thebaine extraction and conversion to etorphine

[northernstar]

thebaine is the main alkaloid in the p.bresticides poppy, and is found in p.somniferium as well....can anyone come up with ideas, info on

1) extraction of alkaloid from plant sources, and purification info.
2) The bently process....converting thebaine to etorphine

ive seen lots of ghetto fentanyl synth recipies lately,
but all the info i have found shows that this compound is both far more potent then fentanyl, a better high, longer lasting....and should be less intensive chemicaly, and the plants are obtaineable.

1mg of etorphine should yeild the equivelent of 20000mg of pure heroin.

Any one interested on discussing this idea in a thread, for purely academic curiosity of course,lol

[insanesteveo]

i have been very interested in the extaction and purification of thebaine to try out its stimulant properties. it would be a grand adventure to try to turn it into etorphine. from what i remember reading in another thread, etorphine is some CRAZY POWERFUL drug. one that is so powerful that after you try it, you may never even feel another opiate ever again, besides etorphine. i would be very careful if you were to synthesize it.

that being said, the info would be very welcomed and interesting to have.

[candyshop]

can't help,too stupid-offer myself for human guinea pig /taste tester-anything for scientific advancement

[john_doe]

Creating the Etorphine would be the easy part. As you said, 1mg is equal to 20,000mg of pure heroin. Good luck diluting a 1mg crystal/chunk. How exactly would you plan on chopping up that 1mg piece into twenty pieces or more. If you chopped that 1mg piece into 20 pieces you'd be giving people the equivalent of 1000mg of heroin which would likely od quite a few people if not all of them lol. Stick to Fentanyl it's much easier to Synth and some of it is way better than H. Fentanyl alone isnt that great but the methyl fentanyl is supposed to be pretty amazing. You'd have to chop up 1mg of etorphine into about 50+ pieces to get individual doses and they would still be almost OD doses. Fentanyl is similarly hard to dilute but it's not as hard as Etorphine and can be mixed with things. You can't mix etorphine in some sort of cutting agent it just wouldnt work. You say 1mg is 20,000mg of Diamorphine so i'm just using that as my example, i don't know if thats true or not but you say it is so it most likely is. but if not, adjust my answer for said amount.

[Paregoric Kid]

liquid doses, take them by the drop or onto sugar cubes
*edit* I mean you weigh how much you get total then dilute it in a certain amount of water and you can figure out the µg/ml ratio. with a little bit of math and measuring you can dose by the drop basically either straight or onto a sugar cube or onto a blotter.

[chemboy7]

I don't really understand the reasoning behind wanting to create more and more potent (weight-wise) Opaite agonist for recreational use. Maybe if you were looking at it in a profit sense... but this isn't dealers.org it's Opiophile. Personally, if I was going to synth one, I wouldn't be looking at how many thousand times more potent than Morphine or Herion on a mg to mg basis it was; I would be looking for the most pleasurable high... preferably one I can weigh out without having to cut it with useless shite or dilute it in a known amount of solvent to use. Either way, the general proceedure for synthing Etropine and a Thebaine extraction or two can be found in Otto Snow's Oxy. Haven't really read through it yet myself, to be honest I have had the book for over a year now and still only flipped through it, but I know that what your looking for is in there.

[Paregoric Kid]

well I don't think anyone was suggesting anyone on this site actually do it, just discussing how it would be possible to do such a thing. why not? some people are content with the same old things and that's fine but some people are interested in discovering and experiencing new things. I mean if everyone were like that no one would've bothered to sell morphine seperate from opium. no one would've made heroin, oxycodone, fentanyl, methadone, dilaudid, hydrocodone, any of that. there is a chemistry section on this site for this type of discussion and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
I mean think of the possibility of a super potent synthetic. it would be so easy to smuggle and would have such high profits. sure there is plenty of heroin but what if the shit hit the fan and heroin supplies were cut off or the price for H skyrocketed? competition is a great thing. someday in the future we may be hearing about places in the world where etorphine or fentanyl anologues are more abused than heroin if heroin were to become very targeted by antidrug forces or the opium crops nearly eliminated. any heroin available would be expensive as hell so someone steps in, either within the country or somewhere else and will supply the demand.

[chemboy7]

well I don't think anyone was suggesting anyone on this site actually do it, just discussing how it would be possible to do such a thing. why not? some people are content with the same old things and that's fine but some people are interested in discovering and experiencing new things. I mean if everyone were like that no one would've bothered to sell morphine seperate from opium. no one would've made heroin, oxycodone, fentanyl, methadone, dilaudid, hydrocodone, any of that. there is a chemistry section on this site for this type of discussion and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
I mean think of the possibility of a super potent synthetic. it would be so easy to smuggle and would have such high profits. sure there is plenty of heroin but what if the shit hit the fan and heroin supplies were cut off or the price for H skyrocketed? competition is a great thing. someday in the future we may be hearing about places in the world where etorphine or fentanyl anologues are more abused than heroin if heroin were to become very targeted by antidrug forces or the opium crops nearly eliminated. any heroin available would be expensive as hell so someone steps in, either within the country or somewhere else and will supply the demand.

I wasn't suggesting any hault on furthering Opoid synthesis, I am all about the next best thing. Etropine has already been synthed, it's no new frontier... it's even made it's way into clandestine chemistry books such as the one I mentioned above. When it comes to producing new compounds, I'm all for it. I was just saying that if I was looking over the different Opaite agonist out there for something to synth for recreational use I would be more geared towards the most pleasurable drugs as opposed to which ones are more potent on a weight basis. It is true that the less the active dosage the easier it is to smuggle and the higher the profit potential but as I said above those motives are more suited for the dealer than the user... users should be looking for the next best high, not the biggest profit potential.

