about her and her ilk and youll see where i am comin from.The only people i lie to is ol bill and juries. Not someone who needs real help, not selling a 10grand fairy story to people who really need help. Yeah she cures your addiction in how long, come on get real.I just cant understand how shes here. I aint lookin for no brownie points or kudus, just giving my take on things. The truth is the truth and the truth will out. Plus i am cravin a chase like shit right now and battleing with myself real hard. Maybe she'll cure my addiction in a couple of days? Ha ,fuckin ha......Raz

[Raz]

This is a message in another blog....
Comment: Jeanne Katz says in her comments that she doesn't talk disrespectfully about other detox facilities and then proceeds to knock the Waisman Method on their own board. I think that the fact that Clare leaves those types of comments up and responds to them directly represent the drive that the whole Waisman staff have to answer all questions and criticisms and provide the absolute best care possible. I went through the Waisman Method and am doing great. It saved my life, family and reputation. I would never consider going through a procedure as serious as rapid detox in any outpatient facility. My father in law who had a heart attack several years ago just had 2 teeth removed and the extraction required minor surgery. The dentist originally scheduled the procedure for the outpatient surgical center but called the day before to say he had decided to do it in the intensive care unit of the local hospital. All of that because of concerns regarding 45 minutes of light anethesia. An outpatient surgery center is not the place to discover you have a heart problem or anesthesia allergy. Rapid detox is a serious procedure and is very stressful. I stayed in ICU for 28 hours after the detox and had ICU nurses constantly monitoring me. After the doctor is convinced that you're in the clear you go to Domus House for several more days. In my case 5 days. At Domus you are provided with all of your needs by a truely wonderful staff who are there for you 24 hours a day. At Domus you have a beautiful, soothing enviroment staffed by people who know how to comfort and encourage you. You don't want to spend you recovery days in a hotel room alone or with a family member who is trying to fathom what you're going through and the thought of riding or flying the first few days after detox is horrifying to me. You need those days in a specialized facilty to recover your strength and start healing your mind and body. You are provided a great deal of counseling at Domus and that contact and couneling continues after you return home. They will confer with your home physician and or therapist if you so desire to ensure continuity of treatment. You are also given a several phone numbers you can call anytime should you find yourself having any type of problem or fear of relapse. I'm not rich. I'm very much middle class, but you get what you pay for. Think of what one day in any ICU costs anymore. Let alone the cost of the detox , care at Domus and follw up care. When you consider the program in it's entirety it's well worth the cost. It's only slightly more expensive than a nice funeral. My health and success at kicking my dependency to presciption painkillers was worth seeking out the best and most knowlegeable people. I know how wonderful and thorough the Waisman Method is. They are the absolute best in my book at rapid detox and recovery. You can see all comments on this post here: http://www.rapiddetox.net


OH Look we have a middle class pill popper endorsing her method...Whoppee fuckin do.Have a look at these comments "its only slighty more expenseive than a nice funeral" Great sales pitch......Its that the best you can do?? Unfortunately wisechick these guys here, most of them are way outta your league in ze ol IQ dept.Dont tink we be seein too much of you,, bye bye now.........Ps Chicago's refund cheque is in the mail ,Right??How you have the front to be here is beyond me, but i guess you got more front than cows got cun...Raz

[Saint]

I know a guy who did the same rapid detox-method in London about 15 years ago. It cost his parents over ten thousand dollars at the time, or even more I think and he felt like shit for months after waking up and being released.
Needless to say, he relapsed. He is clean now but only because of a very, very slow methadone taper which took years. During those years he learned how to live without fixating on dope all the time, got a job, a house etc.
You can't change your life overnight and you certainly won't be cured physically in just 3 days. A waste of money if you ask me. And what about pain? Are you a junky when you need it for pain? I'd love to be free of methadone but I wonder how they will manage ones pain after that. I think it's nothing more than a money-making scheme with maybe a 15% succesrate, certainly not over 60%... But if you think it's for you and are loaded enough to pay for it then go ahead, you might be one of the lucky ones for whom it actually works out..

[Raz]

I wouldnt advise anyone wiv a serious habit to go down this route. Its an expensive Rd to a world of pain and imagine bein chucked out in the throws of serious WD, with a blocker inplant stitched under your skin. So you can't stop your cluck, no matter how much dope you shoot or smoke......
For hard core addicts this is a crock of shit.The 3 people i know all took gear straight away and carried on untill it got through the blocker, simply coz the were in such bad WD when leavin the detox clinic.Its an absolute lie to say this is a painfree detox.And i think this women knows absolutely nothin of the reality of heroin WD or meth and what it feels like physically to be in the throws of full blown WD. Or how she can justify puttin people out the door after a few days.
This is a yuppie detox for people with mild pill addictions.No way should any serious gear or meth user even consider this route. Give me the $15,000 and i will look after you in sunny spain around my pool and with a guarantee of a pain free detox. My credentials are;1st hand experience of detoxin in the sun within a 2/3 week period of taperin down with meth and downers.
I,ve done this many times when my smokin has got out of hand and it works......
Best wishes amigo's...Raz

[SpecialGuy69]

for 15k, the nurse better blow me every 6 hours and give handjobs for breakthrough pain



either way, your gettin jerked off

[Saint]

:-)

I'm a woman but I couldn't agree more

[Raz]

for 15k, the nurse better blow me every 6 hours and give handjobs for breakthrough pain



either way, your gettin jerked off

And she can kiss my arse.......

