use, abuse, addiction...whatever.

[Coddfish]

so i got in a discussion with a chick last night whose basic claim was that the classic definition of drug abuse, tweaked a bit, was correct. people taking a drug in a way that is other than prescribed, and doing it in a way that is harmful, is abuse. she follwed that by claiming that all heroin addicts were abusing heroin because of the harm and risks involved with it. i countered, saying that most of the harm and risks associated with heroin exist because of government policy, not the drug itself, and that it is at least possible for a person to function better with heroin in his life than he would without it, ie., antidepressant.

dammit, what is drug abuse? is it the same as addiction? how much of heroin addiction--or any opiate, for that matter-- is policy driven? maybe just semantics, but i didn't like where she was going with it.

i guess, is it possible to use heroin everyday and not abuse it? now, today, in this legal framework.

the cae of our cp friends came to mind. they do better with huge amounts of opiates in their system.

[antony]

here we go with another marathon thread created by coddfish.

I think abuse can be qualified by someone over doing it the first time, and never pick up the substance again.

So, to wrap up my hypothesis, you can abuse a drug, and not be addicted, but you can be addicted and not abuse the drug, and you can be addicted and abuser.

[nick]

so i got in a discussion with a chick last night whose basic claim was that the classic definition of drug abuse, tweaked a bit, was correct. people taking a drug in a way that is other than prescribed, and doing it in a way that is harmful, is abuse. she follwed that by claiming that all heroin addicts were abusing heroin because of the harm and risks involved with it. i countered, saying that most of the harm and risks associated with heroin exist because of government policy, not the drug itself, and that it is at least possible for a person to function better with heroin in his life than he would without it, ie., antidepressant.

dammit, what is drug abuse? is it the same as addiction? how much of heroin addiction--or any opiate, for that matter-- is policy driven? maybe just semantics, but i didn't like where she was going with it.

i guess, is it possible to use heroin everyday and not abuse it? now, today, in this legal framework.

the cae of our cp friends came to mind. they do better with huge amounts of opiates in their system.
Drug abuse is not addiction.Drug abuse can lead to addiction.
Drug abuse is bad,the war on drugs/prohibtion is worse.

[insanesteveo]

here we go with another marathon thread created by coddfish.

I think abuse can be qualified by someone over doing it the first time, and never pick up the substance again.

So, to wrap up my hypothesis, you can abuse a drug, and not be addicted, but you can be addicted and not abuse the drug, and you can be addicted and abuser.

well said ant.

i would see the person who gets "fucked up" every day on heroin as an abuser. now if that person were taking small amounts to help him function, then thats probably just addiction, and to me, perfectly fine.

me, im a little of both. most days i do just enough pods to make me feel good enough to leave my house, then there are also days where i just want to get fucked up and not feel anything. so im addicted, and i occasionally abuse.

but now, how can you say my wanting to get fucked up once in awhile is "abuse"? why is it abuse? because its not taking the drug as it would haven been prescribed by doctors who dont know as much about the drug as me or you?

[nick]

Drug abuse is a term used by straights/toolsheds,the rest of us call it having fun.

[antony]

I'd say these days (and the past year) I've been an abuser. One week a month of heavy dosage, then zip the following weeks.

[nick]

That's discipline Antony,way to go.

[kyuss]

I think
drug neglect
is worse :rolleyes:
and kudos Anthony

[Coddfish]

i just want to get fucked up and not feel anything. so im addicted, and i occasionally abuse.

but now, how can you say my wanting to get fucked up once in awhile is "abuse"? why is it abuse? because its not taking the drug as it would haven been prescribed by doctors who dont know as much about the drug as me or you?
that's what i think. getting high isn't abuse per se. so people like to get high. what of it? if getting high makes a person feel better, then how is that abuse? maybe it is in some way, but i don't see it. any more than liking to get drunk occasionally makes one an abuser. no harm no foul.

i don't necessarily want a really long thread, but the chick was arguing some interesting points, and i needed some ammo to go back at her. she's wrong, but i'd like to show her how wrong she is--a character flaw in me, i suppose. thanks guys, these help.

you know, it would be nice to know more about legal activism, but i don't know how to find that stuff. functions, orgs, petitions, etc., that deal with that shit. it might help us keep up with what's going on. maybe it's too far underground to worry about.

[WarmCyanide]

I believe that
Drug use is pacing yourself, chipping, people around you may not notice it.
Drug Abuse is not giving your body a chance to catch up/process rest a bit. People around you may notice it.

