Why do you suppose crime is associated with drug use

[BobTheFiend]

I'm not speaking about the direct illegality of drug use/selling, but the indirect stuff like stealing to fund a habit.

I believe it is because (hard) drug users are lumped into some dirty, fiendish, stereotype that causes some people to kind of act the part, maybe even subconsciously.

Speaking from personal experience, when I first started using dope I got caught up in all the propaganda and I just assumed that bad behavior was expected of me. I also saw it as an easy out when it came to shirking personal responsibility, after all I'm an addict I can't help myself!

I noticed a similar theme in NA when I entered treatment and was required to go to meetings. I'm powerless over my addiction and I can't control myself/actions when I'm actively using. It seemed similar to confession at church, you can commit all these sins and they'll be forgiven if you confess (or admit you're powerless)...No, that stuff still happened.

Needless to say, I later found out this is false. As I got older I realized that personal responsibility transcends all the bullshit I'd been fed. There is always a choice and alternatives to acting like a scum bag. I began to resent all the people and groups that told me I was destined for a lifetime of shit if I continued to use. In fact, that resentment motivates me to be a better and more responsible drug user.

Anyway, that's my belief on the matter. It's nice to have a forum to express this without getting dog piled.

[Michael]

I gotta agree with you to a degree, but for some people, they were thieves before they started using anyway. But there's certainly a large element of people from good homes who play that card.

Never got into NA, but considered it once for networking, but never went through with it. Apparently I'm not the only one who's thought of this too.

[Actavis]

Because drugs are illegal. Simple...

drop the war, make most things legal, and crime will plummet.

but don't do that in the US by god...

[Larkin]

sure i can agree with that.

saying "im a junky, i have no choice but to steal" is justifying to the fullest, or even saying "they think im a thief anyway, so im not losing anything" is all something that you would probably never think of you werent so desperate for droogs

If i stole something and got away with it, free and clear, then i aint sayin shit! i dont care what step it is. If i stole $20 from you and you ask me about it, ill probably admit it. But i will never bring up some shit that was otherwise unknown, it wont make anyone feel any better.

personal responsibility is def #1

--- auto merge ---


Because drugs are illegal. Simple...

drop the war, make most things legal, and crime will plummet.

but don't do that in the US by god...

wrong.

thats exactly what he said first line, not the direct legality of it. and you are telling me alcoholics dont break the law?

[Actavis]

of course alcoholics break the law, but most of them are not sitting in prison for non violent drug crimes. these people would be set free and people would not be going to the klink (or getting killed/jacked) over minor drug transactions.

[PriceofPills]

Because drugs aren't free. It takes money to do drugs and the quickest, easiest ways to make money are often illegal.

[nick]

What percentage of the prison population are drug users?

Oh yeah,right.

[Larkin]

of course alcoholics break the law, but most of them are not sitting in prison for non violent drug crimes. these people would be set free and people would not be going to the klink (or getting killed/jacked) over minor drug transactions.

I think he was referring more to the life of crime one tends to lead when on the drugs... tricking, stealing, robbing, dealing...

that was how i read it anyway. If heroin were legal, it would still have to be paid for, and they could then just rob the store of pharmacy selling the stuff and avoid all the middle steps. OC's are 'legal' and people rob pharmacies all the time.

I lived in a few family members when i was deep in my dope habit, my aunt that lived with me was far worse with booze than i was with dope. Guess who got the boot? yeah me, cause what i was doing is illegal. So yeah the stigma is there for several reasons, legality being a huge one.

[Actavis]

Nick, in Amerika?

hundreds of thousands...

[paups]

OP I totally agree that there is often a mindset amoungst addicts, egged on by NA/AA etc that THE DRUGS MADE ME DO IT, I WAS DESPERATE AND HELPLESS..

I've really struggled with this concept for awhile and after a year now with some clarity from half my life using heroin I really do see it so differently.

YES physical addiction can lead one to do desperate things.. but people who do awful shit already have in their system to do it irregardless of addiction.

