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madnesscult
11-15-2006, 05:54 PM
Okay, so this is a combination of posts by myself and tm420tm, and should pretty much answer whatever basic questions anyone has about bupe!

Contents:
1. What buperenorphine is good for/general information
2. Suboxone Vs. Subutex
3. Finding a doctor and questions to ask
4. Physician legal issues
5. Dealing with your doctor
6. First Dose
7. Value of bupe for getting high
8. Weekend Warriors
9. Buprenorphine Myths

1. What buprenorphine is good for/general information:
Buprenorphine is very useful for both maintenance and detox. It's great if you're serious about getting off of your DOC, but if you're just looking for something to hold withdrawls at bay, there are better choices. Because of buprenorphine's long half-life, it is very easy to taper your dose as well as maintain.

Buprenorphine is NOT an opiate, however, it is an opioid. It will not show up on the majority of drug tests. Here's some vital information about taking buprenorphine:

DO NOT SWALLOW SUBOXONE/SUBUTEX PILLS. Suboxone and Subutex are designed to be taken sublingually, which means dissolved underneath the tongue. If you swallow the entire pill, only a very small amount will be absorbed in your stomach/intestines and you will have essentially wasted it.
Taking bupe too soon after another opiate will send you into precipitated withdrawl, see the "First Dose" section below.Abbreviations:
bupe = buprenorphine
sub(s) = suboxone, although here it is used for both suboxone and subutex when talking in general terms
tex = subutex

2. Suboxone Vs. Subutex:
Buprenorphine is available in two different forms: suboxone and subutex. Subutex contains buprenorphine, and nothing else. Suboxone contains buprenorphine and nalaxone, which is designed to prevent abuse, as well as the orange flavoring. Some people prefer one over the other, and most people like subutex better. Suboxone is good if you only take your doses sublingually, but if you IV or insuffulate, then subutex is a better option.

3. Finding a doctor and questions to ask:
There are three sites with doctor search functions, the suboxone website, and the National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine Treatment (NAABT), and the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHA), to which I have provided links below. The NAABT site is a little more helpful, because there is a patient-physician matching system, where the site sends your information to doctors in your area so they may contact you when they have an opening.

Doctors that are certified to prescribe subs are currently restricted by a 30-patient limit, so you may not be able to find one who can treat you immediately, so you may have to get on waiting lists.

When you call a doctor's office, here are some basic questions to ask:

Is the doctor currently accepting patients, and if not, is there a waiting list you can be added to?
Does the doctor accept your insurance?
If s/he doesn't accept your insurance, how much do they charge per visit? Is there an initial program fee?
How often does s/he require that his patients come in? Most doctors require that their patients have monthly appointments, although this varies from physician to physician.
Does the doctor do both maintenance and detox treatments?4. Physician legal issues:
Because buprenorphine is a scheduled drug, there are many restrictions and rules physicians must follow. Before a doctor is legally allowed to prescribe suboxone/subutex, they must go through a certification program, which can take up to a month (the suboxone website lists not only certified doctors, but also ones who have not yet completed the certification process). Each certified physician is only allowed to provide bupe treatment for 30 patients at once, so many doctors have waiting lists.

5. Dealing with your doctor:
First of all, not every doctor is accomadating and nice. Many physicians become certified to provide bupe treatment for the money, not because they are interested in helping people. It's generally easy to tell whether your doctor is genuinely concerned with helping you with your addiction fairly early on, and if they sound like an asshole when you first talk to them on the phone/meet them, they're going to be an asshole throughout your treatment.

When you see your doctor to get your sub script, you may be able to also get other meds, depending upon your physician.
Some suggested meds to ask for:

Benzos - valium and xanax seem to be the most popular. You can ask that you get these for anxiety or to help you sleep.
Sleep aids - Ambien and Lunesta have been reccomended, but there are many prescription sleep aids out there.
Clonidine - generally good for dealing with withdrawls.Of course there are many other drugs that may be of help to you either while you're doing bupe treatment or when you decide to get off of it.

The majority of bupe doctors are really under-informed, and may not know what really is best for you. The more you know about the drug, and what works for you, the better. Many physicians over-prescirbe suboxone/subutex, which can be a good or a bad thing...it can be a bad thing if you are taking what you are prescribed, which can cause some unpleasant side effects (more details later), and the golden rule with bupe is "LESS IS MORE". Being over-prescribed can be a good thing because you may be able to save your pills and stock up for "rainy days".

There are certain things you want to tell your doctor, and there are others you generally shouldn't.
Things to tell your doctor:

If your dose is not adequate
If you're experiencing bad side effects (not those associated with a too-high dose though)
If you need other medications as wellThings NOT to tell your doctor:

If you've used/are using other drugs
If your dose is too high
If you taper your doseMany people prefer subutex to suboxone for various reasons. Most doctors will prescribe suboxone by default, and some are apprehensive to prescribe subutex (because of it's higher abuse potential). If you wish to take subutex instead of suboxone, during your first appointment you can ask your doctor for it. If he declines, just accept your first suboxone script, then on your next visit, complain of headaches (it's one of the most common side effects of suboxone, and is associated with the nalaxone), and s/he should switch you over to subutex. Of course, there is going to be some doctors out there who just won't prescribe subutex.

6. First dose:
You cannot take buprenorphine while there is still other opiates in your system, and to do so will send you into precipitated withdrawl. Precipiated withdrawl is caused because when you take the bupe, it immediately rips whatever opiate you've still got in you out of the receptors, sending you into instant withdrawl. From my own experience, and that of others, precipitated withdrawls are worse than any others.

As a general rule, you should wait at least 12 hours after your last dose of your DOC before taking your first dose of subs.


I have to go now, but I'll finish this as soon as I get back!

madnesscult
11-16-2006, 04:52 PM
6. First dose (continued)
If you take the subs too early and are sent into precipitated withdrawl, the more subs you've taken, the longer it'll last, and that is why it's advised to take no more than 2mg at first. The worst thing you can do if you're in precipitated withdrawls is to take more subs (which is a common mistake made by uninformed users - they don't know about the precipiated withdrawl, and think more drugs = feel better). I've heard some anecdotes that it's possible to combat precipitated withdrawl by taking some of your DOC, but I've never tried this and it doesn't seem as though it would work.

A note on why precipitated withdrawl is caused: like I said in the last post, precipitated withdrawl is casued by the bupe suddenly ripping the other opiates off of your recpetors...I am not a doctor or scientist, and I'm sure that others (like Candy or Vaxn8) can explain this better than I.

After the first day, it is much easier to figure out how much subs you'll need to feel okay. For the second day, you should initially just take the same amount as you did on the first, but don't need to go through the 2-mg per half hour deal. Many people, including myslef, find that they need slightly more bupe on the second day as the first. You should be able to begin tapering your dose easily after the 3rd day, and even if you're doing maintenace you might want to taper your dose anyway to the minimum needed to feel okay.

7. Getting high off of bupe
Like tm said, the majority of people are not able to get high off of bupe. The exception to this is people who have low tolerances. Unless you're one of the few who have such a low tolerance, it's really not worth it to try and get high from subs. Although generally with opiates a higher dose = better feeling and possibly a high, but this is not usually the case with bupe. For most people, higher doses of sub can actually cause them to feel worse, as most of the negative side-effects of subs occur mostly in higher doses.

8. "Weekend warriors"
Many people, including myself, will take "vacations" off of their subs to use other opiates and get high. This is a really bad idea if you're trying to detox, as it can very easily raise your tolerance. Because of the blocking effects of bupe, you'll need a larger amount of your DOC to get high than you normally would, and you'll most likely have to continue using that elevated amount thus raising your tolerance. By the time you go back to your subs, you will undoubtedly find that you'll need a much higher dose than when you stopped.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, and tm420tm re-posted, bupe has a half-life of 36 hours. Which means it takes 36 hours for your body to metabolize 1/2 of your dose (so if you took 8mg today at 10am, by 10pm tomorrow night you'd have 4mg left in your system). I had originally said that if you took 8mg today at 10am, by tomorrow at 10pm you'd have 4mg left in your system, and by 10am on Sunday, that dose would have been metabolized. This is not true, as vaxn8 pointed out:

"The statement that you'd be clean by Sunday isn't true, but it's a common misinterpretation of how half lives work. Half-lives are not linear, they are an exponential decay function. All that means, is that is doesn't happen in a straight line (if you made a graph). At one half life, you would have lost half of the drug, that is true, so Thurs 10 PM, or 36 hours post dose, half is gone. At this point, most people assume that since it took 36 hours to get rid of the first four, the second 4 will just take another 36 hours, not true. Two half lives is really t1/4 (a quarter life), at half life number 2 which would be 72 hours, you have 1/4 of the dose remaining. Next is t1/8, so at 108 hours (3*72) you have 1/8 of the drug left."

Anyway, in addition to the last dose you took (ie that 8mg today at 10am for example), you'll also have remanants of any other doses you took previous to that, so you'll really have much more than just the 8mg in your system.

If you're planning on stopping your subs to get high, it depends upon the amount you're taking how long you'll have to wait so as not to waste drugs. If you're on a dose of 4mg or higher, you should wait at least 48 hours after your last dose to try and get high. The bupe will still be in your system and thus will still be blocking other opiates, but at that point the blocking effects will not be as severe. If you're taking 2mg or less, you may only need to wait about 24 hours after your last dose to be able to take a reasonable amount of another opiate and get high.

As well as raising your tolerance, being a "weekend warrior" has other drawbacks. First off, you'll have to go through the whole ordeal of starting your first dose again as detailed above. Secondly, some doctors/clinics make their patients take drug tests, and may even refuse to continue treatment if you have a dirty test. Although this is a frequent practice with clinics, most doctors don't require thier patients to this, but you should still check with your doc.

8. Buprenorphine myths:
The nalaxone in suboxone will casue you to go into withdrawls if you take them in a way other than sublingually (like IV or insuffulation).
Nalaxone was added into suboxone for precisely the reason of preventing abuse through alternative ways of administration, but many people have found that it doesn't actually work for this. Many people, including those on this forum, routinely IV or insuffulate their sub doses, although subutex is much better for this (not only because it's lacking the nalaxone, but because it's also lacking the dyes and flavoring that suboxone has).

Taking another opiate while you're on bupe will cause you to go into withdrawls/taking other opiates will kill you.
Both of these statements are completely incorrect. Taking other opiates after taking your sub dose will not send you into withdrawls, but taking subs (too soon) after another opiate will. Taking another opiate while taking subs will not kill you outright. This myth, which is often told by doctors to their patients, is not exactly true. What can happen is that you take so much of your DOC to blast through the blocking effects of the bupe that you OD.

Detoxing with bupe is painless and has little to no withdrawls.
ENTIRELY FALSE. If you've only taken subs for a short amount of time, under a month or so, the withdrawls are very mild and easy (compared to withdrawls from other opiates), but the longer one takes bupe the worse their withdrawls will be when they finally stop. It seems to be the case that after about a month to a month and a half, the withdrawls from bupe are much worse and longer.

That's all I can think of for now, although I'm sure there's more.

9. Tapering and withdrawls:Although most doctors will reccomend that you do a long-term taper over several months, but this isn't always the best thing for everyone. Like I said in the "myths" section, the longer you're taking subs the worse the withdrawls. If you're looking for the easiest way to get off in regards to withdrawls, a short taper is your best bet. After about a month to a month and a half on subs, the withdrawls are much worse and last much longer than a short time on the subs. I have experienced this myself...the first time I detoxed with subs, I had been on them for around 4 months. While the withdrawls were much better than that of heroin, they were still quite bad, and I ended up going back to my DOC after about 6 days. The second time I tried detoxing with subs, I did a 20-day taper, and found that the withdrawls were much, much easier than the last time.

Some people may benefit more from a long-term taper or maintenance, as they may need time to get their lives back on track and whatnot, but you need to decide for yourself what's best for you. Doctors don't like putting people on short-term tapers because it means less money for them (since you won't need as many office visits), and will almost always suggest a long taper or maintenance. If your doctor is opposed to a short taper, just don't tell him/her that you're planning on one! In my experience, doctors genuinely believe that sub withdrawls are "painless" and don't believe that if you're on them for over a month that detoxing becomes much harder. When I told my doctor that I wanted to do a short taper because of that fact, she told me that there was no evidence that the withdrawls are worse after a month, and that a long-term taper over several months was best to get away from my "life of drug abuse".

If you're considering doing a short taper with subs, there is a general schedule that has worked well for many people:

Day 1: 8mg
Day 2: 10mg
Day 3: 8mg
Day 4: 6mg
Day 5: 6mg
Day 6: 4mg
Day 7: 4mg
Day 8: 3mg
Day 9: 3mg
Day 10: 2mg
Day 11: 2mg
Day 12: 1.5mg
Day 13: 1.5mg
Day 14: 1mg
Day 15: 1mg
Day 16: nothing or 0.5mg if needed

Of course this is just a suggestion, and if you do decide to use this, tailor it to your needs (ie increase/decrease doses or length of time as needed).


While the withdrawls from bupe are much more mild than those of other opiates/opioids, they last a hell of a lot longer. The acute symptoms can last anywhere from 2 weeks to over a month, depending upon how long you've been taking bupe, and the PAWS can last for over a year. Again, the shorter the amount of time you've taken bupe, the more mild and shorter the withdrawls will be (up to a point - if you only take it for a day, you won't be magically cured or anything).

10. Methadone and buprenorphine detox:
While I would generally reccomend a short bupe detox, it's not always the best thing. If you're going from methadone to subs, a longer taper is really in your best interests. If you do a short taper like the 15-day one above, you'll find the withdralws much harder than if you had come from heroin or another opiate - when you stop the subs, you'll still be getting the methadone out of your system and will essentially be going through methadone withdrawls too.

If you're going from methadone to subs, you should take the subs for at least a month or two until the methadone is completely out of your system. Although the withdrawls will be worse than a normal short-term detox, they'll be much easier than a short-term detox coming from methadone.





I think this, in combination with my other post and tm420tm's should just about cover everything!

repeek
11-16-2006, 05:59 PM
I've heard some anecdotes that it's possible to combat precipitated withdrawal by taking some of your DOC, but I've never tried this and it doesn't seem as though it would work.

This will work as long as you don’t continue taking more Sub, and you started with a low dose of Sub to begin with. My first experience with sub was a disaster, I waited till I was in moderate W/D took two 8mg Sub’s and went into precipitated withdrawals, Dr said take more, so I took another 8mg and it didn’t work, Dr said take more, took another 8mg Sub, Dr said take DOC, it didn’t work; thirteen hours later DOC took the edge off. My second experience was a little better (having read of others experience) waited till I was in severe withdrawal, took 4mg Sub and went into precipitated W/D, did DOC and was alright in ten minutes (I was not high, but not sick at all).

madnesscult
11-16-2006, 10:38 PM
Hey if one of the mod's could, please delete my post- that way madnesscult's post will have some continuity. Or just move it to the bottom. Thanks!

And while they're at it, sticky this shit!

SpecialGuy69
11-16-2006, 10:41 PM
hey madnesscult- we kick ass! We should be opio-immortalized by having our very own sticky! What an honor that would be!

stross
11-16-2006, 11:07 PM
This is pretty good. It's kinda weird I came across this because I'm actually in the process of making a HUGE guide to buprenorphine (Suboxone/Subutex-based guide). It's roughly like 4-5 pages long so far. It'll be out soon!

Lots of good information here guys!

Duckfeet
11-16-2006, 11:20 PM
Great post: I emailed it to myself, and actually used your link: NAABT.org today, and got two docs, and got appt for tomorrow, as I'm trying to switch from methadone--at clinic--to subs, through a doc.

After inability to successfully detox off dilaudids I got on methadone maintenance, and typically, after a few weeks of the physical lethargy, and constipation, hated it, and I went through the high-dollar sub detox out in Florida, and they give you a transition of 5 1/2 days of Oxycontin, between methadone and first sub, which is good. But after about a month sub detox, which was pretty painless, I hit zero, and after a few days of being miserable, I went back to methadone clinic, got back on the 'done.

I found the day to day life on subs much better than same on methadone, which is why I'm switching back to subs. Only tough part will be convincing doc to put me on subutex, rather than suboxone, so we'll see.

Anyway, should be a "stickey" is a great and useful post.

SpecialGuy69
11-17-2006, 12:05 AM
Duck- I really hope it works out for you, bro! If you feel like it, we could use a paragraph or 2 or 3 of "life on subutex" kinda just describing the day-to-day of a subutex maintenance user. Things like how it makes you feel, dosing, the taste, effect on mood, physical sensations associated with bupe, what it feel like once you're stabilized, etc.

Open invite- if anyone else has something to add, especially something in a 1-2 paragraph format like I described above, on anything you feel like madness & I omitted, please post it here, and eventually, i'll compile it all together with everyone's (credited) contributions.

Thanks everyone!

Oh, and duck- try the food coloring allergy if you can list it on the intake form under allergies- that way you don't even have to bring it up. Or just tell the doc straight up that everyone you have spoken with says subutex is better. If you can get your veins to the point where you could believeably say that you're not an IV user, the doc probably will be okay with putting you on subutex- that seems to be how they decide which one to use- if your an IV user, you get the orange doo-doo stop signs. If you're not, you get the tightie-whities subutex's.

Oh- one thing I'm gonna add-
The Tablets:
Subutex doesn't have a generic equivalent yet, and so far, no manufacturer has expressed interest in producing it. So, there's no price relief on the horizon for Subutex/Suboxone maintenance users. The 8mg tabs are cheaper per mg than the 2mg tabs. I've tried both, and they both have pluses and minuses.
2mg tabs:
great for getting your taper down very low
tend to crumble if you carry them with you, even in a container with cotton
more expensive per mg (not a whole lot)
seem to dissolve faster- 4 2mg tabs will dissolve faster than 1 8mg tab
8mg tabs:
stay together a little better (not a whole lot better, but some)
cheaper (slightly)
much easier to find in stock at the pharmacy
Remember- Subutex isn't carried in every pharmacy's inventory. If you are going to the subutex doctor already in w/d's, call around beforehand to local pharmacies to find out which ones have the subutex in stock. Nothing is worse than getting your script when your sick, and you can't find a pharmacy to fill it. Ask your subutex doctor or other patients which pharmacies to try. Also, pharmacies that are in ghetto areas, 24 hour locations, or locations near hospitals tend to be more well-stocked in general.

slugbone
11-17-2006, 12:24 AM
yeah, great stuff guys....

i know it was a shit load of work. i'm going to make a copy for myself for when that time comes. anyway a big THANK YOU for the information, it seemed pretty daunting task until you guys put it in a form i can deal with.

slugbone
11-17-2006, 12:25 AM
yeah, great stuff guys....
i know it was a shit load of work. i'm going to make a copy for myself for when that time comes. anyway a big THANK YOU for the information, it seemed pretty daunting task until you guys put it in a form i can deal with.

SpecialGuy69
11-17-2006, 12:56 AM
Thanks, slugbone. I'm gonna try and keep it going, improve/edit it as i go
I have a switch to subutex from DOC coming up, and I'm going to try and blog it so people can know what to expect.

ZodiacKiller
11-17-2006, 09:35 AM
Ok, guys, I just returned from my Sub doc, and I asked him pointedly "is Buprenorphine an opiate or not?". Well, both him and the nurse said, quite adamantly, that it is. It is, however, a CIII drug at this time.

So, yeah, I think your guide is fantastic, and I'd be happy to merge the threads and make it a sticky in the Bupe forum, but we need to discuss changing the statement that Bupe is not an opiate.



ZK

flipside
11-17-2006, 10:07 AM
Thanks ZK, I thought that the PDR was right, but I'm not a PharmD, I had posted this with sources in the first thread where this guide began. It is def an opiate.

vaxn8
11-17-2006, 10:14 AM
^i think that came from someone misinterpreting the definition of opiod vs opiate, it was in bizzy's constipation thread if you want to see the difference, i just can't write it again right now

SpecialGuy69
11-17-2006, 10:17 AM
Please do, ZK. Give us a few days to get everything finalized, and we'll go from there. Thanks!

Duckfeet
11-17-2006, 12:25 PM
Duck- I really hope it works out for you, bro! If you feel like it, we could use a paragraph or 2 or 3 of "life on subutex" kinda just describing the day-to-day of a subutex maintenance user. Things like how it makes you feel, dosing, the taste, effect on mood, physical sensations associated with bupe, what it feel like once you're stabilized, etc.
[/I]


Yep. My appt w/new sub doctor is this afternoon. The NAABT guide actually gives the addresses and how far away the docs are too. Both number called back--one'of them I had to have health care, so I went with other one. I'll post how the whole thing goes. Feel free to use it or not, no sweat. There is still little info on sub use. I've heard--and they are pretty convincing--some of the horror stories of people on larger amounts of subs over long periods: it seems of the tough built in opiate agonist/antagonist of subs, they start to reject *themselves* and when *that* sends you into withdrawals, there is nothing you can do. So if that is true, it's something to be careful of. The heroin-detox website has a forum dedicated to this, and I was on there for a while. Nice people. Good stickeys, but frightening. But I was content at lower dose, so we'll see.