[CIIORNOTHING]

I think the most appropriate comment on this entire thread is "though this is not a recovery board". Boy is that evident by the replies. Its a board full of mostly folks in full blown active addiction, so Im not sure what she was hoping for. There is no method that works if the addict doesnt want it to work. The pharm companies are making a mint by replacing our DOC with another comfort drug. The biggest leap for an addict in my opinion is taking nothing at all. Walking through life without that crutch. Bupe and Methadone feed this need, its a crutch. Most addicts fear any solution that requires them to be completely clean, as is evidnet by all the respones here shooting down something most know nothing about and babbling about scientific proof, etc.

That I know of, there have been no scientific method studies that prove soaking poppy pods in water will get you high, but we all know it will dont we. :)

ps- And Im not promoting UROD or anesthesia assited detox, Im just saying maybe we shouldnt be so quick to shoot down something we dont really know about and do it in such a disrespectful manner.

[GoddessofRATs]

Yup. If it's not in your heart to quit your not going to be successful. You have to WANT to WANT it. That's really the main thing ya know. If your forced into it it's most likely not going to work because you didn't chose to do this.

And the drug companies are making a lot of money like you said. I bet it's astronomical.

GOR

[CIIORNOTHING]

Yup. If it's not in your heart to quit your not going to be successful. You have to WANT to WANT it. That's really the main thing ya know. If your forced into it it's most likely not going to work because you didn't chose to do this.

And the drug companies are making a lot of money like you said. I bet it's astronomical.

GOR


If you think about it, how many peopel do you know on bupe or sub or done? Then think about how many people you know who taperd off bupe or sub or done and now live clean. I dont know a single one. I personally think its the biggest failure and scam in medicine today. Its why I continue using my DOC because those drugs are just as bad. (the exception being Heroin of course).

[eerased]

Sometimes this worries me. I dont know one single opy addict that has/is clean and living a "normal" life. Im not even sure it's possible?? Anyone??

[pharmboy]

I for one do NOTknow one person who has successfully quit any kind of opiates after being addicted.

It's harder than quitting smoking x 10.

************************************************** *********************************************

[GoddessofRATs]

I only know 1 person who ever got clean and stayed clean. She told me she 'Found god' She was my dealers hubby/boyfriend, the one who died of aids and she had two kids with him (they are negative). After he died, she went clean, married and last i heard is living a normal, clean life up in seattle. But, she is the only one i know. And i don't even talk to her, i just get a xmas card with the kids on it every year and an occasional message on my Myspace page.

But, i know there are success stories out there, i just don't know any personally.

GOR

[CIIORNOTHING]

For me, I see people who replace thier addiction to drugs or alcohol by becoming addicted to religion or AA. I knew a guy I worked with who had been sober 25 years, and he still went to AA almost every single day. He was absolutely obsessed with AA. Its all he talked about and all he knew. I think id almost be an alcoholic. He just replaced one obscession with another.

There are times in my life that I have stopped drugs and drinking only to start gambling a lot, or using steroids and getting addicted to working out. Its just how the addictive mind works I guess...going from one obscession to the other. Its been my whole life.

[GoddessofRATs]

Yea, I've been the same way in my past. When i quit Meth i turned to booze. And i never liked booze but it was the only thing i could get that helped my depression etc. Eventually i stopped the drinking and i was sober for a while than i had an infected tooth and got scripted Vicodin 10's and that's all i cared about was getting Vicodin. And that went on for a few years and than to Tramadol and to now.

But, yea I've done the replacing thing, a lot of people do. See that's the part of the addict that has to be cured, it's just not the chemical they put in their body, i guess the inside has to be cured, the depression, the anxiety all that we try to get away with pills and drugs.

I know why i turned to pills and drugs, the main thing was depression. I have Chronic pain now but it's the depression i am always running from, running running running. And if i quit today I'm sure I'd turn to something else.

GOR

[Levity]

I for one do NOTknow one person who has successfully quit any kind of opiates after being addicted.

It's harder than quitting smoking x 10.

************************************************** *********************************************

My father was addicted to opiates for 15 years - mainly heroin, but also pills (think drugstore cowboy) - and has been clean for 22 years.

Hell, he can even talk Loratab/Vicodin 7.5s for his back without slipping back into addiction.

It's possible to get and stay clean... But its hard.

[GoddessofRATs]

How long have you been clean Levity? I'm just curious.

GOR

[Raz]

I think the most appropriate comment on this entire thread is "though this is not a recovery board". Boy is that evident by the replies. Its a board full of mostly folks in full blown active addiction, so Im not sure what she was hoping for. There is no method that works if the addict doesnt want it to work. The pharm companies are making a mint by replacing our DOC with another comfort drug. The biggest leap for an addict in my opinion is taking nothing at all. Walking through life without that crutch. Bupe and Methadone feed this need, its a crutch. Most addicts fear any solution that requires them to be completely clean, as is evidnet by all the respones here shooting down something most know nothing about and babbling about scientific proof, etc.

