LD50

[Levity]

I know I know this, or at least have it in a textbook somewhere, but can someone tell me the LD50s of the following opiates?

Hydrocodone
Oxycodone
Morphine

Thanks. This is to settle a bet at work; I'm not trying to figure out a way to out myself. ;)

[insanesteveo]

no one can tell you this because no one knows.

its been asked in other threads, one major one.

if you would have searched you would have known that.

[Levity]

no one can tell you this because no one knows.

its been asked in other threads, one major one.

if you would have searched you would have known that.

I'm looking for any information at all, including animal studies with monkeys and rats. It's not too much work to extrapolate a LD50 for the opiate naive from that kind of information.

As for the fact that no one knows, I disagree. Animal-based LD50 research is required for any medication before the Food and Drug Administration approves testing with - much less prescription for - humans.

Upon searching for "LD50," eighteen results are returned. I combed through each one looking for LD50 information, but most replies run along the lines of, "Well 30mg makes me sick. Do less than that." While helpful, that is not exactly what I'm looking for.

So once again, does anyone know the LD50 for Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, and/or Morphine? If so, can you point me in the direction of the source where you gleaned that information?

Thank you.

[bronyraur]

check out this web page, it gives lots of LD50's (whether or not they're correct, I can't say). hope this helps.

http://ash.spaink.net/ld50.html

[Levity]

Beautiful, exactly what I was looking for.

If anyone has any other links, I'd love those too. I'm building an argument against one of my coworkers, and I'd like to go with loaded with info.

[insanesteveo]

if you did comb through those searches enough, you would have found an entire thread about someone begging for the ld50 for oxy, and you will see that its not listed in that link you were so happy to get. neither is morphine. you just dont know with opiates, since tolerance and body chemistry play such a huge part.

also, you could have specified ld50 for humans AND animals would help. either way, you arent going to find much information, anywhere.

[Levity]

if you did comb through those searches enough, you would have found an entire thread about someone begging for the ld50 for oxy, and you will see that its not listed in that link you were so happy to get. neither is morphine. you just dont know with opiates, since tolerance and body chemistry play such a huge part.

also, you could have specified ld50 for humans AND animals would help. either way, you arent going to find much information, anywhere.

I'm just going to go ahead and say this, since it has come up once or twice before.

If I don't know opiates, please explain to me why I’m a Doctoral candidate for a PhD in Biopsychology with a research emphasis in addiction and behavior? Furthermore, if I’m so naïve, please explain why I work six hours a day, every day, advising and treating everyone from heroin addicts to soccer moms who take too many valiums.

But you’re right, tolerance dose play a large part, which is why LD50s are calculated in the drug-naïve. As far as body chemistry, that is controlled by random sampling methods and other research design protocols.

Lastly, there is no reason to be a dick. We’re all here for information and camaraderie. Sorry if I somehow offended you with my question. Maybe and LD50 murdered your dog when you were growing up and even thinking of it makes you angry. So, my bad.

Have a great day everyone. And thanks for the information that’s been PMed to me. It saved me a trip to the library.

[insanesteveo]

I'm just going to go ahead and say this, since it has come up once or twice before.

If I don't know opiates, please explain to me why I’m a Doctoral candidate for a PhD in Biopsychology with a research emphasis in addiction and behavior? Furthermore, if I’m so naïve, please explain why I work six hours a day, every day, advising and treating everyone from heroin addicts to soccer moms who take too many valiums.

But you’re right, tolerance dose play a large part, which is why LD50s are calculated in the drug-naïve. As far as body chemistry, that is controlled by random sampling methods and other research design protocols.

Lastly, there is no reason to be a dick. We’re all here for information and camaraderie. Sorry if I somehow offended you with my question. Maybe and LD50 murdered your dog when you were growing up and even thinking of it makes you angry. So, my bad.

Have a great day everyone. And thanks for the information that’s been PMed to me. It saved me a trip to the library.

dude, i didnt say YOU didnt know opiates, i said "you dont know with opiates" as in, everyone doesnt know. not singling you out. opiates are a tricky thing. but since youre the big college guy, you knew that.

and i would think if you are in school and work in that field that you would know a better resource to find that info than on an opiate forum on the internet.

either way, yea, i did come off as an ass, and im sorry, i always come off as an ass. maybe thats why i dont have friends. im lonely, will you hug me?

[Levity]

Consider yourself hugged my man.
Sorry if I came off like an ass too.

And yeah, I could have went to the library and researched it, but I'm lazy.
But sadly, I'll be there Tuesday anyway doing research, so I'll look it up then.