[john_doe]

Yes you could dilute Etorphine in liquid yah. But most junkies like to see their drugs as a powder so they can sniff it or mix it up in a syringe and cook it on their little spoon and then filter it with the q-tip and finally inject it. It's a ritual and I don't think heroin addicts are going to be into blotters. Who knows it could be the next big thing but people hate change.I guess you dilute it into doses and put them in little vials and then you could just suck it up with your syringe right out of the vial and inject it and be done with it. That owuld make sense yah. Instead of a bundle you could buy a 10 dose vial for like 50$ or something and individual 1 dose vials for 10 or 15$. That could work. HAving the drug in a liquid form would be good because you wouldn't have to add distilled water or anything and mix it around. You could just put the needle tip into the vial, suck up your etorphine and shoot up. simple as that. Liquid drugs are good for shooting. The user could just put the needle in, and suck the fucking stuff in ASAP and they'd be in a vein and shot up iwthin seconds. Very fast and convenient.

SOMEMONE GO MAKE ETORPHINE! OR METHYL-FENTANYL or FLUORO FENTANYL :)

[Opiyum]

Wouldn't doing this, and I understand this idea is only here really for the sake of discussion, really do more harm than good. First your going to, quickly I would assume, develop a tolerance larger than anyone has ever known and then second the only thing that will ever get you off is large doses of the "E" which could be fatal if miscalculated in the slightest.

I, jokingly, posted this idea in a thread months ago basically saying that we could get rid of the Heroin side of the black market by making huge batches of E and giving every junky a few liquid ounces of the stuff to last a lifetime.
As I said it was a joke but after thinking about it I realized that it seems as though it would be the answer to all our prayers, so to speak, but really its only going to dig us in deeper probably to a depth that, when withdrawaling, could possibly kill you and if it didn't kill you I imagine the WD's would be so painful and last so much longer that most would take it upon themselves to pull that preverbial trigger. Especially since once it runs out if you have no more made then you fucked. Shit you'd have to spend a couple grand for each fix I would think.

Just kinda playing Devil's Advocate. Sometimes that can be helpful for any discussion.
Seeing that this stuff does actually exist I wonder how difficult would it be to obtain some. Really all you would have to do is intentionally become good friends with someone who owns an elephant right? What you would have to do next is implied.

Also I don't think using a needle would be necessary. I would think that simply coating the toothpick (or something of that nature) with the Etorphin and scratching yourself would do the trick.
It would be really interesting to hear of a first hand account of someones recreational use of it. Though I doubt anyone ever has tried such a thing and if they have they probably didn't last very long after dosing to tell anyone about it.

On a completely unrelated topic my balls are currently nailed to the wall curtousy of TOOL.

[northernstar]

the same thread where the dude has acess to immobilon (etorphine for elephants-rhinos) he ether scratches himsely, or e puts a small drop in a large 2 gal pickile jar, then after much mixing takes 10 unit shots from the jar.

so it comes liquid. putting 10 units on mannitol, then letting it dry, or useing a geared up fentanyl diluteing process should work. they use this stuff on elephants without killing them, so its possable.

Etorphine is from what i read not only more potent then any other opiate, but also more PLESUREABLE.

also the fentanyl recipes require such things as pyridine, acetylnitrile, annp,ect...Teterahydrafuran.
oh piperidone-piperidine to start to get n,n-methyl-piperdine....lets see piperidine has been controled as hell becuse its a old 80's route to PCP. pyridine, like indole was blown up from DMT back in the day. Thf solvent is toxic, reactive...and watched as hell. acytelnitrile and the bromo-propane are all older, not used anymore routes to methamphetamine....good luck picking that up. Etorphine i see a chemical where the precuror is obtaineable from plants, the process is relatively unknown so the needed chemicals may not be so hot, and one could make a 5 year supply in one batch.....and a better high then fentanyl. Whats not to love?

i know about the book "oxy" by snow. if i had a copy i would be reading it. i dont, nor do i have acess....thus the purpose of this thread. also everyone can benefit from looking at this thread. we would all love it if you scanned it and posted it, i know i would!!!!

also, why send our cash to the middile east or columbians when if a american Eto cartel grew up the cash would stay here, and the drug would bbe cheaper...maybe one day well pay 50.00 for a weeks worth of E,lol

[superman]

"METHYL-FENTANYL"
I believe you mean ALPHA-methyl-fentanyl aka china white

[Paregoric Kid]

or Beta-Hydroxy-3-methylfentanyl, or 3-methylfentanyl, or 4-methyl fentanyl, or ohmefentanyl, or 3-Methylthiofentanyl, or Acetyl-alpha-methylfentanyl, or Alpha-Methylthiofentanyl, or Beta-Hydroxyfentanyl

[BigWaves]

You're talking about messing around with Bentley compounds?! That's gonna be a "dicey proposition" as many said above. Etorphine and Diphrenorphine, M50 I think they're called...something like 1,000 as potent as Fentanyl?!?! used as elephant-trank or something like that. Derived from Thebaine, I know that much. Here's a verbose article about everything you may or may not want to know about it. Enjoy

cut

Courtesy of http://www.unodc.org

[Paregoric Kid]

that's all well and dandy but we're not trying to get high off of thebaine, thebaine is used as the precursor not just to etorphines but to oxycodone, buprenorphine, and other drugs as well.

[northernstar]

that's all well and dandy but we're not trying to get high off of thebaine, thebaine is used as the precursor not just to etorphines but to oxycodone, buprenorphine, and other drugs as well.