That I know of, there have been no scientific method studies that prove soaking poppy pods in water will get you high, but we all know it will dont we. :)

ps- And Im not promoting UROD or anesthesia assited detox, Im just saying maybe we shouldnt be so quick to shoot down something we dont really know about and do it in such a disrespectful manner.
Hola, just have to comment on your post. I know 3 people who have done this.And they were people with major habits. After comin around from the anesthesia they were in full blown WD with a blocker implant.So no matter what opi they consumed...nothing, still cluckin.
I could go on about this, but its a crock of shit.Its just preyin on vunerable people, sellin them the false holy grail re their addiction. How would you feel if your family spent $15 k on this, only to find out they had been conned.
I am not sayin this hasnt or cant work( if you want to go through the whole WD and live with an implant inside you for the rest of your lifel), then it will work.Guaranteed.
But they dont tell you that when addmitted first off. The implant would cost you apprx $800 every 3 mths and also your consultation fee. And they always charge.So maybe they are talkin fees that work out $80-100 per week and for as long as you feel the need for the implant. So you could end up exchanging one crutch for another. I am sure there are suceess stories out there, but i do not know anyone who sucessfully kicked herion this way.
I firmly believe this should be touted as something for a mild pill addiction.Not a holy grail for a serious heroin habit, who they are tryin to target as clients.Its just a business, not no cure...
Just my two cents worth.....be cool Raz.

[tptptp]

I think the most appropriate comment on this entire thread is "though this is not a recovery board". Boy is that evident by the replies. Its a board full of mostly folks in full blown active addiction, so Im not sure what she was hoping for. There is no method that works if the addict doesnt want it to work. The pharm companies are making a mint by replacing our DOC with another comfort drug. The biggest leap for an addict in my opinion is taking nothing at all. Walking through life without that crutch. Bupe and Methadone feed this need, its a crutch. Most addicts fear any solution that requires them to be completely clean, as is evidnet by all the respones here shooting down something most know nothing about and babbling about scientific proof, etc.

That I know of, there have been no scientific method studies that prove soaking poppy pods in water will get you high, but we all know it will dont we. :)

ps- And Im not promoting UROD or anesthesia assited detox, Im just saying maybe we shouldnt be so quick to shoot down something we dont really know about and do it in such a disrespectful manner.

Plenty of people here DO know what they're talking about. Anything that claims 67% of its patients stay clean for a year from opiates and that the procedure gets them through the worst of WD (which doesn't ever even seem true) and to charge 10-$15,000 with these wonderful statistics to make addicts think that there must be something special about this if 67% stay clean for a year, I don't have to endure the pain of WD, & it's performed by doctors and for the cost maybe it's true. You're right about not needing the studies because I don't need them to know that there's no 67% success rate for one year for any method and that almost everyone who goes through it (a few of which are here) says the WD is just as bad if not worse than usual & I don't need the study to know $10,000-$15,000 to do basically nothing for someone other than give them false hope, steal their money, & then pain them through a world of hurt crushing their dream to get clean and making them feel guilty as hell for relapsing and guilty/sad/hurt that they're broke now too (often their family chipped in too) is a bad bad thing.

If you think it's still good go ahead and promote it all day and I'll shoot it down all day. You mention people that know little about it, but in fact the only people who have good things to say about it are those who haven't been through it or known someone who has.

The people shooting it down are ones that have enough brain cells to nkow that they offer false promises and that it costs a fortune to do. Or they have tried it or know someone who has and that it faield miserably. If it really did what it claimed no one would shoot it down because they want to stay on bupe opr 'done for the rest of their life, that's just ridiculous.

If this did what it promised I'd be the first to advertise it everywhere for thoise who wanted to get clean and could afford it. I bash it because I see many people beiong deceived and robbed & people coming along who do know nothing about it ( ;) ) and saying well yeah that sounds good leading more people into giving it a go.

[Raz]

Plenty of people here DO know what they're talking about. Anything that claims 67% of its patients stay clean for a year from opiates and that the procedure gets them through the worst of WD (which doesn't ever even seem true) and to charge 10-$15,000 with these wonderful statistics to make addicts think that there must be something special about this if 67% stay clean for a year, I don't have to endure the pain of WD, & it's performed by doctors and for the cost maybe it's true. You're right about not needing the studies because I don't need them to know that there's no 67% success rate for one year for any method and that almost everyone who goes through it (a few of which are here) says the WD is just as bad if not worse than usual & I don't need the study to know $10,000-$15,000 to do basically nothing for someone other than give them false hope, steal their money, & then pain them through a world of hurt crushing their dream to get clean and making them feel guilty as hell for relapsing and guilty/sad/hurt that they're broke now too (often their family chipped in too) is a bad bad thing.

If you think it's still good go ahead and promote it all day and I'll shoot it down all day. You mention people that know little about it, but in fact the only people who have good things to say about it are those who haven't been through it or known someone who has.

The people shooting it down are ones that have enough brain cells to nkow that they offer false promises and that it costs a fortune to do. Or they have tried it or know someone who has and that it faield miserably. If it really did what it claimed no one would shoot it down because they want to stay on bupe opr 'done for the rest of their life, that's just ridiculous.

If this did what it promised I'd be the first to advertise it everywhere for thoise who wanted to get clean and could afford it. I bash it because I see many people beiong deceived and robbed & people coming along who do know nothing about it ( ;) ) and saying well yeah that sounds good leading more people into giving it a go.
TP ,spot on and amen to that.Trust me Bro , you wake up in full blown WD and then if your weak, they prey on your emotional rawness.And if they're are tellin ya, well we av have this option etc etc and if your nieve enough to sign up for more shit thats more $ down the pan......Raz ah, nuff said man...