[Duckfeet]

so i got in a discussion with a chick last night whose basic claim was that the classic definition of drug abuse, tweaked a bit, was correct. people taking a drug in a way that is other than prescribed, and doing it in a way that is harmful, is abuse. she follwed that by claiming that all heroin addicts were abusing heroin because of the harm and risks involved with it. i countered, saying that most of the harm and risks associated with heroin exist because of government policy, not the drug itself, and that it is at least possible for a person to function better with heroin in his life than he would without it, ie., antidepressant.

dammit, what is drug abuse? is it the same as addiction? how much of heroin addiction--or any opiate, for that matter-- is policy driven? maybe just semantics, but i didn't like where she was going with it.

i guess, is it possible to use heroin everyday and not abuse it? now, today, in this legal framework.

the cae of our cp friends came to mind. they do better with huge amounts of opiates in their system.

The problem with her take, is that other people get to decide for *me* what is harmful, what is abuse, etc. To me, like I said in another post, it's all vocabulary. People sort out the aburdity of existance as best they can. Some people couldn't care less, others have to convince themselves they are not addicts: "My *doctor* prescribes me my dilaudids," etc. When any old junky knows that docshopping is part of the game. My hope is that I'm not *too* delusional about this shit. but it'll never be solved. I mean, a lot of it is lingering *religious* crap, where people just basically think it's *sinful* for people to feel good, and much of our drug policy, IMO, stems from *that* view. And people who *are* in pain, often get seriously addicted too. Some don't care, others defend their *non* addiction, frantically. And now its sort of a new-wave foo-foo thing too, to be a "recovering" addict, and then get all teary eyed and bore people with your new life, as though there were something noble in not doing it anymore.

I don't know, this thread always pops up everywhere online, and some people get really passionate about it. I know that continued opiate use changed something in me a long time ago. Nothing, but nothing ever gave me that sense of happiness--physical and mental--like a good shot of heroin or dilaudid. Having said that, I've also gotten *sick* of the legal and health hassles of being a junky, and have had lengthy periods off the shit.

Best wishes to those trying to get off, best wishes to those trying to score: it's a tough racket either way, IMO....

(I've still got that damned Carmelita song floating around in my brain for last three days: I need it removed! Now!)

Duckfeet
Old and crazy

[nick]

The problem with her take, is that other people get to decide for *me* what is harmful, what is abuse, etc. To me, like I said in another post, it's all vocabulary. People sort out the aburdity of existance as best they can. Some people couldn't care less, others have to convince themselves they are not addicts: "My *doctor* prescribes me my dilaudids," etc. When any old junky knows that docshopping is part of the game. My hope is that I'm not *too* delusional about this shit. but it'll never be solved. I mean, a lot of it is lingering *religious* crap, where people just basically think it's *sinful* for people to feel good, and much of our drug policy, IMO, stems from *that* view. And people who *are* in pain, often get seriously addicted too. Some don't care, others defend their *non* addiction, frantically. And now its sort of a new-wave foo-foo thing too, to be a "recovering" addict, and then get all teary eyed and bore people with your new life, as though there were something noble in not doing it anymore.

I don't know, this thread always pops up everywhere online, and some people get really passionate about it. I know that continued opiate use changed something in me a long time ago. Nothing, but nothing ever gave me that sense of happiness--physical and mental--like a good shot of heroin or dilaudid. Having said that, I've also gotten *sick* of the legal and health hassles of being a junky, and have had lengthy periods off the shit.

Best wishes to those trying to get off, best wishes to those trying to score: it's a tough racket either way, IMO....

(I've still got that damned Carmelita song floating around in my brain for last three days: I need it removed! Now!)

Duckfeet
Old and crazy
you may be old bro',but there is nothing crazy in this post.The bullshit religious crap is called the protestant work ethic,thank you Max Weber.

[alowishus]

Dependence (physical or psychological):
As a general term, the state of needing or depending on something or someone for support or to function or survive. As applied to alcohol and other drugs, the term implies a need for repeated doses of the drug to feel good or to avoid feeling bad. In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-IV, dependence is defined as "a cluster of cognitive, behavioral and, physiologic symptoms that indicate a person has impaired control of psychoactive substance use and continues use of the substance despite adverse consequences."
Being compelled to keep using a drug—even when you realize that you have a physical or psychological problem that is probably caused or made worse by the drug.

Opioid dependence:
A chronic brain disease that involves a physical, psychological, and behavioral need for an opioid drug. This need is unrelated to medical necessity for pain relief.

