PDA

View Full Version : IV users- What to do when you just can't hit? Plz help



Raine
10-28-2012, 06:43 PM
I realize that the healthy way to inject is to rotate sites which I used to do, but it's been almost ten years of this and now when I find a good spot I use it till I can no longer hit or get a clean hit and hunt for another.
Sometimes I can go back to my old ones but because of a lack of having new sharps on hand at all times I have scar tissue to deal with.

I go through periods where my sweet spots just won't work and I cannot hit,
or it takes me half hour+ of poking around to the point where I'm feeling like a pincushion.

I know having sharp needles on hand will help but I don't have an address they can be shipped to and our exchange is great but only open two hours a week, on one day.

Now past the blahbbitty-blah- what do you do when you can't find a vein?

How about IM-img? I love the rush of a good shot in a healthy vein, is it even worth it to try IM-ing? It seems like taking a step back to me, but if it quickened the getting off process I'd be happy to try.

Any suggestions would be nice.
My last "sweet spot" was a vein in my thumb. Little painful but worth it. Any other surprise spot suggestions would be cool.

I tried some in my legs with new points but they swelled and bruised so badly that it wasn't worth it, plus I could only hit about 50% of the time even though I could see the veins- I'm super pale.

LorTabitha
10-28-2012, 06:47 PM
moving to the Harm Reduction subforum

chopstix
10-28-2012, 06:51 PM
It depends on what's in the rig.

Be VERY careful IM'ng blood. Great way to get an abscess..

Omerta
10-28-2012, 07:46 PM
I dont know how to do it, but on the sopranos Christopher shoots in his toe/foot area to hide it from his mob buddies. I know its TV, but im sure its possible. I have seen in documentaries people shoot in thier jugular vein in the neck (really un-safe I bet, so i dont condone it). How bout the vein on the back of your forearm? Probably done that also with ten plus years of using. Seen girls even shoot it in some vein near the chest area.

SeVeN
10-28-2012, 08:10 PM
It depends on what's in the rig.

Be VERY careful IM'ng blood. Great way to get an abscess..


Beat me to it.

hophead
10-28-2012, 08:26 PM
Have you tried your breasts? I've known several women who were daily users with this problem and they would include their breasts in the rotation; they were also careful to use new sharps in that area though. Also, being pale should work to your benefit.
Do you have any of the small green ones in your thighs? Some of them work surprizingly well.
As someone already asked, what are you injecting? If its tar be sure to check out the thread on how to clean it up.
External jugulars work well also. But once again, if its tar clean it up first.

fauxflavored
10-28-2012, 08:27 PM
i ALWAYS hit. but my arms are like a junky's dream. veins everywhere.

Fat Pie
10-28-2012, 08:34 PM
I dont know how to do it, but on the sopranos Christopher shoots in his toe/foot area to hide it from his mob buddies. I know its TV, but im sure its possible.

I actually copied that when I was starting out. It did work.

opi8
10-28-2012, 08:40 PM
I've heard you don't get as much of a rush from shooting in the feet, any truth to that FP? Also heard that shooting in the feet can be dangerous because if you fuck up and miss having such poor circulation in your feet, compared to your arms for example, can lead to complications.

I'm sure one of our helpful healthcare pro's can shed some light on that

Happy Pillmore
10-28-2012, 08:45 PM
I dont know how to do it, but on the sopranos Christopher shoots in his toe/foot area to hide it from his mob buddies. I know its TV, but im sure its possible. I have seen in documentaries people shoot in thier jugular vein in the neck (really un-safe I bet, so i dont condone it). How bout the vein on the back of your forearm? Probably done that also with ten plus years of using. Seen girls even shoot it in some vein near the chest area.

Dude, this board is aimed at harm reduction, not 'i saw some bullshit on tv, try this'.
Thats a fictional show, this is real life.
Quit posting shit you have no clue about.

Raine
10-28-2012, 09:09 PM
Well I originally misplaced the post in the Heroin forum. I'm shooting powder dope, not much cut and I double filter regardless.

I found two places in my feet, the vein that runs along the top of the foot but they're tapped out temporarily,
at least.
Can't figure out the toe thing. I haven't tried my chest though so I'll do some hunting and I can't really reach the back of my arm, I have nasty joint pain in my elbows which makes that sort of thing tricky.
Thanks for the info, if anyone else has suggestions keep 'em coming.
I'm female of average body weight, my veins do not stick out at all but are sometimes visible because of being so pale.

I often run my hands and arms under the hottest water I can stand for as long as I can stand, dry em off and try again which can help.

Tried the jugular earlier but I just couldn't angle the needle right, I think I'd need one with a shorter barrel.

fauxflavored
10-28-2012, 09:24 PM
I actually copied that when I was starting out. It did work.

a few years ago i had a g/f that didn't approve of my using. so i tried to shoot in a nice vein i found in my calf. i missed, and said fuck doing that ever again. bitch can just bust me in the future.

Der Alte Krieger
10-28-2012, 09:38 PM
I realize that the healthy way to inject is to rotate sites which I used to do, but it's been almost ten years of this and now when I find a good spot I use it till I can no longer hit or get a clean hit and hunt for another.
Sometimes I can go back to my old ones but because of a lack of having new sharps on hand at all times I have scar tissue to deal with.

I go through periods where my sweet spots just won't work and I cannot hit,
or it takes me half hour+ of poking around to the point where I'm feeling like a pincushion.

I know having sharp needles on hand will help but I don't have an address they can be shipped to and our exchange is great but only open two hours a week, on one day.

Now past the blahbbitty-blah- what do you do when you can't find a vein?

How about IM-img? I love the rush of a good shot in a healthy vein, is it even worth it to try IM-ing? It seems like taking a step back to me, but if it quickened the getting off process I'd be happy to try.

Any suggestions would be nice.
My last "sweet spot" was a vein in my thumb. Little painful but worth it. Any other surprise spot suggestions would be cool.

I tried some in my legs with new points but they swelled and bruised so badly that it wasn't worth it, plus I could only hit about 50% of the time even though I could see the veins- I'm super pale.