[limitless_euphoria]

I for one do NOTknow one person who has successfully quit any kind of opiates after being addicted.

It's harder than quitting smoking x 10.

************************************************** *********************************************

I'd dare say you're right. For me, I've been able to successfully stop using cigs, coke and benzos just by making the decision to cease and desist. Opies are the only thing I can say that I've tried to quit, but, kind of like The Godfather, "just when I thought I was out—you pulled me back in!"

If it's not recreation it's pain; if it's not pain it's depression; if it's none of the above it's boredom and dissatisfaction with life. I've been clean for months on end—but it seems, sooner or later, something inevitably happens and back I go again!

And I've never been on methadone however I did try bupe on two separate occasions. I found I was a good boy for the first few weeks and then I'd decide to switch back and forth from bupe to full agonists (as it was so easy). Eventually it became too much of a complication to participate in the bupe program I was in and I had stockpiled a buttload of 8 mg sub pills (over 100+ at one point) but those days are long gone.

If one REALLY, TRULY wants to quit AND FOR GOOD perhaps one can utilize something like bupe to taper (zenpunk's bupe detox diary was a great example) but, as much as the truth hurts, abstinence is the way. I'm not preaching 12-stepping at all, I'm just admitting to what, deep down, I believe is true.

[CIIORNOTHING]

Plenty of people here DO know what they're talking about. Anything that claims 67% of its patients stay clean for a year from opiates and that the procedure gets them through the worst of WD (which doesn't ever even seem true) and to charge 10-$15,000 with these wonderful statistics to make addicts think that there must be something special about this if 67% stay clean for a year, I don't have to endure the pain of WD, & it's performed by doctors and for the cost maybe it's true. You're right about not needing the studies because I don't need them to know that there's no 67% success rate for one year for any method and that almost everyone who goes through it (a few of which are here) says the WD is just as bad if not worse than usual & I don't need the study to know $10,000-$15,000 to do basically nothing for someone other than give them false hope, steal their money, & then pain them through a world of hurt crushing their dream to get clean and making them feel guilty as hell for relapsing and guilty/sad/hurt that they're broke now too (often their family chipped in too) is a bad bad thing.

If you think it's still good go ahead and promote it all day and I'll shoot it down all day. You mention people that know little about it, but in fact the only people who have good things to say about it are those who haven't been through it or known someone who has.

The people shooting it down are ones that have enough brain cells to nkow that they offer false promises and that it costs a fortune to do. Or they have tried it or know someone who has and that it faield miserably. If it really did what it claimed no one would shoot it down because they want to stay on bupe opr 'done for the rest of their life, that's just ridiculous.

If this did what it promised I'd be the first to advertise it everywhere for thoise who wanted to get clean and could afford it. I bash it because I see many people beiong deceived and robbed & people coming along who do know nothing about it ( ;) ) and saying well yeah that sounds good leading more people into giving it a go.

I just dont like the ideo of an actively using addict shooting down a fucking thing to someone who wants to get clean. This site is full of full blown addicts so what she hoped to accomplish with that post I dont know. We all now those of us in active addiction dont want to hear the truth, like Limitless Eurphoria rightly said, whether you do it through UROD or AA or whatever, the final result must be abstinence. That scares the hell out of most of us. It does me. But Im not going to be a loud mouth asshole to others who want to get clean, no matter what I think of thier methods, becuase its not my life or my money.

People wanting to get clean should be encouraged at all costs. Leave your personal shit out of it. If you dont want to get clean fine, if 10K seems outrageous to you, fine, but dont shit on people who think differently. Thats my point.

So keep shooting shit down all you want bro. All you are doing is being part of someones problem, rather than be supportive.

Ive lost too many freinds to this shit. If I see someone wanting to get off, and they have the money to try shit like this, Im all for it. And who is anyone to say differently, its not your fucking money is it? I have known H addicts that are lawyers and other professional who to them, 10K is chump change. To be honest, I make a good living. Id drop 10K in a second if I thought it would get me off this shit. But I can be honest and say Im not ready to do that.


Again, I just dont see what she hoped to accomplish posting recovery stuff here. Recovery talk here is like trying to tell the jewish Hitler was really an alright guy.

[Raz]

If 10 large is small change go for it, wont bother dem either way.

[eerased]

I for one would not encourage anyone money or not to spend 15,000$ on a scam. I also wouldnt discourage ppl from getting clean but it's like anything else. If your going to buy a cd player thats 120$ but it is shit I would hope someone would let you know not to waist your fucking money!

Not one positive post on the URD should be something nobody knows anybody who has done it successfully. The fact that ppl are getting loans and spending there saving on something that most likely doesnt work is shit. I think we should let anyone and everyone we know that is thinking of going this route that it's a scam!

And if they needed to hear it from someone who has done it just look at Chicago's thread!

[CIIORNOTHING]

I for one would not encourage anyone money or not to spend 15,000$ on a scam. I also wouldnt discourage ppl from getting clean but it's like anything else. If your going to buy a cd player thats 120$ but it is shit I would hope someone would let you know not to waist your fucking money!

Not one positive post on the URD should be something nobody knows anybody who has done it successfully. The fact that ppl are getting loans and spending there saving on something that most likely doesnt work is shit. I think we should let anyone and everyone we know that is thinking of going this route that it's a scam!

And if they needed to hear it from someone who has done it just look at Chicago's thread!