[alowishus]

I'm just going to go ahead and say this, since it has come up once or twice before.

If I don't know opiates, please explain to me why I’m a Doctoral candidate for a PhD in Biopsychology with a research emphasis in addiction and behavior? Furthermore, if I’m so naïve, please explain why I work six hours a day, every day, advising and treating everyone from heroin addicts to soccer moms who take too many valiums.

I don't know?

Why don't you already know this shit if you're a Doctoral candidate for a PhD in Biopsychology. Furthermore if we look at the big brain on Brad why doesn't he know where to find the answers other then asking a bunch of internet wired junkies? Who would have alot less of the resources then said Doctoral candidate, (Brad). If you are naive it's because you believe all human behaviour, heroin addicts to soccer moms who take too many valiums, are all based on they're genetics and neurotransmitters and everything WILL be fixed be a Rx and/or an electric shock.

And nor do I believe you feel sorry for spouting from your ass, you've had that post copy and pasted from somewhere so that MUST mean you've used it before or were just waited to for someone to come along so you can hang your career path over thier head w/ levity.

Stuff your accolades and accomplishments right up your neurotransmitter!

:p Quake.:p

And don't read too far into it, I mean what I say to mean; think I need to change my name to DD.:o

[Hammilton]

You'd have a hard time finding the information in humans. It's not too often they give massive doses to humans, and when people OD, that sort of information get's really jumbled.

In animals it's a lot easier. My understanding of the opiate LD50 tests is that tolerance isn't a huge issue they way they're done.

It's my understanding that they're not looking for the LD50 where death is caused by respiratory depression. From my studies they were hookin the various animals up to artificial respiration, not just dosing them and letting them to themselves.

I mean, in extraordinarily high doses, there is a toxicity from all of the narcotics. Of course, this toxicity (for most of the narcotics) level rises with tolerance, so that only a massive OD will show the other-than-respiratory-depression causes of death.

I think that heart problems is the main cause at these levels (when oxygen is maintained).

Hammilton

[Levity]

I don't know?

Why don't you already know this shit if you're a Doctoral candidate for a PhD in Biopsychology. Furthermore if we look at the big brain on Brad why doesn't he know where to find the answers other then asking a bunch of internet wired junkies? Who would have alot less of the resources then said Doctoral candidate, (Brad). If you are naive it's because you believe all human behaviour, heroin addicts to soccer moms who take too many valiums, are all based on they're genetics and neurotransmitters and everything WILL be fixed be a Rx and/or an electric shock.

And nor do I believe you feel sorry for spouting from your ass, you've had that post copy and pasted from somewhere so that MUST mean you've used it before or were just waited to for someone to come along so you can hang your career path over thier head w/ levity.

Stuff your accolades and accomplishments right up your neurotransmitter!

:p Quake.:p

And don't read too far into it, I mean what I say to mean; think I need to change my name to DD.:o

1. In Brad's big brain there is a lot of information, most of it not readily available. Sometimes, I forget shit that I learned a few years ago. Like the other day at work when I got into a discussion with a friend about this issue and I forgot what the LD50s are for certain drugs. A hour later, and I end up in a bet that says I can't find the information without having to crawl through the library all weekend. While a bunch of internet wired junkies may not be the best source of information, often times the people on this site know alot of things about drugs - alot more than me, my peers, or my professors. For example, the source information for LD50 studies financed by the FDA. So, what would have taken me hours to find on PsychINFO or AcademicAccess, took me minutes to have PMed to me.

2. I wasn't trying to hang my carrer path or accolades over anyone's head. It has come up a few times as to how I know esoteric information on certain subjects (see White Grape Fruit Juice or MDMA) or why I have attempted to advise certain members to look for professional help. It's because I'm in school to learn things like that so I can do things like that. If I could spend less time defending my posts and more time having fun on this board, maybe it's worth mentioning the private details of my life.

3. If some of my posts look copy and pasted, it's because they are. I usually write them in Word to spell and grammar check. Then I proofread them. It's a good habit, and good etiquette.

4. Lastly, all human behavior is based on neurotrasmitters. Genetics is just an excuse.

[WarmCyanide]

Stuff your accolades and accomplishments right up your neurotransmitter!



BUMPERSTICKER ALERT! :deal2: May even be signature-worthy

[alowishus]

BUMPERSTICKER ALERT! :deal2: May even be signature-worthy

Do it up - 50/50 split. Just call me Forest; Forest Gump.

Levity you understood what I said and you didn't throw stones, karma for you my man. I get very disappointed in peeps and thier cast systems of better then thou because.......;

"There's always someone cleverer than yourself." -Merlin; Excalibur.

