HOLY FUCK I've been sick..

[chopstix]

This is bad, I've been advised by a friend who's been through this to go to the hospital and I might if it doesn't conitinue to improve..

Most know I'm on a benzo taper, but I've never been THIS bad so far. I'm also trying to cut out the drink, and that may be the problem, but I'm taking WAY more benzos than I usually do try to shake WTF has been going on with me, and I just took another 10mg Valium, and a mg of ativan and 20mg hydro.. I've been fuxed for about 24hrs, started out needing sleep it, so I took a big dose of phenibut about 24hrs ago (that maybe the problem, I'll reflect a bit more when I feel better).. Then I slept for a bit, woke up feeling worse, and have felt on the verge of seizing for about 24hrs now; I'm getting auditory and some both open and closed eye hallucinations (no, it's not the DMT, I can tell and it's gone, and I haven't had any SP yet).

I've also been having this brain "skipping" thing - it's very hard to describe, curious as to if anyone aside from me and SJ have experienced this; I'm also losing pieces of time - coinciding with the hallucinations and with short periods of what sometimes feels like I'm falling asleep (and also with the hallucinations), but when I sleep I wake up feeling like I could be close to seizing and it's not really sleep, this has BEEN really fucking scary.

I've been having a hard time reading and typing, this is the best I've felt for awhile, NO more phenibut, it seems to be wearing off and I think the rebound from it (coinciding with the benzo and alky tapering) has caused a lot of this - it's probably fine if you're not GABA agonist dependent, but if u are u may want to avoid it, or at least multi gram doses, I do think that it caused a lot of this, but this has been fucked, the only reason I haven't gone to the hospital is because I don't want a bunch of drug shit on my record, and the one that's close has been treating me for the car wreck I was in and I don't want those records crossed.. But, these, both auditory and visual hallucinations have been scary, along with the "brain skips" and rapid onset "oh shit here it comes" feelings of possible seizure onset have been SCARY, I keep nodding off and then wake up feeling like "here comes the seizure" is scaring me shitless; I'm feeling better over the last few hours, LOTS of valium and some hydrocodone seem to be helping; I'll post back after I get some sleep that I think is finally coming, but this REALLY fucking sucks..

[Benz]

Shit Chopstix, they are CERTAINLY GABA agonist rebound symptoms. You might remember, I'm on a benzo taper & used to have a hefty GHB habit.

The symptoms you describe I definitely recognise from coming off GHB. You did what I would have done. Loaded up on a long acting benzo to get your system saturated.

It really is nasty, isn't it? Anything that messes with the GABA receptors can cause some truly frightening symptoms.



Benz

[chopstix]

Thx Benz, I appreciate the feedback, the little support I've had has helped a lot.

It is *NASTY* - I've been warned, but never through this before, especially this bad - the hallucinations and cognitive impairment creep me out - I sincerely appreciate any feedback from anyone who's been through this.. This is a whole new world of "sick."

[danny]

auntie was a benzo freak when uk doctors dished em out like candy, gave up before they knew about tapering etc, she will not take ANYTHING now, not even fuckin aspirin, had full on hallucinations of spiders on the walls, thought she was going mad

other female relative is tapering now at what seems to be ridiculously slow rate off valium, a mill a week, anything more is too much, ill have to ask my mom cause i think shes the only one of her 4 sisters that hasnt been addicted to benzos, add some female cousins in to the mix too

sorry i cant help personally chops except by sending good wishes

[chopstix]

Thx Danny, just found some Seroquel, I don't trust the stuff but just ate 50mg and more valium and ativan; I'll deal with the repercussions later.. I think the benzos are helping..

[danny]

all i can say mate is much as you would like to dont push it too quick, i have to remember that with methadone, but as you rightly pointed out benzos are a whole different ballgame...

[Larry]

Bro I was in the same boat as you, I also had a seizure... Fuck I wish Christine/Wisegal was still a member on here because she could give you a boatload of advice regarding xanax and seizures... girl went through 3 of em. The last time I had a seizure was a few years ago... Shit came out of no where... Just felt extreme and I mean extreme anxiety like I had never felt before and within 2 minutes I knew something was seriously seriously wrong. next thing i know my brother found me called the paramedics... fuckin cops came too, luckily by the time they arrived I was just coming too alittle disoriented but was fine. Lately i started fucking with benzos again and started to think I might have another seizure

Do you occassionally get "zaps", like where your muscles will twitch for no reason what so ever only lasts for a second, but I noticed when I cold turkeyed the zaps were getting increasingly worse then by the 5-6 days they progressivly slowed down and eventually stopped.