I hear you man. But I hear all these people "shooting" down methods, but I sure dont hear anyone ponying up any advice on what DOES work.

And just my opinion, if Chicago has been through it, and it didnt work for him, lets not write the whole fucking thing off becuase of one person.

Look, I said earlier Im not supporting it. I just dont think its right for people with no real or personal experience with something to be knocking it, and to be doing it so disrespectuflly to the people who are offering it. Chicago is a different story. He did it apparently. Let him knock it. But my question to Chicago would be, what DO you recommend then?

Like I said, Ive lost alot of freinds to this shit. We all know you dont see many 50-60 year old H or opiate addicts walking around. There is a good reason for that.....we dont usually last that long. Thats why if someone is looking for info or seeking treatment, I be damned if I would be hitting them with a barrage of reasons why the shit doesnt work. Nobody appointed me or anyone else the judge or God of rehab methods. Let someone do the research on thier own and figure it out for themselves. Its not up to me or any of you to slam a method and try to save the fucking world, and certainly not to do it with such a smart ass tone and in a disrespectful way.

I know alot of good people who run clinics and treatment centers. And yes, they make money. But alot of times these are caring decent people. Not all, but some are moeny hungry assholes. Again, its not my job in life to say who is and who isnt, nor is it any of yours unless you know the people and their methods from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Just my two cents. I dont like know it alls and I dont like disprectful people.

[eerased]

I hear you man. But I hear all these people "shooting" down methods, but I sure dont hear anyone ponying up any advice on what DOES work.

And just my opinion, if Chicago has been through it, and it didnt work for him, lets not write the whole fucking thing off becuase of one person.

Look, I said earlier Im not supporting it. I just dont think its right for people with no real or personal experience with something to be knocking it, and to be doing it so disrespectuflly to the people who are offering it. Chicago is a different story. He did it apparently. Let him knock it. But my question to Chicago would be, what DO you recommend then?

Like I said, Ive lost alot of freinds to this shit. We all know you dont see many 50-60 year old H or opiate addicts walking around. There is a good reason for that.....we dont usually last that long. Thats why if someone is looking for info or seeking treatment, I be damned if I would be hitting them with a barrage of reasons why the shit doesnt work. Nobody appointed me or anyone else the judge or God of rehab methods. Let someone do the research on thier own and figure it out for themselves. Its not up to me or any of you to slam a method and try to save the fucking world, and certainly not to do it with such a smart ass tone and in a disrespectful way.

I know alot of good people who run clinics and treatment centers. And yes, they make money. But alot of times these are caring decent people. Not all, but some are moeny hungry assholes. Again, its not my job in life to say who is and who isnt, nor is it any of yours unless you know the people and their methods from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Just my two cents. I dont like know it alls and I dont like disprectful people.

I better understand what you are saying after this post. I agree in the point that ppl need to do the research on there own. This should not be the ONLY place you research when making a decision but this is one place you can see what other opinions are. I also would hope if I was "joe" looking for options for a rehab program that I would come across this and not just come across what they salesman's website says.
I guess I'm agreeing and not agreeing if that makes sense. I still think it's a ripoff but I would hope any intelligent person would look to more than just this thread. Also I understand why the posts twards the clinic are so disrespectful because I truely believe it's a scam.

In any event we all have the right to speak are mind it keeps good healthy interacting..

I didnt mean to slam your post I just didnt understand what you were saying but after that post I do.. Thanks for takin the time:)

[CIIORNOTHING]

Its all good my friend.

Actaully, Im doing in this thread exactly what I dislike. Im letting my personal experience in life shape my thoughts and words as if they are the only right way, as if I know it all. I hate that shit. The world is a big place and what I know or what you know may be totally opposite of what someone on the other side of the world experiences.

I recently lost a close frined to OD and we begged him for years and years to get some sort of help. He just wouldnt do it. I guess thats why Im letting that shape my emotion the way it is.

I just would hope if someone is thinking of some way to get off this shit, that they wouldnt come into contact with something or someone who would shoot the idea down, thats all.

And one thing that totally confuses me. Is why would the board set up a forum for this method, and then have admins come in and shoot it all to shit. I dont get that at all.....

[robojunkie]

I think it might be a good idea to remove the "this forum moderated by a health professional" tag, as 1) its not moderated by her anymore and especially 2) she sure as hell ain't no health professional or apparently anything "professional". I also undeleted a couple of old comments that called this out way way back.

[eerased]

Good deal allot of what you said down there is how I feel in the first paragraph. I do it allot too.

Also I wanted to say sorry to hear about your friend. It always sucks to hear about a fatal od:(Its all good my friend.

Actaully, Im doing in this thread exactly what I dislike. Im letting my personal experience in life shape my thoughts and words as if they are the only right way, as if I know it all. I hate that shit. The world is a big place and what I know or what you know may be totally opposite of what someone on the other side of the world experiences.

I recently lost a close frined to OD and we begged him for years and years to get some sort of help. He just wouldnt do it. I guess thats why Im letting that shape my emotion the way it is.

I just would hope if someone is thinking of some way to get off this shit, that they wouldnt come into contact with something or someone who would shoot the idea down, thats all.

And one thing that totally confuses me. Is why would the board set up a forum for this method, and then have admins come in and shoot it all to shit. I dont get that at all.....

[Levity]

I think it might be a good idea to remove the "this forum moderated by a health professional" tag, as 1) its not moderated by her anymore and especially 2) she sure as hell ain't no health professional or apparently anything "professional". I also undeleted a couple of old comments that called this out way way back.