You didn't mention whether you were shooting tar or whatbut I'm guessing that you are.
I know that one of our beloved forum members IMs BTH quite frequently on account of she wrote me out detailed instructions for my son who is a walking collection of bruises and abscesses. He tried it for awhile but quit, claiming that it reduced the effects too much. He feels it was possibly because he was shooting 2 grams a day at the time and says that he plans to try it again soon, now that hes tapered a bit.
If you would like the instructions for IMing tar,PM me and I'll send them to you.

When I started shooting dope in the 60s it was a real chore to get rigs at all, no needle exchanges at all and the druggist would make you show proof that you were a diabetic before they would let you have anything.
Most of us used junkie works, that is, a needle attached to an eyedropper, usually with a baby pacifier replacing the bulb. This kind of set up eliminates the need to move the needle when you push the shot in as it is self registering.
you just tap it in with light taps on the end of the bulb and when you hit , you see blood automatically. I never used to see people having to hit in their necks and all like that back then. Of course we weren't shooting tar,either

This method of injection is for trained, professional junkies only, don't try this at home!

Omerta
10-28-2012, 09:55 PM
Dude, this board is aimed at harm reduction, not 'i saw some bullshit on tv, try this'.
Thats a fictional show, this is real life.
Quit posting shit you have no clue about.
Funny you mention the sopranos toe shooting, but not the jugular. Its not like I said "hey I saw a guy fly on tv, give it a try". There are plenty of people who shoot dope in their feet. That is just an example where I first saw it, because I did not use then. I guess I should of said "i saw a friend shoot in their feet" instead. My apologies.

candy
10-28-2012, 09:55 PM
Some way to find veins is to take a very warm shower, this can help bring veins to the surface or cover a couple of spots you think may work with a warm compress to help brings veins to the surface. Engaging in some exercise to get your blood pressure up also helps.

Using sharps does really make a difference. Is there someone who knows of your use that would be willing to have needles sent to you at their home. Using needles a few times or more can really dull them and this makes for more scarring and that does not help. If you are going to IM, you want to use a needle that is at least 1" to 1 1/2" in length. Insulin syringes are not going to get you an IM injection. All they are good for is a injection into the skin and this will lead to abscesses faster than IM injections.

As I said, if you can find someone willing to let you use their address, you can order detachable needles and syringes for use for IM injections.
I know that there are some who will tell you that you can use an insulin syringe, if that is what you are using, to inject in the muscle, such as the deltoid. This just isn't so. Even tin the deltoid muscle, you would need a needle at least 1" in length.

Is it possible for you to get to the exchange you were talking about. I realize it is once a week for only a few hours, but it is worth it to get sharp needles. Nothing is going to scar and tear your veins up faster than a dull needle.

Maybe give injecting a rest and find another route of administration. And using your lower extremities is a bad idea because the circulation in the lower extremities, your legs is much slower than your upper body and this can lead to problems; clots, infection, and decrease your circulation even more.

I would imagine you are using a tourniquet. Sometimes investing in some small hand weights or lifting a large can of fruit or something heavy and doing some reps with both arms can help bring veins to the surface.

The problem is, it is going to take a long time to get your veins back. The scarring does not go away. You may find years later that some veins come back, but most of the time, they don't because of built up scar tissue.

You also want to treat missed shot. With a miss, massage the area and put warm compresses on the area for a few days. This helps with healing the area and the solution that was missed is absorbed faster, which will decrease your chance of forming an abscess.

Some medical supply sites will ship to P.O. Boxes. I don't know any of hand, but maybe someone else will that chimes in or you can do a search yourself.
If you do use the needle exchange, they can also hook you up with needles and syringes for IM injections.

Hope this info is of some help.
Best of luck to you....

Matt
10-28-2012, 10:00 PM
Hips, jugular, femoral, spots behind your arm you don't usually hit. Slamming below the knees is a waste.

candy
10-28-2012, 10:03 PM
Have you tried your breasts? I've known several women who were daily users with this problem and they would include their breasts in the rotation; they were also careful to use new sharps in that area though. Also, being pale should work to your benefit.
Do you have any of the small green ones in your thighs? Some of them work surprizingly well.
As someone already asked, what are you injecting? If its tar be sure to check out the thread on how to clean it up.
External jugulars work well also. But once again, if its tar clean it up first.

Please do not use your breasts. There are milk ducts very close the veins you may be hitting and because there is no direct blood supply to the inside of the ducts, the fluid can remain there and you can develop mastitis or an abscess. The risks far outweigh the benefits of this and I don't recommend it for any woman. This is bad HR advice.

Also, your feet is just as dangerous as the legs.

Maybe give injecting a break unless you can find a way to inject IM with the right equipment.

Omerta
10-28-2012, 10:14 PM
The hot shower is something I used to do. Along with push ups/lifting weights. But you could be in the same boat death row criminals are. Sometimes they cant be put to death because their IV drug use is so bad no vein can be found, or it just takes along time for them to eventually die. Even a doctor cant hit a vein.

Fat Pie
10-28-2012, 10:34 PM
The hot shower is something I used to do. Along with push ups/lifting weights. But you could be in the same boat death row criminals are. Sometimes they cant be put to death because their IV drug use is so bad no vein can be found, or it just takes along time for them to eventually die. Even a doctor cant hit a vein.

And because of the Hippocratic Oath (along with a blanket ban imposed by the AMA), medical professionals themselves will not carry out the procedure, so it is performed by inexperienced prison staff. There are all sorts of horror stories about IV lines becoming clogged, taking ages to find a vein on some prisoners, even injecting into the muscle, which is incredibly painful and prolongs the time until death well past acceptable limits:

http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=46

There are some serious downsides to having fucked up veins.

jill
10-28-2012, 10:56 PM
I was going to echo Candy's posts, however, I'll just add one thing. If you are able, have (the availability and feel 'ok' enough), try filling a bath tub with very warm water and taking a good 10+ minute bath, preferably 15 mins or so.

If this doesn't sound appealing, or is not available, the try a good warm shower for 10-15 minutes really concentrating on neck and below (DO NOT try to use the jugular, etc.)- just suggesting it for soaking or showering so as to get all the tributaries warmed up and enlarged. Look around while you are in the tub after at least 5+ minutes of soaking.