PERSONALLY, I believe AM responsible for my addiction, my "recovery" etc. just like every other thing in my life.
IT IS A FUCKING CHOICE> But when people try and tell me "But you have a DISEASE..its NOT YOUR FAULT" Im think "who the fuck are you.. who are you apologizing for?"

In my experience many addicts like the people on this site (who are not pain patients) are simply acting out on feelings of plain hedonism, seeking something "different", reaction to past trauma, disillusionment/disappointment with the way "things" are etc.
IE: they are often brighter/more self aware (and some times self-tortured) than most and not satisfied with the norm.
That is a PERSONAL choice.
If and when and how we choose to do shitty things to get money for our habits.. thats another story and it is individual.. but no, I do not believe addiction "makes" yone bad.
I think it only shows you who you really are in many ways..

Now stereotypes are a different story..

[Flowergirl]

I think that upbringing, economic backgrounds, education (NOT intelligence!), and peers are a significant influence in this as well. Of course, exceptions exist. Drugs, crime, and all those things (and much more) are all interrelated to a degree. A sad set of statistics, for sure.

[Michael]

Would anyone agree that by polarising the using / sober thing, they make it almost worse. I know for a lot of people, one slip up ends up being a habit but the attitude of fucking up once and crossing the line back into the warped mindset of "I'm on drugs, crazy and blameless" territory makes it harder to go back to being clean. You kinda think, well now I'm here might as well make it a run.

The best system I've seen is harm reduction, not total abstinence

[Dolofinell]

I think it only shows you who you really are in many ways..

This is the only time I think I have not agreed with everything you have said paupie...and FG I know you said "exceptions exist" maybe I'm one? I have spent 8 yrs in active addiction and now 8 yrs on maintanence, not using at all except a slip last fall the past 6.5.

I was raised by 2 parents who are still married, middle-upper class,never seen either one drink or smoke until I was about 25 and that was socially, finished HS and have an assoc. degree. Granted my peers influenced me quite a bit.

But when I was strung out on dope, and rock at the end. I didnt do anything like rob people armed, nothing violent or really even stealing from stores, stuff like that. But I stole cash from wherever and whoever close I could get my hands on. I pawned everything and anything not screwed down in my parents half million dollar house(not trying to dicksize at all, just how it was). Tell stories to my parents, grandparents, other relatives to fund a very large habit.My father was constantly getting things out of pawn, Handing me cash, on and on, Not sure if he was clueless, which seems impossible or just in denial.

Thankfully 10yrs ago I went to prison on a larceny charge for 18months and learned what consequences are about. This was over taking some stuff out of our neighbors garage and getting caught. My family has all completely forgivin me and my bridges are still intact.

Today after maintanence, having children and family, finishing my degree and constantly telling my parents how sorry I am I would not take a quarter out of my parents home if I was 90lbs. and starving. I carry around SO SO MUCH guilt that I can just not let go, even w/ my dad constantly telling me to and to focus on today and the future, not what I did to them.

Anyway sorry for the novel, I just wanted to tell my story. Not even sure if Im on topic, sorry if thats the case. I just actually have a conscience now, which I always had but lost and regained along the way.

[SHELLEY]

it's because drugs are expensive and they run out quick
and crime pays faster than a 9 to 5

[digby]

Drug users break the law every time they use. Once you habitually break one law, it becomes much easier to break a few others. Plus the fact that the first law that you broke has proven to be a poor law anyway, so breaking laws can become a natural order of things. When you have a country where some of the laws are bad and some are good or are at least arguably necessary, people don't always discriminate between which is which.

[jimmyfingers]

It is a highly profitable illegal business. This combo brews crime.

[borohydride]

What percentage of the prison population are drug users?

Oh yeah,right.

Isn't it over 60% in the UK?

I mean drugs offences were at least one of the charges...

[BobTheFiend]

I think he was referring more to the life of crime one tends to lead when on the drugs... tricking, stealing, robbing, dealing...

that was how i read it anyway. If heroin were legal, it would still have to be paid for, and they could then just rob the store of pharmacy selling the stuff and avoid all the middle steps. OC's are 'legal' and people rob pharmacies all the time.