Exactly!!! Were getting somewhere tho! now all we need is two things,


1) plant muck---------> pure thebaine!!!
2) Thebaine-----------> Something good!

[northernstar]

Exactly!!! Were getting somewhere tho! now all we need is two things,


1) plant muck---------> pure thebaine!!!
2) Thebaine-----------> Something good!


ok.....the united nation came up with this.....it seems to have a copying-inhibitor so here first is the uuuuurl.
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/bulletin/bulletin_1980-01-01_2_page008.html

[BigWaves]

LOL, COME ON PEOPLE. Like another wise member once said in a thread similar to this;

"Enough, Mr. Science. This is bullshit. Fuckin PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!"


haha -Have a great week!

-Dave

[Paregoric Kid]

what are you talking about?

[northernstar]

what are you talking about?


heres a good extraction recipie, or 10 of em,lol

now all thats missing is the final theb.----> etorp synth recipie.......

[Paregoric Kid]

just look up the patents. etorphine synthesis information is out there. like someone else said, this has been done.

[northernstar]

just look up the patents. etorphine synthesis information is out there. like someone else said, this has been done.

Ive been looking up shit like crazy...i got acess to a college reseerch site....but the American Chemical Society controls looking up chemicals by CAS#...and i dont have a account with them. Most of the best chemistry shit for the final Step all i get is a citation of the chemocal process./......then thjey want 20-50.00 to download the rest. Ive found all sorts of related stuff tho..i got the inventors autobigraphy...and all sorts of things, but i got no clue how to "read patents"....they never come up on a web serch,,,,,do you know how to look up patents? if so let me know.

what i found out is :

Thebaine --->Dies-Alder reaction to get "adduct of" ---"thevinone"( WITH METHYL vYNIL ketone)
thevenone's reduced------>Thevenol's--------------O-Demethylation of C7 = Orvinols
Etorphine is a Orvinol. Most Semisythetics, from buprenorphine to codinone are preduced from Thevinols.

These reactions are tricky too....!!!
i also got a host of morphine synthecation recipes....one has 23 steps, and a 3% YEILD...but the precursor to start is iso-vanillian, or synthetic vanilla flavor, so..........it was a trade journel update from a group of scientists who try new ways to make morphine,lol...there was like 4 others. pretty detailed, but jargonized as fuck.

all the serious O-demylation recipies for thevinone are pay only, or citation only. If i had acess to a patent database that would rule!!!


Anyhow iam getting closer.....imagine, with shit that powerful SWIM could make himself a lifetime supply from a backyard full of crappy pods!lol

[Paregoric Kid]

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

[robojunkie]

You said you have access to a college or university research library right? If so you should be able to access anything from ACS, science direct, pergamon, etc. (pretty much all the major publishers) for free as the libraries usually have licensing agreements. If you were using a college library through scifinder or pubmed I don't understand the fee request. And patents are freely avaible as htmls or quicktime docs from the link PK posted.

[northernstar]

You said you have access to a college or university research library right? If so you should be able to access anything from ACS, science direct, pergamon, etc. (pretty much all the major publishers) for free as the libraries usually have licensing agreements. If you were using a college library through scifinder or pubmed I don't understand the fee request. And patents are freely avaible as htmls or quicktime docs from the link PK posted.


The science engine dosent work.....so i got ebsco-host. Ive dug thru those pubmed files pretty much too...... that patent link came up with alot of related things. Still reserching tho.....might be a while before SWIM could post a working hypothetical recipie.

[vaxn8]

what refs are you having problems finding?

[HeidiW]

Etorphine? Isn't that the stuff veterinarians give to knock out elephants? Isn't 1 mg = 10,000 mg. of morphine? I was under the impression it wasn't safe for human consumption because of the potency. I believe it's called M99. I might be wrong. I lost my book with the info. on etorphine.

[Narkotikon]

Yeah, etorphine is the stuff they use to bring down big wild animals (large cats, elephants, rhinocerous, etc.). I'm not sure of the exact equialency to morphine, but I think it is something like thousands of time more potent. Let's remember that Fent is only 80 times as potent. Damn, I'd hate to have that in a bag.

But to your question, I have no idea how you would synthesise that.

[HeidiW]

Thanks for the confirmation Narkotikon. I'm glad to know I haven't completely ruined my mind.

[superman]

hey there northern star, this is just my opinion but here goes:

That big assed motherfucking post talking about opie extraction is a waste of space, time, and bandwidth. on the whole, it was was filled with informaiton that people here don't need to know.

Anyone know has the knowledge and ability to sythesize active compounds from thebaine definately does not need to read that ridiculously bloated document.

I guess what i am saying is the link would have been MUCH easier for everone on this forum to skip past than the entire goddamn document.

Please don't be offended, just my honest opinion.

[northernstar]

ah yes it is big and long-was hopeing to archive should the UN decide to pull the info, and share as well.

also it was alot shorter before posting converted the neat tabels into long strings of crap. sorry.

etorphine.......kennith w. Bentley was working for a private company when he invented Etorphine-that company got gobbled by another-and they are still the only ones who make eto or IMOBILLION.....
THEy never patented the process, but rather hold it as :trade secrets: one journal said on of there reserchers discussed it and related syntheses in "disertation form only" i.e WTF.

it seems the chemistry is very complex, but iam a student-to a expert maybe not.
id still like to see a real recipie grow out of all this for people,
but if not perhaps something more along the lines of "turn your poppy garden into a ball of h" would be ok.

one question ....can Acetic Anhydride be made from Glacial Acetic Acid?

also thanks chemboy, the patent linked worked well-ive got to find a british eqivalent for bentley tho-my college has chessy serching-no acs,ect. lots of short technical abstracts-no put 2 grams of thebaine, mix with methyl vinyl ketone in a 350ml flask and get a pile of etorphine precursor.