If your not feeling right, bite the bullet goto the ER, Unlike Opiate Addiction which makes you feel like you want to die benzos will get the job done. If you goto the ER, They will write you an RX for something to taper off of, probably only because they are worried you could have a seizure while driving or something. If you think you can try to wing it for another 24 hours if its still bad or getting worse, get off the board and get to an ER Stat... I hope someone can chime in who knows more

When I was in the ER for the xanax seizure I was seriously taking a lot, all they did for me was give me an IV of electolytes and thats basically it, I had an appointment the following day with my pcp so I didnt push to get anything.

Best Wishes

[Thanat0s]

... I think the benzos are helping...

uh, ya think?

[Flowergirl]

I haven't been through anything like that, but I sure am worried about you! You're not alone, are you? Please be careful, and take care of yourself. <3

[upstate_007]

Damn chops. That sounds real fucked up, what you are going through. I have no advice since I don't, and never have fucked with benzos. But, RE: the hospital........

Going to the one close to you that you used for the wreck would be a bad idea as you mentioned. If shit gets worse and you need medical attention. I think you will know if and when that is since you are pretty damn in tune with your body. Go to another hospital and use a fake name. If you are hallucinating and shit they probably would not expect too much in the way of personal info when you check in anyway.

Just don't hesitate to get some help if you need it.

Hope shit gets better for you man.

[chopstix]

I do have someone here and she's up to date and keeping an eye on me, and she has exp. with seizures with an old friend.. I've never really felt like I should be watched before, this is eery..

My doc knows a bit, but I think I need a better one..

edit@Larry: I've talked to WG about her Xanax seizures, she has nothing to offer - said she never had ANY warnings, that she recognized..

[paups]

Hey Chops, Im sorry you are not feeling well.. I would be freaked a bit too I am sure but I know that you at least have on your side your solid resolve, knowledge of your holistic being and hopefully the support of your friend to keep an eye on you..

Overall LISTEN to your body.. I am not experienced with GABA drugs or even benzos really but I think we all know when we feel wrong vs "right" and if you are trying to taper/quit you are probably doing the right thing for YOU.

I would never suggest the "mind over matter" to anyone besides you to some extent and that comes solely from a place where I believe you are usually as self aware in both mind and body as one can be.. beyond your addictions etc.

Sorry I don't have any solid advice regarding these chemicals etc.. really just meant this post as positive vibes and a reminder that we know you are a strong and brilliant one but sometimes if it gets too overwhelming seeking medic help may be nec. but hopefully you will know if you reach that point.

I would say just break down your time.. try and meditate and/or keep yourself busy with something non strenuous.. hour by hour..drink alot of fluids and attempt to rest and not fret. If you can taper back up a dose to slow the onset of what you are experiencing and this makes you more comfortable.. by all means try it.

I have alot of faith in your personal self awareness.. I think you ARE in tune with your mind/body/spirit more than most people I know.

YOU WILL get thru.. I know fer sure.

Good luck and much <3 my dear..:o

[blackman]

Damn, chops. I dont have much personal experience to offer, but you have my emotional support. Everyone I've spoken to who has had multiple seizures says they know when they're coming. Some scary shit I imagine.

Hang in there man.

[buc]

As you know I quit a decades long benzo addiction back in 2000.
I went through the symptoms you are experiencing now.
It freaks me out to hear you describe the "brain skipping thing" it is scarey and very hard to articulate the feeling.
I ended up having three seizures before it was all over............I hope you don't have to go there.
I'm praying for your relief.
Hang in there Chops...........
Buc

[Larry]

I do have someone here and she's up to date and keeping an eye on me, and she has exp. with seizures with an old friend.. I've never really felt like I should be watched before, this is eery..

My doc knows a bit, but I think I need a better one..

edit@Larry: I've talked to WG about her Xanax seizures, she has nothing to offer - said she never had ANY warnings, that she recognized..