I lived in a few family members when i was deep in my dope habit, my aunt that lived with me was far worse with booze than i was with dope. Guess who got the boot? yeah me, cause what i was doing is illegal. So yeah the stigma is there for several reasons, legality being a huge one.

Yep, you read it correctly. The point I was trying to make is people seem to play the part because it's expected of them. Suppose it was sold and regulated like alcohol and was socially acceptable. Would people be inclined to play the role of the thieving junky, or since they are no longer forced into the underground would they be inclined to be productive and functional individuals?

In my mind there would be alot more incentive to participate in society if we were actually accepted as part of it (meaning not a negative part of it).

--- auto merge ---


::snip::
IT IS A FUCKING CHOICE> But when people try and tell me "But you have a DISEASE..its NOT YOUR FAULT" Im think "who the fuck are you.. who are you apologizing for?"
::snip::



Well said! This is my biggest beef with AA/NA and the addict stereotype that most people perceive.

--- auto merge ---


Would anyone agree that by polarising the using / sober thing, they make it almost worse. I know for a lot of people, one slip up ends up being a habit but the attitude of fucking up once and crossing the line back into the warped mindset of "I'm on drugs, crazy and blameless" territory makes it harder to go back to being clean. You kinda think, well now I'm here might as well make it a run.

The best system I've seen is harm reduction, not total abstinence

Yet another shining example of why I dislike AA/NA. The whole if you "use once, you'll end up dead in a ditch" fear mongering just reinforces that whole "helpless and out of control" complex that is foisted upon people.

[SeVeN]

it's because drugs are expensive and they run out quick
and crime pays faster than a 9 to 5

Yes. Because the cost is expensive due to the illegality of it (actually most are relatively cheap in a sense). But they would be much cheaper, and many addicts might find a dose and sustain on it (even if high) if they were legal. Therefore living within societies laws and being able to maintain that habit. Drugs are associated with crime becasue of money.

[BobTheFiend]

Yes. Because the cost is expensive due to the illegality of it (actually most are relatively cheap in a sense). But they would be much cheaper, and many addicts might find a dose and sustain on it (even if high) if they were legal. Therefore living within societies laws and being able to maintain that habit. Drugs are associated with crime becasue of money.


Agreed. Drugs are expensive because of the risk associated with selling them. It wouldn't be worth the risk to sell them at a discount. The infrastructure to manufacture drugs is massive so the obvious bottleneck is in importation and distribution...both being complicated by legal issues.

The high price and sporadic supply certainly plays a part in some (most?) of the shadiness associated with drug users. The other stuff I mentioned before is the mental part of it, but the tangible stuff like supply, price, ect.. is a factor too. Dealing with the internal stuff was a bigger issue for me, but now that I'm straightened out the logistics of maintaining are the only remaining burden.

Like SeVen mentioned, if people could be guaranteed a sufficient fix of their DOC it would free them up to pursue more "noble" goals. I know from personal experience that the last thing I want to do is bum around when I'm high. After dosing, my house gets cleaned, work gets done, I go to social functions, and various other things I would normally be doing (albeit with more enthusiasm) if I wasn't busy searching for drugs.

If we truly have a disease like the Medical community and Gov't suggests then why are we being persecuted for it? This type of abuse would never stand if it were another "sickness" in question.

Or lets say it's a lifestyle, like being Homosexual. Are Gays being locked up in record numbers for simply practicing their lifestyle ? (I'm not going to touch on the Gay by choice or birth issue) Even though alot of people morally oppose Homosexuality, they are not treated with the same level of disdain and contempt that we face.

We've allowed ourselves to become 2nd class citizens facing heavy handed enforcement of laws counter to our very nature.

I've told many people that drug addicts/users are the new *insert crude racial remark here*

If we get caught (felony) we lose our right to vote, our right to protect ourselves (2A), possible Welfare benefits, educational grants, and potential lucrative employment because of our "criminal" record. God help you if you get branded with that big red "F" across your forehead!