While this isn't an ideal or convenient situation some of the time, it beats trying when you haven't prepped an area this well! I would say, give it a shot...haha, you have nothing to lose, as you will look somewhat while you are in the tub too.

Good luck, if you try this, it really can make things much easier!

hyguy
10-28-2012, 11:18 PM
A little trick I've had some sucses with is using a realy bright flash light slowly moved across the skin to help locate the viens that are a little deeper works somewhat for me. It takes a little practice but definatly worth a shot if you own a flash light.

Michael.
10-28-2012, 11:31 PM
Dude, this board is aimed at harm reduction, not 'i saw some bullshit on tv, try this'.
Thats a fictional show, this is real life.
Quit posting shit you have no clue about.
+1

Funny you mention the sopranos toe shooting, but not the jugular. Its not like I said "hey I saw a guy fly on tv, give it a try". There are plenty of people who shoot dope in their feet. That is just an example where I first saw it, because I did not use then. I guess I should of said "i saw a friend shoot in their feet" instead. My apologies.
He wasn't so much saying it's not possible, he was just saying it's not a good idea to offer advice on something you aren't 110% on.

Omerta
10-28-2012, 11:41 PM
+1

He wasn't so much saying it's not possible, he was just saying it's not a good idea to offer advice on something you aren't 110% on.

I know 110% it is POSSIBLE to iv in the foot. So did she, she tried it. The HP said its not smart though, I would go on what candy says (obviously). Blood clots are scary, silent killers. I know a neighbor who had surgery, went home, and died from a blood clot. Was only 44.

havok
10-28-2012, 11:52 PM
I have no veins left on my body either. I have seriously hit every single possible spot that there is on the human body, and all of the veins are collapsed or scarred to the point where it makes it difficult to hit. I have used my neck, femoral (groin), legs, feet, hands, fingers, palms of the hands (very painful), inside of the fingers, toes, armpit, chest, stomach, back of knees, and everywhere on my arms and legs. I can still hit a vein if I really want to you, but its just not worth it because its a pain in the ass and I don't want to lose the few I do have left.

So, what I do now is IM (black tar). I actually like IM'ing. To me, it provides just as good a high as IV. The best part is, I no longer have to spend hours poking myself trying to find a vein. As soon as the shot is ready, its going into my body. That right there makes all the difference in the world. The main difference from IV'ing is the onset is slower for IM, but it still hits me fairly quickly (like 2-5 min). With good dope, I will still get a rush from IM. I have never gotten an abcess from IM'ing either, and I have been doing it for several years, at least 3-5 shots per day. I rotate my injection sites obviously, but I mostly just use my shoulders.


On a side note, the reason I have no veins left is from using dull needles. Where I lived, it was very hard to get new needles, so I would reuse the same needles over and over again. I really wish I would have used new needles more often back then, but when I was deep in my addiction, all I cared about was NOW. I didn't think about the future. I just wanted to get that one shot in me. I definitely regret it now. So to everyone out there that still has veins: USE NEW NEEDLES!




I've heard you don't get as much of a rush from shooting in the feet, any truth to that FP? Also heard that shooting in the feet can be dangerous because if you fuck up and miss having such poor circulation in your feet, compared to your arms for example, can lead to complications.

I'm sure one of our helpful healthcare pro's can shed some light on that

Shooting in your feet works fine. I have done it countless times. You get the same rush you would hitting a vein anywhere else in your body.




The hot shower is something I used to do. Along with push ups/lifting weights. But you could be in the same boat death row criminals are. Sometimes they cant be put to death because their IV drug use is so bad no vein can be found, or it just takes along time for them to eventually die. Even a doctor cant hit a vein.
This is me right there. LOL. The last time I was in the hospital, the nurses were trying to find a vein on me
to draw blood, and they couldn't. They kept trying all over my body. They even tried to hit my neck and they couldn't even find a vein there. Finally after being poked all over for a good 30 minutes, I told the nurse to use my femoral vein (because I knew that would work), and you know what she told me? The nurse said "OMG we can't use that vein, that is way too dangerous". Hah, little did they know I was using it to slam heroin every day.





If you would like the instructions for IMing tar,PM me and I'll send them to you.
IM'ing tar is just like IM'ing anything else. Its pretty basic. I don't think you need "instructions". You prepare the shot just like you would for IV'ing and then you stick the needle straight in to a muscle like your shoulder or thigh (try and get it as deep into the muscle as you can) and push the plunger. LOL

Der Alte Krieger
10-29-2012, 12:02 AM
Please do not use your breasts. There are milk ducts very close the veins you may be hitting and because there is no direct blood supply to the inside of the ducts, the fluid can remain there and you can develop mastitis or an abscess. The risks far outweigh the benefits of this and I don't recommend it for any woman. This is bad HR advice.

I don't know anything about mastitis in humans but I have treated numerous cases in Bovines, Equines and Caperines, as well as gangrene mastitis and if the terms, "abscess" and "mastitis" don't scare you ,let me tell you, if you had ever seen Gangrene mastitis, that term would have you pissing in your boots. Think of worse than Krokidile.

Breasts are such lovely structures, ladies ,please take care of them!

havok
10-29-2012, 12:59 AM
If you are going to IM, you want to use a needle that is at least 1" to 1 1/2" in length. Insulin syringes are not going to get you an IM injection. All they are good for is a injection into the skin and this will lead to abscesses faster than IM injections.

I know that there are some who will tell you that you can use an insulin syringe, if that is what you are using, to inject in the muscle, such as the deltoid. This just isn't so. Even tin the deltoid muscle, you would need a needle at least 1" in length.
I have heard several people say not to IM with insulin syringes, but I have been doing it for 4+ years with no problems. I have never had an abcess. I use the standard 30g 1/2'' insulin syringes, and they work fine for IM'ing into the shoulder (deltoid) muscle. I just stick the needle straight down into the muscle, and then push down so the needle goes in even deeper. This gets the needle very deep into the muscle.

I actually don't want a needle that is any longer because it would be too deep and it would be close to hitting the bone. I am very skinny and I have low body fat, so my muscles are very defined and close to the surface of my skin.

Now if you are IM'ing somewhere like your thigh or you are somewhat overweight, I could see the reason for needing a longer needle. However, it should be known that insulin syringes can be used for IM injections in the right situations.