Bro If you can get a hold of some Lyrica which works with Gaba I would think it would help

[Saint]

How much did you drink/how many benzo's did you take and how much are you taking now? As far as I know alcoholics too need to taper slowly. Never just quit drinking if you are used to drinking all day/a lot.

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time but am also relieved that someone is watching you.
Don't hesitate to go to the ER if things get worse. Having a drug record sucks but your health is a tad more important than that now..

[Benz]

I had no warning (or memory) of my clonazepam w/d seizure. All I know, I was told. I ran out THAT day & went to work feeling progressively more anxious & malaised. I got home and went to bed feeling like I'd taken too much speed or cocaine. This progressed into visual & auditory hallucinations. I blacked out & came to on the floor, having bounced out of bed.

GHB withdrawals caused severe hallucinations of the same type with fits. At one point I felt depersonalisation. The hallucinations were very hard to describe. Very very unpleasant. Cognitive deficits also.

If this shit continues you really should go to ER. I believe they have a duty of care to medicate you. Also work on getting a good doctor to do you a proper taper.



Benz

[Import]

Best wishes Chops, that shit sounds fucking miserable. No more phenibut man!!! Those euphoric gaba drugs feel wonderful, but you pay to play.

I've never been through gaba agonist w/d's before. Is it mostly just overstimulation and scary cognitive issues, or is there that "need to get out of my skin" restlesness and other aspects of opioid withdrawals also (chills, depression).

Is it a totaly different kimd of misery or are there similarities. I just can't handle opi w/d's anymore.

[fauxflavored]

i have no experience with benzo W/D, but wouldn't taking "LOTS" of Valium essentially just restart the whole W/D process?

[SuperJunky]

Best wishes Chops, that shit sounds fucking miserable. No more phenibut man!!! Those euphoric gaba drugs feel wonderful, but you pay to play.

I've never been through gaba agonist w/d's before. Is it mostly just overstimulation and scary cognitive issues, or is there that "need to get out of my skin" restlesness and other aspects of opioid withdrawals also (chills, depression).

Is it a totaly different kimd of misery or are there similarities. I just can't handle opi w/d's anymore.

There are similarities, you feel like you need to get out of your skin, restless leg type stuff, but it is a totally different hell. The worst is dealing w/ both at once. I've been through GHB/GBL WD before, that sucked, was probably worst than benzo WD, luckily I had benzos to help. I've had seizures in benzo WD, I wanted to kill myself, but was too shaky to load the gun. I sat there crying falling in and out trying to load the gun, seizure after seizure. I couldn't think at all, my entire body ached, electric pulses, time lapses, skipping, hallucinations, shadows, hellaciouse dreams, if I could have gotten the bullets in the gun I'd be dead. No joke.

At one point i ended up in benzo and methedone WD at the same time, on top of not sleeping for three + weeks and having to take tweak to take care of a friend that was in a really nasty car accident. One of the worst days of my life, being completly spun, running out of kpins and valium at the same time on top of methedone WD, thank god I had a doctors appointment that day. I ended up being ten minutes late because I was so anxious I had to fix in the car before I could go in. I must have the most understanding doc in the world for him to still write me scripts walking in all tweaked out short on all my pill counts etc. but I couldn't watch my friend that had the car accident sit there in pain while I had methedone and benzos. It all worked out in the end, by the skin of my teeth. Surprised I didn't have a seizure that go around, I was running on pure adrenaline. Having something to do does seem to help.

Chops, don't scare me like that, I really thought you where dead this morning. I hope your feeling better. If not, by now, GO TO THE FUCKIN HOSPITAL. NOW. >>>>> If I knew your address I'd be sending an ambulance...


EDIT: ^^^ Yes, taking valium will restart the process, not taking valium (or some other benzo) will kill you.

[TigerFan]

Benzo withdrawal is absolutely awful. Came off ativan years ago and the experience made me afraid to touch them again. Opiate withdrawal is agonizing, but I truly felt that I was losing my mind coming off 6mgs ativan.

I learned a great deal from http://www.benzo.org.uk/

This might be the "junkie doctor logic" in me, but can't you just increase your opiate intake while decreasing the benzos? Opiate withdrawal has been bad, but benzo withdrawal brought on true breaks in reality. "Psychotic episodes" as they say.