Last time I had an easier transition, since they gave me oxys first, so this time, if all goes well, I presume I'll have to go into withdrawals before I can dose, which on methadone can take more than 24hrs, so I'll see. I have good memories of last time on subs, and I don't like methadone, so we'll see. I travel a lot. *Another* good reason to be on subs, rather than methadone. I still hope to perhaps go to UK in March, and see if foreign national has chance of getting on diamorphine maintenance, but this will still be 2nd best choice.

I mean. What you all are doing, and the other drug online sites, is so necesary. We *know* we can't trust the medical establishment to give us the straight story. If they were honest we'ed have had heroin maint for people like me a long time ago, so we have to get the info ourselves. So again, *thankyou!* for trying to add to the much needed information. Even those of us--like me--who *want* to be on opiates, and *aren't* trying for a drug free life, deserve someone who tells us the truth about the few legal opiates available to addicts.

nick
11-17-2006, 12:32 PM
Beautiful TM and Madness.This is as user friendly as it gets and as someone pointed out I'd rather trust you guys then most docs.
P.S.70% of US bup scripts go to white guys.Don't know what this means,just thought I'd share.

madnesscult
11-17-2006, 02:58 PM
Ok, guys, I just returned from my Sub doc, and I asked him pointedly "is Buprenorphine an opiate or not?". Well, both him and the nurse said, quite adamantly, that it is. It is, however, a CIII drug at this time.

So, yeah, I think your guide is fantastic, and I'd be happy to merge the threads and make it a sticky in the Bupe forum, but we need to discuss changing the statement that Bupe is not an opiate.



ZK

In the "constipation" thread, vaxn8 explained that it's an opioid, not an opiate.
Here's what vax said:

Yes, there is a difference [between opiates and oipiods]. An opiod is anything that binds to opioid receptors. Most people think of the rx drugs as the only opiods, but there are really 3 different kinds, some people break them up into 4 categories.

Endogenous opioid peptides: produced in the body by the body;
Opium alkaloids: Morphine,codeine
Semi-synthetic opioids: heroin and oxycodone (derived/synthed from opium alkaloids)
Fully synthetic opioids: demerol and methadone (have structures unrelated to the opium alkaloids)The synthetics are sometimes thought of as one group, not split into fully synthetic and semi.

Opiate gets used very sloppily, often as a synonym for opioid. Technically, it should be limited to the natural opium alkaloids and the semi-synthetics derived from them.

So, buprenorphine is a semi-synthetic, as it is derived from thebaine.

ZodiacKiller
11-17-2006, 03:42 PM
Opiate gets used very sloppily, often as a synonym for opioid. Technically, it should be limited to the natural opium alkaloids and the semi-synthetics derived from them.

[/I]So, buprenorphine is a semi-synthetic, as it is derived from thebaine.

Ok, so if semi-synthetics are opiates, and Bupe is a semi-synthetic, it is an opiate. Or am I reading something wrong here?



ZK

Duckfeet
11-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Man, I went down and saw that doc I got from the NAABT site, only a couple of miles away. Was nice as could be, too. Hell, I felt like saying the hell with the subs, just give me a couple hundred dilaudids every week or so, and I'll be happy...

Anyway, he was really cool. Asked me a few questions, but said I seemed to know what was what, and was already at low methadone dose--25mg--so that was cool. Asked me if I thought I could detox from saturday until monday morning--no sweat.

So he says come in monday morning, as long as I was in some kind of withdrawals, he'd give me script, and I said subutex, and he asked if I had IV problems, and I said no, so he said he'd give me script monday, so seems hopeful. So that doc hookup that NAABT has really works, and it tells u right where doc is, too.

So, now I got the easy part over with, now just got to pass on Sunday dose, that should give me 48 hrs from last methadone dose to first sub, and at my low dose, I figure that should be cool. Like I said, last time I swapped, I was at detox and doc gave me a few days of oxys to transition from, which have less half life I guess, than subs.

Looks good so far. I hope they do the trick this time. I'm still not 100 per cent convinced subs don't have weird long term complications, but I'm hoping that if I keep dose down, like I did last time, won't be any problems. Only thing this time I'm not trying to detox, I'm tired of detoxing and this is bad time of year for it, all the holiday crap...and we got big waves here in the winter anyway, and I don't need to be sick when I get in that coldass pacific ocean in winter......

Thanks for help guys

flipside
11-18-2006, 03:23 PM
Ok, so if semi-synthetics are opiates, and Bupe is a semi-synthetic, it is an opiate. Or am I reading something wrong here?



ZK
You read correctly.
ZK, opiate /opoid both opitaes, one "semi synthetic" other not, will get those sources to you as soon as I get some sleep

SpecialGuy69
11-21-2006, 04:09 PM
I switched back to Subutex today after a 3 week run on OC and morphine. I'm exceedingly careful making the switch, and this time I had a formula set up that worked very well: First, when I knew my run was coming to an end, I cut all long-acting opiates out of the picture. For the last few days, no pod tea, no avinza (taken as directed) and no methadone, etc.
Then I got some extra short acting meds (dilaudid) for the last day. I also had a little hydro cough syrup and xanax.

The last day, I took my dilaudid over a 2 hour period, from about noon until 2pm. That held me pretty well until about 6 or 7pm, at which time I drank (just a little) hydro cough syrup. That would be my last opiate ingestion. Around 11pm, I felt really shitty, and was doubting I'd be able to sleep at all. I took a xanax, and the change was amazing- like 20 minutes later, I wasn't w/d'ing anymore. I actually got to sleep, which was nice. I slept most of the night, waking up every once in a while sweating, but not too bad overall.

I woke up around 11:00am, and felt like shit, so I started dosing subutex. I am always nervous at the prospect of precipitated w/d, so (even near the 24 hour mark), I do the 2mg at a time deal. I take 2mg again at noon and feel well enough to get out of bed. Stepping into my bathroom, I see that it is flooded! Sucks, and I'll have to deal with that bullshit when I get off work. It's really gross, a lot of water, and I don't have a shopvac. Shit!

Anyways, I was feeling chills, goosebumps, hot flashes (brief), headache, no energy whatsoever, etc. up until about right now. I'm thinking that I'm over the worst of it right now, 8mg later. Overall, it wasn't that tough a switch, but it would have been nice to have today off from work. Once you feel better, you're all set, from there on out, just dose as little as possible. I'm glad to be back to sanity for a little while.

The plan is to stay clean for 9 days, until my PM doc's appointment. I might fuck up, I might not. I'll keep you guys posted. It sucks to go back on subutex, knowing that it's a huge expense and ordeal if I want to get high now. That's why I usually string all my using together, try to get it out of my system at once. But when I'm struggling to feel any effects from a snorted OC 80, I need to take a break.

ZodiacKiller
11-21-2006, 04:31 PM
Man, some people have the toughest time switching over....it's weird how it's different for everyone.

I did a bunch of really potent H all weekend, multi-dosing through each day, until the last of it was gone Sunday nite around 9:00pm. I stayed high 'till at least 3:00am, and went to bed high.

Woke up Monday, showed up at the job round 9. At about 1:00, I started feeling just a little tweaky so I did an 8mg Subutex. No precipitated WD, and I felt fine with a lot of energy. Today I felt just a tiny bit tweaky at around noon so I did a 2mg. Feel fine. Doubt I'll need anything tomorrow or the rest of the week.

That's been pretty much what I've been doing since I kicked completely about a month ago whenever we relapse. Just a little sub the next day or two to take the edge off, then nothing 'till the next fun-time.



ZK

SpecialGuy69
11-21-2006, 04:47 PM
Right on, ZK. I was wondering if my titration was a little too conservative. (if i took it too slow), causing myself unnecessary pain. I went at 2mg/hr, and it wasn't terrible, just a kind of general shittiness. I'm fine now. It's so short lived, it couldn't even be called payback.

The only difference between my experience and yours, ZK, is that I had been on a 3 week run, where you were only goin for the weekend. I have found that if I keep my runs to 2-3 days, the switch over is painless. So maybe next time, I should keep my run shorter, and dose a little more aggressively at the 24 hour mark.

Duckfeet
11-21-2006, 05:01 PM
Good reading these posts. And I started back on subutex yesterday. 48hr from last methadone dose of 25mg. And I don't think it's how long, so much, as knowing you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms. With methadone, I know that can be tricky, and I would have waited, if needed, another 24hrs, but I was sick, and knew it wasbkicking, so I went to doc, he gave me script for 30 8mg subutex, just what I'd wanted. This guy *didn't* seem to know a lot about it, to be truthful: he seemed to kind of trust my judgement, both on giving me subutex (rather than suboxone), and on how *long* I needed to wait before first dose. He also seemed fine w/me taking 8mg, first dose, which I *don't* recommend, BTW, because if u r wrong about kicking, it's better to have only 2mg, or so I've heard...

It took an hr to kick in, and by late afternoon felt well opiated, but "speedy", like I'd dranken tons of coffee or something: subs hit that way last time too, at least first week, at higher doses.

I always figure less is more w/subs, so dropped today to 4mg....*but* by afternoon, I *was* feeling kind of crummy, actually had some kicking sweats, general bad feeling, so I took other half of pill(4mg) just a few minutes ago. so I'll stay at 8mg another day or so, maybe try 6mg first, though as u guys know, the 8mg pills are crumbly, when u try to divy them up beneath 4mg.

but generally I prefer the way I feel on subs, to the way I feel on methadone, so I'm going to try to wrestle it down to at least 4mg, but I think I might still be having some methadone withdrawals, since today it didn't hold me...or either just dopefiend pig, and always want to do more LOL...we'll see.

I still can't find enough consistent info on longterm use of subs. I mean, I've read Ratch and some of the other spooky stickys on heroin-detox site, but still, I got to see what maybe low dose does, after period of time...

ZodiacKiller
11-21-2006, 05:06 PM
The only difference between my experience and yours, ZK, is that I had been on a 3 week run, where you were only goin for the weekend. I have found that if I keep my runs to 2-3 days, the switch over is painless. So maybe next time, I should keep my run shorter, and dose a little more aggressively at the 24 hour mark.

Fuck, tm, I didn't know you were coming off that long a run.... I'd be back to being full-on addicted if I did a run like that again. It's been a while: I'm enjoying my "weekend warrior" status.

So I can definitely understand your trepidation at the beginning, but if 2mg didn't precipitate WD, I think you'd be ok taking as much as you needed to feel well after that. After a run like yours, I'd be in full WD anyway the next day for sure. Glad you switched ok, though.



ZK

SpecialGuy69
11-21-2006, 05:46 PM
Yeah, it was pretty dumb to do that long of a run- it's just that when you finally get the subutex out of your system, it's like your in a whole different world, a better world. Right now, with 10mg of subutex in my system today, I'm pretty much stuck- nothing short of a big shot of dope is going to touch me. That part sucks.

It's so fucking cold that part is fucking with me- for me the rls and the chills/sweats/fever is the worst part of w/d. The stomach shit can be controlled with loperamid, so it's defninitely the thigh muscles on fire that gets me. I hate working while I'm doing the switch. It sucks. But I'm still 100 x better than I would have been with nothing. I can't even begin to imagine what Nick went through kicking his habit CT. And I don't IV, either. Shit that guy is a fuckin stud for doin it oldschool like that.

infolooker95
11-29-2006, 07:57 PM
First what does IM stand for? i gather shooting up or banging but what exactly? also what is half life?? in ur writing u write "if u take it today" what day is the "today" ur talking about. can u please explain half-life to me better. Thanx

SpecialGuy69
11-29-2006, 08:39 PM
First what does IM stand for? i gather shooting up or banging but what exactly? also what is half life?? in ur writing u write "if u take it today" what day is the "today" ur talking about. can u please explain half-life to me better. Thanx
OK- IM=muscle injection. PM=private message TM=me
I'm not sure what you mean about today. If you can clarify your question a little, I'll probably be able to give you a long, boring answer.

On further reflection, this just sounds like an idiotic question- "what day is today?" are you serious? Well, today is November 30th. Come on, you could easily utfse to find out the answer to that one. Or google.

kyuss
11-29-2006, 09:44 PM
Great thread
TM and Madness.
I'd love to try bupe
but,I'm worried how
it might affect my CDL's.
I don't want anything
to fuck up how I make money.
I'm not looking for work now,
but if I do try to go back on the road
having Junky on any paperwork
could end my career.

CUBErt
11-29-2006, 11:43 PM
Sorry im skimming by quickly but it looks awesome you guys. Post this up in the Upgrade Project forum, my article is getting lonely

SpecialGuy69
11-29-2006, 11:48 PM
Thanks cube and Kyuss! I'd be honored to be in the upgrade forum. Kyuss- that's a really good topic of bupe we haven't addressed yet- detection by drug tests. I'll do some research, but I recall being told that it won't show up on anything but the most sophisticated tests, like mass spec/gas chromotography (sp?)

If someone knows more about detection of buprenorphine by drug tests, please speak up!

madnesscult
11-30-2006, 12:03 AM
First what does IM stand for? i gather shooting up or banging but what exactly? also what is half life?? in ur writing u write "if u take it today" what day is the "today" ur talking about. can u please explain half-life to me better. Thanx

"IM" means intra-muscular, as in a muscle shot (if you don't know what that is, it's when one injects into a muscle, like getting a shot in the bicep at the doctor's). As for "today" it means exactly that. In the guide, I used "today" in hypothetical terms, because it's just easier than saying "day one, day two, etc".


Thanks cube and Kyuss! I'd be honored to be in the upgrade forum. Kyuss- that's a really good topic of bupe we haven't addressed yet- detection by drug tests. I'll do some research, but I recall being told that it won't show up on anything but the most sophisticated tests, like mass spec/gas chromotography (sp?)

If someone knows more about detection of buprenorphine by drug tests, please speak up!

Buprenorphine will not show up on the majority of drug tests. Since it's not an opiate (but an opioid), it won't show up as an opiate on traditional drug tests. The only time it can be detected, I believe, is if it is specifically being tested for. I'm sure Vax or Candy can elaborate on this further.

SpecialGuy69
11-30-2006, 12:48 AM
"IM" means intra-muscular, as in a muscle shot (if you don't know what that is, it's when one injects into a muscle, like getting a shot in the bicep at the doctor's). As for "today" it means exactly that. In the guide, I used "today" in hypothetical terms, because it's just easier than saying "day one, day two, etc".



Buprenorphine will not show up on the majority of drug tests. Since it's not an opiate (but an opioid), it won't show up as an opiate on traditional drug tests. The only time it can be detected, I believe, is if it is specifically being tested for. I'm sure Vax or Candy can elaborate on this further.
^ sounds right. I think the only way they are gonna find buprenorphine is if they are looking for it, or if they are doing mass spectrometry/gas chromatography, where every component of your blood/urine is identified. Since it is so closely related to opiates, buprenorphine may have some very similar metabolites to opiates, and that's what they are really testing for, not the original drug (in the case of opiates anyways). If the metabolites are close enough, they my cause a positive test result. I dont know. Needs to be investigated further.

madnesscult
11-30-2006, 07:23 PM
Whether or not they're looking for it, bupe shouldn't cause a positive for opiates, and it shouldn't come up for anything unless it's a quite sophisticated test.

madnesscult
12-04-2006, 06:14 PM
Any mods wanna sticky this? The point of it was to give people answers to the majority of questions that get asked here, and it doesn't help if people don't see the thread!

ZodiacKiller
12-04-2006, 06:18 PM
done...............



ZK

SpecialGuy69
12-04-2006, 06:22 PM
thanks, ZK! Much appreciated.

madnesscult
12-04-2006, 06:25 PM
Thank you ZK! :)

Golden_Brown
12-06-2006, 08:23 AM
OK im coming off my H for a bit to lower my tolerance and save cash, now I have 4 8mg subutex caps and im just wondering how best to use them, I had last shot last night around 9pm and I had half a tab 4 mg at about 12 today (its now 2.22) I felt rough beforehand now I feel fine, worked well, but should i take 4 mg every day til theyr gone or should i take 8mg or what? what would be best with what Ive got, thanks. Btw iv no other opiates or benzos, just these subs.

SpecialGuy69
12-06-2006, 10:32 AM
utmfse... fuck it ill do it for you. Read this before you ask questions: http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=4333&highlight=ultimate+sub+guide

Duckfeet
12-06-2006, 10:55 AM
OK im coming off my H for a bit to lower my tolerance and save cash, now I have 4 8mg subutex caps and im just wondering how best to use them, I had last shot last night around 9pm and I had half a tab 4 mg at about 12 today (its now 2.22) I felt rough beforehand now I feel fine, worked well, but should i take 4 mg every day til theyr gone or should i take 8mg or what? what would be best with what Ive got, thanks. Btw iv no other opiates or benzos, just these subs.

If 4mg is holding you, don't go up--why do that? You don't get any buzz off subs. All they're good for, IMO, is to keep off withdrawals...but I haven't met a junky yet who believed that--including me--so we usually go way up, like to 16mg, looking for buzz, then when we don't get one, scramble back down to where we started, in your case 4mg. Again, if u don't get sick, start at 4mg, then work out a taper plan to get back down to zero. It's usually not to hard to get down to 1mg, all kinds of different taper plans, doesn't really matter....from 1mg to zero, and first few days off can be a little painful, but IMO not as bad as H or methadone....search here, go to heroin-detox.com in Buprenorphine section: they have many posts telling you how to switch, how to taper, and the dire results of excessive longterm bup use LOL... Remember, scientists went to a whole lot of trouble to invent an opiate that doesn't get us high: we should be grateful. Fuck.

nick
12-06-2006, 10:57 AM
Goddam scientists.

OxyContinuously
12-06-2006, 11:20 AM
Subutex's only purpose really is to drive away wd's. There is no appreciable high related to it to speak of. And also, why if 4mg seems to do the job from a sickness point of view, would you increase the dosage to more than that? There would really be no point, plus, subs build up a tolerance relatively quickly, and once you are at a certain level, it gets really hard to taper down and off them because of their long duration. I would say to stay at 4mg and maybe even think about going lower than that.

flipside
12-06-2006, 11:36 AM
utmfse... fuck it ill do it for you. Read this before you ask questions: http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=4333&highlight=ultimate+sub+guide

Did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed this am?:p Have a hug babe:)

SpecialGuy69
12-06-2006, 12:19 PM
Just tired of people asking the same question now that the guide thread is sticky, you have to be looking right at it to post in the bupe section. And no matter how many experienced junkys say that you cant get high on subutex, people still feel the need to try. WTF. I'm just pissed. GB isnt the worst offender by a long shot. Hopefully you (goldenbrown) end up being a productive member of the op.

Duckfeet
12-06-2006, 12:32 PM
Just tired of people asking the same question now that the guide thread is sticky, you have to be looking right at it to post in the bupe section. And no matter how many experienced junkys say that you cant get high on subutex, people still feel the need to try. WTF. I'm just pissed. GB isnt the worst offender by a long shot. Hopefully you (goldenbrown) end up being a productive member of the op.

I hear you. Depends what kind of mood I'm in. But I know sometimes people new--like me--will post a question not so much to get the answer, but as a way of just sort of breaking the ice, saying "See me, here I am!" and can take a hard reply to heart. But I know it's just part of the forum, and I like it that this place isn't all touchy-feely, we love you!, etc. I know plenty of sites that will tell me all day long how wonderful and loving I am. I like it that here there's a little bit of grit w/the cookies. Makes it more like real life. More human. But I had to lurk a bit to see that. But if u haven't got a thick skin, damn sure need to get out of the junky game anyway LOL...

Here I might get swatted on the head, and then a hug too, just like grandma's. Kept me on my toes, since I was always trying to steal the chocolate chips from the kitchen shelf... ;-)

SpecialGuy69
12-06-2006, 12:36 PM
see it kinda makes me want to be nice to the new guys cause all of our cool members like you (duck) were new once. And I'd feel like an asshole if i flamed you on your first post, nevermind the fact that you have been around much longer than me and have the experience to demand the respect. But on the other hand, most of the cool, experienced people here didn't make a stupid question for a first post. I don't know what the correlation is, maybe I should ask woods, he seems to like arguing about logic and shit.

From now on, I'm going to be nice to new guys and flame only when absolutely necessary.

Look- I turned this into another "kiss duckfeet's ass" post without even noticing. You are just a badass, duck. You still going to mexico?

tptptp
12-06-2006, 12:45 PM
I've had a couple friends take high doses of subs and catch a nize buss that was followed by feeling super sick. I've also read about someone switching from tea to subs and catching a mild buzz in the beginning, but AFAIK even that goes away pretty quickly. I think it takes a real strong dose to get the buzz. My friend has little opiate tolerance and took 40mg subs with two xanny bars (which I DONT recommend)

Duckfeet
12-06-2006, 12:56 PM
see it kinda makes me want to be nice to the new guys cause all of our cool members like you (duck) were new once. And I'd feel like an asshole if i flamed you on your first post, nevermind the fact that you have been around much longer than me and have the experience to demand the respect. But on the other hand, most of the cool, experienced people here didn't make a stupid question for a first post. I don't know what the correlation is, maybe I should ask woods, he seems to like arguing about logic and shit.

