withdrawal help? Do you think SWIM will be ok?

[Podcom]

Hey guys, SWIM is starting a kick today/ tommorow and SWIM wanted to get your input/advice on his/her preperations and comfort meds that they stock piled up...

30 1MG XANAX
Loperamide
6 somas
and unlimited 8mg subs, but doesnt want to use Bupe as a long term maitenence to maintain, would just prefer to use as much as it takes to get through....

SWIM has had a $100/ day china white heroin habbit for the past 2 months. Using it whenever wanted (daily) because cash flow was good. Still have a relatively small shot left and its Friday morning.

SWIM would like to be half way well atleast on Saturday morning for work(short shift at work in the morning, like from 930-12:30 and its Friday morning right now. SWIM used a substantial ammount of their gear last night and only has a small shot left over.

This person took work off sunday and monday to get through the worst of it and obviously use the comfort meds when work resumes tuesday.

A few concerns may be: how much bupe to take to get by. How much xanax is typically needed( I know everyone is different.) And When would be the best time to take somas. And is there something that could be added to this concocsion? (sp?)

They would like to be feeling as good as possible by tuesday, obviously WD'S are going to last longer. But as everyone knows, I think the only thing worse than working a long day at your job dope sick would be getting full fist treatment up the ass without even a cuddle afterwards.

SWIM really doesnt want to just go crazy with the subs, but....I suppose they would if neccesary to make this work.

Hopefully this post makes sense, but I would really appreciate your guys knowlege, expierience and imput beacase I know how valueable and helpful some of you fellow opies are.

Id say the biggest weak point in this lineup of comfort meds would be the lack of a good sleep aid, but SWIM has remron(kinda crap.) some seroquel would sure be helpful. But what do you guys/gals think? Any imput would be great considering I will be working an 11 hour shift today at work and opiophile tends to keep me busy at work ;)

Thanks, pod

SWIM ;) says thanks!

[entropy]

Only take the xanax during the day if you absolutely have to. Otherwise, take it at night before bed and it will work well as a sleep aid. If you don't have a tolerance to benzos, 2mg should be more than enough to allow you to sleep.

If you've had a habit for two months, you're probably looking at about 5 really shitty days. If you can tough it out without using lope or subs, that would be the best way to do it. By taking lope or subs, you're simply prolonging what you will eventually have to experience withdrawal wise. If you tough it out without taking huge amounts of lope or bupe, use enough lope to ease the diarrhea and the xanax as needed for anxiety.

Soma would also be helpful as a sleep aid, and should help to ease restless leg syndrome and other uncomfortable muscular issues associated with withdrawal.

There is no way around it. To withdrawal from opiates completely, you will have to experience a lot of discomfort.

If you don't want to maintain with bupe or lope, you have to expect that it's not going to be fun. You have about every comfort med possible, so it's only a matter of waiting it out and not giving into temptation.

If you only have a small shot left, and you aren't planning on taking anything else until tomorrow, you will probably (definitely) be sick by then. Maybe take a sub or something in the early AM. If it puts you into precipitated withdrawal, it should have passed by the time you have to go to work.

Xanax will probably affect your job performance, and whether you realize it at the time or not, you will probably end up saying or doing something you regret the next day (or whenever you come down from the xanax). I wouldn't recommend using xanax at work. Perhaps a very small dose, 1mg max. Otherwise, you may end up doing something really stupid.

You probably know all this, but in case you don't, it's best you know before you do something you might regret.

[reddragon3668]

Entropy gave good advice. Although, I only deviate on the soma issue. Soma has always made my WD's a million times worse.

[FreeTwistLlama]

By taking lope or subs, you're simply prolonging what you will eventually have to experience withdrawal wise. .

Do you think that if he took subs and did a rapid taper - wouldn't that be better than a cold turkey kick?

Yeah you will still be in some discomfort when you come off the subs but nothing like locking CT.