Good call...
Maybe we can make it read, "This forum was once monitored by a fake know-nothing 'doctor' with a degree from some third world medical school who lacks publication in even the least respectible of medical journals."

You know, just an idea.

[robojunkie]

And one thing that totally confuses me. Is why would the board set up a forum for this method, and then have admins come in and shoot it all to shit. I dont get that at all.....

No confusion, the site owner and original admin billi decided when or shortly after the site went up to include that as a forum. I don't know the specifics of how this came about, but I'm going to imagine the so-called "Waissman Method" people troll the web for drug related sites, and in this case probably shot a PM over to billi filled with all kinds of bullshit and uncitable citations. Ya know the thing that tends to irritate me the most about this URD thing, isn't so much the URD itself, its these fucking self-righteous and pompous assholes that have the unmitigated gall to do the same fucking thing others have done for years, either experimentally or open to the public (ie for profit) and make up some stupid name "domus" for their hotel and claim its "superior" and "different" and "innovative" blah blah blah. Bunch of used car salesman words...

Anyway, as you probably know, billi hasn't been admin for nearly a year now, first stepping down for flipside to take over, and then when she couldn't do it anymore, it was duckfeet, bronyraur and tp. So, simple answer, one admin started the forum and thread years ago, a different admin is calling it out now. Pretty straightforward. And, besides, this not being a recovery board, why would we continue to have and support some particular detox method, (or at least give it the "imprimatuer" of our support by letting her mod and have a forum)? I don't know either, so she and it are pretty much gone.

BTW, waismann lady, if you are trolling still, for one whose "product" depends heavily on your advertising and word of mouth, don't you think its basic advertising strategy when selling a "medical" procedure, to come off as well spoken, erudite and full of that fatherly Marcus Wellsby MD kinda vibe, and not the one where the grammar and spelling are atrocious (granted, english isn't your first language, so why not have someone for whom it is their first language do this stuff?)? I sure do, regardless of the reason for the poor grammar and sentence structure, and, worst of all the analogies and metaphors. Enjoy your guilt-free halcion days living off the savings of desperate junkies/families, you grifting con.

Good call...
Maybe we can make it read, "This forum was once monitored by a fake know-nothing 'doctor' with a degree from some third world medical school who lacks publication in even the least respectible of medical journals."

You know, just an idea.

I like it. Hell they couldn't get published in the enquirer. Maybe weekly world news, though, if bat boy needs a quick clean up.

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

So can't we all take a poll or something and agreed that at the very least -this should be blended into another sub-form in recovery (or whatever)

Note of interest -the other day I was searching the web for an estimate on the amount of opiate addicted/dependent people in the US-( I found alcoholics est.18-20 million) But could not come up with anything for opiates. HOWEVER EVERY THIRD LISTING WAS FOR SOME FORM OF URD, with Wussman, the leader

[CIIORNOTHING]

OH I get it know. It was the old admins fault. Cool.

IMHO, Id just get rid of recovery shit like this if the admins and users on this board are going to come into the forums and blast it.

Id bet AA and most other methods would get the same responses. "that shit dont work, yada yada yada".

Like I said, if I were trying for recovery, this would be the last place Id come ;)

[Levity]

OH I get it know. It was the old admins fault. Cool.

IMHO, Id just get rid of recovery shit like this if the admins and users on this board are going to come into the forums and blast it.

Id bet AA and most other methods would get the same responses. "that shit dont work, yada yada yada".

Like I said, if I were trying for recovery, this would be the last place Id come ;)

AA/NA are actually about 20% effective, which, in the world of substance abuse is insanely great. (AA runs a lil higher, screwing the numbers, but they're good programs if you do want help getting clean)

[Raz]

Ok, so the wise chick has left the building....Anyone know why she left, or was it because she got no punters?
Re the gettin clean and my bashing her method, its because i know from 3 people who tried that method and it was shit.Just brought you into a state of WD without the recousre of getting well physically.The only recourse you had was, to wait untill your symptons had passed, be it days or weeks, you were fucked coz of the blocker implant.Or fix huge amounts untill you eventually got passed the blocker.....
This bitch is just preyin on nievity.Unlucky for her, she didnt find it here....
Why is this wisechick method comin up on so many search engines for detox, anyone in the know? Raz

[southernbelle]

Sorry to bring back this thing from the dead, but I thought y'all would want to know she's got an article in the new american Vogue. I didn't read the whole thing (mainly cause it pissed me off), but I did skim it to make sure the bitch didn't mention opio. She didn't, but she makes it seem like it's the best thing on earth for what she calls "accidental addicts". I don't know if it's in the overseas Vogues (Raz, maybe the wife could go get a copy?) or not, but it's here in ours.

[Levity]

Sorry to bring back this thing from the dead, but I thought y'all would want to know she's got an article in the new american Vogue. I didn't read the whole thing (mainly cause it pissed me off), but I did skim it to make sure the bitch didn't mention opio. She didn't, but she makes it seem like it's the best thing on earth for what she calls "accidental addicts". I don't know if it's in the overseas Vogues (Raz, maybe the wife could go get a copy?) or not, but it's here in ours.

The phrase "accidental addicts" never appears in any scientific literature about drug abuse.
I'm pretty sure Vogue is the most prestigeous thing in which she's ever been published.

I want to kick this bitch in the cunt.