Apologies for the rant, but I need to vent once in awhile :)

[candyman20]

it's because drugs are expensive and they run out quick
and crime pays faster than a 9 to 5

this plain and simple

[thatoneguy]

if they were legalized its not like they would be dirt cheap, they would be taxed to high hell and crimes would still be committed to obtain them. I've done plenty of dirt before to get alcohol.

[danny]

cause youre paying hundreds of pounds for shit thats worth pennies....

in the uk, a 3 litre bottle of white lightning cider @ 7.5% alcohol costs you around the 3 pound mark, 2 of them can keep an alcoholic going all day, 6 pound a day, less than twenty fags

crime from alcoholics is from SEVERE alcoholics robbing, or idiot fucking moves they make WHEN pissed as a fart

i guarantee you if six quids heroin kept your average addict in gear NOT FUCKING METHADONE the crime rate would fall like a stone

anyone wanna argue that point? cause if you do youre just wrong, simple as....

[thatoneguy]

6 bucks or 60 bucks still gotta get the money somehow. The cheaper it was the more I would be able to do therefore the higher my tolerance would be and the more dope I would need

[BobTheFiend]

6 bucks or 60 bucks still gotta get the money somehow. The cheaper it was the more I would be able to do therefore the higher my tolerance would be and the more dope I would need

You wouldn't feel more inclined to work if drugs were cheap, legal, and available? It's not like booze is expensive if you're willing to go bottom shelf liquor, malt liquor (40's), or jug/bag wine.

--- auto merge ---


cause youre paying hundreds of pounds for shit thats worth pennies....

in the uk, a 3 litre bottle of white lightning cider @ 7.5% alcohol costs you around the 3 pound mark, 2 of them can keep an alcoholic going all day, 6 pound a day, less than twenty fags

crime from alcoholics is from SEVERE alcoholics robbing, or idiot fucking moves they make WHEN pissed as a fart

i guarantee you if six quids heroin kept your average addict in gear NOT FUCKING METHADONE the crime rate would fall like a stone

anyone wanna argue that point? cause if you do youre just wrong, simple as....
Yep, Methadone and Suboxone are half measures in my opinion. I'd even go as far to say that the "cure" is worse than the disease when it comes to physical dependence and subsequent withdrawal. They aren't as inexpensive or available as they should be either.

The worst of the worst addicts are never going to change. Whether it's people who gorge on food and weigh 600lbs or drunks who guzzle cheap rotgut and still feel the need to steal for whatever irrational reason. I wish these people could be helped by legalization and acceptance, but they'll probably die (and ruin it for the rest of us).

[thatoneguy]

Yes I would be more likely to have a job, but the point is legal or not its still pretty difficult to be a productive member of society in active addiction

[Benz]

cause youre paying hundreds of pounds for shit thats worth pennies....

in the uk, a 3 litre bottle of white lightning cider @ 7.5% alcohol costs you around the 3 pound mark, 2 of them can keep an alcoholic going all day, 6 pound a day, less than twenty fags

crime from alcoholics is from SEVERE alcoholics robbing, or idiot fucking moves they make WHEN pissed as a fart

i guarantee you if six quids heroin kept your average addict in gear NOT FUCKING METHADONE the crime rate would fall like a stone

anyone wanna argue that point? cause if you do youre just wrong, simple as....



Exactly. A common plant alkaloid should cost pennies, the War On Drugs has caused a huge price inflation. Most ways of obtaining substantial cash very quickly are illegal. Almost everyone in jail in the UK is there because of drugs and/or addiction to them.

Once you're using drugs regularly, you have contact with people who are hustling, so it's not a huge step to be out of gear one day & need an idea to re-up your stash. Many dealers are also linked to prostitution. Another obvious step for someone in urgent need of drugs. These factors make it appear to be a moral deficiency when in fact it is action taken through desperation, the likes of which most people will never know. If they do, they'll never link it to what we feel.