[thisisthehaunt]

Lope is interesting to me for this reason: It attacks the GI discomfort associated with opiate withdrawal, but you still go through the kick like normal with all the other symptoms. Then, when you're done with the kick, you get the GI symptoms.. right? I've never went from lope --> nothing, only lope --> DOC. Does it bring withdrawal back full force? OR just gi symptoms?

[dizzle]

Jesus Christ man.

knock that SWIM shit off. its annoying as fuck and makes you sound like a retard. You're asking about (mostly) legal shit anyway, I mean, in the scope of this whole website, what you're asking about is pretty mild comparatively.


and, as for the question about lope. Yes, lope is primarily active in the GI tract opiate receptor sites, HOWEVER, it still is active in a small amount in the brain. This is why it is useful for withdrawls, the molecule is too large to sufficiently cross the blood brain barrier, but it still will cross in small amounts.

This is why when taking lope for withdrawls, you need to take a shitload of it, and since loperamide is such a potent mu agonist, even just a LITTLE bit that gets across the bbb helps dramatically.

Anyway, I've heard horror stories of people not being able to get off high dose lope, and that is because it is active in the brain as well as GI tract.

Its also toxic as fuck. anyone that has taken it to stave off w/d's, will attest to this. Nasty shit, yo

[entropy]

Do you think that if he took subs and did a rapid taper - wouldn't that be better than a cold turkey kick?

Yeah you will still be in some discomfort when you come off the subs but nothing like locking CT.

I have never done a rapid suboxone taper so I can't say for sure. I would imagine it would decrease the severity of the withdrawal to an extent, but also consider that we're not talking about a true "CT" withdrawal because he does have a good amount of comfort meds (xanax, soma, lope, etc.).

He should also consider adding DXM and perhaps a low dose of a stimulant (e.g., adderal) to the mix. Take DXM in doses of maybe 60-90mg 3 times a day. A high enough dose to help take the edge off and synergize with the benzos, but not a dose high enough to make him robotrip all day long. Xanax makes me feel extremely lethargic and, especially in WD, it makes me want to sit around and do nothing. So, if you can, adding a low dose stimulant to the mix may be of great benefit, especially if you have to work. But take into consideration that if you dose too high with a stimulant, you will make the withdrawal worse, possibly way worse, so keep that in mind if you do decide to use a stimulant to counteract the lethargy from the benzos and the general lethargy resulting from withdrawing.

You will never feel 100% during withdrawal, but you can do what you can to ease the suffering.

Pregabalin and/or gabapentin are FANTASTIC withdrawal aids. Consider replacing the xanax with either of those.

Propranolol can also really help in decreasing the severity of withdrawal.

Remeron may help a TINY bit with sleep. The other meds you have will work much better. Namely, the soma, xanax, bupe, and lope.

And yeah, like dizzle said, lope is toxic (whether or not everyone wants to admit it). There are some hardcore lope advocates around here who will tell you lope is completely harmless, but any drug that turns piss brown is not good for the body. Many people also get a general feeling of bodily toxicity when using high dose lope. I've used it many times to buy time, and I dread the times when I have to because I know it's bad bad bad. Once, I had blood work done while taking high dose lope and my liver enzymes were off the charts. Also, my common bile duct was severely inflamed and my "gall bladder tumor marker" was so high my doctor recommended (seriously "pushing" me, actually) I get checked for a tumor. So, yeah, lope is toxic. Use it (in high doses) only if you absolutely have to. And by high doses, I mean doses above 10mg.

[Podcom]

Yeah ant. Your absolutely right, benzos always have a way of making you think your fine when you look/act fucked up beyond belief. That's good advice and I probally won't take much at all before work just for the fact that I deal with so many customers face to face.
Red dragon, I'm surprised soma made your withdrawals worse. Can you ellaborate more on that?

And by saying swim I just didn't want to incriminate myself for saying I have an illegal possession of drugs or that I would go to work u.t.I. I have a pretty good job that I worked hard to get where I'm at so I just wanted to be as safe as possible. The internet isn't written in crayon. Didn't realize I sounded like a "fuckin retard"...