[Black_Pony]

LOL!

Yup, shes a predator. We're the prey.

The phrase "accidental addicts" never appears in any scientific literature about drug abuse.
I'm pretty sure Vogue is the most prestigeous thing in which she's ever been published.

I want to kick this bitch in the cunt.

[jopiated]

This is real fucked up. I had been talking to this doctor for a while, on and off, which I thought was weird that he was so willing to just give me his cell phone # and answer my calls any time. My dumb ass was starting to think I had found "The One", if ya know what I mean. Then we were talking one day, which we often did, he actually admitted that he was an addict himself and we would just mainly talk about Drugs and maintenance and that sort of thing, low and behold one night he brought up URD and I was like WHOA, that shit is very contraversial, I made it very clear that I was not buying, and I had even heard of people dying from it. It seemed to get swept under the rug as fast as it came up, so I didn't ever give it a second thought until now but Mr. Nice Dr. Man hadn't answered any calls from me since this conversation. Now I know why!! Please take it from me and if you really wanna kick just taper down, way down, and go through a few days or weeks of being uncomfortable. Why rush it anyway? That's what I didn't understand about it, what is the rush, why does it have to be ultra rapid. IT IS A SCAM! For that kind of money you can go to a real Inpatient facility for months and get counseling and be comfortable, why rush it? WHY? I would go to the Betty Ford clinic r some shit first, fuck dat.

[Raz]

What is needed here is some medical body expose this shitbag for what she is.OR some of the knowledgeable guys here at opi write to Vogue and expose her for what she is......
Fuckin fashion mag, typical aint it...A fuckin drug doctor in a fashoin mag says it fuckin all.....

I tell ya, if this bitch conned me or mine i would be lookin for payback, BIG TIME.And not legal payback..I bet she gets a shitload of nieve suckers wiv money to burn bcoz of this article..

How is this allowed to go on? At least when you score dope you get something in return.This bitch is selling a fuckin nightmare and gettin away wiv it...Theres something very wrong here...

I am even gonna try and find this mag over here to show my wife.What a fucked up world we live in...
I cant belive this shit cunt is gettin validated!!!!!

[Suboxstitute]

Levity said.. and I quote.....


The phrase "accidental addicts" never appears in any scientific literature about drug abuse.
I'm pretty sure Vogue is the most prestigeous thing in which she's ever been published.



"Accidental addict"... that's funny in a sickening kind of way.

You DO cross a line from physical dependence and there are already very clear and specific scientific definitions of what those lines are. We all know them - it's physical but then it becomes behaviorial - desperate for your DOC no matter what the consequence to job, family, money... supplemeting scripts by less than legit means, lying to loved ones and others (to oneself - that is a biggie!), spending money ya don't have. Anyway, that's old news to us opiphiles. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

BUT FRICKEN VOGUE MAGAINE ???? What, we're gonna use Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and some "average" 22 year olds with the 22 inch waist and 38" boobs (fake no doubt) as our models for the "accidental addict".

What a fuckin stupid phrase. From my view ... it trivializes everything I've been through trying to get clean. And a LOT of 20 and 30 somethings read that rag of a magazine.

They will think :Oh, I can party for a few years, take whatever pills and shit that come my way, and just go for a quick weekend "cleanout" detoz while I'm just resting like Sleeping Beauty and all will be back to normal on Monday. Start over again, and repeat. And repeat. And repeat. Waisman doesn't give a shit.

[jacky]

this website welcomes any help from health proffesionals, so we tried basically to give each type of treatment its own forum.

personally I have been suspicious of this method before, when it first came out, and from my experiences with naltrexone maintenance being so negative, and not blocking dope after all, just blocking love and life, in my experience naltrexone and forced withdrawl is not an answer.
the only thing naltrexone is good for in my book is reversing an overdose, or the best use, used in microgram amounts to potentiate standard opiates.

I hate to see things descend into a bunch of fighting, and I do not want to see health proffesionals get run off with offensive attitudes, but maybe there is a reason for the strong feelings.

its strange, there is hardly anyone reporting about junkies using ibogaine on this board, and forced withdrawl is so damn boring and dangerous when compared to using iboga treatment.

I think we should leave this forum up, so that people looking for information on getting this treatment might get more of a picture of what is going on in the treatment industry, the "recovery gulag" in which there are many controversial and bogus claims.
it can hurt the websites image overall if it just has a transgressive population, we need health proffesionals experience here, and if possible, we need to give voice to the people that stand up against some aggressive treatment options, that are often so expensive.
I doubt the general opiophile member population would be pulled into this type of treatment from looking at its advertisements here.

more personal experience is needed on this subject. I am sure that there are people out there that have benefitted from this treatment.
but, personally I dont know any, my freind that did this treatment years ago said that he woke up sick as hell, had to kick for 2 weeks, and scolded the doctors regarding the timeline they set him up at, he usually takes at least 3 weeks to kick dope at this point, his body wracked with sickness from hepatitis infections. did he really think that doing forced withdrawl would leave him feeling better faster? I dont think so, his mommy was rich, and she paid hundreds of thousands of dollars getting him out of trouble over the years.
he was sick for the standard amount of time, no forced withdrawl can fix the years of damage that hardcore dope running can do. you still have healing to do, healing that people dont have to deal with that have small/short habits.
a person that has only used for 9 months, doing small amounts, and not using IV, might benefit from this method, but for me, at the point that I fit this description years ago, I only needed some valium to kick, and I felt better after 5 days. a few years later kicking was a month long affair...