[newParadigm]

Wouldn't doing this, and I understand this idea is only here really for the sake of discussion, really do more harm than good. First your going to, quickly I would assume, develop a tolerance larger than anyone has ever known and then second the only thing that will ever get you off is large doses of the "E" which could be fatal if miscalculated in the slightest.

I, jokingly, posted this idea in a thread months ago basically saying that we could get rid of the Heroin side of the black market by making huge batches of E and giving every junky a few liquid ounces of the stuff to last a lifetime.
As I said it was a joke but after thinking about it I realized that it seems as though it would be the answer to all our prayers, so to speak, but really its only going to dig us in deeper probably to a depth that, when withdrawaling, could possibly kill you and if it didn't kill you I imagine the WD's would be so painful and last so much longer that most would take it upon themselves to pull that preverbial trigger. Especially since once it runs out if you have no more made then you fucked. Shit you'd have to spend a couple grand for each fix I would think.

Just kinda playing Devil's Advocate. Sometimes that can be helpful for any discussion.
Seeing that this stuff does actually exist I wonder how difficult would it be to obtain some. Really all you would have to do is intentionally become good friends with someone who owns an elephant right? What you would have to do next is implied.

Also I don't think using a needle would be necessary. I would think that simply coating the toothpick (or something of that nature) with the Etorphin and scratching yourself would do the trick.
It would be really interesting to hear of a first hand account of someones recreational use of it. Though I doubt anyone ever has tried such a thing and if they have they probably didn't last very long after dosing to tell anyone about it.

On a completely unrelated topic my balls are currently nailed to the wall curtousy of TOOL.


About the toothpick comment, you're absolutley right. This shit is not to be trifled with, people have died from just getting the elephant tranquilizer strength stuff on their skin. (no ingestion, no injection, just **touched** it). Not that I wouldn't try it if i found a bottle setting on my dresser tomorrow morning, I just wouldn't want to try to synth it, one spil of the final p-roduct or even a potent intermediate, and poof you're dead.

I gtg go though, we just got like 8 inches of snow in four hours, and my driveways calling me.

[robojunkie]

This info is all out there, you just need to be able to use a science/chem search engine. I think most of the papers on the study for each of the three conversions is published separately in the sixties in the British JCS. Like the Royal Society of etc, etc. It is most assuredly accessible, and quite often RSC (Royal Society of Chemistry) journals can be accessed for free, especially old ones. It is also far easier I imagine to make codeine into codeinone and that into the dienol methyl ether (ie thebaine), then one is on there way. DielsAlder, Grignard, 3-Methyl cleavage. Done. As well as the naive opiophile who thinks this could be pulled off in their cellar without loss of material and horrible yields at best, and sudden accidental OD at worst.

BTW, etorphine was discovered because one of Bentley's chemists at some point had made this compound and at some point a tiny bit was transferred to a coffee stirrer and a number of lab techs/chemists got pretty fucked up with their morning cofffee. Short investigation led them to the "culprit", which was the compound known as etorphine. It isn't all that hard to figure out how its made either if you know organic synthesis just by looking at thebaine and etorphine. Anyone who works with that shit should have some diprenorphine around too. This is the narcan of the etheno-oripavines (family to which etorphine belongs). Regular narcan won't touch that OD. BTW, buprenorphine is like an odd combo of the two chemically, with a couple of minor variations on the 7-isowhichever alcohol and of course the N-alkyl substituent. One cool thing I'm sure of, the DA reaction is almost certainly completely regio and stereoselective. As in it'll form a ring from the right side and the right direction.

Last piece of advice for anyone, don't actually look the shit up with an eye to try this, you'll almost certainly fuck yourself unless you really know what you're doing and have an appropriate microbalance and lab equipment to protect oneself. That's the purpose for the vagueness of this post.

[SpecialGuy69]

I guess that's typical of new things and really not surprising considering the cardinal sin against etorphine that bupe is. (If you don't get that "joke" look up the two structures, bupe is an "N-gofuckyourself-yl" substituted oripavine like etorphine, but not with the N-methyl or N-phenethyl that makes for good MORs.

BTW N-gofuckyourself-yl means cyclo-xxxxx-ylmethyl or allyl, etc. Those fucking intermediate length small ring/double bond systems on all the antagonists. I prefer N-gofuckyourselfyl- group though. Would it be possible to cleave the N-gofuckyourself-yl off buprenorphine? If so, would this leave you with a full agonist in the opiravine family? Or maybe you could replace it with something, making a potent ass etorphine-esque full agonist?

[robojunkie]

Would it be possible to cleave the N-gofuckyourself-yl off buprenorphine? If so, would this leave you with a full agonist in the opiravine family? Or maybe you could replace it with something, making a potent ass etorphine-esque full agonist?

I posted about this somewhere, and I suspect although with all the correct reagents and time/equipment to experiment it may be doable, but not easy. Basically one has to lop off the cyclo-whatevermethly on the nitrogen with cyanogen bromide, though this is usually used for N-demethylation. It is potentially possible, but would require some real lit research (that I will do at somepoint).

In theory, the product would essentially be dihydro-iso-etorphine (no double bond, OK, and the side chain at C-7 is slightly different, but I imagine still far more potent than "regular" semi-synthetics and more in line with the Bentley compounds (Bentley, by the way was a student of Sir Robert Robinson, Nobel leaureate and first discoverer of the actual structure of morphine in 1925).