[hydrophile]

Coke serms to help w/ w/ds more than adderall but that could just be my subjective experience. The xanax will help and i agree w/ red dragon somas always made me feel shittier.

[thisisthehaunt]

Yeah ant. Your absolutely right, benzos always have a way of making you think your fine when you look/act fucked up beyond belief. That's good advice and I probally won't take much at all before work just for the fact that I deal with so many customers face to face.
Red dragon, I'm surprised soma made your withdrawals worse. Can you ellaborate more on that?

And by saying swim I just didn't want to incriminate myself for saying I have an illegal possession of drugs or that I would go to work u.t.I. I have a pretty good job that I worked hard to get where I'm at so I just wanted to be as safe as possible. The internet isn't written in crayon. Didn't realize I sounded like a "fuckin retard"...

If you feel uncomfortable and want to use SWIM, then go ahead and do it. No disrespect to any members that get annoyed by it, but if you want to use it, then fucking use it, and don't let anyone else tell you what is right or wrong. I agree, if you're not talking about anything super incriminating/admitting to something illegal it's not a big deal. However, if you're bordering a line where you're unsure, and feel the need to use it......... that's what it's fucking there for.

Also.. ehem.. if I can quote the rules for the site:

3. DON'T PUT YOURSELF AT RISK

Yup, make friends with SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me). It is much better to talk about a friend who got into trouble or who is engaging in illegal activities than yourself.

[dizzle]

Also.. ehem.. if I can quote the rules for the site:

3. DON'T PUT YOURSELF AT RISK

Yup, make friends with SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me). It is much better to talk about a friend who got into trouble or who is engaging in illegal activities than yourself.

he's talking about stopping using drugs. not a bunch of illegal shit. It's also importnat to note to be consistent. If you don't want to incriminate yourself, speak in third person ALL the time. Not just sometimes. I fully agree that some discretion should be used when doing shit like this, after all, society hears stuff like "heroin addict" and immediately kicks you to the bottom rung of the social ladder. I hate it.

Didn't mean to come off as a dick, I just get irratated with the swim thing, that's all.

Also, I think you'll be fine with the meds you have, I personally wouldn't use the subs unless ABSOLUTELY necessary- as I hate them more than anything. However, the ONE thing i do have success with involving subs is, wait as long as you can to dose them. I mean, take the xanex after about 12-18 hours. Sleep as long as possible. Wait as long as possible pref all the way until night-time, and then dose 2-4mg of the subs.

Wait like an hour. you should start to feel a BIT better. Not a lot mind you, then take that last shot of dope you have. After you bang it, you won't really get high, but you'll feel everything kinda straighten out inside of you.

You'll sleep like a baby.

Wake up the next day and wait wait wait as long as possible to dose the subs. You may not even need them the next day. Try xanex that night to sleep.

Id use 2mgs before work if you have to of subs NOT XANEX!!! Xanex at night to sleep only!!

The importatnt thing here is to dose the subs, then shoot your d AFTER that. It really makes the induction to subs seamless.

Also, if you're not trying to use them for maint. dose them every 36-48 hours and keep it at/below 4mgs.

Good luck, and most of all, keep us updated. I'll try to check this as often as possible, and give any advice I can.

I've done this a time or two, ya know..........


Coke seems to help w/ w/ds more than adderall but that could just be my subjective experience. The xanax will help and i agree w/ red dragon somas always made me feel shittier.

WTFWTFWTF???? DUDE!!! If you do coke or stims during W/D's it's an instant SHIT-SHOW. I mean, GOD-AWFUL-stab-me-in-the-eye-type-shit

Absolutely, under no circumstances, should you do coke/crack/meth/etc. during the throes of withdrawl, at least, FOR ME, it was a terrible awful experience I only had to do once. That was enough.

Oh, and SOMA's would DEF. take a backseat to xanex for me, if I were w/d'ing. No question.