Pantopon Pete
10-29-2012, 01:49 AM
I have been IV'ing for aout 10 years now, and have completely exhausted all the veins in my arms and hands. once in a while I will luck out and hit somewhere in my hand or on the wrist area, but those wonderful times are few and far between. I also used my feet for a long time. with pretty decent results. but for the most part I have worn out all of those spots out too.

let me get off topic for a second here: concerning the Sopranos debate. this is 1 of my biggest junkie pet peeves. I don't think anyone is debating that it is possible to inject in your feet. what bothers me is the between the toes bullshit. as far as I can tell, and I have looked, there are no visible, usable veins in between my toes.

now back to the topic at hand. after realizing I have exhausted what I thought was every vein in my body, I started looking at my thighs and calves. now, now it's not like you see giant pipes bursting out of your legs like you do on Virgin arms, but I noticed if you look hard enough for traces of blue, and then kind of just jam the needle home, you come across a whole new realm of usable pipes.

now, like anything else, this takes some trial and error, and of course the risk is slightly higher because of the lower circulation in your legs. also, I find the rush takes like 4 * longer to hit.. and it may seem silly but right after I have finished pushing I lay on the ground and raise my legs over my head. I have found this increases the intensity of the shot, and reduces the amount of time it takes to feel it.

LorTabitha
10-29-2012, 04:00 AM
just a reminder that if you are diabetic DO NOT go near your feet. (if you'd like to keep em, anyway)

candy
10-29-2012, 07:04 AM
I have heard several people say not to IM with insulin syringes, but I have been doing it for 4+ years with no problems. I have never had an abcess. I use the standard 30g 1/2'' insulin syringes, and they work fine for IM'ing into the shoulder (deltoid) muscle. I just stick the needle straight down into the muscle, and then push down so the needle goes in even deeper. This gets the needle very deep into the muscle.

I actually don't want a needle that is any longer because it would be too deep and it would be close to hitting the bone. I am very skinny and I have low body fat, so my muscles are very defined and close to the surface of my skin.

Now if you are IM'ing somewhere like your thigh or you are somewhat overweight, I could see the reason for needing a longer needle. However, it should be known that insulin syringes can be used for IM injections in the right situations.

Havok,
I realize that many people say that insulin syringes work for IM injections, even in the deltoid muscle. This is just not true.
I don't want to make you feel bad, but as a nurse for many years and working in Harm Reduction as well, insulin syringes are made for either injecting into a vein or subcutaneously. You may think you are getting into the muscle, but skin is thicker than you realize and before you even would hit muscle, there is a layer of fat. You can push the needle as far as you like, but you are not hitting deep into the muscle, even in the deltoid muscle.

Sorry to dump this information on you like this, but as I said, all you are doing is giving yourself an injection into the skin. I would not lead you wrong any way and I understand that many people out there give out information, but it is not always safe or correct.

I know what people say, but all you are really doing is giving yourself a subcutaneous injection. 1/2" needle is not going to hit the muscle.

You need a needle length of 1" to 1 1/2" to reach muscle.

You may have never had an abscess and that is great, but the information you are getting is wrong.
Please understand it is not my intention to criticize you, but to correct information here and make sure the right information is getting out there.

You can continue to use this route if you have had success, but it is not an IM injection.

No hard feelings....Candy

The Paregoric Man
10-29-2012, 09:51 AM
Dude, this board is aimed at harm reduction, not 'i saw some bullshit on tv, try this'.
Thats a fictional show, this is real life.
Quit posting shit you have no clue about.

The only place I can be sure to hit is on the top of my right foot, I'm not doing it to hide the track marks it is just one of the few veins I can find. There is also a VERY hard to hit vein in my left arm and that is about it. I have no visible veins, even before I ever IVed and yes it is hell going into the hospital :(

Last time they just put in an access port because they got sick of playing pincushion, I actually left with it in but never got a chance to play with it.

SHELLEY
10-29-2012, 09:58 AM
sometimes i just end up IMing (or sometimes even skinpopping) in frustration
best solution for shitty veins?
leave em alone for a few days
i know, i know, easier said than done
that 30+min of digging and bleeding has been, for the past year or so,
the "last straw" causing me to kick opiates (for the 10000000000th time)
and then start again when my veins come back

--- auto merge ---


I dont know how to do it, but on the sopranos Christopher shoots in his toe/foot area to hide it from his mob buddies. I know its TV, but im sure its possible.

for fuck's sake

opi8
10-29-2012, 10:12 AM
I dont know how to do it, but on the sopranos Christopher shoots in his toe/foot area to hide it from his mob buddies. I know its TV, but im sure its possible. I have seen in documentaries people shoot in thier jugular vein in the neck (really un-safe I bet, so i dont condone it). How bout the vein on the back of your forearm? Probably done that also with ten plus years of using. Seen girls even shoot it in some vein near the chest area.

watch this scene from the sopranos and just look at how much they're getting wrong


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkSoSErQXSk

heating the dope...using a fucking 3cc needle with a 5 inch tip...I hate the way they usually show ppl shooting up on TV

The Paregoric Man
10-29-2012, 10:26 AM
heating the dope...using a fucking 3cc needle with a 5 inch tip...I hate the way they usually show ppl shooting up on TV

Now to be fair perhaps it is a subtle way to show that Chris has no clue what he is doing. Shit ever see the first episode of Nurse Jackie? She snorts whole Avinza pellets, you know the wax beads that are inside the gelcap? Bwaha ha

jill
10-29-2012, 10:41 AM
Just repeating what Candy has said...Please see my not yet completely revised post on IM injections. You NEED at least a 1-1 1/2" needle to SAFELY reach the muscle.

We use one inch (or greater) needles for IM's in peds! So, you are kidding yourself if you think you are getting an IM, as Candy said, you can use it, but it is NOT AN IM injection. Your injections are going SQ, despite what you think.

Please be careful!

@Paregoric Man- If they truly put in an "access port", this is nothing for you to have "played" with anyway. A port requires sterile technique and special access and de-access needles for it (nothing like any "regular" needle). So it is a good thing you didn't get to 'play'....you likely would not be here posting if that was the case!