[SpecialGuy69]

Thanks robo! I was thinkin about this because subutex is the one opiate almost ANYONE can get pharmaceutically pure, wouldnt have to do a ten step pill extraction like a pseudophed==>meth cook, and it's chemically very similar to the big kahuna opiate, Etorphine.

So, maybe a recipie could be developed that wouldn't require 4 years of organic chem and highly watched reagents to pull off. If so, people could go to the doc and get .5 gram of precursor every month, take it home, cleave the N-gofuckyourself, and dilute your .2gram (or whatever) yield into an ounce of mannitol, and have hundreds of doses of super-potent etorphine analog instead of shitty bupe!

Sounds like a winner to me! This is the type of thing that would have to be a closely guarded secret, shared only among a trusted few- if a cook like this was as well known as rp/i ephederine reduction, or birching pseudo, subutex would be taken off the market, people would OD, or at the minimum, Reckett-Bennister would have to reformulate Subutex and Suboxone tablets with a bunch of Gaak like the 120mg time-release pseudo pills.

Eh? No? Yes?

[robojunkie]

Thanks robo! I was thinkin about this because subutex is the one opiate almost ANYONE can get pharmaceutically pure, wouldnt have to do a ten step pill extraction like a pseudophed==>meth cook, and it's chemically very similar to the big kahuna opiate, Etorphine.

So, maybe a recipie could be developed that wouldn't require 4 years of organic chem and highly watched reagents to pull off. If so, people could go to the doc and get .5 gram of precursor every month, take it home, cleave the N-gofuckyourself, and dilute your .2gram (or whatever) yield into an ounce of mannitol, and have hundreds of doses of super-potent etorphine analog instead of shitty bupe!

Sounds like a winner to me! This is the type of thing that would have to be a closely guarded secret, shared only among a trusted few- if a cook like this was as well known as rp/i ephederine reduction, or birching pseudo, subutex would be taken off the market, people would OD, or at the minimum, Reckett-Bennister would have to reformulate Subutex and Suboxone tablets with a bunch of Gaak like the 120mg time-release pseudo pills.

Eh? No? Yes?

I do believe that one "skilled in the art" (like me, sorry, not being as ass, but the transformations would involve some toxic shit) and with the appropriate glassware could do this.

But before I speculate, I do need to add this: No Bentley compound that is a pure agonist should ever be "cut" and sold, as there is no way to ensure even distribution, no fine powder will do, settling and even crystallization can occur. The only way would be "serial dilution" in water, sold or given or taken as such. In other words, say 1 gram of Et in 1 liter water gives a mg per ml. Still way too strong for most, so each mil could go into say 49 mls water making 1 mg per 50 ml or 20 mikes per ml. I'm not quoting the last as the optimum dose, but this type of process would be the only way this or anything fentanyl strength or stronger could ever safely be distributed. The doubt of many "customers" would have to be overcome with the quality of the product.

Anyways, simple but problematic possible prep, would use cyanogen bromide, toxic stuff, works by a sort of in/out mech. The tertiary N attacks the electrophilic carbon, knocking out bromide. Then, the important "out" part is where the bromide ion attacks the methyl, or in this case the "gofuckyourselfylmethyl" substituent at the alpa-N position, knocking out De-GFYSyl cyanobuprenorphine. This is theory because CNBr is usually used with methyl groups, but may work with the cycloGFYSylmethyl group but with more active conditions. The whole last thing goes because one has made a positively charged quat ammonium salt intermediate, ie bupe with CN attached at the bupe N.

So now the N-cyano bupe can be hydrolyzed in wet methanol and once the the carbamate is produced (this is N-CdoublebondO-OMe) and this can be reduced with LiAlH4 down to the simple methyl substituent, giving what I'm calling iso-dihydro-etorphine.

Potential complications are the oxygens at 3 and the side chain attacking as well, though these could be easily hydrolyzed totally, as well as the N-carbamate and then methylchloro formate reacted with the N to give back the ester, though prior to this one would need to protect the free hydroxyls as TMS ethers or as acetyl ethers, though carefully as both can add to the N. This selective protection and reduction can be done but more than one try would be needed to perfect the process. If not, during the reduction and after, the aryl methyl ether is easily cleaved, adn the side chain may be problematic, however its a tert alcohol and may be solvated in acid, (an Sn1 reaction) giving thealcohol back.

Sorry I cant upload the chemdraw stuff, it would be much clearer if I could.
Look up these reaction types. I believe the CNBr reaction is called the von Braun reaction, not sure about the chloroformate to carbamate, usually called an EC2 reaction mech.

BTW, Sn1 means Nucleophilic substitution, unimolecular, Sn2 same, bimolecular, EC2 mean condensation/elimination bimolecular. Look up the basic mechs and the names make sense. Example, N attacks chloroformate ester (condensation), the transition state has four groups, then what was the C double bond O (carbonyl) oxygen drops its electrons back down knocking out the chlorine (elimination). Since there were two molecules, bimolecular.

Edit: Here's the thing though, lets say the above could be achieved successfully, cyanogen bromide isn't easily gotten I imagine, and to make it one requires a cyanide salt (sodium, potassium, etc) which are well known poisons, and probably could be found in some rat poison formula somewhere (or apple seeds) and bromine, which I've never seen anywhere but in labs and chemsupply houses, and is dangerous if ever spilled on skin. Nonetheless, if one had this one must be careful, after reaction excess needs be neutralized in base. Then comes the chloroformate ester which isn't really a watched chem to my knowledge, and LAH, which I think may be moderately watched, but not very suspicious like RP or HI or phenylacetone. If all this works fine you still need to sort out the issue of the hydroxyls being protected or selectively reacting the CNBr only with the nitrogen. This would be difficult enough that I doubt it would ever be a "commercially viable" process, only one for the individual doing it. The codeine to codeinone to codeinone, dienol methyl ether (aka thebaine) to the Diels Alder adduct with methyl vinyl ketone (regio and stereoselective, gives only the "right" structure) to the alcohol corresponding to Et with the ethyl or propyl grignard and finally aryl methyl ether cleavage with either concentrated HBr or BBr3 in methylene chloride giving ETORPHINE.

