The Great White Grape Fruit Experiment

[Levity]

There’s always lots of talk about how, or even if, white grape fruit juice potentates opiates. I’ve looked everywhere that I can think of – including asking a few psycho-pharmacologists MD/PhD types – to find a conclusive, empirical answer to this question at hand. Unfortunately, no such answer is at hand.

So, in the greatest tradition academia and junky-dom, I’ve decided to devise an experiment to test how well grape fruit juice and tagament works on potentating an opiate high.

This is a work in progress, and I will update periodically on my findings. Depending on how this goes in the early stages, I may try to do this for a research project as part of my thesis. I’d love as much input, personal stories, advice, and encouragement as you guys can muster.

I’m going to spare you the scientific crap about enzymes, synapse thresholds, serotonin reuptake, opiate receptors, and blah fucking blah. This is barebones data you guys are getting… So, with no further ado, let’s begin.

Subject A (myself) – 26 year old white male, six foot, one inch, 361 pounds. Mild to moderate experience with opiates (defined as per DSM-IV, prescribed opiate use for three years plus, not exceeding 10mg morphine equiv per week).


Stage One – Withdraw and system flush. Subject has refrained from all opiate use for one month (30 days). Subject has taken only Tylenol at recommended doses, once to thrice weekly. No benzo use noted. Ambien 10mg used sparingly, on seven occasions during the 30 day period.

All dosages were taken in the subject’s apartment, at the same time, albeit on different days. No distractions were allowed. The subject used a tape recorder to record observations while channel surfing.

Baseline – 9.1.2006 – Subject A dosed on empty stomach (defined as zero caloric intake, zero solid food intake, only water, for 12 hours) with three, 10/325 hydrocodone/APAP Norco pills.

Dose + 45 minutes – Mild euphoria sets in.
Dose + 60 minutes – Stomach ache, minor nausea. Euphoria increases.
Dose + 75 minutes – Nausea quite sever. Dizziness. Vertigo. Euphoria very heavy. Warm body glow.
Dose + 90 minutes – Unpleasant side effects dissipating. Euphoria decreasing to warm body glow, sense of contentment.
Dose + 120 minutes – Euphoria ending. Lethargy quite pronounced.
Dose + 180 minutes – Limited trace of warmth and happiness. Sleep onset very soon.
Dose + 240 minutes – No euphoria. Sleepy, but not exhausted. A very pleasant experience. I missed those pills over the past month.

Tagament plus Baseline – 9.5.2006 – Previous dosage instructions as Baseline were followed, with the inclusion of one Tagament pill 45 minutes before dosage.

Dose – 45 Minutes – Tagament taken.
Dose + 30 minutes – Onset of mild euphoria. Identical to Baseline.
Dose + 60 minutes – No stomach ache. No nausea. Euphoria very strong. Similar to Baseline. Perhaps slightly better.
Dose + 75 minutes – Euphoria retains strength. No ill side effects, except slightly tired.
Dose + 90 minutes – Euphoria sill not coming down.
Dose + 120 minutes – Very noticeable decrease in euphoria. Very tired.
Dose + 180 minutes – Still slightly euphoric. Comparable to Dose plus 120 minutes with baseline.
Dose + 240 minutes – Slightly euphoric. Very, very tired.
Dose + 300 minutes – No euphoria. Must sleep.

Baseline and Baseline/Tagament Summary
The month of abstention reduced my tolerance to virtually nil. Following that, and as evidenced in the baseline, I was able to achieve a great deal of euphoria from 30mg of hydrocodone. The high was best in the first hour. However, upon dosing with Tagament, the better high lasted longer, into the second hour. It also started about fifteen minutes earlier. Most importantly, in my opinion, the Tagament served to reduce the negative side effects of nausea and dizziness, but did increase my lethargy following dosage.