The Paregoric Man
10-29-2012, 11:35 AM
@Paregoric Man- If they truly put in an "access port", this is nothing for you to have "played" with anyway. A port requires sterile technique and special access and de-access needles for it (nothing like any "regular" needle). So it is a good thing you didn't get to 'play'....you likely would not be here posting if that was the case!

DOH! typo I actually meant they put an IV catheter in my arm, not a port!

odd
10-29-2012, 11:56 AM
I have to IM all my dope since my veins are long long gone. If you are only needed to do it a couple of times you ass cheeks and tops of your shoulders are good spots. Don't make a habit out of it though, my arms ans ass look like fucking hell from a over 2 year IM habit. I prefer IM shots they come on nice and slow (5 to 10 mins) I dig it, then again it's been so long since I have had a straight up IV shot.

Snoops
10-29-2012, 12:34 PM
If I cant register, that mug is goin' right into my shoulder... Back when I was depraved, I would jug it!

Fat Pie
10-29-2012, 07:15 PM
heating the dope...using a fucking 3cc needle with a 5 inch tip...I hate the way they usually show ppl shooting up on TV

Heating's safer for killing bacteria, and I assume the reason they needed to use such large equipment is because it's harder to see the smaller stuff through a camera (and in a car, at night).

Mostly they'll do it the way the viewers think it's done; it's not being done for our convenience, after all.

havok
10-29-2012, 10:43 PM
It most definitely is an IM injection. I know the difference. So I'm sorry, but in this case you are wrong. On MY body insulin syringes work fine for IM. I don't have any fat between my muscle and my skin. I don't appreciate being told I am wrong when I have been IM'ing this way for 5+ years. I have used longer needles (1 1/2'') and the insulin syringes work exactly the same (on my body). So for your information, it is POSSIBLE to IM with an insulin syringe. I know its not the best solution, but it is possible if you can only get insulin syringes.

Havok,
I realize that many people say that insulin syringes work for IM injections, even in the deltoid muscle. This is just not true.
I don't want to make you feel bad, but as a nurse for many years and working in Harm Reduction as well, insulin syringes are made for either injecting into a vein or subcutaneously. You may think you are getting into the muscle, but skin is thicker than you realize and before you even would hit muscle, there is a layer of fat. You can push the needle as far as you like, but you are not hitting deep into the muscle, even in the deltoid muscle.

Sorry to dump this information on you like this, but as I said, all you are doing is giving yourself an injection into the skin. I would not lead you wrong any way and I understand that many people out there give out information, but it is not always safe or correct.

I know what people say, but all you are really doing is giving yourself a subcutaneous injection. 1/2" needle is not going to hit the muscle.

You need a needle length of 1" to 1 1/2" to reach muscle.

You may have never had an abscess and that is great, but the information you are getting is wrong.
Please understand it is not my intention to criticize you, but to correct information here and make sure the right information is getting out there.

You can continue to use this route if you have had success, but it is not an IM injection.

No hard feelings....Candy

LorTabitha
10-30-2012, 07:44 AM
havok, it sounds like your bodytype is the exception rather than the rule, so it's safe to say that for MOST people, Candy's advice is accurate.

Fat Pie
10-30-2012, 07:52 AM
It most definitely is an IM injection. I know the difference. So I'm sorry, but in this case you are wrong. On MY body insulin syringes work fine for IM. I don't have any fat between my muscle and my skin. I don't appreciate being told I am wrong when I have been IM'ing this way for 5+ years. I have used longer needles (1 1/2'') and the insulin syringes work exactly the same (on my body). So for your information, it is POSSIBLE to IM with an insulin syringe. I know its not the best solution, but it is possible if you can only get insulin syringes.

"What might be right for you...", as the song goes.

FeelinWayTooDamnGood
10-30-2012, 07:54 AM
havok, it sounds like your bodytype is the exception rather than the rule, so it's safe to say that for MOST people, Candy's advice is accurate.

I don't know there are a lot of skinny junkies out there. I can definitely get into my muscle with an insulin rig. I've always been pretty well built naturally (good genetics I guess) and can't seem to keep any fat on me no matter how horribly I eat/live but I can put pounds and pounds of muscle on in a short period of time as long as I have a steady protein intake. I've never had an issue getting an IM injection into my muscles with a 1/2" point. I'm 5'11 160'ish right now but that goes up to around 180 in the summer when I'm doing manual labor and a lot of heavy lifting. Very little of it is fat, I haven't done a situp in years and still have something resembling a flat stomach with muscle definition.

LorTabitha
10-30-2012, 08:14 AM
that may be true, but not all junkies IM into the same muscle, and the correct spot on some muscles, no matter how skinny you are, just arent within reach of your typical insulin syringe. havok was talking about using a muscle that is in a very different location than, say, in your hip (a super common IM location)

The Ryan
10-30-2012, 01:14 PM
I can most definitely get into my deltoid with a 1/2" point.

SC burns IM doesn't.

I use long needles on my ass, if i used a one inch needle on my deltoid I swear to god I'd be hitting bone.

quzyke
10-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Same as the rest I tend to IM after I tried for half an hour. The best is drawing up a shot then taking a hot bath and tie off near the best vein. Try the veins in your hand palm, near the thumb works good for me lately. Or the outer side of the hand, below the pinky works too and heals quick.

Der Alte Krieger
10-30-2012, 02:08 PM
There is a school of thought that believes that its better to use a subcutaneous injection when using BTH so that if you do get an abscess it wont be as damaging as one thats deep in the mussel

I ain't got any real strong opinions about this nor a dog in the race, but I was curious what y'all thought.

Comments?

Chipper
10-30-2012, 04:22 PM
There are only 6 options:

1, Keep trying but ONLY after the veins have rested
2. Use sites that you said that you would NEVER use
3. Ask someone else to show you and/or try
4. Anything other than (Dia-)/Morph. and go another ROA like drink it
5. Give up drugs and turn to religion
6. Suicide

FeelinWayTooDamnGood
10-30-2012, 04:46 PM
Same as the rest I tend to IM after I tried for half an hour. The best is drawing up a shot then taking a hot bath and tie off near the best vein. Try the veins in your hand palm, near the thumb works good for me lately. Or the outer side of the hand, below the pinky works too and heals quick.