[Disconnect]

as others have said, you should be alright with what you have,
and yes, avoid lope if you can. I used to be all for it but now
I only recommend it in emergency cases.
another thing not to take in w/d is benadryl.
talk about the worst rls of my life. I wanted to die that night.

anyway, about the SWIM thing, OP, go for it if you feel it's needed,
but some advice from personal experience:
instead of saying "SWIM", just say something like "a friend" or "my pet",
or "my neighbor's nephew's cousin's brother's boyfriend's mom's aunt twice removed"
(though you might wanna abbreviate that last one with "MNNCBGMATR" for convenience)
and it will be more well-received. I think people here dislike "SWIM" because of the association
with newbies over-using it (seeing the same thing gets boring) and because of the hated bloolite.
just a tip. it's what I do if I ever feel the need to be sneaky.

[Just1Fix]

Tough out saturday after work, take the xanies(few mg-get thru day/nite-sleep off what you can) drink lotta fluid(helps a lot sweating the shit out quicker) maybe a lil lope for stomach symptoms... See how you feel sunday(likely you'll wanna shoot some bags of course) but if the w/d is still nasty, continue w xanies, sleepin/drinkin/lil lope...If your in a real bad way, maybe go bigger lope dose... I can do 24/30hrs of w/d and be 'ok' the 30-60hours are pure hell, after 60 life sucks, but its not as sucky as prior hours* my hours are personal avg and its not like I set a fuckin watch to it** Once your over the 'peak'(where its still really shitty but not as shitty as it was) maybe try bupe- dose low(2-4mg) and see what it does- give it a bit for onset etc(hour or so) and if you feel better but not 'good' maybe double up(4-8mg total) but I wouldn't go anywhere over 8-12mg(quick taper)

To quick taper on subs(I only tapered myself 1x-been on probation/maintenance w subs for too damn long) I did 12mg 1st dose, then 4mg 2x a day 2nd 3rd day, then 2mg 2x a day 4th, then either 2mg per 24hrs or 1mg 2x(if you can stretch 24-do it) I'd say add xanies where needed- I try not to use benzo's much, I have a 'taste' for em, and extended daily use is not advised, but here & there yummy. If you want you can drop off the subs at 2mg last day which shouldn't be horrid, but it likely ain't pleasant- or try n bump into a 6th day at 1mg per 24...Jump off within 7 days, if you need a "fix" after the worst is over, take 1-4mg one or 2x a week(days apart-to not re-gain habit) My last 'unmaintained sobriety' lasted like 4 months*I was chipping tho, mostly w pills and tried to keep it to the apap nightmare oxy/hydro just to "de-compress" and at 4 months I still had the "jones in the bones"

You might wanna try kratom too- seen others say "yay/nay" only way to know is give it a go- I ain't given it a go, so I dunno.

I'm an idiot whose done a lot of w/d's and still fucks around- so my advice might not suit your situation-I'm not dear Abby. I've never said "I'll never do that again about opiates" cause I know I can't/won't say "NO".... Hopefully you figure out what works for you and get thru this w/d comfortably(as possible)...Good Luck

[Matt]

Coke serms to help w/ w/ds more than adderall but that could just be my subjective experience. The xanax will help and i agree w/ red dragon somas always made me feel shittier.

I dislike stimulants these days, but I'd rather not do Adderall because the one time I have done it I just felt like I was tweaking my balls off but with zero euphoric content that you'd get with coke/meth. Coke probably has a higher release of dopamine/serotonin, hence it making you feel better than Adderall.


I, too, did a rapid taper/detox on Suboxone this week with 18mg total, from Sunday till today. If there are more withdrawals to face, it's a headstart and a step down from heroin withdrawals but it seems that Sub withdrawals can come with a lot of mental anxiety with me, and the psychological part is my downfall. Of course it sucks having aching legs, being hot and cold, goosebumps, and all that but I can deal with it if my mind is not fixated on wanting to do dope. Subs take that away, it just doesn't handle the physical part so well these days because I think I've used Subs too much but still I can be in physical withdrawal as long as my mind is at ease. If it wasn't for the psychological hell of cravings and not being able to think about anything else besides the physical-psychological discomfort I'm in, I would kick dope a lot easier.