From now on, I'm going to be nice to new guys and flame only when absolutely necessary.

Look- I turned this into another "kiss duckfeet's ass" post without even noticing. You are just a badass, duck. You still going to mexico?

Actually that whole post was me trying to say in a cool tough-guy way that I liked you the way you are, don't change... ;-)

And I think anybody online a while should know to lurk a bit, or yer bound to get jumped on...and there *are* people, seems like youngsters, want to immediately ask where to score, and at the same time show off how experienced they are, and I hate that. And I can jump into flame and craziness w/the best of'em...one of the reasons I left heroin-detox forum, when I first got on subs, tired of fights....but I like it here, just the way it is, a little dizzy, but i like that...

Yeah, I'm going to try to take off Monday, and stay up there thru holidays. I need to go up to Mom's Sunday, and piss her and others off tell'em I won't be here for Christmas, but I can't take another family thing.

I'm also re-upping on my subs, doc said monday I could pick up script this Friday, and drugstore ordered'em. so that was other thing. Also probably will take car, even though it's more of a hassle in Tijuana, but if I don't like TJ then it's a lot easier to slide down to Rosarito, which I do like, so that'll work out good.

I've never had as good a luck as some, getting opys south of the border, never hit right doc, or asked right question, but I do got a hunch that skag is best in TJ, while I'm thinking longterm better opys will be Rosarito, as there's a pain clinic down there, where I might get something going. But who knows, I might just end up bodysurfing in Rosarito and blowing off the whole deal, but I think I'll at least give it a shot. I dropped a couple days ago down to 6mg subs, hope to get down to 4mg, and then find something better, as this shit gets rid of withdrawals, but that's it, to me, no buzz, not even chickenshit methadone buzz....

"Doctor, me podria dar un poquito de morfina para este dolor que tengo?"

"Si Duckfeet, porque no--todo lo que quiere. Solo tiene que pedir!"

"Gracias! Gracias! Usted es tan amable, Doctor!"

;-)

Golden_Brown
12-07-2006, 08:01 PM
Thanks a lot for your replys . OK i coulda just read the stickies but I guess I was just lookin for a way of saying hi, anyways I took 4mg again this morning, again fine, but iv been dying for some proper shit all day, its been terrible, physically i been great but mentally iv been aching for some H, so...........I just scored lol, just got back, got me a big 1/16 oz, I had a jab and despite the sub this morning it buzzed me, at least I can look forward to something substantial in the morning instead of sucking on a shitty tablet :D

Cheers

tptptp
12-07-2006, 08:39 PM
Thanks a lot for your replys . OK i coulda just read the stickies but I guess I was just lookin for a way of saying hi, anyways I took 4mg again this morning, again fine, but iv been dying for some proper shit all day, its been terrible, physically i been great but mentally iv been aching for some H, so...........I just scored lol, just got back, got me a big 1/16 oz, I had a jab and despite the sub this morning it buzzed me, at least I can look forward to something substantial in the morning instead of sucking on a shitty tablet :D

Cheers
Yeah, having to repeat the process

Duckfeet
12-07-2006, 10:54 PM
Thanks a lot for your replys . OK i coulda just read the stickies but I guess I was just lookin for a way of saying hi, anyways I took 4mg again this morning, again fine, but iv been dying for some proper shit all day, its been terrible, physically i been great but mentally iv been aching for some H, so...........I just scored lol, just got back, got me a big 1/16 oz, I had a jab and despite the sub this morning it buzzed me, at least I can look forward to something substantial in the morning instead of sucking on a shitty tablet :D

Cheers

Yeah, I'm going thru this thing. I've been on subs, what, about three weeks I guess. And I used'em once before to get off methadone maint....this time I used'em *again* to get off mdone Maint...but this time I found a doc would prescribe subutex for maint, and I've been staying on'em, since I really don't like mdone...mostly the clinics, but it seems on methadone I get all lethargic, and just want to eat ice cream and bitch about being constipated.

But trouble with *subs* to me, is that they *do* get rid of withdrawal symptoms, but they don't seem to get rid of cravings for me, and since there isn't any noticable buzz, I have to keep remembering why I'm on them in the first place. They are *strong* opiates, stand up to any othe opiate, but I don't get any rewards from'em...so I'm slowly tapering down again, until I find some *short* acting opiates I do like...and then probably start the whole merry go round all over again, sigh...

I mean, I get up, I eat an opiate, I don't feel nothing...it just don't seem right!

Golden_Brown
12-08-2006, 03:33 AM
Lol - yeah duckfeet I know exactly what you mean, i mean im really happy I came across subs, and that I can get them so easily, whether u want to give up or not, the fact is I now have an easy way of managing my tolerance and therefore my addiction, there is nothing worse than being sick, and now I dont get sick anymore! And I dont have to start taking unaffordable amounts of H daily coz if my tolerance starts to get a bit too high, I just switch to subs for a while, I even come off completely for weeks, then get some good stuff and its like my 1st time all over again, the key here is management, if you can effectively manage your opiate use (and subs are a powerful tool to do such) then your addiction is not a problem.

Its been a major problem for me in the past, but thanks to easy access to subs and other stuff I can now confidently say that I am managing my habit, and for the first time in a long time I am actually enjoying my addiction!

Badly Drawn Girl
12-08-2006, 06:16 PM
On further reflection, this just sounds like an idiotic question- "what day is today?" are you serious? Well, today is November 30th. Come on, you could easily utfse to find out the answer to that one. Or google.

He wasn't asking what day is today literally. He wanted to know what you meant in the guide because it says something like "If you something something today you can start something something on Friday." Too sick to look it up but I'm assuming you can find it. So he's asking what day is today, in terms of your guide.

madnesscult
12-11-2006, 03:44 PM
He wasn't asking what day is today literally. He wanted to know what you meant in the guide because it says something like "If you something something today you can start something something on Friday." Too sick to look it up but I'm assuming you can find it. So he's asking what day is today, in terms of your guide.

I already answered this earlier, but I'll do it again: "today" was hypothetical, and only used as a means of example. I believe I even said "for example, if you were to X today". It was much easier to use that instead of "day 1, 2, 3, etc".

SobrietyBinge
12-15-2006, 02:14 PM
I just read this thread and I was wondering if someone could clear this up for me...

If I understand correctly, the possibility of precipitated withdrawals is a concern with suboxone, which contains naloxone, but with an issue with subutex, which does not. is that right?

Oh and also, I know that wikipedia isn't necessarily the greatest source for everything but let me quote this from the Naloxone entry:

"The Naloxone has no other use in Suboxone other than preventing users from injecting the Suboxone in the body. However, the Naloxone in Suboxone does cause side effects in some people. These side effects include, but are not limited to, Asthenia, chills, Headache, Infection, Pain, Pain in the Abdomen, Back Pain, Withdrawal Syndrome, Vasodilation, Constipation, Diarhea, Nausea, Vomiting, Insomnia, and Sweating. Other than patients who might inject opiates, there is no reason for Naloxone in Suboxone. Because of these side effects, the FDA recommends that doctors begin any chemical detox using Subutex, which does not contain any Naloxone. By this manner, if for some reason the doctor moves the patient to Suboxone and the patient begins having side effects related to Naloxone, the doctor can easily move the patient back to Subutex."

my italics there. suboxone should be a plan b unless you're obviously an IV user.

SpecialGuy69
12-15-2006, 02:37 PM
Yuck- No- it's the buprenorphine itself that precipitates withdrawls, not the naloxone. Both subutex and suboxone have bupe as their main active ingredient, and both will cause hellish precipitated withdrawls if you don't wait long enough to take them. Many, many people have firsthand experience precipitating withdrawls from subutex. But, if you are careful, this can be easily avoided.

Wikipedia is right on all counts, but a lot of docs like to use suboxone because of the lower incidence of abuse. I've found ZERO pleasurable effects from bupe (unless you count avoiding withdrawls as pleasurable).

SobrietyBinge
12-15-2006, 03:24 PM
ah ok, thanks for straightening me out on that one. That's pretty whack putting naloxone in if bupe is likely to cause pws already if it's abused. btw, did we ever get a ruling on whether or not subs will show up on drug tests now that it has been concluded that it is in fact an opiate, as opposed to an opiod? eh.. details details. just curious.

smack man
12-15-2006, 03:28 PM
Hey one good thing about getting on subutex is the possibility of getting other opiates to bring your tolerance down. When SWIM went for detox, SWIM told his doctor that he was taking about 15-20 oxy 80's a day. So before the doctor could start him on the bupe, he persribed SWIM 115 roxicodone 30mg's for a week before starting the program. So for SWIM, this was a nice little finale before having to quit opiates. Just an idea for those considering bupe. It does work wonders, no withdrawal. So good luck!

SpecialGuy69
12-15-2006, 05:13 PM
^holy shit! 15-20 OC 80's a day??!?!?!? that's so many I'm suprised the doc even believed ya

Duckfeet
12-15-2006, 07:57 PM
Hey one good thing about getting on subutex is the possibility of getting other opiates to bring your tolerance down. When SWIM went for detox, SWIM told his doctor that he was taking about 15-20 oxy 80's a day. So before the doctor could start him on the bupe, he persribed SWIM 115 roxicodone 30mg's for a week before starting the program. So for SWIM, this was a nice little finale before having to quit opiates. Just an idea for those considering bupe. It does work wonders, no withdrawal. So good luck!

Yeah, I hear you...first sub detox--coming off mdone maint--I went thru they gave me 5 1/2 days 80mg oxycontin before putting me on subutex...Palm beach, Rich guys detox...

Poor guys detox, we just suffer a couple three days until we start to get withdrawls, then go on subs.


My whole thing with subutex vs. suboxone is that it is so fucking paternalistic and condescending to want me on suboxone...it's telling me that no matter *what* I say, I'm going to cheat and shoot'em up, and that the naloxone--hopefully, to them--will kick in if I inject suboxone and I'll have a miserable ride. It is *so* chickenshit to me, so I hassled a doc until I got subutex. It's my bod, fuck them. They want to get all this money from me, and still want to play with my unchristian desire for this bit of happiness on this earth. There's no buzz whatsover for me from buprenorphine...as earlier poster wrote *all* it does is make me not have withdrawal symptoms, after coming off mdone maint...

Legal opiate maintenance in America: methadone or buprenorphine. Thanks a lot. Like asking me what I want for supper: a can of peas or a can of spinach? I want a goddamn hamburger, fuck you.

AWOL
12-15-2006, 08:18 PM
Like asking me what I want for supper: a can of peas or a can of spinach? I want a goddamn hamburger, fuck you.



BRAVO !!!!!

Opiyum
12-20-2006, 06:08 AM
This whole precipitated withdrawal thing is truly a mystery to me. It's been common practice for me to go back and forth for some time now but never, even when I took a sub dose only 4 hours after shooting two eighties I did not get it. In addition there mave been many other times in which I have gone back on subs from dope in a relatively short period of time and not gone into withdrawal whatsoever.
The same goes for a few friends that I have.
In fact when i have warned some people, that I sell my extra to, that they should wait until mild WD sets in before dosing they tell me that it's BS and ask me to name one person that I know who has had this happen to them. At which point I become speechless because I'm not going to begin to explain this forum to them. "Uh well I read about it on the internet"
I dont think so.
I just had an idea.....Im gonna create my first poll.

SpecialGuy69
12-20-2006, 09:07 AM
It can happen, but I think that if you are aware of the possibility, and understand WHY it happens, you will be much less likely to have this horrible shit happen to you.

Duckfeet
12-20-2006, 09:48 AM
This whole precipitated withdrawal thing is truly a mystery to me. It's been common practice for me to go back and forth for some time now but never, even when I took a sub dose only 4 hours after shooting two eighties I did not get it. In addition there mave been many other times in which I have gone back on subs from dope in a relatively short period of time and not gone into withdrawal whatsoever.
The same goes for a few friends that I have.
In fact when i have warned some people, that I sell my extra to, that they should wait until mild WD sets in before dosing they tell me that it's BS and ask me to name one person that I know who has had this happen to them. At which point I become speechless because I'm not going to begin to explain this forum to them. "Uh well I read about it on the internet"
I dont think so.
I just had an idea.....Im gonna create my first poll.

All I've really got to go on is what people say online. Seems rare, but then again, I always followed the rules, as my dislike of withdrawals is stronger than my desire to do subs. so far, anyway, I've waited 24 hrs for most opies, 2days or until I "feel" withdrawals coming off mdone maint. but on other forums I"ve head guys I belive, who in early days tried doing bup too soon. It seems to depend on dose. Particularly if u are coming off of over 50mg mdone maint, precipitate withdrawals sounds like horror show. But down at lower levels of short half-life, fast acting opies I figure it's not that big a deal. I don't think it's a myth, but I don't think there is any exact science to it either, since it's our own bodies, and they all act different. Me I'll wait at least until I know I go *no* buzz from other opiates, before doing subs, slightly kicking...

As a matter of fact, my doc doesn't even know himself, thought one day would be enough, coming off mdone, but I waited two. There are just too many variables...

SpecialGuy69
12-23-2006, 09:20 AM
okay i got a question for the people out there who have detoxed off subutex (are there any?) I know dorje managed to do it, so it can be done... Anyways- I've done a really rapid taper (12mg-1.5mg a day in 5 days) after a pretty strong OC habit and then stabilized sub dosing at 12mg/day for a few weeks. Do you think it's better to stabilize at .5-1mg for a few days before the jump-off, just keep halving doses until they're microscopic, or just jump off when I get to .5mgs/day? Like which would give me less discomfort? I'd like to think I have all the answers when it comes to subs, but I don't think I've made it this far before.

SpecialGuy69
12-23-2006, 09:24 AM
Yuck- No- it's the buprenorphine itself that precipitates withdrawls, not the naloxone. Both subutex and suboxone have bupe as their main active ingredient, and both will cause hellish precipitated withdrawls if you don't wait long enough to take them. Many, many people have firsthand experience precipitating withdrawls from subutex. But, if you are careful, this can be easily avoided.

Wikipedia is right on all counts, but a lot of docs like to use suboxone because of the lower incidence of abuse. I've found ZERO pleasurable effects from bupe (unless you count avoiding withdrawls as pleasurable).

oh- btw I actually did have a very small, but noticable glow from subutex the other day. If you catch this feeling, and enjoy it, the way to keep it around is dont take more while you are feeling good. It'll last a long time on it's own. If you add more, you'll cancel out the nice feeling. Then, wait till the next day to dose again (if you have enough sub in you to feel a nice glow, you have plenty in you to hold for 20+ hours)

ZodiacKiller
12-23-2006, 10:21 AM
okay i got a question for the people out there who have detoxed off subutex (are there any?) I know dorje managed to do it, so it can be done... Anyways- I've done a really rapid taper (12mg-1.5mg a day in 5 days) after a pretty strong OC habit and then stabilized sub dosing at 12mg/day for a few weeks. Do you think it's better to stabilize at .5-1mg for a few days before the jump-off, just keep halving doses until they're microscopic, or just jump off when I get to .5mgs/day? Like which would give me less discomfort? I'd like to think I have all the answers when it comes to subs, but I don't think I've made it this far before.

I've jumped off many times after tapering in a way quite similar to the way you've done it, and I think the smaller the amount, the less discomfort when finally stopping altogether. I'll usually do a couple/few days at .5mg, then a few days at even smaller amounts (like half that), then jump off. Then a couple days using benzos will help me even out---then sobriety & boredom. :(



ZK

AWOL
12-23-2006, 11:13 AM
---then sobriety & boredom. :(

This should be listed in that little pamphlet they give you as to one of the side effects to sub's. Actually it should be listed right under the "don't take with alcohol" crap in big bold letters



Buprenorphine is indicated for the treatment of moderate to severe pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain), peri-operative analgesia, and opioid dependence.

Effects (listed in order of occurance): Reduced withdrawl symptoms, sobriety, boredom.
Reckitt Benckiser Warning: Sobriety and boredom will occur following administration of Buprenorphine.

Duckfeet
12-24-2006, 12:08 AM
oh- btw I actually did have a very small, but noticable glow from subutex the other day. If you catch this feeling, and enjoy it, the way to keep it around is dont take more while you are feeling good. It'll last a long time on it's own. If you add more, you'll cancel out the nice feeling. Then, wait till the next day to dose again (if you have enough sub in you to feel a nice glow, you have plenty in you to hold for 20+ hours)

I find that if I just take *one* dose daily, of 4mg, and take it early in the morning, don't eat or nothing, about an hr later I feel better. I didn't get that on 8mg, for some reason I believe that on 4mg a day, I wake up just slightly sick, not constipated (like I am on 8mg) and I *do* feel it a little, then drink big mug of coffee, generally feel alright, not as much of a glow as early days of methadone gave me, but none of the crappy heavy constipated feeling I always got on longterm methadone maint.

And I agree with ZK on this. I mean I don't think it's rocket science, but I guess I keep dropping in dose every 2 or 3 days until there ain't nothing. A lot--with me--seems to have to do with having something to do, get me out of house. I go swimming, and tho I *hate* getting in the freezing ass pacific ocean, like I did today, it does take my mind off my troubles *immediately* and all I had to worry about is not getting hammered by these unceasing NW swells we got lately...but anything that gets me out of house, once I get down to really *small* doses of detox dose helps.

I'm staying at 4mg daily until something better comes my way....

suboxoneeater
12-27-2006, 09:12 AM
Ok, you should read a writeup on bluelight about suboxone. A poster states that too much bupe and you hit a receptor that you don't want to hit. It is perfectly in line with what I believe, I felt the best on a low dose, like 2mg once per day. I did NOT feel euphoria, I did feel better then being sober though. If I ate a full 8mg tablet I felt worse then a 2mg tablet.

BTW I switched from methadone 60mg, tapered down for a week and ate the bupe the next day when I woke up.

Duckfeet
12-27-2006, 11:23 AM
Ok, you should read a writeup on bluelight about suboxone. A poster states that too much bupe and you hit a receptor that you don't want to hit. It is perfectly in line with what I believe, I felt the best on a low dose, like 2mg once per day. I did NOT feel euphoria, I did feel better then being sober though. If I ate a full 8mg tablet I felt worse then a 2mg tablet.

BTW I switched from methadone 60mg, tapered down for a week and ate the bupe the next day when I woke up.
Yeah, I noticed that from the start. Higher doses didn't make me happier. Of course, I had the same experience on methadone, where if I could put up with 30mg or less, I'd be slightly sick when I woke up, and would feel my dose...higher doses all I got was consipated, lethargic, and unhappy.

Subs to me are slightly better than methadone physically, but slightly less buzz...but no clinic, and that means a lot. I don't like either one of them that much. There are many storys in the bup forum on heroin-detox also, which convince me. I mean, I fought with'em, was pissed off at what they wrote...but eventually I realized it was probably true. Higher doses of subs either bind with a weird receptor, as the blulight poster suggested, or my own opinion, that some weird way subs--once they start binding to ceertain receptors--can start rejecting themselves from the receptors. It's really fucked up and chemical, and I'd much rather have a steady supply of short acting opiates, but not in my lifetime, at least not here..... I'm at 4mg sub, maint for about a month or so, started at 8mg, aiming down to 2mg...

suboxoneeater
01-14-2007, 01:17 PM
Yes, short acting opiates are what I like also.

Why feel strange for 2 weeks straight when I can feel normal 24 hours later with the use of low levels naltrexone. I went to work 3 days after quitting bupe and I could barely even stand. And the entire time the euphoria was passed by a single vicodin i bet. Not a worthy payout.

(oh yeah, plus paying an assload for pills.)

Methadone, on the other hand, is ok for recreational pursuits. Too bad clinics make you dose in front of them for an unreal amount of time, otherwise I'd secure myself some and dose every few days.

DUi256
01-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Damn after reading this I really fucked up. Anyways Thursday a friend gave me a 8mg suboxone that I saved for the next day cause from past experiences it always worked better that way. Well the next morning, Friday I took the suboxone and me being so used to having stuff in my pocket and taking whenever, I went an got 3 more 8mg suboxone and took 2 more that day trying to chase the buzz. The next day I took 1 of the 2 I had left in the morning and when I went on break at work I took the other one. Well during my lunch I ended up getting 2 more suboxone for the next day steadily thinking about that buzz that I got the first time I ever did them. Well the next day before I went to work I took the 2 suboxone that I had left thinking "yea that'll do it, there's no doubt" only to feel like shit all day at work, not withdraw can't move sick just like a in between feeling. So when I went on break I took one percocet 10 and then I felt alright but of course I took more with me to work so I ended up taking 3 more before I got off. So then I come home somebody calls an ask me the difference between OC 80s (ones w/ OC and ones w/ 33 99) then I looked it up and found this site. Which ended up leading me to reading this thread. Now I'm wishing I could start fresh with the six that I had and go by the advice here, but back to square one.