Great movie BTW.

Lastly, all human behavior is based on neurotrasmitters. Genetics is just an excuse.

Anyhoo, isn't the base of your field build upon neurotransmitters and genetics; BIO-psychology. I'm not gonna get into a debate about it, doesn't genetics presuppose what my neurotransmitters and the like are going to do, be, and fuck up? I'll drop some accolades and accomplishments for you, ma sis is a Doc., corect title is Genetic Engineer; among others she hangs on the wall in a frame, but mostly she's a MD, likes all the blood and guts; always did, as a kid she'd love too pick at scabs and play w/ puss..... she's the black sheep of the family.

Anyway back to the train, so lets say we can pick apart the DNA chain and "fix" the part that leave peeps w/ low serotonin levels, say the BIO-psychology peeps no more depression, yah!!! pats on the back for everyone.

But the kid that's been beat by his drunk dad since birth, saw his mom beaten almost every night and now you couldn't even tell it was the same women from 4 years ago because of all the broken bones and noses, etc etc, saw his dog clubed to death by his dad becasue it shit on the floor, never got through highschool and works as a dishwasher in a diner his whole life.
Well fuck he may have a low serotonin level, but to say that that is the reason for his depression, and you give him a Rx, and that's it, another one fixed and saved by BIO-psychology. Let's just go back to ice pick lobotomies.

And I hope you were only joking about genetics being an excuse.

BTW there is a spell check you can use here. I can't spell for shit, helps me a hole bunch. (that's a joke):rolleyes:

Well gotta go, my movies on.....


Forgot to say that I think, and boy alot of others feel the same way that, "all human behavior is based on neurotrasmitters", is a big bowl of cock cheese.

[Levity]

Well I'll just say this about the whole Nature vs. Nuture debate...

DNA affects how the brain CAN work; it gives a range in which we can operate.
Everything else, our past experiances, our current expectations, our goals and value systems - what guys like ne call the Sum of Reinforcement - effects HOW the brain works. This tells us what the brain does in that range in which it can operate.

Because as a psychologist I can't fix a person who has defective serotonin receptors, I can only treat the symptoms of his disease. I can do that with pills - which will get him to a functioning state, or it will normalize the range in which his brain can function - and with therapy - which will teach him how to function in ways that will best meet his needs within that new range, defeating his previous conditioning.

My job is to use medicines to get a person to a normal state of functioning, then use theraputic techniques to teach them how to function in that new state. Ideally, the result is a well-adjusted indivdual who can then be gradually weaned off the medicines as the new living techiques take a firmer hold in their life.

[alowishus]

So then Levity does everyone get a Rx?
I mean that comes too you or another treatment place - in YOUR view?

I once dated a girl whom thought that all depression and the like was in the head; no pun intended. She thought that it was all just your imagination.... A side note; she also didn't believe in plate tectonics. No really, thought the world was a big ball of dirt. We didn't date real long......


So for you it's the opposite, everyone's issue is based on their biology.
The Nature vs. Nuture debate...well didn't that guy raised his children (some) in boxes the test his theories?

I think it is a combo of both, yes some people are wired wrong right, well as the synapses were forming at the young ages that they do was there something that caused the wrong wiring or did they just foul up by themselves, poor genes? Was it formed in the womb, was it when he fell and hit his head hard on the floor at a young age, or is everything upstairs dandy and someone fucked w/ his head so much that he straps a bomb on and kills a couple dozen people for what ever reason he feels is justified.

So you're a Psychologist and were feeling just all too generalized (no GAD jokes please) and now are branching out, you've put in your thoughts and you are backing fully the Bio-ist, so are you guys trying to be like the Cosmologists now and wrap everything up nice and neat in it's own little place that all fits perfect into the rest of someone's life? Personality predictions? Computer models of all the thoughts a person could ever have and how too fix them of that......

All of a sudden I feel as though I've stepped into the movie Brazil. Bad juju.

Of all things I think it was a DuPont ad that got me thinking about it - the human element - you can NEVER predict it, "all human behavior is based on neurotrasmitters"...... C'mon Doc, I'll give you some time to think on that before I hold it to you.

Gotta run, guess it's like quantum particles, not only can they be in more then one space but also in more then one time, predict that!!!!:D

[antony]

my cats breath smells like cat food.

[alowishus]

That's old, you've used that one before cheater.:p

[antony]

That's old, you've used that one before cheater.:p


really? I don't remember. hmmm....

I'm sure I can't use "My cat's name is mittens" so keep speaking psycology (one of the rare topics antony can't join in on), and Ill think of another.