Actually I'm surprised I've never seen any record of this (record of busts in news I mean, every step has been done somewhere, though not all together as one synthesis). It is all precedented, and would be very difficult for an underground chem. Ex. making meth via PE/E with the fos and I2/HI or birch is a 3 or 4, via LW maybe 4 or 5, fentanyl all the from non lit preps a 9, this would be 9 or 10. Fent from phenethylpiperidinone maybe a 7. LSD, from LA or ergot, 9. Morphine to heroin, easier than meth.

[SpecialGuy69]

Okay soo...
cyanogen bromide= toxic as shit, and probably watched.
LAH=watched
fume hood=required
bigger brain than I have= required

I was hoping you could reflux it for a couple hours with some simple, unwatched reagents without a fume hood. Too bad, so sad.

This would still be worth it, because even at a 25% yield, a months prescription (around .5g) would yield 125mg of etorphine-analogue agonist. If it's even 10% as strong as E, it will be active in the 50 ug range (to opoid tolerant people). That means you would have 2500 DOSES (plus or minus a wide range) thats a shitload of Etorphine-analogue agonist from crappy bupenorphine mixed agonist/antagonist!

So, this would take a good deal of work, brains, and DEFINITELY a GC/MS workup to find out exactly what your final product is (and any potentially toxic byproducts created by side-reactions/contamination), then you'd probably have to shoot up rats for a while (sorry, GOR) until you figured out if the shit is toxic and how active it is (assuming its a novel compound that has not been studied in humans before).

Even STILL, the idea of creating 2500 doses of THE MOST PLEASURABLE OPIATE KNOWN TO MAN (I dont have a source for that statement, but it's tossed around quite a bit) using shitty ass subutex as your precursor is very appealing, no matter how difficult the process is.

Also, if your lab was discovered, nobody would have any idea what the fuck you were up to!

[SpecialGuy69]

I do believe that one "skilled in the art" (like me, sorry, not being as ass, but the transformations would involve some toxic shit) and with the appropriate glassware could do this.

Actually I'm surprised I've never seen any record of this (record of busts in news I mean, every step has been done somewhere, though not all together as one synthesis). It is all precedented, and would be very difficult for an underground chem. Ex. making meth via PE/E with the fos and I2/HI or birch is a 3 or 4, via LW maybe 4 or 5, fentanyl all the from non lit preps a 9, this would be 9 or 10. Fent from phenethylpiperidinone maybe a 7. LSD, from LA or ergot, 9. Morphine to heroin, easier than meth.I like the scale of difficulty for drug synths. Good information. I know my grandmother's cable guy's plumber has dreamed of honey successfully both via birch and rp/i, as well as a certain tropane alkaloid from tea bags, so thats good information reguarding where this non-entity's chemistry skill is. Where would you rank a MDMA synth vua leucart/wacker?

What is LW meth synth? I'm not familiar.

I read somewhere on the internet there was a russian (?) chemist who synthed himself a nice batch of Etonitazene, got arrested, and killed himself in jail because his addiction/withdrawl was so horrible, 1200mg of methadone wasn't even taking the edge off! Wow. Talk about hell on earth!

[robojunkie]

I like the scale of difficulty for drug synths. Good information. I know my grandmother's cable guy's plumber has dreamed of honey successfully both via birch and rp/i, as well as a certain tropane alkaloid from tea bags, so thats good information reguarding where this non-entity's chemistry skill is. Where would you rank a MDMA synth vua leucart/wacker?

What is LW meth synth? I'm not familiar.

I read somewhere on the internet there was a russian (?) chemist who synthed himself a nice batch of Etonitazene, got arrested, and killed himself in jail because his addiction/withdrawl was so horrible, 1200mg of methadone wasn't even taking the edge off! Wow. Talk about hell on earth!

By LW I just meant the Leuckhart-Wallach red/am. If I was gonna rank the MDP2P Leuckhart via N-methylformamide (or N-methylammonium formate) I wouldn't consider it to be all that diff from the meth version, maybe just a slight increase due to the potential of hdyrolysis of the "methylene" catechol acetal. The Wacker (if I recall this is PdCl2, with CuCl2 and an oxidant, like O2 or benzoquinone, etc) I'm not sure, I've never used this reaction in any capacity. However its very different from the others in that one can use it to turn a terminal alkene into a methyl ketone, so the obvious safrole comes to mind here as a prior step to the LW. I've used the PdCl2, but only as a Pd source for Suzuki/Stille/Sonogashira/etc coupling source.

I'm not familiar with the etonitazine synthesis, I'll look it up for curiosity's sake. I think that's the type of opioid that is "irregular" in that there is either a benzimidazole or bis-arylbutene system, I forget which.