I don't know what to do really, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Excuse my run together, fragmented sentence's i'm no english major.

suboxoneeater
01-15-2007, 12:52 AM
go to sleep, wake up, put 2mg in your mouth for an hour then swallow.

won't get any better.

DUi256
01-15-2007, 01:27 AM
well considering I don't have anymore subs then im SOL 'till I can get some more. Oh well learn from your mistakes.

oc80tn
02-16-2007, 08:52 AM
Pardon me if this is a stupid question, I just haven't been able to find a real clear-cut answer anywhere. Okay, here's the deal. SWIM was in WD yesterday and unable to get anything, so he got some suboxone from a friend. He took 16 milligrams of it and felt okay, but wasn't real happy with it. Here's the question, he has a pretty high tolerance on OC's (about 120-150mg a day). He hasn't taken anything since 2pm Thursday (yesterday). How long should SWIM wait before going back on OC or Hydro?
Thanks!

Opiyum
02-16-2007, 10:51 PM
24 hours will be more than enough. Especially if you only took one dose of Sub to begin with. Though thats just this dickholes opinion.

Dickhole.

renton
03-21-2007, 04:34 PM
Anyone know whats happening with bupe being available in canada? I'm dying to get on it since I dont like the idea of going on methadone since it seems to always become a permanant part of someone's life.

surdali124
03-30-2007, 09:34 PM
is snorting suboxone effective

madnesscult
04-01-2007, 08:25 PM
He wasn't asking what day is today literally. He wanted to know what you meant in the guide because it says something like "If you something something today you can start something something on Friday." Too sick to look it up but I'm assuming you can find it. So he's asking what day is today, in terms of your guide.

It should say the date created on top of every post. If you know that, just check a callendar. Sorry for causing confusion, but it just seemed the easiest way to explain things.

madnesscult
04-01-2007, 08:36 PM
okay i got a question for the people out there who have detoxed off subutex (are there any?) I know dorje managed to do it, so it can be done... Anyways- I've done a really rapid taper (12mg-1.5mg a day in 5 days) after a pretty strong OC habit and then stabilized sub dosing at 12mg/day for a few weeks. Do you think it's better to stabilize at .5-1mg for a few days before the jump-off, just keep halving doses until they're microscopic, or just jump off when I get to .5mgs/day? Like which would give me less discomfort? I'd like to think I have all the answers when it comes to subs, but I don't think I've made it this far before.

I almost managed it, but fucked up after being off of the subs for just over 2 weeks. Anyway, I found that doses under 0.25mg don't do anything except leave that nasty taste in your mouth. Which reminds me of another question, which might be an interesting poll for people on suboxone: what do you use to get the orange-sub-taste out of your mouth? I've found that coffee works best.

nosferatu123454321
05-03-2007, 06:42 PM
hmm, i like the taste of it because as soon as i taste that orange bliss, i know all is going to be well for the day:)

MissyAggravation
05-05-2007, 12:58 AM
is snorting suboxone effective

i also need a solid answer on this please. there seem to be many mixed feelings here on the board and googling it got me no concrete answers either.

i've used the opiophile search function multiple times in the past few days also in search of answers - but like i said whatever talk there is of it is usually nothing concrete.

i'm not interested in insufflating it to get high - i'm just wanting to see if insufflating would be an effective way to stretch out what i have.

so if someone could please offer their personal experiences with insufflating suboxone specifically i would be most grateful. :)

i honestly have been searching everywhere for the answers and i'm not just being lazy!

nosferatu123454321
05-05-2007, 10:34 AM
yes snorting is effective. most people on here say its twice as strong and i agree with them. if you're looking to get high by snorting it, there's really no point to do it whatsoever. but if for some reason you need to stretch out your supply, then its excellent. for example, the only time i snort mine is if for some reason i have to reschedule my doctor's appointment, and i don't have enough to last me until then, so instead of putting the full dose under my tongue, i can use only half insufflated, feel just as fine, and stretch out the remainder of my script twice as long. but other than that though, i usually take my dose the normal way....hope that helped

edit: also, i'm not sure how many different forms of suboxone there are, like generics and stuff, but the most i would ever snort is 4 mg, no more. because its kinda tricky snorting it and more than 4 mg would be too much powder, at least for the pills i get. and i'm sure i've read other people claim the same thing, so keep that in mind if you're wanting to do more than that. i would suggest no more than 4 mg up the nose, and the rest sublingually(if your dose is more)

MissyAggravation
05-05-2007, 02:49 PM
yes snorting is effective. most people on here say its twice as strong and i agree with them. if you're looking to get high by snorting it, there's really no point to do it whatsoever. but if for some reason you need to stretch out your supply, then its excellent. for example, the only time i snort mine is if for some reason i have to reschedule my doctor's appointment, and i don't have enough to last me until then, so instead of putting the full dose under my tongue, i can use only half insufflated, feel just as fine, and stretch out the remainder of my script twice as long. but other than that though, i usually take my dose the normal way....hope that helped

edit: also, i'm not sure how many different forms of suboxone there are, like generics and stuff, but the most i would ever snort is 4 mg, no more. because its kinda tricky snorting it and more than 4 mg would be too much powder, at least for the pills i get. and i'm sure i've read other people claim the same thing, so keep that in mind if you're wanting to do more than that. i would suggest no more than 4 mg up the nose, and the rest sublingually(if your dose is more)

thank you very much for your detailed reply.

as i had stated in my query i am not looking to insufflate to get high - merely to stretch out what i have as i am sharing my current suboxone script with my hubby until he sees his own sub doc on the 17th. so if i could get somewhat the same results in insufflating 2mgs as i would sublingually administering 8mg it would really help me stretch out what i have and that's all i'm aiming to do at this point.
once hubby sees his sub doc on the 17th and gets his own meds it won't be an issue and i'll be strictly sublingual as i should be in the first place.

and still - if anyone else has anything to add on the subject of insufflating suboxone - i would love to hear it. too much knowledge in this instance couldn't be a bad thing as far as i'm concerned.

nosferatu123454321
05-06-2007, 12:44 PM
thank you very much for your detailed reply.

ahh no problem...you tried it yet? if not, reply when you do and tell us if it worked all right for you. always interested to see how other people react

mdog23rs1981
06-03-2007, 06:07 PM
ahh no problem...you tried it yet? if not, reply when you do and tell us if it worked all right for you. always interested to see how other people react
im on 3and a half mgs of sub my last dose was 8pm last night if i inject a30 dollar bag today at 8pm or 9pm will i get nice

stross
06-12-2007, 11:41 AM
Some of this post scares me! A lot of people know what they are talking about, but there are others who need to be corrected. I'd check out the Suboxone FAQ over at TPC. Link is below...

http://www.thatspoppycock.com/addiction/suboxone.htm

Saint
07-19-2007, 05:27 AM
I have used heroine and methadone for over 23 years. The last 6 years I only used methadone: about 35 mgs daily (I am taking it for pain as well). For several reasons I want to switch to subs in a few months.
I have heard positive as well as negative stories about making the switch from methadone to subs but have hardly read any posts from longterm methadone users (using about 20+ years) who switched to subutex/one. Probably because there simply aren't that much around. So this forum seems like the best place to look for them..

So if you are one of them long-time-done-heads who actually swapped them for subs: what's your experience? From what dose did you jump? How painful was it? And did you consider it an improvement or not?
Btw: I read as many posts possible about this subject on this forum but can't seem to find many posts from longtime methadone-users who made the switch (succesfully). So I would really like to hear other peoples' stories before making the switch myself. I am also interested whether sub does anything for depression. Thanks in advance.

Hard way
07-19-2007, 08:33 AM
Lol - yeah duckfeet I know exactly what you mean, i mean im really happy I came across subs, and that I can get them so easily, whether u want to give up or not, the fact is I now have an easy way of managing my tolerance and therefore my addiction, there is nothing worse than being sick, and now I dont get sick anymore! And I dont have to start taking unaffordable amounts of H daily coz if my tolerance starts to get a bit too high, I just switch to subs for a while, I even come off completely for weeks, then get some good stuff and its like my 1st time all over again, the key here is management, if you can effectively manage your opiate use (and subs are a powerful tool to do such) then your addiction is not a problem.

Its been a major problem for me in the past, but thanks to easy access to subs and other stuff I can now confidently say that I am managing my habit, and for the first time in a long time I am actually enjoying my addiction!

I too am happy that I found Subs, I even wonder if I would of gone to the joint if I would have had a viable method to keep the sick off. It's been a year of being on opiates again after being clean for 5 years. I am really struggling with this sub roller coaster. I use for 3 or 4 days then go back on Subs. I have a good Job but the wife is out of work and those $100 treats could be better spent elsewhere. I really should get clean and give it a break as to be totally honest those clean years were really nice.

I have over thirty years of messing with this stuff an now with me being almost 50 it's kind of hard on the body. I dread switching back from stuff to subs because of the two or three days that you feel kinda shitty. I don't misss work and without the subs I would have lost my job for sure. I just really need to decide what road I am going to take and stay with it. I only have to look at the guys I send to cop to realize where this is going to lead. I have always prided my self on staying on top of my game. But H
doesn't give a dam who you think you are. Every time I run down to the Bronx to cop I put a lot on the line. It comes down to, is it really worth it ?? and deep down I know the the answer is NO!

Duckfeet
07-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Unfortunately for me, subs didn't seem to get rid of the cravings. They did do a good job of getting rid of other withdrawal symptoms, however, and I always think, if you are motivated, to give subs a good try. I did try them twice, but eventually, both times, ended up back on heroin. Good news--or bad news?--it that the tar "heroin," they have down here is so horrible on veins that I finally bit the bullet and got on methadone.

I think I realized that I was sort of person methadone was designed for: long-time heroin addict who had tried everything else. It made me go in with a better attiude than I had before, and so far, so good.

Anyway I just wanted to wish u best of luck with the subs, and also to tell u Welcome! to Opiophile, Hard way...



I too am happy that I found Subs, I even wonder if I would of gone to the joint if I would have had a viable method to keep the sick off. It's been a year of being on opiates again after being clean for 5 years. I am really struggling with this sub roller coaster. I use for 3 or 4 days then go back on Subs. I have a good Job but the wife is out of work and those $100 treats could be better spent elsewhere. I really should get clean and give it a break as to be totally honest those clean years were really nice.

I have over thirty years of messing with this stuff an now with me being almost 50 it's kind of hard on the body. I dread switching back from stuff to subs because of the two or three days that you feel kinda shitty. I don't misss work and without the subs I would have lost my job for sure. I just really need to decide what road I am going to take and stay with it. I only have to look at the guys I send to cop to realize where this is going to lead. I have always prided my self on staying on top of my game. But H
doesn't give a dam who you think you are. Every time I run down to the Bronx to cop I put a lot on the line. It comes down to, is it really worth it ?? and deep down I know the the answer is NO!

Woowoo
07-19-2007, 01:23 PM
Something has always confused me about bupe.

Everybody knows that if you take bupe when you are not yet in WDs (e.g. your last hit was just a few hours ago) then it will precipate WDs and you'll be hating life.

Also, everybody knows that if you're in full-blown WDs and you take some bupe, you'll feel a million times better.

So why can't you just "take it twice" and get out of WDs? The first dose will bring on the WDs, the next dose will chase them away. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm sorry if this sounds incredibly naive, my confusion is probably based on some stupidity or ignorance I have regarding bupe.

Duckfeet
07-19-2007, 01:36 PM
Right! Wondered something similar...and I also wondered, since there doesn't seem to be a lot on it, what u do if u *do* go into PW? Shoot up some smack, do another bupe, cry??? What? Always seems like I read don't so it, and it's something a *lot* of people try to get away with, and never hear what to do if u r in that category...

Gotta go!!!

Clinic calls...

Something has always confused me about bupe.

Everybody knows that if you take bupe when you are not yet in WDs (e.g. your last hit was just a few hours ago) then it will precipate WDs and you'll be hating life.

Also, everybody knows that if you're in full-blown WDs and you take some bupe, you'll feel a million times better.

So why can't you just "take it twice" and get out of WDs? The first dose will bring on the WDs, the next dose will chase them away. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm sorry if this sounds incredibly naive, my confusion is probably based on some stupidity or ignorance I have regarding bupe.

NastyZilla
07-19-2007, 05:49 PM
If this question and answer was buried in the pages of the thread and I missed it... well, my bad.

Here's the question:

Is there any correlation (and if so, how much) between the size of your habit and how much suboxone you will need to stop w/d symptoms?

Or is it that no matter how 'big' your habit, you never need more than, say, 8mg of sub to get rid of w/d symptoms for at least 24 hours?

Let's say that five years ago a person had a 100mg a day hydrocodone habit, and it took 8mg of subs to get the w/d symptoms to go away. Five years later, the person is using again, and now has a 200mg a day hydrocodone habit. Would it still take JUST 8mg of subs to get rid of the w/d symptoms, or would it take 16mg of subs, or something in between?

Just curious. I have a stagnant supply of old subs that refuses to (1) get any younger, and (2) breed like rabbits (or for you Trekkie fans, "Tribbles"), and I'm wondering how far they might stretch if needed.

Thanks in advance.

kazman32
08-19-2007, 11:27 AM
Even a small amount can help they less is more, and it's true, I can get a buzz going off enough but sometimes 2mg is enough judst to cut the craving and give me that ;'boost' first thing when I get up (god Im missing that now) it lasts long in your system too...dose 1 x2 times a day is plenty for me...vs perc or oxys every 3-4 hrs..

johnysmoke
09-18-2007, 05:45 PM
I am going to document my experience on Suboxone.
Today is day # 1 for me on Suboxone. For some strange reason I am Fucked up. I have a very very pleasent buzz going on from my first 16mg dose of suboxone. So far i love it. I always thought that you didn't get any kind of high from it at all. I was really nervous to go there this morning because i didnt really think it would work very well.

I have been taking 200mgs of morphine a day for the past 4 months and 8mgs of xanax a day along with 100mcg fentanyl, oc's, tab's and any other good pain med i could get my hands on for the past seven years. 10 or 11 years for the xanax. My tolerance is pretty high so i thought that there was no way in hell that just 2 of those crazy little pills would make me feel ok, but i swear i really do have a buzz off of just 16mgs.
I was also worried about the precipitated withdraw because i just did 200mgs of the phine and several hydros about 5 minutes before i called the doctors office for an appointment @ 4:30. When i called i thought that there was no way hell that i would get an appointment that fast. I had to be there at 8:00 this morning. That is only 15 hours or so.
But all went well. I didn't get sick or anything. I didn't get my dose until 2:30 and i still feel wonderful. I definitely didn't think that i would get any kind of buzz what so ever off of this stuff.
At the moment the only downfall i can find to this substance is the damn cost and this being on the medical record. I REALLY hate that part.
I will report back later

BLOODY
09-25-2007, 09:24 AM
first,DF.is right,if u get p/w ur DOC will get u out of it.when bupe came out in da 80's they tested public response in one city:munich,germany.there was a great doc then who gave done too shoot+u could do it in da waiting room.course junks from whole germany flocked to him+after2 court cases he was shut down,a pity.but i happend to live in M. at the time+while he was still in biz many patients switched to TEMGESIC,it was only a drug like codeine then,so no special scripts were needed+evry doc could prescribe it on reg. script.wit does temmies u could pop in rig,draw up warm water+iv.high dose done patients were satisfied wit 8-10 subl. tabs a day,transition phase for me(on200mg done iv) was 4 days befor i dared shootin them,i was high immediately(mebee dis helps sumone).WELL after doc was shut down bout 12 people went suicide+rest switched to DHC or TEMGESIC if no smack available,hard to get in M.witout priv.connect.i shot dem a while but like DF they NEVER were my DOC.still got 87original temgesic left in fridge,still in blister sheets wit a dessicant in a closed plastic baggie,anyone know how long dey keep?well,when cops noticed most faked scripts at that time were fo temgesic it got moved into da BTM scedule,wit means a lot of hassle fo docs too scribe,but is given along wit done by maint.docs as subutex.im really not interested in dis shit+have seen people on sub. w/d,didnt look happy,a friend could hardly walk.i keep my reserve as a last option.REALLY hope i could have helpd sumone,questions welcome,cause like i said i was in da city were they tested it in public for first time+esp. TEMG. when IVed can cause hard w/d.theres sumthin bout da high when usin more than week i just dont like,it has a ceiling effect,meaning over 0,8mg will not get u any higher,just potentiate side effects.less is DEF. mor wit this weird drug.H_MAINTENANCE FOR ALL WHO NEED IT;BASTA!!!!!!

BLOODY
09-25-2007, 09:56 AM
P.S.theyr introducing suboxone now too,i wouldnt touch dat shit!!!! wit a ten foot pole,i mean bupe suxs anyway xept if u really wanna quit or got no other option.i'd prefer DHC or even codein over suboxone,but i am on 800mg M. so no reason too complain.anyone have? on bupe ask me,glad to help.happen to know a lot bout dat crap,evenhad a long talk wit "boehringer/mannheim"da pharm comp. producing it.their chemist told me ALOT until after 1.5hours est. he figured out i actually was no doctor+really got pissed so i hung up.recalling that makes me laugh,but seriously,ask me if u got?

Inspektahdek
10-08-2007, 10:34 AM
P.S.theyr introducing suboxone now too,i wouldnt touch dat shit!!!! wit a ten foot pole,i mean bupe suxs anyway xept if u really wanna quit or got no other option.i'd prefer DHC or even codein over suboxone,but i am on 800mg M. so no reason too complain.anyone have? on bupe ask me,glad to help.happen to know a lot bout dat crap,evenhad a long talk wit "boehringer/mannheim"da pharm comp. producing it.their chemist told me ALOT until after 1.5hours est. he figured out i actually was no doctor+really got pissed so i hung up.recalling that makes me laugh,but seriously,ask me if u got?


hey mann are u living in mannheim now?

Saint
10-08-2007, 12:31 PM
Last month they took subutex off the market here in Holland. They will ONLY give subuxONE. So I'm on subuxone now against my will. I tried it but it's my 6th week on subs now (after 24 years on methadone) and I still feel like crap.
I didn't feel good during the first weeks on subutex but ever since I'm on subuxone I feel far worse! How's that possible? The naloxone shouldn't 'do' anything if taken orally? But I have a splitting headache which I didn't have on the TEX and my IBS is getting worse and worse (bloated stomach, nervepain). It feels like the subuxone really IS different from the subutex. So, I asked to get subuTEX again but they simply took it off the market everywhere in Holland and told me to go back on methadone if I don't adjust... great.

Duckfeet
10-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Sorry to hear that, and I'm really surprised, since they usually have subutex available for those who *do* have side effects from the naloxone. I would read up on it, as it sounds like that is what is happening, and make sure it's not available, as it's a recognized necesary medicine, and even recommended for certain periods and types of detoxes. I myself am not tempted to IV it at all, as it does nothing anyway...

Best of luck to you Saint, and hopefully if this is the case, you'll eventually get used to suboxone...I'm hoping to switch back over when I get down to 30mg methadone daily, and will be going thru the same thing u did, as this time I won't have the week long buffer of oxycodone, that the expensive private clinics out here use.

I'm hoping however, that if I get back on subutex, that then I can take a few weeks supply, and fly to a country where can look into heroin maintenance....best wishes....



Last month they took subutex off the market here in Holland. They will ONLY give subuxONE. So I'm on subuxone now against my will. I tried it but it's my 6th week on subs now (after 24 years on methadone) and I still feel like crap.
I didn't feel good during the first weeks on subutex but ever since I'm on subuxone I feel far worse! How's that possible? The naloxone shouldn't 'do' anything if taken orally? But I have a splitting headache which I didn't have on the TEX and my IBS is getting worse and worse (bloated stomach, nervepain). It feels like the subuxone really IS different from the subutex. So, I asked to get subuTEX again but they simply took it off the market everywhere in Holland and told me to go back on methadone if I don't adjust... great.