Stage Two – System flush. No opiates are to be used for the next seven days. The next stage will involve two components. One, Baseline 8oz of White Grape Fruit Juice and Two, Baseline plus Tagament plus White Grape Fruit Juice.

[CUBErt]

Awesome experiment! I admire your ability to abstain for 30 days in order to get more accurate results. I have wanted to try similar experiments, but I can never get myself to stop for more than a week.

Once this is completed I would love to refer to it in my potentiation article, if I have your permission.

[Opiyum]

I read on ADH that it is best to take an antacid, maalox or Gaviscon etc., roughly fourty five minutes after taking either the GF Juice or the Tagamet.
Maybe you could add this step to the process to see if it helps to potetiate even more.
Great Job so far. Way to abstaine for one month. All in the name of Opiates!...or was it for science....either way great job.

[Levity]

Thank you both for your kudos. My habit isn't too bad, so it wasn't *that* hard... in retrospect anyway. And I did dose twice in that one months. Once when I just got myself an Oxy script and another time at a function with my fiance's grandparents. But on the whole, I don't think those two slips will matter much in the end result.

I've heard the same thing about the antacids. I have some Tums (smoothie flavored - yum). That may be an addition to stage three... Baseline plus Tagament, GFJ, Tums.

Great recomendation.

[SirDonkeyPunch]

if u went 30 days with no opies, i would expect the first time u take 3 norcos you may feel an unpleasant stomach since your tolerance isnt that high. then using them 4 days afterwards again, i could see how since the metabolites are fresh in your system and your used to it more again, the stomach discomfort may be alleviated somewhat..... just my 2 cents.

keep the research up.

[devilsdrug]

are u bored or what

[Levity]

are u bored or what

Of course I'm bored DD. But damnit man, this is for science!

SirDonkeyPunch - I've never had too much trouble with stomach discomfort. Ever. So I don't attribute that to the opies.

[antony]

I guess it's nice to know that the when sasquatch comes into the vets office for a broken leg, they know what dose is gonna work for him.;)

[Levity]

I guess it's nice to know that the when sasquatch comes into the vets office for a broken leg, they know what dose is gonna work for him.;)


I'm not quite that hairy, but yeah, there is a slight resembalance.

[Opuim4TheMasses]

And i thought i was a big guy @ 6'7" and 273lbs...

think your size effects the experiment?

[antony]

I've also been a fan of white grapefruit juice, when I have my script. But I take it opposite of you (too excited to wait 45 min.), where I dose, and the hydro kicks through, and when the initial euphoria wears off, thats when I drink the grapefruit juice and/or tums. The initial euphoria never comes back, till I re-dose about 4 or 5 hours later (expected, I know), but definatley a heavier nod.

But, I start with the juice, and the tums, when my tolerance is at its peak, and I'm at maybe the last 30 pills or so. maybe I should start earlier.

btw, its been months since I've had any opies, and think I'll be stopping by the witch doctor next week.

[RobOC]

I am not sure if this has been discussed before so I apologize in advance if it has. I have heard that tagament potentiation only has an effect if hydrocodone is used and it only affects the duration, not the intensity.
Awesome job on the expirament levity. Have you tried useing just a little food or milk before dosing with a pill that contains APAP, not haveing any food in ur stomach and taking all that APAP after being clean for so long could be the source of all the nausea. That or useing a pill like oxy or ms contin that has no APAP.

[antony]

I am not sure if this has been discussed before so I apologize in advance if it has. I have heard that tagament potentiation only has an effect if hydrocodone is used and it only affects the duration, not the intensity.
.


duration and intensity for me. without question. but, it could be placebo as well (in the question of intensity)

[RobOC]

I just recalled a time that I took 3 tagaments, not sure on the mg, and 3 and half 10mg norcos before an english class once. I was rather new to opiates at the time but i remeember being fucked up for the whole 3 hours. Like fucked up to the point of dysphoria. I am not sue if this was due to the tagament, low tolerance, or lack of food in my system, but I did not have a good experience and just stuck to eating my pills alone, or with ETOH to potentiate.

