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View Full Version : IV morphine sulphate vs morphine hydrochloride



Seedy
09-27-2012, 11:28 PM
Down our end of the world, if we can't get acetic anhydride to turn out morphine into something resembling heroin, I'm told the custom is to change it to morphine hydrochloride. I'm yet to try this, but a friend of mine is going to give me a taste tomorrow. Apparently the hit is far superior to standard MS - about half way between MS and good homebake.

To make morphine hcl it's basically a matter of heating up the crushed morphine pill with a pinch of baking soda, heating, drying, then adding a small amount of hydrochloric acid and heating again.

Can anyone explain why changing to another salt would make a difference?

underide
09-28-2012, 04:35 AM
I think i actually read somewhere or had it explained that hydrochloride salts are much more lipophilic, giving it a more rapid rate and amount of absorption.
That's the only explanation i can think of and it kind of makes sense if you're talking about the intravenous route specifically.. If however, you were to compare both orally, i suspect there isn't much difference between the two.
Maybe boro or someone else can weigh in on this more thoroughly.

Michael
09-28-2012, 04:58 AM
I've heard of this. Maybe even talked with you about it? Basically done the same way you do a homebake with hcl acid instead of AA. Pretty simple and not a bad hit. It's a step up from a cook down with Glack (glacial acetic acid) and a step down from regular ol dub

borohydride
09-28-2012, 05:26 AM
Since only freebase morphine can pass the BBB, the only advantage is that the HCl (bring a weaker acid) may disproportionate faster but I don't imagine it could make much difference. File under 'myth'.

underide
09-28-2012, 06:12 AM
I knew i read this somewhere- (from another discussion group):

"for the average user there is alot of difference, when taking the medication, as the Morphine made with (Salt) Morphine Sulfate have a higher content of the actaul Opiate Molecule this type is much stronger on some users.
Morhine sulfate is a heavier drug molecule therefore the expression of milligrams will contain less actual morphine than the same Miligram amount of HCI."

They went on to explain that although there IS a very slight difference in effect (depending on your preferred ROA) that the difference is largely negligible in reality.

I can't speculate from experience on this precise topic, but if it were me, i'd take it for basically thinking that unless you have a rather considerable amount to play around with, you might as well leave it as it is. (But then i gather that if there are a lot of people doing this, there must be SOME truth to that)
It's up to you though, obviously and ofcourse i know that theory and experience are two VERY different things, so only way that you personally can know is by trying.

I find that the preference of different variables in terms of chemical variations of drug form as well as ROA, is HIGHLY subjective.
The simplest example of that is the debate on which ROA is 'faster/better/more-efficient - i.e. some will swear by smoking freebase, others will say it's injecting hcl, I really think that it's up to end user how he will perceive the end result.
Personally, i have done my fare share of comparing smoking to injecting (heroin, crack and most recently - speed) trying to compare the effects of smoking versus IV, and in case of EVERY single drug, even being so different from each other, smoking any of these never quite reached the same results as shooting.
Some will disagree. All subjective, IMO and some of this may even be also contributed to habit, experience and psychological drive.

More Feen
09-28-2012, 06:27 AM
The only thing I can add is the idea of a BASE CONVERSION.

MS is ~75%, while M-HCl is ~89% (for the monohydrate and), and 76% (for M-HCl trihydrate).

This means that 10mg of MS roughly equals 7.5mg of morphine base (the difference is the added weight of the sulphate group and the pentahydrate).

Same thing with M-HCl, except that the HCl group weighs less, and only forms a mono, or tri-hydrate. So 10 mg of M-HCl (monohydrate) has 8.9mg of morphine in it, while 10mg of M-HCl (trihydrate) contains 7.6mg of morphine.

So, mg for mg, M-HCl will be slightly stronger than MS, since, for that same weight (mass) you will have more morphine in it. Just a little more.

Now it does NOT make any sense for you to convert MS to M-HCl. Taking 10mg of MS, and freeing the base, will yield ~7.5mg of morphine base.

Acidifying that 7.5mg with HCl cannot increase the morphine content. You would end-up making 8.4mg of M-HCl, but the base conversion is still going to be 7.5mg

Additionally, baking soda may not be a strong enough base to free the morphine base. You need a pH of 9.1 or so, and baking soda (esp. a "pinch") just doesn't get you there.

M F

(Here are some base conversions) The number on the far right

Morphine Base 1.0
Morphine (H2O) 0.94
Morphine Acetate 0.71
Morphine Hydrobromide 0.78
Morphine Hydrobromide (2H2O) 0.71
Morphine Hydrochloride 0.89
Morphine Hydrochloride (3H2O) 0.76
Morphine Hydriodide (2H2O) 0.64
Morphine Lactate 0.76
Morphine Meconate (5H2O) 0.66
Morphine Nitrate 0.82
Morphine Phosphate (1/2 H2O) 0.73
Morphine Phosphate (7H2O) 0.73
Morphine Sulfate (5H2O) 0.75
Morphine Tartrate (3H2O) 0.74
Morphine Valerate 0.74
Morphine Methylbromide 0.75
Morphine Methylsulfonate 0.75

tethersendcocktail
09-28-2012, 09:54 AM
Nick should be able to contribute to "IV morphine sulphate" threads, given as he gets several a day for free off Queen Elizabeth and co., and so has hit them up for years. Surprised to not see him here already.

Seedy
09-28-2012, 04:28 PM
I think i actually read somewhere or had it explained that hydrochloride salts are much more lipophilic, giving it a more rapid rate and amount of absorption.

from the description i've been given this seems like a more likely explanation than a change in molecular weight. i'm pretty sure this is no myth. i've had it explained as a 'bigger and more sustained rush' than ms. remember we're talking specifically about iv here. i'll find out soon, anyway. it's been a while since i've had morphine though, since before i got on 'done, so this will be pretty subjective in it's effects.

--- auto merge ---

well i tried it, only 50mg so wasn't expecting much on top of the 'done (did the shot 20 mins after my morning dose so it def wouldn't have kicked in but still, i'm on 'done). i got a surprisingly large histamine release, more like what i'd expect from 60-100mg, followed by a minor buzz... not much else. so while my results weren't spectacular, i still think there's something to this. if i had access to cheap morphine i'd do some more experimentation.

mamasou
10-13-2012, 06:35 AM
Seedy, if you ever have the chance again, try basing it out cleanly and then try smoking it.

It is an interesting experiment. I assume not nearly as intense as IV, but it is worth trying it.

As for the salt differences, I must agree with boron and MF. Must be just a matter of conversion when calculating your exact dose and nothing more.