Psychological dependence:
A primary, chronic, neurobiological condition characterized by 1 or more of the following: impaired control over drug use (ie, compulsive use), continued use despite harm, cravings.

Physical dependence:
Chronic opioid use causes the mu-opioid receptors in the brain to become less sensitive (ie, tolerant) to opioid stimulation. This state of adaptation is also manifested by an opioid-specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by the abrupt cessation of use/rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood levels of the drug, and/or the adminstration of an opioid agonist. Chronic use of opioids will generally lead to physical dependence in all patients.


(just in case you wanted to tech def)

[chemboy7]

Drug abuse is a term used by straights/toolsheds,the rest of us call it having fun.

I'm with you on that. I have never raised a hand against my dope, I have never so much as verbally attacked my dope. I would never abuse drugs because I love my drugs... and I have a sneaking suspicion that the feeling is mutual. I dunno, I guess it's another semantics thing, I just don't like the term "drug abuse". I do see what the other's are talking about though; when does use become a problem. Alot of people see this as when physical WDs begin but all drugs don't produce physical WDs and any drug can be overused (I also don't think that the precipitation of WD is an accurate way to gauge use and over use; because people can fuck around getting high for long enough periods to meet the gange and then never touch Opaites again or pick up here and there and never get sucked in). Really it all comes down to who you are talking about; it's going to be different for everyone. Some people can crawl real deep down that hole and climb out (thus never really having a serious problem), others are going to stick their head's in for a second just to sneak a peek at what it's all about and fall head over heels down that fucker and not be able to find their way out.

I thought I had a problem awhile ago, I didn't think I was gonna be able to climb out of that well. I was upto about 35mg+ of D per shot, multiple times a day plus whatever other assortment of Opaites I could get my hands on in outrageous dosages, for awhile... I want to say alittle over 6 months. Before that I was pretty much a chipper; just weekends and special moments type use... with some periods of what some would reffer to as "abuse", I called them runs or sprees. Anyways, the time came that I HAD to get clean. Using subs or Methadone were out of the question so I tapered down (not enough really, cause I like getting high too much to deny myself) for a few weeks then hit it cold turkey. Before and during I just knew I wasn't going to be able to pull it off, but I did. So I don't see how I had a problem at all really. I mean my use didn't interfer with anyone else's life and I could quit at anytime (I know everyone says that but I really did it, so I have earned the right). Then again, as soon as I found out I wasn't going to have to worry about the drug test I started getting high again (I was sober for just about 3 weeks); shit I'm all itchy and perma-grinned on Morphine right now... so lots of people would say that I have a drug abuse problem. And who knows, they may be right.

Really like I said, it all boils down to the person (or that person's self control really)... and other people's opinions of what defines responsible recreational use and problematic substance abuse. There really is no right or wrong answer, it's more of an opinion deal. I think that the majority of people are going to consider pretty much all forms of recreational drug use (alcohol and tobacco excluded) as drug abuse simply because of the stigmas placed on drugs in this society. My own personal opinion is that recreational drug use is perfectly fine and more natural than not; I see it becoming a problem when this use (not abuse) starts interfering with the user's life or the lives of the people around him, or when the user starts pushing limits that he knows are risky, or when you are using to escape reality. Alot of people have the misconception that the only reason people would want to use drugs is as an escape from reality... that really pisses me off. I love life; my use enhances it. It's like watching your favorite movie on a small screen black and white TV or a full color wide screen plasma television.

[AWOL]

Opioid dependence:
A chronic brain disease that involves a physical, psychological, and behavioral need for an opioid drug. This need is unrelated to medical necessity for pain relief.


yeah, hi. I'll take one, super size it ,,, with a side of euphoria.

[abelhas]

i've been pretty much clear of opies for 10 years now...
and in that time i have drunk so much alcohol... and i feel that...
before that i did a lot of opies, every day, but normally not so much that i couldnt function, and i felt healthy...
maintaining an addiction is not abuse... regular use of alcohol is abuse... it kills. and i feel this now...
just ordered a load of pods :)
i am an addict, (some of us are!!) and i intend to manage it, stay active, and stay healthy (and stop the drinking)

[Narkotikon]

I think of abuse as any use of a substance beyond what is recommended (i.e., taking 10 percocets when you're only supposed to take one or two). I think of addiction as the need to sustain a drug for fear of psychological and / or physical withdrawal. I definately think you can be an abuser without being addicted, but I think of an addict as an abuser when using to get high rather than just maintaining.