[antony]

I just recalled a time that I took 3 tagaments, not sure on the mg, and 3 and half 10mg norcos before an english class once. I was rather new to opiates at the time but i remeember being fucked up for the whole 3 hours. Like fucked up to the point of dysphoria. I am not sue if this was due to the tagament, low tolerance, or lack of food in my system, but I did not have a good experience and just stuck to eating my pills alone, or with ETOH to potentiate.


3, yea? for some reason, I get nervous about fucking up my gastro-intestinal tract more than it already is when I'm in a midst of a binge. maybe I shouldn't be.

[Levity]

A few quick things...

Yes, my weight will effect the intensity of my subsequent highs. Please note all my observations are qualitative and relative only to myself. The summaries I provide will be the best bet for extrapolating any real info from this "experiment."

Furthermore, because of my weight, I never actually catch a nod or get a huge rush. My highs are very mild compared to what you guys might get. On the plus side, opiate molocules are slightly fat soluable, so guess what - my highs last longer. Yay obesity!

My next experiment (which will be done on Thursday, by the way) will involve Tagament 45 minutes prior to dosing, GFJ with dose, and GFJ at the start of the high.
Part two (three days later, I think) I will do the above, but add GFJ at the epoch of the high to see if it lengthens the buzz.

And lastly, Tagament works with *any* orally injested opiate as it interfers with the rapid digestion and metabolization of the meds.

*edit - And don't forget, a good portion of this potentatio may actually just be placebo effect. I'm bored and this is one way for me to be a dork while getting fucked up.

[antony]

*edit - And don't forget, a good portion of this potentatio may actually just be placebo effect. I'm bored and this is one way for me to be a dork while getting fucked up.

really? I like to write sequals to the Star Trek movies.

In musical form.

9 out 10 geeks agree I'm their leader.

[Levity]

really? I like to write sequals to the Star Trek movies.

In musical form.

9 out 10 geeks agree I'm their leader.

hahaha...

But seriously... The old Star Trek was horrible. William Shatner sucked.


Just ask George Takai.



*rimshot*

[antony]

hahaha...

But seriously... The old Star Trek was horrible. William Shatner sucked.


Just ask George Takai.



*rimshot*

Takai sucks and gets rimshots, shatner just a bad ac..
oh I got ya.

[Levity]

I'm not called Levity for nothing.

[alowishus]

really? I like to write sequals to the Star Trek movies.

In musical form.

9 out 10 geeks agree I'm their leader.





:abduct: :abduct: :abduct: :abduct: :abduct: :abduct: :abduct: :abduct: :abduct: out of :puterwork think so.


(Opiyum has TWO log-ins????:rolleyes: :eyebrow: )

[antony]

I was the original funny man.

[Levity]

I was the original funny man.

Then I bow to your experiance, prowess, and age.
But hey, even Abbot has his Costello.
And Ricky had his Lucy.

We don't even need seperate beds.

[Opiyum]

My understanding is that the Tagamet and the GF juice have the same effect. Meaning useing both is of no benefit. Why not try a dose with GF juice alone then try one with Tagamet alone then do one with both then do one with Tagamet followed by Maloox and then do a GF juice followed by the Antacid.
Tagament works with *any* orally injested opiate as it interfers with the rapid digestion and metabolization of the meds.


This is true in every case except for Codiene. Codiene needs to be metabolized into morphine in the liver and if you prevent this metabolization than the codiene will have less of an effect. But who wants codiene to begin with.
I may be wrong on certain aspects of the above but i can find my source sometime in the near future. Connection allowing.

[alowishus]

SEE!!!!!