I never saw the day I would be off and I NEVER want to experience that again.

Truly awful stuff.

[Import]

God, I don't know if I could survive benzo withdrawal then. The restless legs and arms/hands are the most agonizing part for me. Not being able to sleep for days, being so incredibly exhausted, and STILL not able to sleep because my legs and arms feel so awful.

Restless limbs don't sound too bad from simple description, but that aspect has brought me close to suicide many times. Combine it with all the other horrors of withdrawal and I really do start to go insane after a few days. Gaba agonist withdrawal sounds like my worst fucking nightmare.

I hope you're doing OK Chops. This shit just sounds so scary.

I had a recent experiece where I had to go five days without my methadone. After day four I was planning on killing myself because of the agony. The ONLY reason I am still alive is that I knew I would be getting better soon. If it wasn't for loperamide, I would have killed myself quite a while ago during some kick or another. I'm very sensitive to withdrawals nowadays. Not one day goes by now that I don't regret being on methadone. I just want to be free of this shit, I can't handle withdrawal anymore!

Sorry for the babble, withdrawal has been on my mind a lot recently. I'm only 24...I can't even imagine how bad the withdrawals will get if I keep using for another ten years. I really don't know how you older junkies do it.

Haha I'm reallynnot trying to make this about me. I just couldn't resist getting this shit off my chest.

[motox7]

gotta go thru the tough times to get to the good ones, also brain skipping thing, ik wut u mean, i tripped acid lets sayyyy a few times, and i alwasy got this kind of...pulling snap of the brain and get this kind of time missing thgin (not sure if that's how i would actually describe it) , and yeah it only happened while i was trippin? so maybe i know wut your saying? I'd prolly try and stop using everything for awhile to clean system out

[chopstix]

^^Um.. No you don't; unless you've been in severe GABA agonist wd, your acid trip isn't even close.. And if I just stopped using everything, I'd die - you can't "just quit" this shit..

Better now, NO MORE gaba-bs for a long time, I just can't backpedal on the benzos like this, fortunately I had a small surplus, but I suspect I'll be paying for this one, lesson learned. Ya Saint, I am trying to taper off the drink, but maybe too fast.. I dunno, I think this was a combination of things.

This is the second time in two weeks that I've been this sick (both very bad but I wasn't hallucinating the last time), and both have been horrific experiences - don't do this to yourself, I thought acute opiate wd was bad, it sucks but this shit is just downright TERRIFYING - like, am I coming back from this? How much damage is the seizure gonna do?? Very scary shit..

Thx all.. Please don't do this to yourself..

[Morphus]

That phenibut is bad news, especially on top of all the other depressants. I took a 10 or 15 G overdose once and didn't feel right for a week; I just could not sleep. I can't imagine what chronic use would do to a guy, let alone use in conjunction with 2 other gnarly downers whose WD can be fatal. Take care of yourself man.

[chopstix]

I don't use it daily, maybe 2-3x wk/max - but no more, the last one was ~10g (I'm pretty tolerant so I take big doses), but no more.. Not for a long while, I'd rather be sleep deprived than go through that hell again.

[I'm-Nod-Addicted]

Fuck man, that sounds like an absolute nightmare! I got a bad feeling inside while reading this thread.



Glad you made it through!!!

[the good doctor]

Lyrica and Neurontin would help, as would Gabitril and vigabatrin/Sabril or whatever the fuck it's called, but other anti-convulsants wont, and neuroleptics, including Seroquel, LOWER THE SEIZURE THRESHOLD, so DO NOT USE THEM IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, and some people swear by a few swigs of hard liquor to help them. Baclofen also lowers the seizure threshold, and it is a chlorinated analogue of phenibut, so I imagine phenibut would lower it to.

Let's do some maths:

SEROQUEL = LOWERED SEIZURE THRESHOLD
+PHENIBUT = LOWERED SEIZURE THRESHOLD
+BENZO WITHDRAWAL = MAJOR LOWERED SEIZURE THRESHOLD
+ALCOHOL WITHDRAWAL = DITTO
____________________________

A REALLY BAD FUCKING SEIZURE

Remember, one thing at a time, don't try to quit your drinking the same time you're trying to quit your benzos and vice verse, and don't fuck with neuroleptics, phenibut, antivirals, or fluoroquinolone antibiotics, as they all lower the seizure threshold or antagonise GABA-A. If you need to quit drinking due to Hep C or something or other, go to your benzo doc and ask him to go back up a few milligrammes on the Valium and wait there until you're off the booze and then resume the benzo taper, or stop tapering the liquor until you're off the benzos for a few months.