As for another good review/learning source, wikipedia, though often inaccurate in many things, usually gets simple "name reaction" mechanisms right, from what I've seen. Also useful is www.organic-chemistry.org/namereactions/ which is put up by some group called "organic chemistry portal" and is free open source. Jack Li's Organic Name Reactions is good, few words and crap, almost all rxns and the mechanism underneath. OrgPortal I also believe can provide basic mechanisms and defs like Sn1, Sn2, EC2, E1, SarE, SarN, etc. These are very very useful to know, as is understanding what pKa's are and how they relate to equillibria and acid/base relationship, as well as other basics like this. Often it may seem boring to non-chem people, but if one is dreaming or daydreaming about these syntheses, usually the daydreamer finds that he/she has some interest in the chem itself. I got into synthesis because I looked all the structures up when a teenager, then syntheses (never could have pulled them off then), but this got me interested in the whole area, and I turned out to be good at it, so its a carreer. Even though I'm not a "clandestine" chemist, the whole area still fascinates me due to some of the inventiveness and ingenuity in developing alternate methods (due to restrictions that grow like cancer) that none of us research guys would have to deal with, beyond being on hold for 5 minutes.
Also good for specifics is of course rhodium's archives at erowid, though there is a wide range here in quality ranging from stuff I'd call total shit, to stuff I would call very professional, in addition to actual literature articles that presumably rhodium copied into the old site.

You may know this: rhodium was an old "bee" who started his own site after strike's demise, then disappeared himself, right? I didn't have much computer access in the days of the hive, although I was aware of it. Personally I think its ersatz hive thing isn't making it, and although I never post, I've occassionally visited just to see the style and they just seem to argue ajd bicker so much in the few threads I read. It's all amps and MDwhatevers and phenetylamine (really phenylisopropylamine) and little else. Wouldn't recommend it as a learning site.

Read the books I listed before or the two mech sites I listed here for the basics and more then look up the archives for specific preps, staying towards ones that are published in actual journals with citations and such. Some stuff, like RP/HI or RP/I2 or the benzyl alcohol birch you'll find virtually nothing in the literature other than beat ass journal of forensic science crap, mostly a buch of GC/MS stuff and what seized this had that in it. Even these though are based initially in analogous mechanisms, like with birch, the reduction of benzyl alcohol derivatives in anhydrous NH3 with lithium or sodium metal to give the corresponding reduced benzyl derivative, with mechanism, which follows a traditional birch and E1 mechanisms. Check them sites out and lemme know what you think of them as learning sources.

[SpecialGuy69]

By LW I just meant the Leuckhart-Wallach red/am. If I was gonna rank the MDP2P Leuckhart via N-methylformamide (or N-methylammonium formate) I wouldn\\\'t consider it to be all that diff from the meth version, maybe just a slight increase due to the potential of hdyrolysis of the "methylene" catechol acetal. The Wacker (if I recall this is PdCl2, with CuCl2 and an oxidant, like O2 or benzoquinone, etc) I\\\'m not sure, I\\\'ve never used this reaction in any capacity. However its very different from the others in that one can use it to turn a terminal alkene into a methyl ketone, so the obvious safrole comes to mind here as a prior step to the LW. I\\\'ve used the PdCl2, but only as a Pd source for Suzuki/Stille/Sonogashira/etc coupling source.
</p>
What do you think of using a PdCl2 + p-Benzoquinone +dmf Wacker on notsaffarole to yield notMDP2P?

i.e. Brightstar http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/brightstar.mdma.htmland
</p> then nitroethane Al amalgamation, making the methylene in situ?
</p>i.e. Drool http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/mdma.drdrool.htmlIn
</p> In my area, not-sassafrass grows wild everywhere, so steam distillation would yield not-saffarole, which would be the most difficult thing to get for this synth (?)
</p>This would be the most difficult synth my grandmothers cable guys plumber would ever dream to date- and he is the type of guy who has studied the rhodium archives extensively, but really does not have a solid enough org chem background to really know if a write-up is bullshit or actually viable.
</p>He likes this combination of reactions because it eliminates the need for methylene chloride, which seems to be a sticking point for a lot of bees.
</p>Do you think this guy would bring a lot of heat down on himself if he ordered the p-benzoquinone, dmf, and pdcl2, HgCl2?
</p>Obviously, my grandmothers cable guys plumber is not planning on making ketones and secondary amines of said ketones. Obviously, this is a thought experiment, only, but still, robo if you think this is too hot for the main board could you take it down?</p>

[robojunkie]

Haven't had time to not read all those, but one thing I would recommend against for anyone, even myself, is the use of HgCl2 in any synthesis that could ever involve something that wouldn't not not be ingested. Hell, I try to avoid that shit in anything period. Unlike regular Hg liquid metal, that salt is highly highly toxic because it will be absorbed as a water soluble salt from anywhere in the body, unlike the metal, which is actually safe enough to use in combo with silver as an amalgam for tooth fillings.

benzoquinone is just a six membered ring with a 1,4 diene, 2,5 diketone system, good oxidizer but mild as it will tend to rearomatize to hydroquinone, which is just para-dihydroxybenzene. I believe CuCl2 can be used instead of mercury salts and oxygen (as in even air if pressure is not required) can also be substituted for BQ. Without having read the preps yet, the general scheme seems viable. Usually the most significant changes in yields will be a result of oxidant choice. The Wacker isn't a typical OH to ketone or carboxylic acid oxidation as this essentially is a palladium-pi complex where the oxygen must be inserted in a coupling type mechanism. For this reason I tend to think oxygen would be better as a source of free atomic oxygen instead of BQ, where I am having trouble seeing the actual mechanism behind the oxygen transfer and where its coming from, unless its done in water, or wet DMF.