Speak of the devil, I told you so. I cracked the Opi-ony code.:p

[Opiyum]

what you all talkin bout

[devilsdrug]

opi it the cocktail dude we dont dis any aspects of it just like i wouldnt leave the grenadine out of a tequila sunrise i wont flush the codeine or any of it make any sense or am i just a tightwad ass

[vaxn8]

There’s always lots of talk about how, or even if, white grape fruit juice potentates opiates. I’ve looked everywhere that I can think of – including asking a few psycho-pharmacologists MD/PhD types – to find a conclusive, empirical answer to this question at hand. Unfortunately, no such answer is at hand.

Levity- Spend some more time looking into basic opiate metabolism. It is already well researched and proven. You will see exactly where CYP2D6 inhibitors will and won't work if you spend 10 minutes understanding the pathway. If you don't want to look into it, I explained it in another thread pretty recently.

[CUBErt]

That thread can be found here: http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?p=40893#post40893

[Levity]

Thanks for the referal Cube, but we all know opiate potentation is relative to the user.
I'm doing this mainly for myself, and letting you guys follow along with my fun.

I will look over the info you provided and see if I can adjust my work accordingly.

[devilsdrug]

its horrible when somebody has to sacrifice there body for science

[CUBErt]

its horrible when somebody has to sacrifice there body for science

Especially when it means abstaining from opiates! :eek:

[Levity]

Especially when it means abstaining from opiates! :eek:


No kidding.
The things I do for science!

[WarmCyanide]

Levity I'm soooo sorry if this is off topic but i have to say it since im arranging a ridiculous amount of flowers right now.

Levity's great white GFJ experience would be an excellent sequel to "James and the giant peach"


I'm sorry. Just being a jackass but I just had to get that off my chest. :puterwork

[Opiyum]

opi it the cocktail dude we dont dis any aspects of it just like i wouldnt leave the grenadine out of a tequila sunrise i wont flush the codeine or any of it make any sense or am i just a tightwad ass


Who has a tight ass? I like mine with a little padding...you all know the saying

[Levity]

Who has a tight ass? I like mine with a little padding...you all know the saying

That another fat joke?
You bastards.

[antony]

I don't think it was a fat joke.

i can't believe DD likes tequila sunrises. :p

[Levity]

It shoulda been a fat joke.
;-)

[Levity]

It shoulda been a fat joke.
;-)

[slugbone]

No kidding.
The things I do for science!


points for you on your worthy experiment. in celebration of your becoming the Dr. Jonas Salk of the opiate world i'll be drinking some grounds in your honor.

one thing i can say is that SoBe orange drink does a pretty good job of masking the crap taste of the grounds. i ran out of GF juice and metamucil the other day, and since i am too lazy to go to the store i used what i could find. when i run out of that i'll be using some crystal light powder and see how that works.

[insanesteveo]

points for you on your worthy experiment. in celebration of your becoming the Dr. Jonas Salk of the opiate world i'll be drinking some grounds in your honor.

one thing i can say is that SoBe orange drink does a pretty good job of masking the crap taste of the grounds. i ran out of GF juice and metamucil the other day, and since i am too lazy to go to the store i used what i could find. when i run out of that i'll be using some crystal light powder and see how that works.

off topic, but i have used kool aid packets before. worked ok, they were the unsweetened kind. still worked to mask the flavor though.

[antony]

off topic, but i have used kool aid packets before. worked ok, they were the unsweetened kind. still worked to mask the flavor though.

"you guys never got anything that matches. Ketchup, no musturd, Kool-Aid, no sugar."
"shut up smokey."

[insanesteveo]

"you guys never got anything that matches. Ketchup, no musturd, Kool-Aid, no sugar."
"shut up smokey."

hahahahaha, YES!
i wish i could give you points again, but i already did. and there was another thread i wanted to give you more on too. about sucking balls, of adderal. i missed you antony. hug me!

[antony]

hahahahaha, YES!
i wish i could give you points again, but i already did. and there was another thread i wanted to give you more on too. about sucking balls, of adderal. i missed you antony. hug me!

go wash your finger off, and i will.