[chopstix]

Good info, if phenibut lowers the threshold, then that explains it. Both the phenibut and seroquel gave me some sleep, I almost just took more seroquel but decided against it. I just loaded up on benzos and phenergen and am working on a 6pack.. I'll go get my own V and back up if I have to..

I wish my doc would back up on the dose, but she won't, and she doesn't know about the ativan and alcohol - the last time I got sick was about 10 days after a 1mg valium cut and a .5mg ativan cut - TOO much, way too much. My valium taper is slow (1mg/mo), but it still fux me up for a couple weeks.. 11mg now and probably a year to go on this shit. Fucking sucks, bad.. Skullcap and GABA help modulate, but it all still SUX.

[Saint]

Sounds like you have to do a really slow and drawn out taper on the valium and the booze. I am doing the same thing right now. Stocked up on valium 10's and want to go down by 2.5 mgs every two weeks (which isn't exactly slow but I can only get my hands on valium 10 so I need to break them in fours..).
I don't know how much you usually drink. I drink daily but only in the evening so I guess my fulltime job saved my ass here. I simply don't have the time for more than 4 or 5 beers.
It's the GHB thing that worries me in your case. I would definitely NOT taper too many things at once. If you need a year, so be it. If you need two.. same goes.

I sincerely hope to log in and find you're doing better tonight!

@ TGD: good advice about the seroquel, I didn't know that..

[Indy]

Damn man, I do NOT envy you.

I think gabapentin or neurontin is supposed to help with that, not sure.

As for seroquel, it gets unfairly criticized because "whoamg it's an antipsychotic!" but it really is a good drug IMO, at least in low doses. In fact low doses seem to be more potent somehow, hard to explain but I wouldn't worry about the seroquel at all.

[Benz]

Best wishes Chops, that shit sounds fucking miserable. No more phenibut man!!! Those euphoric gaba drugs feel wonderful, but you pay to play.

I've never been through gaba agonist w/d's before. Is it mostly just overstimulation and scary cognitive issues, or is there that "need to get out of my skin" restlesness and other aspects of opioid withdrawals also (chills, depression).

Is it a totaly different kimd of misery or are there similarities. I just can't handle opi w/d's anymore.



I don't mean to make light of opiate w/ds, I'm on 'done & gear and know all too well the hell of rattle but anything related to the GABA centre of the brain (benzos, GHB/GBL, phenibut etc) have a withdrawal that is worse is my opinion.
Withdrawing from GHB with nothing but alcohol to mitigate the symptoms, I actually wanted to die, no shit. Full blown psychotic hallucinations, fits & delirium with sky high anxiety & vital signs. The receptors are so slow healing when they're fucked with, so to top that it just goes on and on. The doctors said it was the worst case of drug withdrawal they had seen, like a combination of benzo, heroin & alcohol w/ds.



Benz

[the good doctor]

Damn man, I do NOT envy you.
I think gabapentin or neurontin is supposed to help with that, not sure.
As for seroquel, it gets unfairly criticized because "whoamg it's an antipsychotic!" but it really is a good drug IMO, at least in low doses. In fact low doses seem to be more potent somehow, hard to explain but I wouldn't worry about the seroquel at all.

It's a well-known effect, not dubious, questioned, or by extrapolation (as I did with phenibut, extrapolating from the effects of its more-potent chlorinated brother baclofen) listed even on Rxlist.com/the PI (at least on the Doctor's version) and in a warning on all neuroleptics, that they lower the seizure threshold.

Seroquel doesn't lower it as badly as thioridazine, per se (which is notorious for prolonged QT and seizures) but it still lowers it somewhat dramatically in comparison to other drugs (more than Wellbutrin or Desyrel do). Atypicals don't lower the seizure threshold as much as typicals, but they have a pronounced effect upon it. The phenothiazines* have the most epileptogenic potential of all of the neuroleptics, and Seroquel is damned close to phenothiazine in structure, enough to be considered a substituted analogue.