I use the ones on top of my hand for anything other than good dope. For that I save couple of big pipes I have left. Hot shower definitely works well, and after I tie off I have one of those little squishy stress ball things that I squeeze furiously to try and get them to come up. I have small/deep veins so it took me a long time to master my technique but with a steady hand and lots of practice I can hit almost every time. Haven't missed in months. When hitting the hands I find using a 30g or smaller works best, just push slow and make sure you dont move even an asshair. Since the veins are close to the surface you can tell instantly if you're in or not once you push cuz if you aren't you're gonna have a small bubble under the skin. Not sure if that applies to palms as I've never used my palms, just the top of my hands but I've also gone into those small veins on my wrist right under my hand when the western PA winter temps meant my veins weren't playing nice. I even managed to hit one in a moving car once after I broke my last 1/2" tip and only had one of those little thumbtack half cc rigs. Also if I'm going to score I BLAST the heat in my car until I'm literally sweating and overheating to make sure the blood is flowing nice and fast.

Der Alte Krieger
10-30-2012, 06:30 PM
Something thats always helped me to get my poor abused tubes to the surface is to bend over to where my upper body is lower than my waist (like in the touch your toes position), then swing the selected arm around in circles till the veins fill up due to centrifugal force.
Tie off while still in the position, then rise and go about the standard injection drill.
Sometimes I don't even have to tie off if I stay in the bent over position
Hope this will maybe help someone, works great for me.

smackNcheez
10-30-2012, 10:25 PM
Something thats always helped me to get my poor abused tubes to the surface is to bend over to where my upper body is lower than my waist (like in the touch your toes position), then swing the selected arm around in circles till the veins fill up due to centrifugal force.
Tie off while still in the position, then rise and go about the standard injection drill.
Sometimes I don't even have to tie off if I stay in the bent over position
Hope this will maybe help someone, works great for me.

I've used a similar method for years just cause its easy and quick.

quzyke
10-31-2012, 06:52 AM
Something thats always helped me to get my poor abused tubes to the surface is to bend over to where my upper body is lower than my waist (like in the touch your toes position), then swing the selected arm around in circles till the veins fill up due to centrifugal force.
Tie off while still in the position, then rise and go about the standard injection drill.
Sometimes I don't even have to tie off if I stay in the bent over position
Hope this will maybe help someone, works great for me.

Same, I'm always bent over when hitting arm/hand veins. I hold my tourniquet with my feet (bad, weak teeth) so it makes for some crazy poses at times which my girl finds funny. But definitely brings those fuckers out!

Chipper
10-31-2012, 10:33 PM
Something thats always helped me to get my poor abused tubes to the surface is to bend over to where my upper body is lower than my waist (like in the touch your toes position), then swing the selected arm around in circles till the veins fill up due to centrifugal force.
Tie off while still in the position, then rise and go about the standard injection drill.
Sometimes I don't even have to tie off if I stay in the bent over position
Hope this will maybe help someone, works great for me.

I call that trick the "helicopter", and was shown it by an old junkie ... I prefer getting as much heat as possible, going on, like after a HOT shower (you get [hygiene] clean at the same time).

Der Alte Krieger
10-31-2012, 11:00 PM
I call that trick the "helicopter", and was shown it by an old junkie ... I prefer getting as much heat as possible, going on, like after a HOT shower (you get [hygiene] clean at the same time).

Well, now you can say you heard it from two old Junkies
Old Junkies never die, they just nod away

candy
11-01-2012, 01:44 AM
I don't know there are a lot of skinny junkies out there. I can definitely get into my muscle with an insulin rig. I've always been pretty well built naturally (good genetics I guess) and can't seem to keep any fat on me no matter how horribly I eat/live but I can put pounds and pounds of muscle on in a short period of time as long as I have a steady protein intake. I've never had an issue getting an IM injection into my muscles with a 1/2" point. I'm 5'11 160'ish right now but that goes up to around 180 in the summer when I'm doing manual labor and a lot of heavy lifting. Very little of it is fat, I haven't done a situp in years and still have something resembling a flat stomach with muscle definition.

Regardless of how skinny you are, how much fat you do or don't have, or your body type, an insulin syringe with a 1/2" needle is not getting into the muscle. The skin is quite thick and is not just one layer. Then you have a layer of fat that is thicker than you think and this has nothing to do with how fat or skinny you are. Obviously if we are talking about someone who is emaciated, they have used the fat for energy and are then using muscle for energy to the cells.

I realize that there are many people who are convinced that a 1/2" needle is going to hit muscle, but it just is not so. We use a 1" needle in an infant for an IM injection.

I have worked in healthcare as a nurse for many years and worked in HR for many years. We would never recommend anyone use an insulin syringe with a 1/2" needle for an IM injection. All you are doing is getting into the skin or subcutaneous layers of the skin and you are in no way hitting muscle.

We can argue this point forever and still no matter what some people are told, they continue to believe their friends they inject with, or shit they hear on the street from other users. Here is a healthcare professional telling you different, which I did already in this thread and still you believe you are giving yourself an IM injection.

You run a higher risk of getting an abscess this way. Make sure to massage the area after each injection into the skin. This helps with faster absorption and also increases circulation.

If you want to continue to believe what you have heard or feel to be true, that is cool, but please keep that info to yourself and do not share it with others as it is not correct and can cause someone to get an infection(abscess).

Not trying to be an asshole. Just trying to make sure the correct info gets out there. I believe even Jill mentions in this thread that an insulin syringe is not going to give you an IM.

Please understand that I am only making sure I get the correct HR info out there and if people are thinking that 1/2" needles are going to work for an IM, even in the deltoid, they are mistaken and we need to correct that information.

I would make sure that you are using a filter if you are using your dope this way and filter well. If you are injecting pills, I recommend the same. Invest in some filters if you are going to inject this way.

Matt
11-01-2012, 01:51 AM
I don't know if stuff that's actually made for injection is an exception, but it seems like you just cannot be shooting shit for a long term period because the veins eventually hide or give out completely. I know BTH is some extra-rotten shit to be constantly shooting, but it seems that everyone has problems after a while. It seems really easy if/when you develop good enough technique to where you can hit pretty easily in sites that you wouldn't have been able to before.