I am not trying to tell people how to react here,
but I think that its better that we dont descend into fighting between members, it cheapens the websites image, and we are not trying to censor anything at this website, nor run people off with majority rules type of force.
sometimes I know it comes to a point where swearing and such is the breaking point, you dont care anymore, and need to let the other person know that their actions are not appreciated, but hopefully this type of reaction wont suspend conversation and learning into the various subjects.

I think a lifelong habit is something that a very few individuals have the discipline to balance healthily.
of course the CP patients/sufferers dont really have a choice, and many of them seem to be mostly positively enhanced by their opaite use....
then there are the trainwreck users, that are on their own road, that many have travelled. some get sick and drop out, and it seems about 15% of them die, and the rest get sick of the game and quit.
and then there are the users that use out of philosophical or religious pursuit.
I suggest using oral opiates if you are going to maintain on opiates for long term, probably the most healthy substance to consume long term is opium/codeine/morphine....some of the synthetics seem to create more tolerance. with opium some find that they can maintain on the same dose effectively for years at a time. there is some amazing/mystical synergy with the opium alkaloids.
kratom is interesting, as is the other natural/organic opioids found in many plants...we are just scraping then tip of the iceberg when it comes to investigating this novel and amazing phenomenon occuring.
that said, maybe its a good thing that there are people that can get you clean in a hurry, so you dont have to miss as much materialism as possible, so the courts can process you quicker, so your family can sweep it under the rug quicker, so you can cheat yourself quicker etc etc.
I will leave it do the Doctors to debate if forced withdrawl has a place in good medicine, but most of all I want to hear the addicted users experiences with the treatment, that is the most telling in my opinion. some people poo poo the personal experience, but for me, psychonaughtical endeavors, and trying to understand the body and mind, personal experience is the wellspring of learning.

[Raz]

I guess i have been one of the most vocal in condemning this rapid detox method...Many swear words have been used in my typing to emphasize my belief that this is nothing more than a fraud...
Anyone thinking of having this type of treatment,please read chicago's account of what happened when he had it....

He paid $10,000 for a nightmare withdrawal that didnt even cure his addiction...He was so ill when he left the hotel,that he immiedately scored and was back into his addiction within minutes...His $10,000 was wasted....I woulda got him clean within a fortnight with the right meds with the minimum discomfort.

I dont want to rehash my point of view, but why hasnt Ms wisemann come back and defended herself with medical facts and glowin testimony from any hard core iv addicts....??
Because there are none..

This method only suits pill poppin rich kids, whose mummy or daddy is gonna pay for it...And i guess the higher up the corporate ladder you are the better treatment you'll get from ol wisechick...Say your collegues kids can be suckered into the treatment as well,to rid them of their little pill addiction....
Once again i will just say my honest opinion is this is a fraud, doesnt do what it says on the label...

[eerased]

I guess i have been one of the most vocal in condemning this rapid detox method...Many swear words have been used in my typing to emphasize my belief that this is nothing more than a fraud...
Anyone thinking of having this type of treatment,please read chicago's account of what happened when he had it....

He paid $10,000 for a nightmare withdrawal that didnt even cure his addiction...He was so ill when he left the hotel,that he immiedately scored and was back into his addiction within minutes...His $10,000 was wasted....I woulda got him clean within a fortnight with the right meds with the minimum discomfort.

I dont want to rehash my point of view, but why hasnt Ms wisemann come back and defended herself with medical facts and glowin testimony from any hard core iv addicts....??
Because there are none..

This method only suits pill poppin rich kids, whose mummy or daddy is gonna pay for it...And i guess the higher up the corporate ladder you are the better treatment you'll get from ol wisechick...Say your collegues kids can be suckered into the treatment as well,to rid them of their little pill addiction....
Once again i will just say my honest opinion is this is a fraud, doesnt do what it says on the label...

Raz, I'm with you brother. This thread and the fact that we are not hearing from ppl it's helped is true. There are none. I've heard many more stories just like Chicagos. To be honest if I was Clair and I believed that matter of factly as she does I would be here SCREAMING it's success stories. It's a scam and so are they!

[freedomclub]

I would be here SCREAMING it's success stories. It's a scam and so are they!


Exactly there should be a a number of success stories just waiting to tell the world how this wonderful process helped them, saved their life even just like in the many pro Methadone and Suboxone forums. Many many people who would come back day after day to make sure people knew this was no hoax.

[OxyQueen]

a DISGUSTING scam at that!!!

Chi's story totally freaked me out...

[Coddfish]

alright, time to weigh in.

swim did this back in 96 or 7, can't rememebr the year off hand. had to do it in baja, because it wasn't legal in the us yet. still, it was this same group. it was an absolutely horrible experience, and i cannot recommend it to any level of addict.

the feeling of failure after being clean for a coupla days and then relapsing is nothing compared to the feeling of failure after paying for a plane ticket, hotel rooms, 8k (at the time) for treatment, and a crapload of $ for worthless meds. . . . .and then relapsing within 24 hours.

as one who's done it, i feel totally comfortable saying "DO NOT ever EVER give a dime to these people." give it to me and i'll send you a baggie full of pine needles that'll get you just as clean just as fast.

i'll be back when i have more time to put down my story. haven't read chi's, but i bet it's on par with his.