Saint
10-08-2007, 03:31 PM
As always it has something to do with money. Because subutex has supposedly more 'abuse-potential' than subuxone (don't ask me why: methadone has far more abuse-potential in my opinion..) doctors and government here are generally in favour of prescribing the subuxone instead of subutex. So the distributor took it off the market because there weren't enough orders made. So there simply wasn't enough money in it...
I've already read stories of several people who got into trouble because of a forged switch from subutex to subuxone. Some of them went back to methadon which is easily obtainable here, others just started to use dope again... which seems like the exact opposite of what a treatment with subs is meant to do. I made some calls and sent some emails asking if there is anything I can do about it but I guess I'm a nobody as far as they're concerned.
My pharmacist tried to order the ingredient (buprenorfine) so he could prepare the 8 mg tablets himself but he couldn't get his hands on it. They wouldn't deliver. So I'm stuck and hopefully things will change for the better soon.
(btw: I hope you're doing o.k. DF, with your taper and all. I haven't been around a lot lately... felt so bad that I couldn't even go to work the past few days. But will be here more if things get better)

chopstix
10-10-2007, 10:00 PM
I can relate. Feel like shit lately too. Whole world is crumpling around me, the only thing that's kept me afloat is a generous check that someone wrote me for medical issues that I went and stupidly blew most of on shit heroin and now I don't have to money to fill the scripts to maintain the appearance that I'm actually taking the my bup as prescribed. This sucks. Works pays but I'm too miserable to work most of the time and my laptop literally just started smoking from the charging port. Not. Good.

I just handed a "disguised" bottle of roxis back to my girlfriend and told her to please make a better effort at keeping them out of my face, they've literally been within 12" of me most days and she not only gets them for next to nothing, but doesn't like them because she doesn't like the way they make her feel. This is someone who used to spend $3-500 a day on dope and coke..

I hate this week, I hate this month, I hate this year and I hated last year too. I'm this ---> | | <---- close to packing my shit and getting the fuck out of this town and its bullshit housing and this bullshit mexican chiva. I was happier living alone in the Wasatch.

Headlines today, median home price is now just over $700,000 here. That's encouraging, huh??

Somanax
10-10-2007, 10:15 PM
I can relate. Feel like shit lately too. Whole world is crumpling around me, the only thing that's kept me afloat is a generous check that someone wrote me for medical issues that I went and stupidly blew most of on shit heroin and now I don't have to money to fill the scripts to maintain the appearance that I'm actually taking the my bup as prescribed. This sucks. Works pays but I'm too miserable to work most of the time and my laptop literally just started smoking from the charging port. Not. Good.

I just handed a "disguised" bottle of roxis back to my girlfriend and told her to please make a better effort at keeping them out of my face, they've literally been within 12" of me most days and she not only gets them for next to nothing, but doesn't like them because she doesn't like the way they make her feel. This is someone who used to spend $3-500 a day on dope and coke..

I hate this week, I hate this month, I hate this year and I hated last year too. I'm this ---> | | <---- close to packing my shit and getting the fuck out of this town and its bullshit housing and this bullshit mexican chiva. I was happier living alone in the Wasatch.

Headlines today, median home price is now just over $700,000 here. That's encouraging, huh??


Head east bro,

skiing not so great

Dope and price ;)

chopstix
10-10-2007, 11:07 PM
Head east bro,

skiing not so great

Dope and price ;)

In what may very well be the last post from a dying laptop, I leave you with an offer to bring Smojo and a couple bundles out to South Lake Tahoe this winter, get yourself a room and I'll play tour guide. I can't leave the West Coast, not for heroin; at least not yet and as long as I have knees brother ;) Some things are just too important..

Kirkwood, CA 2004 - Not me but I'll play :)

nosferatu123454321
10-11-2007, 01:35 AM
Last month they took subutex off the market here in Holland. They will ONLY give subuxONE. So I'm on subuxone now against my will. I tried it but it's my 6th week on subs now (after 24 years on methadone) and I still feel like crap.
I didn't feel good during the first weeks on subutex but ever since I'm on subuxone I feel far worse! How's that possible? The naloxone shouldn't 'do' anything if taken orally? But I have a splitting headache which I didn't have on the TEX and my IBS is getting worse and worse (bloated stomach, nervepain). It feels like the subuxone really IS different from the subutex. So, I asked to get subuTEX again but they simply took it off the market everywhere in Holland and told me to go back on methadone if I don't adjust... great.

i have no idea how that's possible b/c if you are taking it as prescribed, sublingually, than the naloxone doesn't even absorb into the bloodstream. So, all you are getting into your system is buprenorphine, whether it is subutex or subuxone. If you are not taking it as prescribed, than try doing it the way you're supposed to, under the tongue. If you are taking it as prescribed than maybe it's all in your head......hey, it's possible. But not probable, when it comes to buprenorphine at least, b/c everyone reacts differently to it, more so than any other drug i know of. subs are a godsend for some people and for others, it just doesn't work that well. But don't let this get your hopes down. Stick with it! As long as you can hold on. Because methadone is just horrible. worst thing I ever got hooked on. If you actually want a chance at getting off opiates completely, than stick with the subs...If you just want to be legally doped up everyday for the rest of your life, than go with the methadone, go to the clinic every single morning, it's your life. And that is what you have to remember: It's your life. No one or nothing elses. (kinda cliche huh?) Anyway, good luck to you, hope things work out

chopstix
10-11-2007, 08:46 AM
Last month they took subutex off the market here in Holland. They will ONLY give subuxONE. So I'm on subuxone now against my will. I tried it but it's my 6th week on subs now (after 24 years on methadone) and I still feel like crap.
I didn't feel good during the first weeks on subutex but ever since I'm on subuxone I feel far worse! How's that possible? The naloxone shouldn't 'do' anything if taken orally? But I have a splitting headache which I didn't have on the TEX and my IBS is getting worse and worse (bloated stomach, nervepain). It feels like the subuxone really IS different from the subutex. So, I asked to get subuTEX again but they simply took it off the market everywhere in Holland and told me to go back on methadone if I don't adjust... great.

I noticed immediately what seemed to be difference with subutex. It seemed stronger to me than the suboxone I used before. I never said anything 'cause I thought it was in my head. I, so far, have yet to get a headache from suboxone but I'm about to crack a bottle of 15x8mg so I'll be comparing again soon.

Hope ya feel better Saint..

Azrael
10-11-2007, 10:22 AM
yeah dude spit out the spit after the shits dissolved...don't swallow it, the headaches should subside. that fucking sucks about the subutex though, a lot more people are intolerant to naloxone than I think the decision-makers realize, so taking it off the market is just giving a giant middle finger to all the people who had success with subutex (the majority). lame.

Inspektahdek
10-11-2007, 10:33 AM
Last month they took subutex off the market here in Holland. They will ONLY give subuxONE. So I'm on subuxone now against my will. I tried it but it's my 6th week on subs now (after 24 years on methadone) and I still feel like crap.
I didn't feel good during the first weeks on subutex but ever since I'm on subuxone I feel far worse! How's that possible? The naloxone shouldn't 'do' anything if taken orally? But I have a splitting headache which I didn't have on the TEX and my IBS is getting worse and worse (bloated stomach, nervepain). It feels like the subuxone really IS different from the subutex. So, I asked to get subuTEX again but they simply took it off the market everywhere in Holland and told me to go back on methadone if I don't adjust... great.


where u live in holland, I used to spend alot of time in the rotterdam area, peace

Duckfeet
10-11-2007, 10:49 AM
And now they've got heroin maint, for select few, I'd be moving heaven and earth, if I were living there...but of course, like Canada, they make sure to have all kinds of clauses restricting it to locals, or they fear junkies from all over would be piling in there. Which pisses me off, but of course, it's probably true, and Amsterdam, like the U.S. is magnet enough for illegal immigrants...




where u live in holland, I used to spend alot of time in the rotterdam area, peace

Saint
10-12-2007, 11:38 AM
i have no idea how that's possible b/c if you are taking it as prescribed, sublingually, than the naloxone doesn't even absorb into the bloodstream. So, all you are getting into your system is buprenorphine, whether it is subutex or subuxone. If you are not taking it as prescribed, than try doing it the way you're supposed to, under the tongue. If you are taking it as prescribed than maybe it's all in your head......hey, it's possible. But not probable, when it comes to buprenorphine at least, b/c everyone reacts differently to it, more so than any other drug i know of. subs are a godsend for some people and for others, it just doesn't work that well. But don't let this get your hopes down. Stick with it! As long as you can hold on. Because methadone is just horrible. worst thing I ever got hooked on. If you actually want a chance at getting off opiates completely, than stick with the subs...If you just want to be legally doped up everyday for the rest of your life, than go with the methadone, go to the clinic every single morning, it's your life. And that is what you have to remember: It's your life. No one or nothing elses. (kinda cliche huh?) Anyway, good luck to you, hope things work out

Well, as I said in another thread, I'm not sure if it's the subuxone that causes this shit but it's most definitely not in my head. I do take my subs as prescribed (SL and I spit after 15 to 20 minutes). But I DO know that I've also had horrible problems when I tried to come off methadone before (without subs and with a slow taper). I had severe muscle-aches for months, PDS, tingling legs and headaches too. I have been off methadone, completely clean about four or five times, once for 8 months but still felt horrible. I lost my job over it once because I refused to go back to methadone after being completely clean for months. But I gave in after one year because I couldn't stand the pain anymore. And I'm really not a pussy when it comes to pain.

Maybe I have been on that crap too long (24 years). Maybe it fucked up something in my nervous system and/or my body has a hard time adjusting to either nothing or to subs.
The problem is that I simply don't know what causes it. I have seen a few specialists and they could tell that my bowel was not working normally (on 0 drugs) and that other things weren't functioning as supposed to but nothing was actually found in my blood.
Some people say it's fybromyalgia, but as far as I know that's another one of those 'vague diseases' with no cure anyway. And I never really trust that kind of stuff. So I'm going to try to stick to subs for a while longer.

There is a limit though since I've already lost about 4 years of my life feeling completely miserable after other attempts to come off methadone. There is a point where my quality of life is more important than having the stigma of being a methadone-user.

I haven't used any 'illegal drugs' in 8 years by the way and have no mental or financial problems so I haven't got a clue what the fuck is causing this but I might as well try to go back to subutex (if possible) and see what happens. Give it some more time - again..
I'm on 10 to 12 mgs subuxone now.
Another thing: I always got my methadone prescribed by my own doctor - on a monthly basis (they do that here if you 'have proven yourself to be responsible' & lead a 'normal' life: i.e. no legal problems, normal house, job, familycontacts and all that blabla). So no clinic-problems for me anyway.

Inspektahdek
10-12-2007, 03:11 PM
And now they've got heroin maint, for select few, I'd be moving heaven and earth, if I were living there...but of course, like Canada, they make sure to have all kinds of clauses restricting it to locals, or they fear junkies from all over would be piling in there. Which pisses me off, but of course, it's probably true, and Amsterdam, like the U.S. is magnet enough for illegal immigrants...


yea there is alot of immigrants when I was last there 2005



argh was, damn w/d

nosferatu123454321
10-13-2007, 05:03 AM
Well, as I said in another thread, I'm not sure if it's the subuxone that causes this shit but it's most definitely not in my head. I do take my subs as prescribed (SL and I spit after 15 to 20 minutes). But I DO know that I've also had horrible problems when I tried to come off methadone before (without subs and with a slow taper). I had severe muscle-aches for months, PDS, tingling legs and headaches too. I have been off methadone, completely clean about four or five times, once for 8 months but still felt horrible. I lost my job over it once because I refused to go back to methadone after being completely clean for months. But I gave in after one year because I couldn't stand the pain anymore. And I'm really not a pussy when it comes to pain.

hmm...so you still had pains months after you came off of methadone? maybe there is an actual physical problem. have you ever been diagnosed with any kind of chronic pain or anything like that? cause i don't think subs really help a whole lot when it comes to actual physical pain. It works great for the physical pains that occur from opiate withdrawals but when it comes to any kind of chronic pain i don't think it helps much. but i'm not entirely sure about that b/c i don't have any kind of chronic pain myself, i've only heard from other people who do.

so when you were clean for that 8 months did you go through the methadone withdrawals at first and then after the w/d's subsided you still had some pains, but were the pains different than the actual withdrawals?



There is a point where my quality of life is more important than having the stigma of being a methadone-user.

that's exactly why i asked the previous question above, because if there is something else that is causing those pains than subs obviously aren't working for you and you need to focus on some kind of pain management that will actually help


I haven't used any 'illegal drugs' in 8 years by the way and have no mental or financial problems so I haven't got a clue what the fuck is causing this but I might as well try to go back to subutex (if possible) and see what happens. Give it some more time - again..
I'm on 10 to 12 mgs subuxone now.

Subs react differently to everyone....have you tried lowering your dosage down? Because sometimes taking too many mg's of subs can actually make you feel worse than taking a lower dosage...there's a saying that nearly every sub user on this forum agrees with: "With subs, less is more." So I would suggest you try dropping your dosage. Start at 4mg(yes, that low) and if you don't feel better in 20 minutes do another 2mgs. Wait 20 minutes, if you still don't feel any better than how you feel when you are taking 12mgs than just keep increasing in increments of 2mgs. And wait twenty minutes after each time you do another 2mgs. Even if you tried doing that the first time you started the subs, you should try it again now. Why? Because high doses of subs are usually only necessary for the first few days or maybe a week, depending on what kind of opiate you were addicted to. If it was short acting opiates you should be fine dropping your dosage after a few days but longer acting opiates(like 'dones) have a longer half life so obviously you would want to wait longer b4 dropping your dose. A lot of people say the sooner you start dropping your dose down the better, b/c the longer you stay at a high dose the harder it's going to be to taper.

The first day i started buprenorphine treatment they gave me suboxone, which kinda surprised me b/c a lot of clinics/docs start you off on 'utex then switch you to 'oxone, but anyway, the first day i did that 2mg increment thing and the withdrawals didn't go away until i hit 8mgs; i stayed on that dose for like a week and half to two weeks and then i started to feel kinda shitty. not really pain but my body was in a state of moderate discomfort. when i decided to drop my dose i cut it in half and went down to 4mgs which made me feel better. after another week i dropped down to 2mg with no trouble at all, and that's what i'm currently at right now. I've talked to two different people who had similar problems. Both kept taking the same high dose they started off on and eventually started having headaches and other discomforts and when they did drop their dosage down the headaches and whatnot subsided.

BUT, of course, subs are just down right tricky b/c it affects everyone differently.

Also, how long have you been on subs?


Another thing: I always got my methadone prescribed by my own doctor - on a monthly basis (they do that here if you 'have proven yourself to be responsible' & lead a 'normal' life: i.e. no legal problems, normal house, job, familycontacts and all that blabla). So no clinic-problems for me anyway.

Sorry if, in my previous post, i sounded like i was bashing on people who are on 'done treatment b/c that's not how i was trying to come across at all. What I meant was that sub treatment is more for people who haven't been addicted for an extremely long time and also want to get off opiates completely. But the long-term addicts, like ones who have been addicted to heroin for decades or longer, methadone maintenance might be their only solution. It just really boggles my mind when i hear someone talk about how they started methadone maintenance b/c they were addicted to hydrocodone. Now i'm not going to tell them what to do; it's their life not mine. But I just don't understand why one would do that.

Duckfeet
10-13-2007, 11:41 AM
This was a good post, nosferatu, and I agree with a lot of it...I think anybody contemplating going on subs, should set up a file, and put all useful info in there, and do lots of research on subs, particularly..as doctors just do *not* seem to understand it very well...

And, as you posted, and contrary to many other people, with subs, *often*, for some damn reason, *less* works better than more...but since that goes against just about all junky logic...people won't try *less* unless they have to...just like IVing subs or methadone...no matter how many people tell us it doesn't work, we just *have* to try it...

Anway, I just wanted to say that, that a lot of your posts are really informative and well thought out, and I'd recommend them to anybody considering going on subs...



hmm...so you still had pains months after you came off of methadone? maybe there is an actual physical problem. have you ever been diagnosed with any kind of chronic pain or anything like that? cause i don't think subs really help a whole lot when it comes to actual physical pain. It works great for the physical pains that occur from opiate withdrawals but when it comes to any kind of chronic pain i don't think it helps much. but i'm not entirely sure about that b/c i don't have any kind of chronic pain myself, i've only heard from other people who do.

so when you were clean for that 8 months did you go through the methadone withdrawals at first and then after the w/d's subsided you still had some pains, but were the pains different than the actual withdrawals?




that's exactly why i asked the previous question above, because if there is something else that is causing those pains than subs obviously aren't working for you and you need to focus on some kind of pain management that will actually help



Subs react differently to everyone....have you tried lowering your dosage down? Because sometimes taking too many mg's of subs can actually make you feel worse than taking a lower dosage...there's a saying that nearly every sub user on this forum agrees with: "With subs, less is more." So I would suggest you try dropping your dosage. Start at 4mg(yes, that low) and if you don't feel better in 20 minutes do another 2mgs. Wait 20 minutes, if you still don't feel any better than how you feel when you are taking 12mgs than just keep increasing in increments of 2mgs. And wait twenty minutes after each time you do another 2mgs. Even if you tried doing that the first time you started the subs, you should try it again now. Why? Because high doses of subs are usually only necessary for the first few days or maybe a week, depending on what kind of opiate you were addicted to. If it was short acting opiates you should be fine dropping your dosage after a few days but longer acting opiates(like 'dones) have a longer half life so obviously you would want to wait longer b4 dropping your dose. A lot of people say the sooner you start dropping your dose down the better, b/c the longer you stay at a high dose the harder it's going to be to taper.

The first day i started buprenorphine treatment they gave me suboxone, which kinda surprised me b/c a lot of clinics/docs start you off on 'utex then switch you to 'oxone, but anyway, the first day i did that 2mg increment thing and the withdrawals didn't go away until i hit 8mgs; i stayed on that dose for like a week and half to two weeks and then i started to feel kinda shitty. not really pain but my body was in a state of moderate discomfort. when i decided to drop my dose i cut it in half and went down to 4mgs which made me feel better. after another week i dropped down to 2mg with no trouble at all, and that's what i'm currently at right now. I've talked to two different people who had similar problems. Both kept taking the same high dose they started off on and eventually started having headaches and other discomforts and when they did drop their dosage down the headaches and whatnot subsided.

BUT, of course, subs are just down right tricky b/c it affects everyone differently.

Also, how long have you been on subs?



Sorry if, in my previous post, i sounded like i was bashing on people who are on 'done treatment b/c that's not how i was trying to come across at all. What I meant was that sub treatment is more for people who haven't been addicted for an extremely long time and also want to get off opiates completely. But the long-term addicts, like ones who have been addicted to heroin for decades or longer, methadone maintenance might be their only solution. It just really boggles my mind when i hear someone talk about how they started methadone maintenance b/c they were addicted to hydrocodone. Now i'm not going to tell them what to do; it's their life not mine. But I just don't understand why one would do that.

Saint
10-13-2007, 12:10 PM
Thanks for taking the trouble to write such an extensive post. I didn't think you were bashing methadone and you're absolutely right that they should not put any shortterm users (with a moderate addiction) on methadone! I wish they hadn't put me on it when I was 15 but it's no use thinking about that now. Unfortunately subs didn't exist back then. At the time subs would have worked for me, I'm sure.

I have been on both heroine AND methadone for 16 years and after that 'only' on methadone for 8 years. Which makes it a total of a 24 year addiction.
I am on subs for 6 weeks now and have tried a high dose (24 mgs) as well as a low dose (2 to 8 mgs) and both didn't make much difference, especially as far as pain is concerned. I jumped from 24 to 10 mgs without feeling any difference, just felt equally awful on both.

After 2 weeks the real wd-symptoms like no sleep and sweating, tearing & sneezing subsided bit but the nerve-and muscle-pain became even worse during the 4 weeks after that.
According to the addiction-specialist I'm seeing some addictions are irreversible (nervous system ''broke down'' or something like that - which makes your body send pain-signals although it's not supposed to do that) but I refused to believe that (and he's getting tired of me after trying to come off methadone for numerous times :-).

I'm trying hard not to give up. However, I just can't stand the pain anymore. And it fucks up my life (and has done so in the past). I want to work, live, travel, damn it.
It's some weird shit. Over the past eight years 35 mgs of methadone would practically get rid of the pain (so yes: I had problems on methadone as well but soooo much less, I was able to function and exercise etc.).
Well, I won't bore you any longer with all the bitching because it's all in another thread already ('24 years on methadone now on subs') but there is something going on, I just don't know what the fuck it is...

(btw: my regular physician recognizes the chronic pain-issue but she assumed that subs would deal with pain just as well as methadone. But what I would really like to know is what the hell is causing the pain)

Duckfeet
10-13-2007, 07:41 PM
Saint: Please don't be so hard on yourself. You're just trying to function in this world and be reasonably happy and painfree as you can...if subs don't work, there's no moral function here at all. Maybe you are better off on methadone. Subs certainly don't work for everyone...and when it comes to pain...and even craving, I think methadone is better. It sounds like you have been going thru a lot of hell, and I hope that if this doesn't work, you hope back on methadone. I wish there were a third option avaiable to you. And for me, too, as far as that goes...but if there isn't, I don't really care what other people think. I can bitch all day long about it, and still stay on methadone, and fuck people who don't like it...

Just wanted you to know I'm in your corner. As badly as I wanted off methadone, I had to face the fact that subs increased both pain and craving. I don't know what I, or you, will do, but I wish you all the best in a terrible and unjust system. When there there are good opiates available it's a crying shame to have to choose between "lesser of two evils..."