Benz

[danny]

Yes I would be more likely to have a job, but the point is legal or not its still pretty difficult to be a productive member of society in active addiction

horseshit, ive been in active addiction for 18 years, the only problems have been in the last three when i started listening to the dickhead drug workers about doing more methadone to reduce the amount of gear i did, got to 90ml, turned into a bloated, depressive, lethargic eunuch, no work, physical as well as mental illness

the 15 years before that i was bang at the gear, my last two jobs were a recruitment consultant and a production planner/buyer....ive worked digging up roads/on the water board/as a storeman all while in 'active addiction'...if the gear cost what it was worth id be in a white collar job now and no cunt would know any different, i guarantee you it....

[thatoneguy]

Each person is different, I am sure you can understand that. Left to my own devices with a unlimited dirt cheap supply of dope I am sure I would fuck everything up.

I'm all for heroin maintenance and the end of the drug war, but I really don't think it should be cheap and unregulated. You're definitely not the standard when it comes to heroin addicts, at least the ones I've known.

[Benz]

I have to agree with Danny. The whole length of my active addiction (apart from when I was drinking..) I have had a job. There's no reason for it to stop you.

[thatoneguy]

I had a job for most my major addiction as well but as soon as I lost that job I was fucked. I'm not saying y'all are wrong and that it couldn't be done, but that it takes some major willpower and isn't all that easy.

Seriously though I have tons of respect to people who can have a major addiction and still hold their shit together

[Benz]

I said I had a job, I didn't say I had all my shit together.. Cup's half full though.



Benz

[Count Zero]

horseshit, ive been in active addiction for 18 years, the only problems have been in the last three when i started listening to the dickhead drug workers about doing more methadone to reduce the amount of gear i did, got to 90ml, turned into a bloated, depressive, lethargic eunuch, no work, physical as well as mental illness

the 15 years before that i was bang at the gear, my last two jobs were a recruitment consultant and a production planner/buyer....ive worked digging up roads/on the water board/as a storeman all while in 'active addiction'...if the gear cost what it was worth id be in a white collar job now and no cunt would know any different, i guarantee you it....

When I was a full on junkie I worked my ass off, much more than I do now that's for fucking sure. I've worked in Silicon Valley when the 9-5 was 8:30-7 M-F and 9 to 3 on Saturdays (Chinese bosses) and till 10 or 11 at night on the east coast for years, I basically worked most of the straighties under the table. Now I more or less don't give a fuck, we're just human beings, let's maybe get some work done, it's all good, we're gonna die soon, that kind of thing.

[duck]

im with Danny on this one.

[Thanat0s]

drugs make crime much easier.
drugs make it easier to pretend crime is fun.
crime pays the dope bills.

how could this fail?


edit:
topic:
http://forum.opiophile.org/images/icons/icon6.gif Re: Why do you suppose crime is associated with drug use?



because junkies.
(crakheads or methheads are also accpeptable answers)

[Flowergirl]

But does crime really pay? Over all, at the end of the day? In the long run, I think it costs more and destroys far more than it pays or provides a benefit. Education and a good job can easily pay one 6 figures, and that income and income from that income can last forever. I guess crime probably pays quicker, but the risk will catch you and fuck you in the end. I don't want to sound like I'm above it all with some simple fix. Hell, I do drugs, too.

[duck]

I agree completely FG. Especially for someone without a record, its never too late to work towards a good career. So then.you can do shit like home, friends, family etc.

But don't listen to me, I've been a total softie pussy since ending a recent relationship, I keep glamorizing relationships like a bitch.

[viking]

Im sure that this will piss some ppl off but.....

It has seemed to me that addiction (alcohol, pharmaceutical, and illegal drugs) always have some bullshit cop out and stereotype attached to them.

I've known several ppl who have been very respectable while smoking the slide or hitting the bottle nightly.
I think a lot of ppl really use it as a mechanism to do whatever the hell they want and have an excuse.

Oh and all their problems are because of said substances and not due to their own choices e.g. well I got fired cause of drugs

No you got fired cause you didn't go to work aid sat at hoke getting drunk/high all week.

I really feel that anyone who wants to change things can. But ask most abusers to give you a really honest no bullshit answer about if they want to quit and...........