I believe the general mech involves insertion of the oxygen via coupling to give a transient enol which immediately rearranges into the ketone. I would need to check a couple of things of interest in these methyl ketones, however because in a case if the allyl compound is used, this reaction can be used to make both a methyl ketone or an aldehyde. I believe this is primarily why the propenyl (cis or trans) compound is preferred (not hard conversion, it essentially equilibrates to the thermodynamically more stable olefin (double bond), which is nearly always the more conjugated and more substituted one. (Conjugated just means double bond next to single next to double, etc. and subst. refers to the four positions on the double bond, ethylene is not substituted, tetramethyl ethylene, ie 2,3 dimethylbutene is tetrasubstituted).

Out of my own curiosity I'm gonna look up more on the Wacker, as its a reaction I'm not extremely familiar with.

http://www.organic-chemistry.org/namedreactions/wacker3.gif
J. Tsuji, "Palladium Reagents and Catalysts", First Edition 2004, Wiley, 29-35.



There it is...sorry I love the mechannism shit. To me these things are always easier to make sense of if seen this way, as it explains why what is used and in what amounts.
This mechanism also explains why if BQ is used there must be at least an equimolar amount of water used.

Quick explanation: Where it says "complexation" means the not safrole or whatever olefin is bound by palladium at both carbons ofbo double bond, losing a chlorine, and then water attacks, causing loss of HCl. This shifts the Pd-C bond to only the terminal carbon at which point beta elimantion (hydride transfer) occurs, spitting out the sought after ketone. Then, at this point Pd, which was in the +2 oxidation state is now at 0 state, so it must be reoxidized. This is where the other catalytic metal copper comes in. It oxidizes the palladium (and is in turn reduced to CuCl) and the now reduced copper is then reoxidized by the BQ or O2 with the HCl providing necessary hydrogens (if BQ it is reduced to hydroquinone, if O2, water), which all provides PdCl2 and CuCl2 for next cycle. This is a typical catalytic mechanism, where arrows that complete a full circle are representing catalysis and recycled reagents and the other arrows show things consumed (oxygen/BQ, olefin) and things made (ketone). Make sense?

[EleusisII]

I'll just cut to the fucking chase here...

How long until the opiophile Etorphine-factory can be up and running?

[robojunkie]

I'll just cut to the fucking chase here...

How long until the opiophile Etorphine-factory can be up and running?

Don't like mechanisms, huh?

BTW, there's no "cutting" in the chem section...

[northernstar]

Holy shit...progress...except the thebaine extractiion crap vanished...bit swim archived it. figured out my school is too stingy to pay for good online chem stuff....grrrrrrr
looks like you guys did better then me....cyanogen bromide...not good.
the tropane tea works well tho :P actuallt swim has heard god results of the brightstar-methylman mdma system.....hgcl can be used, and made safely provided you know what your doing and dont fuck up. it wont be in the final product provided its fuck-up free.
LAH tho.....that damn near in the impossable for non-real chemists watched list.....GRRRRRR

[northernstar]

This info is all out there, you just need to be able to use a science/chem search engine. I think most of the papers on the study for each of the three conversions is published separately in the sixties in the British JCS. Like the Royal Society of etc, etc. It is most assuredly accessible, and quite often RSC (Royal Society of Chemistry) journals can be accessed for free, especially old ones. .

i tried them (royl soc.of chem) for a old journal from 1927 the otherday looking up willstatters methods and no-go......accesss denied..ditto for JSTOR.....tho i got some free "first page" pdf views from JACS.
unfortunatly it was a poor yeilding toxic as fuck recipie.

next year ill get to a 4-year school with real chem acess...my bio/chem teacher offered to get me access with her account to stuff i couldent access...but did want to say oh,ya......get this super-opiate recipie for me...it for a paper...sure......

[northernstar]

lol Grrrrrr UNDOC pulled all those easy thebain recipies off there server:mad:.....good thing its archived:D, tho not in the thread.

turns out thebain is really easy to turn into oxycodone.....but the threads not on that, so.....
(hint....dichromate,peroxide,GAA)
lol this is WAYYYYYYY easyer then all that cyanogen bromide/bupranorphine crap!

here we go:

1) reflux the thebain in methyl vinyl ketone ( good luck finding this...sigma aldrich pulled it from general production)....lol thats right, just a fucking reflux!

2) purify and rextalize from methanol :) swiyou got the thevinol crystals :)

3)prepare a grignard reagent ( swiyour choice of propylmagnesium iodide or isoamylmagnesium bromide...or another metal halide of swiyour choice if swim knows that much) this is the most touchy and skill demanding part.....grignards are touchy about water and need cooling.

4) react the thevinol with the grignard to give the tetrahydrothebain intermediate.

5) selectivly o-demethylate the intermediate after etheral extraction. propylene glycol is heated and bubbled with n2.(50c)......Koh is added, then thee intermediate. reflux for 1.5 hrs at 203-205 c then let cool to 100c

6) 5x water extract.....zoelite filter..precipt with ammonium chloride......purify with bisulfite and combine ether extracts

-overall yeild? 146.7gr thebain+475ml MVK----(steps 1-6)---->9.4gr cruder or 3.5+2.5 superrefined w/nore loss. ranged from 24% overall ( superrefined) to 60% ( more crude)
-3.5 (type 1 entant) + type 2 entantomer (2.5)=6 grams highly refined
6.0grX8000 heroin eqivalent=48'000 grams heroin eqivalent or roughly 107 lbs!
p.bractituim capsuels yeild 8.5% thebain or 3.5grams per kilo pods

so 150grms from 50kilos pod heads......yeild 107 lbs heroin?

nawwwwwwwwww who would wanna do this?...........better keep buying 10.00 a 20mg oxy's and dirty monkeyshit chiva from the mexicans........all this is crazy talk.

oh the oxycodone yeild is about 70% starting from thebain..........nawwwwwwwww better stick to those suboxones :P