It just seems like you've really been hurting on this honey, and maybe you'd be better getting back on methadone?



Thanks for taking the trouble to write such an extensive post. I didn't think you were bashing methadone and you're absolutely right that they should not put any shortterm users (with a moderate addiction) on methadone! I wish they hadn't put me on it when I was 15 but it's no use thinking about that now. Unfortunately subs didn't exist back then. At the time subs would have worked for me, I'm sure.

I have been on both heroine AND methadone for 16 years and after that 'only' on methadone for 8 years. Which makes it a total of a 24 year addiction.
I am on subs for 6 weeks now and have tried a high dose (24 mgs) as well as a low dose (2 to 8 mgs) and both didn't make much difference, especially as far as pain is concerned. I jumped from 24 to 10 mgs without feeling any difference, just felt equally awful on both.

After 2 weeks the real wd-symptoms like no sleep and sweating, tearing & sneezing subsided bit but the nerve-and muscle-pain became even worse during the 4 weeks after that.
According to the addiction-specialist I'm seeing some addictions are irreversible (nervous system ''broke down'' or something like that - which makes your body send pain-signals although it's not supposed to do that) but I refused to believe that (and he's getting tired of me after trying to come off methadone for numerous times :-).

I'm trying hard not to give up. However, I just can't stand the pain anymore. And it fucks up my life (and has done so in the past). I want to work, live, travel, damn it.
It's some weird shit. Over the past eight years 35 mgs of methadone would practically get rid of the pain (so yes: I had problems on methadone as well but soooo much less, I was able to function and exercise etc.).
Well, I won't bore you any longer with all the bitching because it's all in another thread already ('24 years on methadone now on subs') but there is something going on, I just don't know what the fuck it is...

(btw: my regular physician recognizes the chronic pain-issue but she assumed that subs would deal with pain just as well as methadone. But what I would really like to know is what the hell is causing the pain)

Saint
10-14-2007, 10:07 AM
Well, this is weird. Last night I made my decision: I will go back on methadone and it will probably be for life. I'm so very frustrated about this but I really don't see another way out of this misery..
So coming here and watching your post was a real comfort to me as I have been so sad and hurting all night about it and still am.
But I'm about to loose my job about this and see no other option. Travelling is impossible anyway when I'm feeling like this..
Sorry - I've got company so have to keep it short but I'll post later this week... :-(

chopstix
10-14-2007, 12:23 PM
Well, this is weird. Last night I made my decision: I will go back on methadone and it will probably be for life. I'm so very frustrated about this but I really don't see another way out of this misery..
So coming here and watching your post was a real comfort to me as I have been so sad and hurting all night about it and still am.
But I'm about to loose my job about this and see no other option. Travelling is impossible anyway when I'm feeling like this.
Sorry - I've got company so have to keep it short but I'll post later this week... :-(

I'm relieved to hear that you're gonna put the misery behind you. I really thought it was a longshot from the beginning but I had hopes that you'd give it 6 months, I don't blame you though. If it's not working then it's not working and I totally hear you on quality of life; that's where my struggle lies although the circumstances are different.

You gave it a shot, do what you need to do. Maybe a year or two on a really low dose and another attempt down the road? After 24 years, there's probably not much rush aside from the travel restrictions you deal with.

Good luck and hope you feel better soon..

Duckfeet
10-14-2007, 01:49 PM
Well, I'm off to my noon AA meeting...just did my 45mg of m'done, and CWE'ed the last 14 hydros, for no good reason other than my permanent junky "needs."

Anway, Saint, I really appreciate that you did what you said, and documented this for us. Writing it down may not have helped you, but it certainly made me feel not so alone, and also made me realize just how hard we are on ourselves, so I hope u are having a really good sunday, and that you get a little relief, and that if methadone is in your--or my--cards, that we make the best of it, and that I learn to show the grace under pressure, that you have shown on here...

All the best...

df



Well, this is weird. Last night I made my decision: I will go back on methadone and it will probably be for life. I'm so very frustrated about this but I really don't see another way out of this misery..
So coming here and watching your post was a real comfort to me as I have been so sad and hurting all night about it and still am.
But I'm about to loose my job about this and see no other option. Travelling is impossible anyway when I'm feeling like this..
Sorry - I've got company so have to keep it short but I'll post later this week... :-(

OCfenatiq
10-20-2007, 11:03 PM
I know this has been said before but thanks a lot to all who contributed to this thread, especially madnesscult and tm420tm. I think you guys started this one a long time ago but it still has good info and has some stuff I wished I knew before my visit with the sub doc... And I put this I think in another thread but (for me anyways) I didn't think subs were gonna work until about day 4 so don't give in before that, just fight it out if you still feel bad or like its not working the first several days and it will come... Glad I did (and seriously wanted to go straight back to the methadone clinic on like day 3 all day) subs do work and I have very little experience I know, but I think its possible that most posts out there about subs not working, they just didn't give it enough time to work for them (although there are certainly exceptions). I could be way off here but for me even methadone took several days to start helping the very first time I tried em and subs did as well. Anyway, thanks again for all the time that went to this thread...

Saint
10-22-2007, 08:50 AM
I guess it's different for everybody. I gave it almost 10 weeks and still felt sick, no matter how much I took, high dose, low dose, didn't make any difference. But I am pretty sure that the cause lies elsewhere.
It could be possible that I'm one of the few people who's body doesn't adjust to subs after 24 years on methadone but now that I'm back on methadone (20 mgs) I'm still not feeling completely better. (I do have less pain though). So I'll go to the hospital for a check-up.
However, I'm still convinced that subs work for most people. I'm sure they would have worked 20 years ago when I was a relatively shortterm addict. So I'd certainly recommend subs to anyone trying to come off heroine.

Black_Pony
10-22-2007, 09:56 AM
I just wanted to say thank you to madnesscult and TM and everyone else who contributed to this thread. It helped me immensly (I read the whole thing) back when i first got on subs.

Subs did work for me until I relapsed after getting down to less than 4 mg a day. Now I'm giving them a chance to work again. Goddamn the first few days are uncomfortable, though. I just tell myself its ALOT better tha real WDs, which it is.

I have $9 to my name until wednesday and I'm halfway ready to go cop a 9-sack. But then again that is rediculous and I would waste all my gas and not be able to go to work tomorrow.

collegekid
12-02-2007, 03:47 PM
I've been on buprenorphine for the past 12 months. I started at 24mg, then got to 16mg a month later, down to 8mg by month 3. I sustained on 8mg for about 4 months. For the past 4 months I have been decreasing my dosage gradually. I am currently down to about 2-3mg/day (RXed 4mg/day) in an effort to set aside some pillls for the inevitable.

During the induction and maintenance periods, I thought that there couldn't possibly be a better drug than buprenorphine! No clinics, no hassle, just a 30 day prescription. Little did I know that the cravings come back in full force once you are only taking just enough buprenorphine to get by.

When I first began bupe, taking far more than necessary, I took about 2 or 3 "holidays" from the drug and went back to my DOC, oxycodone. It would take a full 72 hours, if not a little more, in order to get a nice buzz. This, IMO, was an enormous deterrent from relapsing. Even the most hardcore junky really has to plans things out to the T if they want to get high on their DOC again. After a few shots at it, I gave up. I mean really... I got on the bupe in the first place to try and get clean... why not stay that way?

Well... nowadays I am insufflating the buprenorphine. I have found that this MOA is more effective when you don't have a significant amount of powder. 1mg in the morning, and 1mg in the evening. Be it the MOA or the smaller amounts of the drug in my system, it takes me less than 24 hours now to begin to feel my DOC. I find myself abstaining from the bupe for 24 horus... then I'll usually scoop up 15 hydros as a buffer for the 24 to 48hr period, then jump back on the oxycodone for a break.

This has been causing me a great deal of stress lately. My bank account has suffered more than it has in years. My friends and family have noticed a marked change in my behavior. Im basically back to my old tricks. I have been clean from my DOC for 2 weeks now and am keeping a positive outlook.... but the other night I stole a handful of Norcos from my girlfriend without evening thinking about it. As expected, she counted them and confronted me about it. I really had no excuses?

From what I have been reading a lot of you guys are taking a decent amount of bupe? Does anyone have any suggestions for when things get tough?

Duckfeet
12-02-2007, 04:00 PM
Can't really help u on this one...I had read some of the longtimers--relative term--on bupe, over on heroin-detox.com...and I was convinced, by this, and my own experience, that going *higher* didn't solve any problems, nor--for me--did doing the whole "sober lifestyle" thing....they never worked too good, and I didn't like it, but once heroin raised it's head again (along w/viks, perks, and finally oxys) I knew that I'd have to try something else, and I finally tried comitting to methadone maint, without fighting it...but, typical, once I got up to a reasonable blocking dose of mdone--100mg daily--constipation, and inability to sit without going to sleep, and general malaise sent me running back down on mdone too...now at 50mg daily, doing periodic viks perks and oxys, which I *don't feel...well, maybe the oxys, but if I have to slam seven 40's and then look in the mirror to see if I'm "happy" then they don't do much...

So I hear you, and maybe someone else'll have better, more optimistic take on this...where's Mikell, he does good on the fuckers....


...and I actually see Madness Cult, once in a while, and tell her she's missed....she'll be back up, onna these days...

collegekid
12-02-2007, 04:22 PM
I cannot say that I enjoyed being at higher doses of buprenorphine. Oddly enough, the drug would constipate me horribly. I would be able to use the bathroom once every 4 days if I was lucky.

I feel physically healthier on the lower bupe dose. I feel clearer mentally as well.

But Ill be damned if I don't find myself thinking about getting high 25/8.

Duckfeet
12-02-2007, 05:02 PM
Exactly. Seems like closest thing to normal was 2-4mg daily, but yeah, craving was there...and since I got prescribed subutex, I would occasionally just *have* to fix them, which did nothing...I mean, I didn't get sick, but no noticable difference...and constipation was as bad as methadone, which was a constant remeinder that I *was* doing an opiate....




I cannot say that I enjoyed being at higher doses of buprenorphine. Oddly enough, the drug would constipate me horribly. I would be able to use the bathroom once every 4 days if I was lucky.

I feel physically healthier on the lower bupe dose. I feel clearer mentally as well.

But Ill be damned if I don't find myself thinking about getting high 25/8.

MPVT
12-03-2007, 07:33 AM
You have to remeber that buprenorphene although strong is a partial antagonist just like Talwin.The saying with buprenorphene is "less is more and more means withdrawls".Any partial agonist will put you into withdrawls or make you feel shitty if you take enough.The average daily dose of buprenorphene is 8-12 mgs and most addicts feel pretty good at those doses.Going over 32mgs will almost certainly put you into precipatated withdrawls although most people suffer from them at even lower doses.So no sense in trying to get high of buprenorphene, it just isn't going to happen....Have a good day everyone......Dave

collegekid
12-03-2007, 09:23 AM
You have to remeber that buprenorphene although strong is a partial antagonist just like Talwin.The saying with buprenorphene is "less is more and more means withdrawls".Any partial agonist will put you into withdrawls or make you feel shitty if you take enough.The average daily dose of buprenorphene is 8-12 mgs and most addicts feel pretty good at those doses.Going over 32mgs will almost certainly put you into precipatated withdrawls although most people suffer from them at even lower doses.So no sense in trying to get high of buprenorphene, it just isn't going to happen....Have a good day everyone......Dave

Yes, the antagonistic effects at the kappa-receptor will begin to reverse the opioid effects of the drug at a sufficient dose... However, saying that "over 32mg will almost certainly put you into precipitated withdrawals" is a bit of a misnomer. I have heard of a number of individuals using significant amounts of the drug without suffering from the antagonistic effects too negatively.

Dezarc
12-11-2007, 12:03 PM
I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask my question.

I have been able to take about .25 or lower of the sub, and have avoided WD. If I can keep tapering down to almost nothing in the span of say 5 or 6 days, will I still be in for horrible WD when I am done, or will taking bupe the way I have help make the WD be minimal?
I am trying to keep to a quick taper since that is what seems to be suggested by the guide.

Inspektahdek
12-11-2007, 12:16 PM
Just a few pictures to hang on the wall of this thread for learning purposes:

http://www.drugs.com/PDR/images/pills/p05331b1.jpg


http://www.drugs.com/PDR/images/pills/p05331a6.jpg

Duckfeet
12-11-2007, 12:23 PM
Most of the experienced sub detoxers--including those, like me, who thought at first it was a wonderdrug, and who *did* find that the final jump brought on unexpected *tough* withdrawals, would agree totally with yer withdrawal plan.... .50 or even .25 for the last few days, and then jump, and it shouldn't be too bad....

I find that most people who have trouble with subs, are those who confuse it's lack of euphoria with a "lack of opiate strength." This is a very strong opiate...just because scientists have found a way to elminate a lot of the "buzz," from subs, doesn't mean it's not a very strong narcotic...most of the unsuccessful detoxes seem to come from people who don't face the fact that this is a serious, strong opiate, and what I couldn't learn from other's experience, I learned on my own, the hard way...

Sounds like u've done yer homework, but for those who haven't, I always suggest they go to heroin-detox.com, to the buprenorphene forum, and see what those very experience sub hands have to say, particularly the guys who've actually made it all the way off, as there seems to be a *huge* difference in opinions from those who see subs in benign ways...and those who have actually been thru longterm buprenorphene usage at higher doses...I fought with them too, thinking they were "exceptions" until I myself, detoxed altogether, and I jumped at 1MG, and wouldn't do it again...

Of course, best wishes to you, dropping way down in daily dosage, and being mentally prepared for a bit of bluesy PAWs will help u a lot...and even people--like me--who think it is over-promoted as a maintenance drug, still think it has limited use for quick detoxes....as does methadone, used quckly and correctly....but I always remember: No Free Lunch... :-(

df



I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask my question.
I have been able to take about .25 or lower of the sub, and have avoided WD. If I can keep tapering down to almost nothing in the span of say 5 or 6 days, will I still be in for horrible WD when I am done, or will taking bupe the way I have help make the WD be minimal?
I am trying to keep to a quick taper since that is what seems to be suggested by the guide.

collegekid
12-11-2007, 05:59 PM
As Duckfeet said, there is no free lunch.

But the plan you have laid out is certainly better than cold turkey off your DOC. And the fact that .25mg or lower is alleviating your w/d symptoms means you shouldn't be in for anything too difficult. Best of luck.

Duckfeet
12-11-2007, 06:20 PM
Yep, most guys I know, or rather read about, who had had unsuccesful detoxes off of bupe, almost always had jumped at 1mg, since it just doesn't *seem* like u are doing very much dope...and day three, most of'em, including me, found the withdrawals too heavy...second time around, most of them said they would go a few days at .5 and even .25, and then maybe every *other* day at .25, and then jump....





As Duckfeet said, there is no free lunch.

But the plan you have laid out is certainly better than cold turkey off your DOC. And the fact that .25mg or lower is alleviating your w/d symptoms means you shouldn't be in for anything too difficult. Best of luck.

mikells43
12-11-2007, 08:55 PM
jump off at the lowest possibable dose. i kno people who have jumped as high as 16mg and payed for it for 10 days. no free lunch like said above. just gets better with time

Dezarc
12-12-2007, 11:45 AM
Thank you for your insight MrDuckfeet, I have been very careful with the sub, and I always take the lowest possible dose to not get sick.
When I first was introduced to the sub, I thought it was the best thing ever, and like and idiot, took a full 8mg pill, I didn't know any better at the time.

Then one day I have a friend call me and say "Be carefull with the sub! Take as small an amount you can, because when your done, WD will be waiting for you." My friend asked the Dr. how long he will have to be on sub and claimed the Dr. said 3 years! I don't want to be on it for that long and do not have the budget or supply for something like that. So I take as little as I can, and so far it has worked. Someone I know also tried to ween off with sub for more then a month, and in the end was WDing very badly and went back to his DOC.
So needless to say, I try to use it as little as possible.

Dezarc
12-12-2007, 11:52 AM
Am I wrong or does it seem like it would almost be easier to come down from my DOC? Willpower permitting.

SpecialGuy69
12-12-2007, 11:54 AM
Am I wrong or does it seem like it would almost be easier to come down from my DOC? Willpower permitting.
If you are ready to really give it a shot, it's much easier to come down on sub because it doesn't feel good. Therefore, no temptation to do it all at once and fuck the consequences till later. whoops! now you got no DOC and your tolerance is higher and your sicker than when you started. At least thats how all my DOC taper stories end.

Duckfeet
12-12-2007, 12:02 PM
This is a *really* good point, and often overlooked: w/subs I can usually stick to taper plan, while w/oxys or dilaudids, or hell, why lie, even methadone and viks, I always end up saying "fuck it," and blow off detox...

The other point, which I need to make clear, is that some people *do* have really good luck on bupe maintenance, getting their lives in order, getting away from the craziness, all that...

I'm opposed to it, and can rant forever, but I know people--just like on methadone--who have done very well on it...I think--just like methadone--we have to check it out ourselves, read the pros *and* cons, and then make decision...


If you are ready to really give it a shot, it's much easier to come down on sub because it doesn't feel good. Therefore, no temptation to do it all at once and fuck the consequences till later. whoops! now you got no DOC and your tolerance is higher and your sicker than when you started. At least thats how all my DOC taper stories end.

SpecialGuy69
12-12-2007, 12:06 PM
Like Duck says. A lot of people get thrown into bupe cuz they are about to be sick and some doc will make them feel better today for $450. They aren't really ready for treatment, they just get jammed up without anything and don't want to be sick, so they head into the bupe doc and get ass-fucked out of 5 bills just to not be sick.

Bupe works when you are ready for it. Jump into it just cuz your sick and want to feel better till more oxys come around and your bound to fail.

mikells43
12-12-2007, 12:55 PM
i see alot of people that do that, they just are sick c ause the supply is low or non existant. so they have that extrat 500 and a bupe doctor can make them feel good. they dont want to get themselves well they just want that quick way out of things. alot of people think bupe is just a quick way out , its really not, it works wonders for those who do want to get well and want their lives back. but if someone is going to a bupe doc just to get subs for when they can't get any dope/pills and selling them on the sides they can go fuck themselves. thats worse addictive behavior than driving to the city to cop lol. q

justonefix
12-12-2007, 04:51 PM
ok, so it's been almost 72 hrs since I took my last dose of methadone (30mg) and here I am STILL waiting for the withdrawal>>????? whats up with that? I wanted to use my two days off to switch from the done to subutex....


so my question is should I just start taking the sub 2mg every two hours like the Dr. said or should I wait to start feeling like shit>??? I know, I know I being a little bitch - and I'm the first to admit it...

Duckfeet
12-12-2007, 04:59 PM
Usually 72 hrs in plenty, but maybe yer bod was goofing around ... but w/subs, I'd still wait until I feel some kicking, u know, yawning, chills, sweats, all that ... but hey, if by day 4, still nothing, I'd just get off both those fuckers and be done with it....


ok, so it's been almost 72 hrs since I took my last dose of methadone (30mg) and here I am STILL waiting for the withdrawal>>????? whats up with that? I wanted to use my two days off to switch from the done to subutex....


so my question is should I just start taking the sub 2mg every two hours like the Dr. said or should I wait to start feeling like shit>??? I know, I know I being a little bitch - and I'm the first to admit it...

justonefix
12-12-2007, 06:01 PM
yeah, that would be sweet! no WD's at all :) I don't know I'm getting chills here and there but its like 30 out side.... sat around waiting for the WD yesterday, got board and went out and had a really nice dinner (halibut cheeks) and a bunch of beer.... stout and benzos have helped me a ton... I did talk with one guy, who was eating like 100 mg a day of the done, he said it took a week before the WD set in >???? so I have no idea of what to expect......


I have tue. and wed. off so the plan was 30 mg sunday night eat a few benzos monday night and wake up tue. feeling like shit.... but here I am wed. evening feeling fine (kinda off but fine)



hmmmmmmmmmmm

Inspektahdek
12-12-2007, 07:46 PM
yeah, that would be sweet! no WD's at all :) I don't know I'm getting chills here and there but its like 30 out side.... sat around waiting for the WD yesterday, got board and went out and had a really nice dinner (halibut cheeks) and a bunch of beer.... stout and benzos have helped me a ton... I did talk with one guy, who was eating like 100 mg a day of the done, he said it took a week before the WD set in >???? so I have no idea of what to expect......