I agree though, these terms get thrown around way too liberally. Especially addict. Just because you recreationally use a drug doesn't make you an addict. I consider myself to be an opiate addict and abuser, but only an abuser of other things (coke, alcoholic, e.g.) because I just don't do them that often. The world and every treatment center would like everyone to believe that you're an addict from taking three vicodin.

[hero 1]

drug abuse is takin a few OCs and smackin em around until them fuckers do what you tell em to:)
What do you say to some one with two black eyes? nothin you done told the mother fucker twice;)

[CUBErt]

Problem with government and things like DARE is they have grown to substitute the word "use" with "abuse." As in, "Billy went with his new friends after school and abused heroin."

As someone who believes drug use can be integrated into a "normal" life, this is what I think:

Use is simply the ingestion of the drug.
Abuse is where it gets a bit more tricky. I feel that as someone who believes in legitimate drug use, I have a duty to prove to society that I can injest drugs in a responsible matter. Therefore, something as simple as getting way too loaded and driving my little sister to school while nodding out would be drug abuse. Likewise, long term use to the point where I am stealing/cheating to maintain the addiction would be drug abuse. In both of these scenarios it is important to note that it is not so much the drug that is being abused, but me abusing the privilege to use these substances and failing to represent my case for responsible drug use.

[Ragdoll]

I'm not even sure there IS such a thing as "drug abuse". It's all about people trying to feel somewhere between normal and better than normal because normal occasionally feels like it's not enough to make it through the day. One can abuse his/her life by using a substance in an excessive manner, but the point is to try to feel better than one feels now. The term "drug abuse" is just so damn Reagan. It's a term made up by someone standing outside and not understanding why.

[alowishus]

I'm not even sure there IS such a thing as "drug abuse". It's all about people trying to feel somewhere between normal and better than normal because normal occasionally feels like it's not enough to make it through the day. One can abuse his/her life by using a substance in an excessive manner, but the point is to try to feel better than one feels now. The term "drug abuse" is just so damn Reagan. It's a term made up by someone standing outside and not understanding why.


Rag I'm sorry but I have to totally disagree w/ ya on that one.
What about the huff'ers, do they abuse paint? How about soneone that drinks to get lose to meet girls, or get past a family gathering. Is that abuse?

There are so many reason "we" do substances and most of them ARE abusing them. And it was not Ronny but Nixon that started the war on drugs BTW. It's time to give that up, but they won't.

[AWOL]

Rag I'm sorry but I have to totally disagree w/ ya on that one.
What about the huff'ers, do they abuse paint? How about soneone that drinks to get lose to meet girls, or get past a family gathering. Is that abuse?

There are so many reason "we" do substances and most of them ARE abusing them. And it was not Ronny but Nixon that started the war on drugs BTW. It's time to give that up, but they won't.

The war on drugs, the war on terror .. two wars we'll never win. No I'm not unpatriotic, I love the USA .. I choose to live here. But the idea of declaring war on "terror" is pretty rediculous. So is a war on drugs. Speeding is against the law, causes a huge loss in life .. why don't we have a war on speeding?

[Ragdoll]

That's okay, A-wish. I'm not at all sure myself...just put a thought out there. I guess I'd have to use the old philosophy strategy and ask myself, "First, what do I define as 'abuse'?" Have to think on that one; do a little research. I'll get back to ya. ;)

[nick]

The war on drugs, the war on terror .. two wars we'll never win. No I'm not unpatriotic, I love the USA .. I choose to live here. But the idea of declaring war on "terror" is pretty rediculous. So is a war on drugs. Speeding is against the law, causes a huge loss in life .. why don't we have a war on speeding?
Don't even joke about a war on anything else,politicans love wars on things.makes them look tough and decisive.
Both the war on terror and the war on drugs will be lost,but of course no one will call it defeat.
In regards the war on drugs and I know I keep saying this,but it's not a war on drugs.It's a war on drug users.

[chemboy7]

In regards the war on drugs and I know I keep saying this,but it's not a war on drugs.It's a war on drug users.

Ha, you and me both brother; declaring a war on drugs is about as stupid as declaring war on lampshades... they are inanimate fucking objects. There are no lampshades defending themselves up on the stand and likewise there are no powdery substances doing time.

[devilsdrug]

dont make the assumption that abuse is bad abuse is good , i know just ask me

[nick]

Rather than abuse lets call it recreational use.Sounds a whole lot more fun,which we all know it is.
DD and Chem,Amen bro's right on to both of you.