I can agree with the "it's all in your head" thing when it comes to this because Subs allow me to be way more at ease as they take away my mental anxiety which allows me to go about life even if I still feel like shit physically.



With that said, I'd just like to say something about a little debate that happened in the "first high is the best high" thread in The Lounge: I was trying to make the argument that opioid withdrawal is more serious than stimulant withdrawal because with opioid withdrawal you have severe psychological AND physical withdrawal, whereas stimulant withdrawal is mostly psychological.
Well, since then I've learned more about myself and the drugs I take and I can honestly say that the psychological is the biggest culprit.

Oh yeah it does suck being physically uncomfy and having your mind nagging at you to make it better, but if it weren't for my mind being stuck on wanting to get well/high and "how I'm gonna well/high" and "how long will I be sick" and "I wish I had dope/money and not feeling like shit" I could bear physical withdrawal way easier. In addition to all this, the ugly mental ambience that occurs during withdrawal just makes life dark and scary.

I realized this during my last two or three kick attempts while using Suboxone. During the first two days I was still pretty much in physical withdrawal but the since the bupe releases some neurotransmitters that make you feel ok in the head my mind was at ease and I wasn't only thinking of dope. I was able to even sleep through sweat, hot flashes, goosebumps and aching, kicking legs because my mind was right. This would otherwise be impossible for me to do unless I had some heavy sleep-aiding meds.
So yeah, psychological withdrawal is the biggest issue. When I was an alcoholic I'd get severe hangovers (and I already had migraine problems,) but since it was only physical suffering and not mental I could always get through it without having to drink more or take drugs to help.

[Podcom]

hey guys, just checking back in with ya. Its sunday afternoon/evening and I feel great! besides a little restless legs...But ive only managed to take 2 mg of subs and maintain on the xannies. I JUST took 3 xannies and 3 soma and I feel great! ive never felt good during withdrawal lol. i had a pretty hefty habbit though. It never helps when your friends are calling you and asking you to go in on a g with them......but overall im happy. Illl keep you updated. but this is by far the best kick ive had. i will always keep some xannies on hand for wd. as for stimulants. i suppose for work that would help, but i cant imagine coming down without any comfort meds. by the way, i work on tuesday, think i should be ok? last shot was a small rinse sat morning. (keep in mind I had a hefty habbit)

[Happy Pillmore]

Thanks for the update, i for one was wondering how your doing.
Great to hear the xannie/soma combo is working so well. From what i reacall you had plenty of them.
I think a VERY small amount of speed might help you at work.
Since your habit was so large you still might have to suffer a bit,but here's hoping it keeps up as is.

[tui]

My guess is that 2mg of subs has made a big difference. Taper your way using the subs and you can minimise the w/d horrors. Quick tapers like this are when subs are most effective ime.

G'luck man!

[mainline]

you have bupe, xanax, somas, and lope? You wont even be sick probably. Take low dose bupe as needed, same with xanax, use lope at normal doses for any remaining tummy troules and somas for muscle pain. Somans wnt hurt you caue youll be on bupe

[Matt]

Yep, if used correctly during a very short taper Subs can be a miracle. It seems like the best thing to do is get a lot in your system during induction instead of building it up over two or three days, and then just get by on 2mg or less every 14-24 hours as needed for the first few days and then space 'em out longer. After about eight to ten days drop off the Subs where the discomfort will be very easy. As long as you start out right (meaning you wait long enough to take your first dose of Sub so that it eases you into "wellness" instead of having to go through the short PWD before you feel better,) it will work great. Here's a model of what has worked for me:

Day 1: 8-12mg
+12 hours: 2mg
+24 hours: 2mg
+12 hours: 2mg
+24 hours: 3mg
+48 hours: 2mg
+36 hours: 1mg
+36 hours: > or = 1mg