I have tue. and wed. off so the plan was 30 mg sunday night eat a few benzos monday night and wake up tue. feeling like shit.... but here I am wed. evening feeling fine (kinda off but fine)



hmmmmmmmmmmm


eat whle you can, trust me, the benzos and food definitely helped, once I start w/d I cannot eat for days

justonefix
12-12-2007, 10:21 PM
yeah I hear ya... I'm normally the same way - snort an 80 a start feeling like shit about 6 hours later... I've been on the done for about 5 months now. Just pills I get off the street, but I want to try the subutex detox soooo I'm switching from the done to these.................................


only problem is the effin' creepy crawlers seem to want to leave me alone... makes no sence at all, I mean generally I feel like shit within 24hrs of dose... mabey it's a mental thing - you know - I mean I know as soon as the shit starts to hit I've got a little sumthin-sumthin to fight back with....

fuck, i don't know

Duckfeet
12-12-2007, 10:35 PM
Yeah, me too, and methadone doesn't really stay with me even all night: I start getting sick around 8 hrs later, ever since I dropped down to 50mg, but I hate higher doses ... and same thing w/oxys: I don't feel them that much, but it sure seems to fuck w/the methadone when I run out ... and I've only been on it steady for six months, but I've been about a year and half, just bouncing between pills, heroin, methadone, back to pills, heroin, methadone....

I hope subs work for you: I found they felt better if I took one just upon awakening, and were fairly easy to keep at lower doses, just hard to jump from...

best wishes...


yeah I hear ya... I'm normally the same way - snort an 80 a start feeling like shit about 6 hours later... I've been on the done for about 5 months now. Just pills I get off the street, but I want to try the subutex detox soooo I'm switching from the done to these.................................


only problem is the effin' creepy crawlers seem to want to leave me alone... makes no sence at all, I mean generally I feel like shit within 24hrs of dose... mabey it's a mental thing - you know - I mean I know as soon as the shit starts to hit I've got a little sumthin-sumthin to fight back with....

fuck, i don't know

justonefix
12-12-2007, 10:41 PM
thanks bro

vishvm
12-24-2007, 04:24 AM
I've been reading some comments about how bupe/done can heal receptors in the brain and I have to say no way. All you are doing is swapping one opiate for another. Bupe can stop WD's but that's because you've fed the body what it wants which is an opiate. Try jumping off and see how healed the receptors are.

I do catch a kind of buzz from bupe - more like a speedy feeling than anything opiate like, but it's definitely there, particularly if I dose later in the day and really need my dose.

I've been on the shit for way too long (5 years) and as a consequence I'm going to taper really slow. I'm on 2mg's (went down to 0.6 at one point) and I will jump from 0.2 mg every 3/4/5th day. I take bupe most days and figure there's an enormous amount in my system and I'm going to suffer big time/long term unless I take it super slow. Funnily enough I've found it very easy to get down to 2 mg and even when I went down to 0.6 it wasn't too difficult. My theory is that going to 0.0 is so hard because even at 0.2 it's a 100% reduction + whatever the body has stored whereas when tapering the body gets used to the lesser amount but with 0 you are naked. There's nowhere to hide and nothing to cover yourself with (bar more chemicals).

Luckily in Australia we pay $30 per week and don't have any hassles getting it, except we must go into a chemist and dose daily/every 2 days.

justonefix
12-25-2007, 11:14 PM
thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!!!


this thread has been great help for me...

Saint
01-06-2008, 10:51 AM
Is there anyone who found that sub didn't work for them? I started subuxone after 24 years on done. Came of 15 mgs of methadone only but felt miserable for months on subuxone, no matter what dose I took + it didn't do anything for pain. But so far most consider it a wonderdrug and in general people are very happy on subs. Am I the exception to the rule?
After my failed switch to subs I decided that - if I ever try a taper again - I might as well taper of methadone alone, without subs as an in-between...
I think sub works well for shortterm addicts but doesn't do the trick for the longterm ones...

SpecialGuy69
01-06-2008, 11:50 AM
Is there anyone who found that sub didn't work for them? Me! And I wrote most of this thread!!! I just got tired of the physical stress of the change-over from fun opys to subs, and started to really fear it. Then one of my good friends got a massive methadone script (enough to where he could sell me a month's worth and still have his), and I tried it and liked it. And once I had methadone in my system, I was even more scared to jump back on the bupe.

Three reasons I like methadone better:
-no changeover and threat of precipitated withdrawls
-no blocking effect (at the dose I'm on- 12.5mg/day)
-you could take a whole bunch of methadone and feel high (I guess)

Nowdays, I get 150 10mg tabs a month for CP.

Saint
01-06-2008, 12:06 PM
I didn't read the whole thread (sorry, I have before but can't remember all of it now) but on all drugfora people are so over-enthousiastic about subs that I started to doubt myself. But apparently you didn't like subs as well, although for different reasons.
I just didn't get to feel better on subs, not even after taking them for 10 weeks. Instead I felt horrible, tense muscles, oversensitive to light, pain and a general shite-feeling.. In my case it's probably due to having taken methadone over 24 years, maybe I simply can't get used to a semi-agonist and I need a full agonist, always.
I don't even like methadone better because it gives a high (because it doesn't for me on 50 mgs, not anymore anyway) but simply because I have less pain on methadone and I function better on it. Better said: on subs I did not function at all, I felt too miserable all the time.
But I'm pretty sure that - if I'd still be using H occasionally - I'd never switch to subs: way too much hassle with the blockingeffect, switching back and forth with precipitated WD-s etc. etc.
It's just not for everyone I guess.

Inspektahdek
02-28-2008, 10:14 AM
I prefer methadone to subs anyday, it's a full agonist! 50-80mgs doesn't get me high but it gets me ok. I take around 150mg for a high. It's way better for me because I'm a CP patient. I'm trying to get switched to methadone but I want to have fent and done' but I don't want to slip up and say something stupid and end up getting JUST DONE'

eerased
06-23-2008, 11:32 AM
I know this is an oldy but thank the good opy god for it!! Saved my ass allot of pain and suffering!! Sooo ThANK YOU

roxi*stardust
06-23-2008, 01:43 PM
I prefer methadone to subs anyday, it's a full agonist! 50-80mgs doesn't get me high but it gets me ok. I take around 150mg for a high. It's way better for me because I'm a CP patient. I'm trying to get switched to methadone but I want to have fent and done' but I don't want to slip up and say something stupid and end up getting JUST DONE'


I agree! Can get by on 20mg a day.

lisa
07-17-2008, 10:45 PM
WONDERFUL Suboxone guide....I'm sure it took you guys a long time. Thanks for spreading the knowledge.

Duckfeet
07-18-2008, 12:21 AM
Yep, one of the creators of this guide is madnesscult, a pal of mine down here in SD: haven't seen her in a bit...



WONDERFUL Suboxone guide....I'm sure it took you guys a long time. Thanks for spreading the knowledge.

LongKissGoodNite
07-28-2008, 03:51 PM
A quick question about my first dose of suboxone. I've had a Oxy habit for about 1 year now and my last dose of oxy was 24 hours ago. My usual daily dose was from 120-300 mgs. I haven't had any oxy but have been taking small amounts of hydro. Today I took about 40 mg of hydro. Would be ok to take 2 mg of suboxone today? Or should I wait until I have nothing in my system for 16 hours before the first dose? Even with the hydros I am still feeling some withdrawal. Although not that bad. I don't know if this would be safe to the suboxone with the hydro in my system.

What do you guys think?

Opiyum
07-28-2008, 04:02 PM
When your eyes start to water and your legs start to feel as if they would be more comfortable on a midevil torture rack then you should be good. Do yourself a favor and don't wait till it's at its worst. It's not necessary.
Of course having only been using for one year I can't imagine your WD's are all that bad to begin with but of course it's all relative. To you it may be terrible and to others not much.

Best of luck either way.

LongKissGoodNite
07-28-2008, 04:11 PM
When your eyes start to water and your legs start to feel as if they would be more comfortable on a midevil torture rack then you should be good. Do yourself a favor and don't wait till it's at its worst. It's not necessary.
Of course having only been using for one year I can't imagine your WD's are all that bad to begin with but of course it's all relative. To you it may be terrible and to others not much.

Best of luck either way.


Thanks for the well wishes. I will wait longer, but my main question is about the hydro. Because it's a short acting opiate. Is it going to cause withdrawal? If I wait another 8-10 hours? Or because I have been subsituting the hydro for oxy, will the naloxone still cause the withdrawal?

Opiyum
07-28-2008, 04:19 PM
The naloxone isn't what causes the WD's first of all. Orally that stuff doesn't really work or become active anyhow.
Second the substitution should have no effect. There is no exact time there are just recommendations. It's going to differ for everyone but if you do like I said you have almost zero chance of precipatated WD's.

Your still going to have a few days were you don't feel 100% no matter what. That's just how subs work but it won't be near as bad as it would be if you had none.

LongKissGoodNite
07-28-2008, 05:51 PM
The naloxone isn't what causes the WD's first of all. Orally that stuff doesn't really work or become active anyhow.
Second the substitution should have no effect. There is no exact time there are just recommendations. It's going to differ for everyone but if you do like I said you have almost zero chance of precipatated WD's.

Your still going to have a few days were you don't feel 100% no matter what. That's just how subs work but it won't be near as bad as it would be if you had none.


Thanks for the advice. One more question. Using the suboxone, is that going to raise my tolerance? I mean would it be better to just stick with the norcos and taper off? Or is it easier to use subs?

Delo
08-11-2008, 08:59 PM
I just wanted to mention that I have been on suboxen for 3 months and it has absolutely changed my life. I havent posted on here in a long time but thought some one would want to hear that for me it has been a miracle... I have been using for close to 10 years and this is the first thing that has worked for me to any degree... If you are like me and had no other hope, what the fuck try it. My quality of life has improved 10 fold I plan on staying on it for as long as I need it. As a side note my doctor gives me my subs on the spot and i dont have to go to the pharmacymy doc dispenses to all his patients and the nurses are extremely nice...

Duckfeet
08-11-2008, 11:15 PM
Yep, u can get a habit, but In My *Opinion* subs are a much worse habit, and should be approached carefully, just like methadone...I think there is a tendency lately to get on these drugs way too soon: they are end of line meds, and for junkys who absolutely are all strung out, and desperately need opiates to stave off withdrawals...I fought the fight: dope/kicking for many years, and only got on methadone and subs when I just couldn't fight no more, and couldn't take the withdrawals, and now spend most of my waking time, trying to get off methadone...which I'm "cautiously" optimistic about, for some unknown reason...

Best wishes, but always read-up on these things before jumping in: I myself always recommend www.heroin-detox.com, if you want to hear the grim truth about methadone *or* bupe ... but if you *are* comitted to being on them, then I suggest you make the best of it, as I have, and try to see the positive in these meds....



Thanks for the well wishes. I will wait longer, but my main question is about the hydro. Because it's a short acting opiate. Is it going to cause withdrawal? If I wait another 8-10 hours? Or because I have been subsituting the hydro for oxy, will the naloxone still cause the withdrawal?

AmblerG
01-27-2009, 02:42 PM
"The last time I touched opiates was thursday at around 11am. It was 2mg from a suboxone tablet. went the entire weekend in withdrawals. Today, sunday, I was really fed up with the symptoms. feeling like shit. the hot and cold. the spine/back tingles. fortunately no vomiting.. cant sleep without sedatives in me tho. so today, sunday, I took like 1.5-2mg. its sitting under my tongue as we speak.

I'm so close to sneezing from the w/ds but that would expell all the sub from under my tounge.

ahh this fucking sucks

EDIT

did I just fuck myself over by taking that mg or two of bupe this morning? I havent had a weekend without opiates in ages, and it was a feat for me to do what I did.

I did no opiates or anything all day friday and all day saturday. like i mentioned above, before this morning's dose the last time i dosed was a few mg on thursday around noon.

so I didnt bring myself back to where I was on thursday, did I? I'm certain that those 72+ hours without dosing suboxone did something to reduce tolerance.

any constructive feedback appreciated, as always."

for a pal. any help?

duck
01-27-2009, 04:01 PM
I don't think you fucked yourself, but it doesn't help.

When I was kicking a while back, I did the same thing: took just a mg or two after being clean of opi's for a couple weeks. The withdrawals were decreasing in intensity, but I was so sick of them, I just broke down. I took the 2mg, and felt good that day. Then, the next, I didn't feel good, but I wasn't withdrawing. But then the day after, that, I started feeling the same level of WD that I was having before.

My conclusion is that the long half-life really sets you back for at least 2-3 days.

Spaazkaz
05-07-2009, 10:15 AM
Yep, u can get a habit, but In My *Opinion* subs are a much worse habit, and should be approached carefully, just like methadone...I think there is a tendency lately to get on these drugs way too soon: they are end of line meds, and for junkys who absolutely are all strung out, and desperately need opiates to stave off withdrawals...I fought the fight: dope/kicking for many years, and only got on methadone and subs when I just couldn't fight no more, and couldn't take the withdrawals, and now spend most of my waking time, trying to get off methadone...which I'm "cautiously" optimistic about, for some unknown reason...

Best wishes, but always read-up on these things before jumping in: I myself always recommend www.heroin-detox.com (http://www.heroin-detox.com), if you want to hear the grim truth about methadone *or* bupe ... but if you *are* comitted to being on them, then I suggest you make the best of it, as I have, and try to see the positive in these meds....

thanks for the link, in my 5 minutes on there I learned enough to scare myself into lowering my dose. spaz

duck
06-19-2009, 07:57 AM
Sorry for bumping an old thread but I have a pertinant question and did not want to start another thread.

Say one has been on suboxone for a number of months, maybe 8 months or so, taking 1-2mg every day religiously. Now, say, that after this, the person decides to use oxycodone one morning before his suboxone dose. He takes 80mg, goes back to sleep, but wakes up 6 hours later feeling kinda crappy and wants to take his daily sub.

Usually, people advise to wait at least 12 hours, but what if you have a LOT of sub in your system to begin with from taking it for months? Wouldn't this prevent precipitated withdrawal? Even if you hadn't had it in a day, and took your DOC, couldn't you pretty much go immediately back to taking sub?

Why or why not?

Thanks!! uu==D

30_Units
06-19-2009, 08:04 AM
Logic would tell me that since one would have had continuous receptor occupation by the bupe-that very little in the minuscule range to none of the oxycodone got onto your receptors. Receptors not being occupied by oxycodone, there is none to rip off when daily dose is administered. You didn't hold off any doses of bupe before taking the OC, right? Then I don't think you've got anything to worry about.

But that's just logic-and practice is often different.

You might want to wait for someone who's actually done it to proceed, but if it was me, I wouldn't feel wrong in taking my normal dose.

duck
06-19-2009, 08:12 AM
Thanks 30U. I agree with your logic, except my receptors definitely got the oxy....I can tell you that much. I took my daily dose of 2mg of suboxone intranasally at 8AM yesterday and did 120mg of oxy last night and felt at least 90mg of it.

Today, however, I woke up and did another 80mg of oxy at 6AM without taking my usual daily sub dose first....felt the entire 80 this time....however, come about 1 or 2PM I will not be feeling the oxy anymore and will probably want to dose my sub.....wonder if it will precipitate withdrawals.

Thanks again 30U

by the way your signature quote is superb

30_Units
06-19-2009, 08:19 AM
ahhaaa-yeah. If you felt it, then yeah. That's a possibility. I was a scaredy-cat with pod tea and waited ~70 hours before and 36 after.

So you broke through the blockade? Or should I say 'blockade'? I've seen like three people mentioning using on top of suboxone with no ill effects this morning. Crazy. I wish I had something a little more potent than pods to ahem.....ahh bioassay?

Thanks on the sig mane-he has a lot of goodn's.

duck
06-19-2009, 08:40 AM
Yeah I have never really struggled with breaking through...I mean, it definitely reduces it, but not a level that dissuades me from using my DOC. Certain drugs break through easier, oxy breaks through much easier than morphine, for example.

Would like to hear some other opinions on the precipitated withdrawals.

Duckfeet
06-19-2009, 09:07 AM
Haha: I miss the girl who started this thread: she's a pal of mine from down here...but doing dope on subs doesn't kick the subs out, only the reverse: being all strung out on some *other* opiate, and not waiting long enough to *start* subs is the only time one worrys about PWs....

Several times while on subs, I got some good Baltimore dope, and waited 'til morning to do it, and got a great heroin buzz, and then next day, went back to subs again...no worrys...

I never did feel oxys tho, no matter *how* many I did...

sure miss madness cult, tho...she was so pretty and young and lost...

southernbelle
06-19-2009, 09:27 AM
Do you know what happened to her?

Poppylvr
06-19-2009, 11:31 AM
Thanks 30U. I agree with your logic, except my receptors definitely got the oxy....I can tell you that much. I took my daily dose of 2mg of suboxone intranasally at 8AM yesterday and did 120mg of oxy last night and felt at least 90mg of it.

Today, however, I woke up and did another 80mg of oxy at 6AM without taking my usual daily sub dose first....felt the entire 80 this time....however, come about 1 or 2PM I will not be feeling the oxy anymore and will probably want to dose my sub.....wonder if it will precipitate withdrawals.

Thanks again 30U

by the way your signature quote is superb
duck, I don't think you will feel PW's - because you only used a little bit of Oxy.
No comparison, but with my hand surgery last week, I took last sub(1 mg) on Monday. Surgery Tuesday. Used 3 lortab 10 (as prescribed!) Tues, 2 L10's on Wed, 2 on Thurs. Thurs & Fri pm had bad restless legs and that "feeling of impeding doom" of early wd's. Fri at 4 am I said fuckit and took 2 mg sub. In 30 mins, the RLS and dysphoria went away, and I fell asleep and woke at 8 feeling excellent. NO PW, but then I was using low dose lortabs.
HTH

Duckfeet
06-19-2009, 04:51 PM
No: I used to bump into her, u know, about where u'd expect, and she was always sweet as could be, but, shit, nothing to say, really...another heartbreak kid...but it's been a few months since I last saw her...the thing we had most in common, ain't in my life now, and I go to different clinic, so......she was just the kind of waif, tho, that people *always* want to protect...and truthfully, once yer on this road, nobody can help u....


Do you know what happened to her?

madnesscult
07-16-2009, 10:35 PM
I'm still around, just aren't able to get on the internet much. BTW Duck, I'm doing a lot better than the last time I saw you.

It sucks not being able to be on here anymore, but hopefully I'll be getting a new computer soon and be back again.

So many new people, and so many good people gone :(

Duckfeet
07-17-2009, 02:04 AM
I'm so glad to see you back around here...part of getting older is you worry about younger people you know...it never did any good for me, but anyway...glad to see you again...people on here were always asking about you...and since you're the only one I ever met on here, I worried...when I was your age, that life, just...fuck: obviously it's hard to escape...but again, glad to see you on here again...hope things get better still...I'm still right down by the pier...out swimming today...every day, actually...:)



I'm still around, just aren't able to get on the internet much. BTW Duck, I'm doing a lot better than the last time I saw you.
It sucks not being able to be on here anymore, but hopefully I'll be getting a new computer soon and be back again.
So many new people, and so many good people gone :(

squareone
10-18-2009, 12:59 AM
I just got Subutex, so can I take it right after I use other opiates? Since it doesnt have Nalaxone.

OxyBlowBall2
10-18-2009, 01:25 AM
I just got Subutex, so can I take it right after I use other opiates? Since it doesnt have Nalaxone.

bupe itself is a mixed agonist/antagonist so it can still cause pwd's if you take it right after using full agonists. at least thats what i got from wikipedia.

hovadagod
10-18-2009, 07:07 AM
no


I just got Subutex, so can I take it right after I use other opiates? Since it doesnt have Nalaxone.

Oakleyskier
10-18-2009, 10:01 AM
I just got Subutex, so can I take it right after I use other opiates? Since it doesnt have Nalaxone.


hovadagod gave you a clear answer, but just to make it more clear, YOU ABSOLUTELY CANNOT!

squareone
10-18-2009, 05:20 PM
I have waited 13 hours now is it a good time?

GOLD N DIEMONDS
10-18-2009, 09:15 PM
SYMPTOMS
are you in heavy withdrawal?
are you sneezes?
are u pant shitting?
why have you not been researching this for past 13 hours
believe me you don't want to PRECIPITATE

squareone
10-19-2009, 12:15 AM
not even close. i used tar again. i am going to use my subutex in 12 hours. which is tommorow morning. i read online people use it in 6 hours and are good.

I only use like .5 of tar a day. if that. so i think i will be good in 12 hours.

GOLD N DIEMONDS
10-19-2009, 01:01 AM
not even close. i used tar again. i am going to use my subutex in 12 hours. which is tommorow morning. i read online people use it in 6 hours and are good.