FeelinWayTooDamnGood
11-01-2012, 08:11 AM
Regardless of how skinny you are, how much fat you do or don't have, or your body type, an insulin syringe with a 1/2" needle is not getting into the muscle. The skin is quite thick and is not just one layer. Then you have a layer of fat that is thicker than you think and this has nothing to do with how fat or skinny you are. Obviously if we are talking about someone who is emaciated, they have used the fat for energy and are then using muscle for energy to the cells.

I realize that there are many people who are convinced that a 1/2" needle is going to hit muscle, but it just is not so. We use a 1" needle in an infant for an IM injection.

I have worked in healthcare as a nurse for many years and worked in HR for many years. We would never recommend anyone use an insulin syringe with a 1/2" needle for an IM injection. All you are doing is getting into the skin or subcutaneous layers of the skin and you are in no way hitting muscle.

We can argue this point forever and still no matter what some people are told, they continue to believe their friends they inject with, or shit they hear on the street from other users. Here is a healthcare professional telling you different, which I did already in this thread and still you believe you are giving yourself an IM injection.

You run a higher risk of getting an abscess this way. Make sure to massage the area after each injection into the skin. This helps with faster absorption and also increases circulation.

If you want to continue to believe what you have heard or feel to be true, that is cool, but please keep that info to yourself and do not share it with others as it is not correct and can cause someone to get an infection(abscess).

Not trying to be an asshole. Just trying to make sure the correct info gets out there. I believe even Jill mentions in this thread that an insulin syringe is not going to give you an IM.

Please understand that I am only making sure I get the correct HR info out there and if people are thinking that 1/2" needles are going to work for an IM, even in the deltoid, they are mistaken and we need to correct that information.

I would make sure that you are using a filter if you are using your dope this way and filter well. If you are injecting pills, I recommend the same. Invest in some filters if you are going to inject this way.


I'm sorry, I recognize your experience and profession and that your protocol may dictate to never use a 1/2" tip but you're simply wrong on this one. I may not be a health-care professional but I have taken plenty of anatomy and physio classes and skin averages 0.05 inches thick, even the thickest skin is only about .2 inches (in your back, where those people who like to do the suspending thing hang the hooks). That leaves ample room to penetrate all layers of skin and SC tissue in areas where there is little SC tissue. This is especially true for those of us with very little fat that have thin SCT layers. In fact, according to this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16553688) you should not be using a 1" point on infants, especially boys. They actually recommend one shorter than a 1/2" (12.5mm).

I'd like to believe I'm smart enough to not just believe junkie myths (god only knows how many times I've been told that you can't shoot suboxone, or that subutex "doesn't have the blocker") and reach my own conclusions based on the information available to me. That information leads me to believe that you've been misled on exactly how thick skin and SCT is. I'm not trying to be an asshole either, and in the interest of HR I'd recommend using a longer point if one is available, all I'm saying is that is absolutely viable for someone of my build to hit their muscle with a 1/2" point and you can ignore that all you want but I know it to be the truth.

candy
11-01-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm sorry, I recognize your experience and profession and that your protocol may dictate to never use a 1/2" tip but you're simply wrong on this one. I may not be a health-care professional but I have taken plenty of anatomy and physio classes and skin averages 0.05 inches thick, even the thickest skin is only about .2 inches (in your back, where those people who like to do the suspending thing hang the hooks). That leaves ample room to penetrate all layers of skin and SC tissue in areas where there is little SC tissue. This is especially true for those of us with very little fat that have thin SCT layers. In fact, according to this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16553688) you should not be using a 1" point on infants, especially boys. They actually recommend one shorter than a 1/2" (12.5mm).

I'd like to believe I'm smart enough to not just believe junkie myths (god only knows how many times I've been told that you can't shoot suboxone, or that subutex "doesn't have the blocker") and reach my own conclusions based on the information available to me. That information leads me to believe that you've been misled on exactly how thick skin and SCT is. I'm not trying to be an asshole either, and in the interest of HR I'd recommend using a longer point if one is available, all I'm saying is that is absolutely viable for someone of my build to hit their muscle with a 1/2" point and you can ignore that all you want but I know it to be the truth.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. You may have taken your A&P classes, but I have been working in healthcare for close to 20 years and I doubt that the information I have gained in this time, plus going to nursing school, and working in both adult care and pediatric care, when you give an IM injection, it is to be given deep into the muscle. That is the point of an IM injection. There is just no way a 1/2" needle is going to go deep into the muscle. If you want to continue to argue this point, maybe we can get Jill to chime in here as well. She is even more experienced than I and would tell you the same thing I am trying to tell you.

Insulin syringes of 1/2" needle length or a needle of a 1/2" needle length is not giving you an IM injection. When diabetics are given insulin, it is meant to be given Subcutaneously and a needle length of 1/2" does not reach muscle.

We can argue about this all day. I don't like to be a show-off when it comes to my credentials, but I am also a certified Diabetic Educator and I can tell you with 100% certainty that a 1/2" needle is not hitting muscle. You are penetrating the skin and fat layer, but it is not long enough to penetrate muscle.
But we are not talking about pediatrics. You are a grown man and regardless of how much fat you think you don't have a 1/2" needle is not giving you and IM injection.

SQ injections are given into the loose connective tissue just below the dermis.

I don't want this to turn into some argument. I am giving the facts I know based on information I have received in my years of working and training and also following guidelines that we would use if we were talking HR.

You can continue to do what you like, but I am going to continue to give out information I know to be safe and effective here. I have worked in HR for quite some time, along with my other areas of nursing, so I am just going to say we can agree to disagree.

For HR purposes, it is best not to use a needle that is less than 1" for an IM injection. I am going to stand firm on this and if you want to continue to argue this point, go right ahead. I have stated what I know to be true in adults.

Just to clarify, in pediatrics, we sometimes do use an needle less than 1", but that depends on the site, what is given, and if there are any abnormalities that would make using a 1" needle ineffective. There are always many factors to consider with infants and children, but a 1" needle is most often used. There are arguments that a one inch needle is to long and will over penetrate the muscle, but this depends on the size of the child and most often smaller children, but still a 1" needle is the go to length for an IM injection into the thigh. With newborns(0-28 days) a 5/8" needle is used in the thigh muscle. In infants(1-12 months) a 1"needle is used in the thigh.