[alowishus]

Rag I'm sorry but I have to totally disagree w/ ya on that one.
What about the huff'ers, do they abuse paint? How about soneone that drinks to get loose to meet girls, or get past a family gathering. Is that abuse?

There are so many reason "we" do substances and most of them ARE abusing them. And it was not Ronny but Nixon that started the war on drugs BTW. It's time to give that up, but they won't.

[aj11]

rehabilitation is funny. I am currently in a 1 year rehab housing program 22 addicts/alcoholics living in the same house. Been here for 4 months, 3/4ths of the people reabuse after a couple of months. It is a 12 based program which to me is bullshit and doesn't work, no real succes rate to speak of 12% same as just quiting.
shit I guess I am still an assfuck cause I deal meth(which is HUGE here) to people in the program but at the same time am shooting oxys every day. been to countless rehabs, detoxes, prisons and such and can't and don't really want to stop . My depression is only lightened by opis, shit I did ECT even to try and fix it, didn't work. and i was sober for 6 months at the time of that.
you can only quit if you don't want that anymore not cause you "have to", you'll still use, like me and other"addicts"
I am a junkie and opi for life.

[nick]

rehabilitation is funny. I am currently in a 1 year rehab housing program 22 addicts/alcoholics living in the same house. Been here for 4 months, 3/4ths of the people reabuse after a couple of months. It is a 12 based program which to me is bullshit and doesn't work, no real succes rate to speak of 12% same as just quiting.
shit I guess I am still an assfuck cause I deal meth(which is HUGE here) to people in the program but at the same time am shooting oxys every day. been to countless rehabs, detoxes, prisons and such and can't and don't really want to stop . My depression is only lightened by opis, shit I did ECT even to try and fix it, didn't work. and i was sober for 6 months at the time of that.
you can only quit if you don't want that anymore not cause you "have to", you'll still use, like me and other"addicts"
I am a junkie and opi for life.
Hey man,please don't talk about relapse stats,your breaking my heart,but you're completely right about only being able to quit if you want.Nothing dumber than enforced treatment.
Chem bro,I'm so pleased you mentioned drugs are inanimate objects.I use that line often and most people look at me like I'm nuts-which, of course,I could be.

[AWOL]

Don't even joke about a war on anything else,politicans love wars on things.makes them look tough and decisive.
Both the war on terror and the war on drugs will be lost,but of course no one will call it defeat.
In regards the war on drugs and I know I keep saying this,but it's not a war on drugs.It's a war on drug users.


True true. What's really funny is everyone keeps saying "terror" including politicians ... old ladies driving Cadillac’s is terror to me, wonder when they're gonna receive a cruise missile upside the head. Oh damn, I just unraveled the whole plot. Terror can be defined as just about anything, and we're at war with it! Arm the nukes, raise the taxes, invade my privacy, pass laws at will ... but dear god save us from the terror !!!!

[Woods]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has, at times, listed such states of being as homosexuality as a mental disorder, so I’d take anything within it with a grain or two of salt (preferably the hydrochloride salt of diacetylmorphine)

I think a decent definition of abuse is use habitual which causes easily perceived severe harm to the user, or harm to those around the user. Of course the problem with that definition is that it all depends on how one defines harm. There’s something wrong with my lungs, I can hardly breath at times, starting a couple days ago, and if I so much as jog for 5 seconds to catch the bus, it gets so bad I come close to passing out. Starting today I’m on 3 days of prednisone to start, 2 weeks of an inhaled steroid, and 2 weeks of vasopressin. These are drugs which carry risks, which may lead to harm, but I take them because they’re increasing the quality of my life. I could say roughly the same thing about opiates and benzodiazepines, except both of those classes of drug carry far fewer dangers and side effects, as compared with the steroid that made Jerry Lewis the man he is today.

[alowishus]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has, at times, listed such states of being as homosexuality as a mental disorder, so I’d take anything within it with a grain or two of salt



What was the year when that was listed that way?
60 yrs ago, 80? I'd take any info 60 yrs old about anything w/ a grain of salt.

Except of course relativity theory.:D

[Woods]

Why did it change? A change in the political climate, nothing o do wit any evolution in the science backing it up. Western mental health science, which substance dependence would fall under, is still a discipline which pursues a ridged view of what is “normal,” and tends to view anything “aberrant” as somehow dangerous, regardless of whether or not it actually is, not only to the individual but to all of society.


Oh, and forget 60-80 years ago, I don't gemember when it was changed, but it was alive and well into the 70's.