I only use like .5 of tar a day. if that. so i think i will be good in 12 hours.

okay YEAH YOU PROBABLY WAKE UP IN LIGHT WIHDRAWAL
BUT SUBS are so fucking weird that want holds true for you is way off for another.
so I would wait until sure signs of WDS start, MINE FIRST is the excessive yawning
then the shit ansty feeling, then the ah actually shitting
PERSONAL SOMEWHERE IN THERE i WOULD TAKE THE SUBTEX
SO GO WITH HOW YOU FEEL -NOT BY THE CLOCK
AND yes it is the sbutex- bup that causes the PRECIPATED WITHDRAWL
in the suboxone the just threw that naxol. shit in to please FDA
it was original going to be SCHUDELE II- VERY BAD FOR SALES
SO THEY GOT IT TO SCHEDULE III - IS VERY GOOD FOR SALE

good luck, are you trying to kick habit or just taking a break?

squareone
10-19-2009, 01:16 AM
okay YEAH YOU PROBABLY WAKE UP IN LIGHT WIHDRAWAL
BUT SUBS are so fucking weird that want holds true for you is way off for another.
so I would wait until sure signs of WDS start, MINE FIRST is the excessive yawning
then the shit ansty feeling, then the ah actually shitting
PERSONAL SOMEWHERE IN THERE i WOULD TAKE THE SUBTEX
SO GO WITH HOW YOU FEEL -NOT BY THE CLOCK
AND yes it is the sbutex- bup that causes the PRECIPATED WITHDRAWL
in the suboxone the just threw that naxol. shit in to please FDA
it was original going to be SCHUDELE II- VERY BAD FOR SALES
SO THEY GOT IT TO SCHEDULE III - IS VERY GOOD FOR SALE

good luck, are you trying to kick habit or just taking a break?
I don't have W/D symptoms for 24-48 hours. So is 12 hours ok? The reason I am so adamant about taking them tomorrow morning is because I have school, and it's very hard for me to socialize without them. Let alone wake up in the morning with NOTHING to look forward too.

bigNasty
10-19-2009, 01:20 AM
I don't have W/D symptoms for 24-48 hours. So is 12 hours ok?
No, well probably not. Why would you want to take sub @ 12 hours at the risk of PWD if you don't get WD symptoms til 24 hours?

Here's an easy way to wait for at least 20 hours. Dose your DOC 12 hours before you go to sleep, sleep 8 hours then dose with sub

squareone
10-19-2009, 01:36 AM
No, well probably not. Why would you want to take sub @ 12 hours at the risk of PWD if you don't get WD symptoms til 24 hours?

Here's an easy way to wait for at least 20 hours. Dose your DOC 12 hours before you go to sleep, sleep 8 hours then dose with sub
because I want to feel normal, and some what high. I already answered that. FUCK. I take .5 of tar max a day, even then 12 hours wouldn't be ok? I just read online some one used subs 6 hours after they shot up and it went ok.

Indy
10-19-2009, 02:34 AM
Everyone's different but the first time always takes the longest. When you already have some built up in your system, then take your DOC for a day or two, and then switch back to sub its a lot easier because you still have some in your body.

Just be careful, what I would do is take a tiny bit, like .5 mg, then wait a half hour and see how you feel, then repeat until you start going into withdrawal or start feeling better.

If you aren't feeling pretty damn shitty already the sub is just gonna make things a lot worse IMO.

sweetheat
10-19-2009, 06:44 AM
Just because somewhere, someone was ok taking bupe 6 hours after their last dose of doc does not at all mean you will be. There are many factors in determining when one will be ok to take bupe, doc being one and personal drug metabolism being another.

If you wanna take the bupe just to feel the social aspect you get from dope and get a little high, then you really didn't research bupe enough. It's unlikely you will ever feel high from bupe. Just be careful, 12 hours isn't enough imo. I waited about 16 the first time I tried to dose with suboxone, and threw myself into the nastiest precip withdrawl there could be. I thought I was going to die for hours, I definitely felt like death.

Imagine you get up for class, dose with the bupe for no reason since it takes you 24-48 hours to feel sick anyways, and send yourself into precip hell. Won't be very social then.... Just sayin. Wait as long as possible!

RifRaf
10-19-2009, 11:07 AM
Yea, just chill out and wait until you feel sick, if you're not sick do not take it. I've been there, done that, and did it IV and it was no fun. You posted your last comment on at 11:36 PM on the 18th (yesterday) and if it had already been 12 hours since then I would say, adding this near 12 hours, you should be fine to take it now. You probably already have, but I'm just throwing in my two cents.

squareone
10-19-2009, 07:00 PM
I took it 12 hours after use, didn't get sick at all. I have taken around 8mg, and I haven't had any luck getting high...I don't really even W/D much even when I stop for 4 days. Just a sore back, depression and tiredness.

GOLD N DIEMONDS
10-19-2009, 07:19 PM
well RUMORS ABOUND ABOUT GETTING HIGH ON BUP.
but hea you will never get HIGH as asociate to H
I mean you kind of already went to lala heaven
a bup high might just be a subtle glow
and thats with mostly opiate naive.
I take it you are NOT in a SUB program with Dr.?
mabe I missed but what are reason for going on subtex and are you spiking it
snorting is safest and most effictive

i guess your habit is realitively low
keep sub intake low
subs can jack up you tolerance VERY QUICLY AND VERY MUCH

squareone
10-19-2009, 07:38 PM
No I am not in a sub program, and no I don't shoot up. I only have enough for 3-4 more days, so I don't think my tolerance will shoot up.

RifRaf
10-19-2009, 07:47 PM
I can get a slight buzz from Sub's if I double up and haven't had anything in a few days, but it is rare.


I don't really even W/D much even when I stop for 4 days. Just a sore back, depression and tiredness.

You should probably stop, or chip, right now. Those symptoms don't even sound like mild opiate withdrawals.

nycjrt
10-20-2009, 01:49 AM
'Here to Help Program'
- so i just went to my sub doc (of 18 months or so) and upon walking in she asked for a urine test...first time in 17 visits, but i've been pretty good so was not worried. During consultation the doctor started pressing whether i might want to try a 5 day inpatient (where they use the same subs i'm already on- i've been to her in full-blown wds, after multiple relapses and she has never mentioned this- here I am reporting clean, and happy the subs are maintaining me and she wants to put me into detox??) she then started speaking about the DEA, and how the gov't wants her sub patients signed up to a telephone counseling service called 'here to help' (i researched it, funded by pharma. co that markets subutex/oxone, reckitt-b)
Has anyone else on sub maintenance been 'encouraged' to sign up for this? It really seems geared for 1st -time users trying to kick w/ subs, more of a PR gimmick to cover the pharma. co's ass when people start complaining about getting strung out on subs in the media, like oxys.

RifRaf
10-20-2009, 02:27 AM
Yea, I seen something about it at my clinic, but it was merely a printed out paper that was stuck with the rest of the papers that you can grab and read *if you want* (the NA pamphlets, Methadone FAQ's, crap like that). It didn't seem to important to my Doctor, he never mentioned it.

GOLD N DIEMONDS
10-20-2009, 02:41 AM
'Here to Help Program'
- so i just went to my sub doc (of 18 months or so) and upon walking in she asked for a urine test...first time in 17 visits, but i've been pretty good so was not worried. During consultation the doctor started pressing whether i might want to try a 5 day inpatient (where they use the same subs i'm already on- i've been to her in full-blown wds, after multiple relapses and she has never mentioned this- here I am reporting clean, and happy the subs are maintaining me and she wants to put me into detox??) she then started speaking about the DEA, and how the gov't wants her sub patients signed up to a telephone counseling service called 'here to help' (i researched it, funded by pharma. co that markets subutex/oxone, reckitt-b)
Has anyone else on sub maintenance been 'encouraged' to sign up for this? It really seems geared for 1st -time users trying to kick w/ subs, more of a PR gimmick to cover the pharma. co's ass when people start complaining about getting strung out on subs in the media, like oxys.

WOW - HOLY FUCK
I am not surprised thought.
NOW TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DEA TALKING WITH SUBS DOCTORS
PLEASE DON'T ANYONE SIGN UP FOR THIS
PLEASE.
this is so worg on so many levels.
DO YA THINK DEA IS ENCOURAGING DOC TO HAVE THEIR DIABETIC PATIENTS SIGN UP FOR SOME PROGROM??????:mad:

Motown
10-20-2009, 09:11 AM
'Here to Help Program'
- so i just went to my sub doc (of 18 months or so) and upon walking in she asked for a urine test...first time in 17 visits, but i've been pretty good so was not worried. During consultation the doctor started pressing whether i might want to try a 5 day inpatient (where they use the same subs i'm already on- i've been to her in full-blown wds, after multiple relapses and she has never mentioned this- here I am reporting clean, and happy the subs are maintaining me and she wants to put me into detox??) she then started speaking about the DEA, and how the gov't wants her sub patients signed up to a telephone counseling service called 'here to help' (i researched it, funded by pharma. co that markets subutex/oxone, reckitt-b)
Has anyone else on sub maintenance been 'encouraged' to sign up for this? It really seems geared for 1st -time users trying to kick w/ subs, more of a PR gimmick to cover the pharma. co's ass when people start complaining about getting strung out on subs in the media, like oxys.


My sub doctor just upped the visitation price by $20 (my copay used to be $25)
Now I have to pay $45 - BUT the $20 is refundable if I go to their (my Dr's) NA meeting.

$5 rebate per meeting/week..... so I can get the $20 back. But my doctor sure is tightening
up on the "counseling" part. Making all his patients go - or charging the extra $20.

He's a great doctor though..... I guess I'll be going to meetings from now on.
But I was surprised that they could just up the co-pay - since I go through insurance and all.

nycjrt
10-21-2009, 03:37 AM
WOW - HOLY FUCK
I am not surprised thought.
NOW TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DEA TALKING WITH SUBS DOCTORS
PLEASE DON'T ANYONE SIGN UP FOR THIS
PLEASE.
this is so worg on so many levels.
DO YA THINK DEA IS ENCOURAGING DOC TO HAVE THEIR DIABETIC PATIENTS SIGN UP FOR SOME PROGROM??????:mad:
Again, it is sponsored by the pharm companies themselves, I believe there is a precedent with oxy, other drugs wherein media was accusing companies of misleading their patients blindly into addiction, this time it seems like reckitt b. is doing some pre-emptive damage control....
re: dea involvement, my gut feeling is it is some docs trying to make nice with dea and cover themselves as their 'cash in hand' business grows a bit too big and hits the radar - imo, the DEA may be pressuring the shadier (e.g. no insurance co-pays accepted, cash goes straight into lab coat lol) docs who are being a bit too liberal with their cash only/tax free/undocumented practices - i've heard of a few docs with a thriving business, tax-free/cash only, never ask any questions/suggested follow ups/tested/etc.- all that matters is the co-pay...if I were DEA I'd be a bit interested myself, especially with all the negative sub stories working their way into media- i have a feeling this is just the beginning, media will be asking gov't /pharm companies what they did to control the 'suboxone epidemic' once the NY Times does a few reports on all the 'strung-out sub-addicted teenagers' in scarsdale or some other rich area...
For the record, I saw this happen here in nyc to the sub docs in the early late 90s/2000s who used to advertise in back of village voice, etc. - these were 'croakers' still handing over scripts for (hundreds of:)) amps of bupe even after they rescheduled from class 5 , and came out with subutex/oxone :vomit: - eventually DEA started asking for files, due diligence on doc's part- I actually had a doc offer to waive my fee if i testified re: his no-existent treatment (typical therapy appointment= $200 for a handful of scripts, filled out before I arrived = 1 minute visit) - those ads disappeared overnight, as did the shady offices/pain management clinics - i guess this reminded me of that, plus it is always creepy when your doc mentions 'the dea is asking all of our subscribers to sign up" - fortunately the office is so lax as long as the co-payment is in hand i'm not too worried.

GOLD N DIEMONDS
10-21-2009, 07:41 AM
"Again, it is sponsored by the pharm companies themselves, I believe there is a precedent with oxy, other drugs wherein media was accusing companies of misleading their patients blindly into addiction, this time it seems like reckitt b. is doing some pre-emptive damage control...." nycjrt

OH YEAH, got that and agree. MISLEADING patients , you mean like calling it an OPIATE BLOCKER- lol
just saying -signing up and haveing name on a list, that may or may not be turn to DEA. and you're on their computer base.??? ah no thanks

YOU KNOW the big problem with suboxone is THE EXPENSE. If DEA/FDA wanted to do some real good. Take their patente protect off and make cheap geniric, limit the cost doc can charge for 5 minute consulting fees +$300
etc.
well good luck there- many are going to be maintance for long time, nothing wrong with that- should make it cheap for them

mikey5string
10-21-2009, 07:48 AM
just to add my $.02.

my friend gets a buzz on subs (2mg insuffated). like an energetic mood lift. he had a decent habit too.

also,

a lot of people ask this and the answers vary widely so i figure ill add my experience.

my friend felt dope 12 hrs after taking 2mgs of sub. he has dont it twice and it worked both times. he took 6mgs on monday night around 7 then another 2mgs at 6:00AM on tuesday and was able to get off at 6:30PM Tuesday. he did his normal dose of DOC.

however he also remembers taking oxy 12 hrs after and being dissapointed. this, however, could be attributed to his tolerence.

hovadagod
10-21-2009, 10:31 AM
My sub doctor gave me the card with the info and told me it's free counseling to get off of sub provided by reckitt to cover their ass b/c the sub WD's are so much worse than they advertised.



'Here to Help Program'
- so i just went to my sub doc (of 18 months or so) and upon walking in she asked for a urine test...first time in 17 visits, but i've been pretty good so was not worried. During consultation the doctor started pressing whether i might want to try a 5 day inpatient (where they use the same subs i'm already on- i've been to her in full-blown wds, after multiple relapses and she has never mentioned this- here I am reporting clean, and happy the subs are maintaining me and she wants to put me into detox??) she then started speaking about the DEA, and how the gov't wants her sub patients signed up to a telephone counseling service called 'here to help' (i researched it, funded by pharma. co that markets subutex/oxone, reckitt-b)
Has anyone else on sub maintenance been 'encouraged' to sign up for this? It really seems geared for 1st -time users trying to kick w/ subs, more of a PR gimmick to cover the pharma. co's ass when people start complaining about getting strung out on subs in the media, like oxys.

Oakleyskier
10-21-2009, 10:37 AM
bro, your nuts if you were searching for a high outta the bupe. but yeah, some people with light habbits can take subbies before they start getting ill, like they get ill at 24 hours but take it at 12 hours. FOR ME its no bueno, that would be instant hell on earth, i actually wait longer than i should! thats how scary precipitated withdrawls are!

edit--- THIS GOES TO MIKEY.

i just recently got back on maitence. been taking 16 mgs a day (i know a monster dose oops) well monday took my normal dose of 16, than tuesday took a dose of 8mgs at 9:30am. at 10:30PM that night swim did a big shot and felt it, albeit not as great as it could be, but better than i expected. i didnt think it was physically possible

doctor diesel
10-21-2009, 10:45 AM
What I'm rapidly discovering is that sometime bupe blocks, and sometimes it doesn't and there doesn't seem to be too much of a pattern to it. I've proved that it's not strictly related to size of dose, nor is it to time elapsed since last dose.
So what the fuck does determine it?
At times, I've had an 8mg dose block me totally for nearly three days, and at other times, I've had 12mg in my system for less than 24 hours and I've gone and successfully dosed up on DOC.
This bupe is an animal that can't easily be trained.


Doc

nodrover
05-14-2010, 02:21 PM
WOW - HOLY FUCK
I am not surprised thought.
NOW TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DEA TALKING WITH SUBS DOCTORS
PLEASE DON'T ANYONE SIGN UP FOR THIS
PLEASE.
this is so worg on so many levels.
DO YA THINK DEA IS ENCOURAGING DOC TO HAVE THEIR DIABETIC PATIENTS SIGN UP FOR SOME PROGROM??????:mad:
Yes!!!! When I first started my treatment I was enrolled in this. I really suggest you do it to. Its a 20 min phone call like 5 or 6 times during 6 months and they send you a $50 check after each one! Awesome!

D-Stabilized
07-23-2010, 12:04 AM
Blocking effect after only 1 day on suboxone.

As others have aptly pointed out, there's no golden rule as to how long bupe will block the effects of full agonists. There are many factors involved and even when they are all considered there's a fair degree of variability between individuals and even between different experiences of a single individual.

With this in mind, I offer the following:

I have what I consider to be a moderate habit. Normally I use 16-20mg of IV dilaudid per day or about 150mg IV morphine per day - both drugs in 2-3 divided doses throughout the day.

Yesterday (almost exactly 24 hrs. ago) I started self administering suboxone. Over the course of that one day I have taken 10 mgs. of suboxone - 2 mgs. at a time, some subligually and some rectally (rectally is definitely much more effective IMO). So that's a total of 10 mgs. for one day only. It has worked like a charm at keeping the w/d's at bay and even does a fair job at managing my pain.

I plan to stay on them but at much lower doses, hopefully no more than 2 mgs. per day. Anyway, today my most recent 2 mg. dose was only 6 hours ago and purely for the sake of science I decided to see what, if anything, would happen if I tried a full agonist. So I loaded up the rig with 60 mgs. of morphine and went for it. I was disappointed (but not surprised). The only thing that I felt was a weird prickly sensation around my neck and shoulder area - unlike anything I'd ever experienced before. It felt neither good nor bad - just strange and lasted for about a minute. No rush, no euphoria, nothing but the mild stinging. About the only thing I learned from this is that even after just one day of bupe, it's got full control of the mu receptors.

This was at 11:00pm. It'll be interesting to see what I feel like 12 hours from now when I leave for work again.

pulp90
09-16-2010, 04:36 PM
i'll go to to my doc for subotex tomorrow thanx for your post it's very usefull

lister40
01-21-2012, 12:13 AM
So from what I am reading here, I can take a 50mg dose of loperamide if I'm on suboxone and not experience precipitated withdrawal? I guess that makes sense because I've blasted through the blocking effect with other opiates before.. I was worried I would have PW, but I just realized that lope is basically the same as other opiates.. (obv not as abused and the whole BBB stuff, but it's still an opiate.) I'm going to experiment with a 50mg dose.. I've had some diarrhea lately and wanted to take some lope but though I'd have PW.. I also want to try it to see if it gives any type of "synergy" high or anything interesting if I'm on Subs.. The first few big doses got me high but after 2 or 3 days I didn't feel it.

Goldmund
08-03-2012, 08:59 AM
What about a kratom habit and starting or trying to get high from bupe/subs?? Must you wait as long???

noahzark
11-23-2012, 09:09 AM
Doctors will tell you that one needs this drug when addicted opiates for at least 6 months or forever. It is a LIE, created for them to make money off of you.

My story.

I was able to use opiates every day for 9 years. I started with OXY but the person who had these dies in an automobile accident and then I only got them once in awhile. I then found a person with access to a "special doctor" who would give huge prescriptionsof of Morphine 100 MG pills and Instant 30's. I would get about 200 to 300, 100 MG time release morphs and maybe 100 30mg instant release pills per month from her. She had AIDS and Hep C and was still an active heroin addict and in addition to this was in a methadone clinic and the doctor did not care or know.

I never missed one day of"getting high or straight". My method of choice was chewing this pills, some brands work better than others but I was addicted.

I had a few periods where because my girl friends would ask me why my eyes were always closing or to enhance sex that I would taper off down to about 200 MG a day but 90% of the time I was into it. During this time I also had another friend who had dilaudid 4 mg and I would bang those I would do this 3 or 4 time a year with a bottle of 100 or two on a binge. Toward the last few years being in Chicago and knowing people who wanted what I had traded, me pure or as they said uncut H. It was hard tan or brown chunks. Often it was too strong to bang. Snorting was enough. I passed out on the floor many times.

You get the drift.

A "best" friend snitched on me for my thing which causes me to acquire in Illinois what they call a class "X" felony which I have been fighting for a year. My lawyer has a bench trial scheduled because the assistant DA wants me to go on vacation for 6 to 30 years for weed only no guns.

I had to get clean and started reading the ultimate sub guide. The first time I went into withdraws was the 13 days I was in Cook County jail for a year ago. They give you some crap drugs if you admit to being addicted but it still messed me up.

Of course feeling sorry formyself when I got bailed out I had a huge binge. Then when I knew the timing of the whole thing I went to a clinic and was honest with them. I decided to be my own doctor. They wanted to give me the 8 MG files and said I had brain damage from the drugs and needed 6 months to a year to get off of these Subs but I insisted on only the 2 MG films and got my way.

It took 6 MG to get me out of horrible withdrawals the first morning it was pure hell. After I felt "normal" I even went out to dinner with my girl friend no lie. She is as strait aS it gets and noticed no difference in me.

The second day for a week I took 2 MG of Sub film a day and feel "normal". After that week I cut the films in half and did 1 MG for 7 days. Right now I am in the middle of one half a MG a day and am doing fine. Yes I cannot sleep well and are addicted to Benzos when I wake up 2 or 3 times a night but it is getting better anddrink almost every night but I have a script for the pills.

Soon I will taper off those because I do not enjoy benzos. I take L-Tyrosine in the morning and HTTP at night too.

Selling you Subs and makingyou take these is a lie for the doctors and drug companies to make money off of"junkies".

To be continued.

noahzark
11-30-2012, 12:17 PM
Down to .5 mg a day and feeling "normal".