In a toddler(1-2 years) an 1-1/4" needle is used in the thigh and a 5/8" to 1" needle is used in the deltoid muscle.

You are free to continue using your own method and you can continue to post how it is effective in giving an IM injection, but I will continue to caution those who choose to inject via IM that they use a 1" to 1 1/2" needle depending on the site.

If you feel your experience is more significant than my own that is fine, I am not offended.

But for the purposes of HR, as I said before, I will continue to advise using a needle length of 1 inch.
JUst remember that an IM injection is meant to be given deep into the muscle and a 1/2" needle is just not going to get deep into the muscle.

Also in the article you sited, this is about SQ injections and when administering insulin it stated that a 12.5 mm needle should be used for boys and it also depends on how the injection is given. Most often insulin injections are given by skin folding and it also said it may decrease the possibility of an IM injection. But this is not a deep injection as one should be given, but when the needle just enters the muscle and that is not how IM injections are to be given in any age.

That is all I have to say on this subject. I think I gave enough information and you can do what you like.

jill
11-01-2012, 03:35 PM
Despite, Candy's closed thread, I will add a few points, regardless.
Candy has given more than enough information and credentials here than she needs to, I could give even more, including many advanced certifications which I am not going to list because of liability and personal reasons, along with 25+ years in health care...and the fact that they don't NEED to be mentioned.

However, you are flat out wrong if you think less than a one inch needle should be used for an IM injection. You can call your injection what you want all day long, but it isn't getting into the muscle sufficiently. Even in this picture, this point is barely in deep enough into the striated portion of muscle. What you are ignoring is despite how thin (how little SQ tissue aka 'fat' tissue a person has), the skin is a very thick complicated structure alone, if it wasn't, there wouldn't even BE the ABMS Board Certification of DERMATOLOGY. It wouldn't be necessary if skin was so thin and so "simple".

http://www.steroid.com/images/inject_04.gif This is not the BEST picture by ANY means, it is more for demonstration of needle angle, but it is a one inch needle going into the skin (which is shown considerably thinner than it really is, and the fat, which is often considerably thicker than it usually is, and the point of the needle, still barely making it into the muscle for a good IM injection!). It's in and would be "ok", but is it "ideal"? No. I go considerably deeper with my B12 IM injections, using a 1-1/2" needle and am about 105 lbs right now. A half inch needle, if lucky, will just meet where the fat in this picture and the muscle meet, but will not go INTO the muscle.

Call it what you want, think what you want, we aren't going to change your minds, but you're incorrect. You can look at the 2 posts/stickies of IM injection techniques, but I assume you aren't interested, so we'll leave it here.

Do as you wish.

candy
11-01-2012, 07:26 PM
Despite, Candy's closed thread, I will add a few points, regardless.
Candy has given more than enough information and credentials here than she needs to, I could give even more, including many advanced certifications which I am not going to list because of liability and personal reasons, along with 25+ years in health care...and the fact that they don't NEED to be mentioned.

However, you are flat out wrong if you think less than a one inch needle should be used for an IM injection. You can call your injection what you want all day long, but it isn't getting into the muscle sufficiently. Even in this picture, this point is barely in deep enough into the striated portion of muscle. What you are ignoring is despite how thin (how little SQ tissue aka 'fat' tissue a person has), the skin is a very thick complicated structure alone, if it wasn't, there wouldn't even BE the ABMS Board Certification of DERMATOLOGY. It wouldn't be necessary if skin was so thin and so "simple".

http://www.steroid.com/images/inject_04.gif This is not the BEST picture by ANY means, it is more for demonstration of needle angle, but it is a one inch needle going into the skin (which is shown considerably thinner than it really is, and the fat, which is often considerably thicker than it usually is, and the point of the needle, still barely making it into the muscle for a good IM injection!). It's in and would be "ok", but is it "ideal"? No. I go considerably deeper with my B12 IM injections, using a 1-1/2" needle and am about 105 lbs right now. A half inch needle, if lucky, will just meet where the fat in this picture and the muscle meet, but will not go INTO the muscle.

Call it what you want, think what you want, we aren't going to change your minds, but you're incorrect. You can look at the 2 posts/stickies of IM injection techniques, but I assume you aren't interested, so we'll leave it here.

Do as you wish.

Thanks Jill,
I appreciate you coming in here and backing me up on this. All we can continue to do is give out the correct information. With the combined education we both have and the certifications we both have, we are more than enough in terms of expertise in this area to give out the best and most informed information available.

I am not here to change minds, only to give out good info and HR. That is what we do.

I thought about a few diagrams, but was posting in between school breaks and did not have the time.

I didn't even know I closed the thread. Must of been my touchy fingers again, but it is better left closed at this point and if anyone has any problem with the information we have provided, they can contact us or we can possibly open the thread again if the information is pertinent to the topic and is not harmful in anyway.

I am not going to argue with anyone here. I know my stuff and so do you. A few A & P classes cannot make up for years of Nursing and working in HR myself and your added education and experience. I know that may come off as sarcasm , but it really is more just a fact and not meant to offend FWTDG(the OP) or anyone else here. It is only to point out that with our experience and knowledge that we would not post any information that was not correct or meant to harm anyone and we need to make sure that information that can be harmful, is dealt with by explaining the correct method or we give the correct information on that topic.

Thanks for adding what you did Jill.

jill
11-01-2012, 07:37 PM
Well, neither of us are here to change minds, as we both said, "do as you wish, think as you wish, call it as you wish, but you are wrong because....x, y, z". We also more than enough answered the OP's question of how to get veins "up" when the are "lost", as well as good suggestions from members.

A bathtub plus a transilluminator afterwards (flashlight in a darkroom at home) is really a great option.

I think we have done all we can here and if an anyone has a different type question that is along the same lines, but not going up the same route of just argument again, they should post the specific question in a new thread and we (or others) can answer it accordingly.

Everyone's done their job here, let's just let this rest with the good information it has in it, as is! (Even though you didn't know you had closed it, it was perfect timing, regardless!)