[Count Zero]

No Fucking Way. I don't want to quit, I want to do more. But I can't because I'm an adult and I have responsibilities and my folks need me. It's nice and simple & that's the way it is.
@Duck, you should glamorize relationships mate, that's all there is, nothing else makes any difference at all.

[Flowergirl]

How many people out there use, but keep it to themselves? No one knows what I'm up to, that's for damn sure. We only hear the stories about drugs and the poor choices associated to them destroying lives, not the stories where a user keeps things well-controlled and their lives are entirely normal and productive. Hell, that can't get out there, drugs are bad and they kill, after all.

I've been playing for coming up on 5 years now, and I'm not a mess, nor can I become one. Letting my life and my family fall to pieces just isn't an option, period. But that isn't interesting and sure as hell will never be a headline. Crime sure makes the news though.

[viking]

How many people out there use, but keep it to themselves? No one knows what I'm up to, that's for damn sure. We only hear the stories about drugs and the poor choices associated to them destroying lives, not the stories where a user keeps things well-controlled and their lives are entirely normal and productive. Hell, that can't get out there, drugs are bad and they kill, after all.

I've been playing for coming up on 5 years now, and I'm not a mess, nor can I become one. Letting my life and my family fall to pieces just isn't an option, period. But that isn't interesting and sure as hell will never be a headline. Crime sure makes the news though.

Exactly. Gotta keep shit on the downlow:-)

[Indy]

Yep, FG is absolutely right. Someone who has a job at say an investment firm or something isn't going to come out and say "look at me, I'm a heroin junkie and I'm still successful!" because the stigma is there and they stand to lose it just by admitting that. Whereas the people who run their lives into the ground have no problem admitting they use drugs because what do they stand to lose?

[SHELLEY]

Agreed. Drugs are expensive because of the risk associated with selling them. It wouldn't be worth the risk to sell them at a discount. The infrastructure to manufacture drugs is massive so the obvious bottleneck is in importation and distribution...both being complicated by legal issues.


no, they are expensive because people are willing to pay those prices every time
production cost doesn't have much to do with monetary value
maybe an OC 80 costs a fraction of a penny to make- but what could YOU get for it?

--- auto merge ---


But does crime really pay? Over all, at the end of the day?

it can, just like any other high risk investment

[viking]

Shelly may he right...... what would happened if enron wouldn't have been caught??

[BobTheFiend]

How many people out there use, but keep it to themselves? No one knows what I'm up to, that's for damn sure. We only hear the stories about drugs and the poor choices associated to them destroying lives, not the stories where a user keeps things well-controlled and their lives are entirely normal and productive. Hell, that can't get out there, drugs are bad and they kill, after all.

I've been playing for coming up on 5 years now, and I'm not a mess, nor can I become one. Letting my life and my family fall to pieces just isn't an option, period. But that isn't interesting and sure as hell will never be a headline. Crime sure makes the news though.

The reason you don't hear alot about functional addicts is because they prefer to be anonymous. They have alot to lose if discovered by coworkers, employers, family, friends, ect... I revealed my drug use to a long time girlfriend and it forever changed that relationship (ultimately ending it). It became all about me getting clean, even though we were doing fine before she knew anything of it. She couldn't really list any negatives, save for it being illegal, yet it was constantly a source of conflict.

--- auto merge ---


Yep, FG is absolutely right. Someone who has a job at say an investment firm or something isn't going to come out and say "look at me, I'm a heroin junkie and I'm still successful!" because the stigma is there and they stand to lose it just by admitting that. Whereas the people who run their lives into the ground have no problem admitting they use drugs because what do they stand to lose?

Nothing, they stand to gain an excuse which they can pin all of their failures on.

--- auto merge ---


no, they are expensive because people are willing to pay those prices every time
production cost doesn't have much to do with monetary value
maybe an OC 80 costs a fraction of a penny to make- but what could YOU get for it?

--- auto merge ---



it can, just like any other high risk investment

Medicine is expensive. I'd rather see it distributed and priced like beer and cigarettes (preferably laxer than those even).

[viking]

Legalize dope and just tax it silly. Treat it like booze, id be happy
:-)