*NOTE TO CHOPSTIX: PHENERGAN (PROMETHAZINE) IS AN ACTUAL PHENOTHIAZINE (SEE ABOVE) ANALOGUE OF CHLORPROMAZINE, WITH 1/10 AS MUCH NEUROLEPTIC POTENCY, ALTHOUGH MAINLY AN ANTI-HISTAMINE: IT ALSO LOWERS THE SEIZURE THRESHOLD. PHENOTHIAZINES = DECREASED SEIZURE THRESHOLD.

Read the PI for it if in doubt: it occasionally causes seizures, NMS, and is a relatively weak dopamine antagonist. If something can cause a seizure rarely in a healthy person, it has a MUCH increased chance of causing a seizure in a person in GABA agonist withdrawal, as their neuroinhibitory systems are severely compromised thus their seizure thresholds are already severely compromised, and promethazine can, however rarely, lower the seizure threshold far enough in healthy individuals to result in a fit.

I do however note that all of the references reference 150mg and more of Seroquel, and I am fully cognizant of the fact that Seroquel is mainly an anticholinergic anti-histamine in low doses, and doesn't hit serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic receptors that much in low doses, but it still is a risk that should not be taken, as seizures are not to be taken lightly, and anything that has a chance of increasing the chance of one should not be taken, let alone a drug that is known to be an epileptogenic: call a pharmacist and they will agree (if they are half-educated: many pharmacists don't even know fluoroquinolone anti-biotics or Tamiflu are GABA-A negative allosteric modulators - benzos are PAMs - and antagonists, respectively).

This is not anti-neuroleptic alarmism: the drugs have their place, even though I don't agree with many of their off-label uses and view them as unsuited to the tasks, this is pure safety/harm reduction information. Neuroleptics and all analogues (e.g. promethazine) lower the seizure threshold (as do most anti-depressants from S*RIs to piperazines and hydrazines and bupropion to tricylics and tramadol [I do not believe tetracyclics like mirtazepine carry this risk, but I am not certain]), so stay the fuck away from them in benzo withdrawal. Any possible benefit isn't worth increasing the risk of a seizure, an A&E visit (and bill), and the risk of permanent brain damage.


I don't mean to make light of opiate w/ds...

You don't have to make light of opioid withdrawals. Benzo withdrawals will do it for you, as they speak for themselves. I'd rather kick a ten year five gramme a day fire diesel pure heroin habit cold-turkey than to kick 6mg of Klonopin reducing at the rate of 1mg/month.

Opioid withdrawal actually is the "man up and take it" flu-like syndrome described by mass media presentations of heroin withdrawal compared to even moderate, let alone severe, benzo withdrawal.

Imagine withdrawing from heroin cold-turkey while having a bad trip on 250 mics of acid that lasts for days on end, peaks coming and going, and a horrible coke comedown from a 3-day half-ounce binge lasting throughout it all, after you've rolled on E once a day for those three days and have the compounded E comedowns to contend with as well, and multiply that by two, extend the duration to 30+ days without real sleep, throw in an overdose of speed for good measure, realise that you're in a situation that can be fatal, and acknowledge the fact that no medication other than benzos will help you that much, and you have a slight idea of what severe benzo withdrawal is like.

If I didn't have a script for more than enough, with enough saved up to get me through a month of winter storms/inability to drive or get a cab on the road, I would keep a #4 loaded and the hammer cocked in a breakaction shotgun at all times. At that, if I couldn't get to the pharmacy and ran out (e.g. L3 snow emergency, only emergency vehicles allowed on the road), I would be completely justified in calling 999 to get an ambulance to take me to the hospital so I could get my dose there.

[OrangeLude]

chops...all I have here is a candle, a prayer, my best wishes that you feel better and 'heal' at a pace that is comfortable as possible....
much love from Metro Area NYC.

[Import]

Yeah, as I said above I don't think I'm cut out for gaba agonist abuse. Fuck, I don't even like them very much.

Opioid w/d's are NOTHING like the flu for me except for the chills, puking, and shitting. But yeah, I see what you're saying. I've been kinda sensitive to withdrawal recently, and I have no idea why.

[Dolofinell]

Chopstix, I've never been around GHB and don't drink but have been through many, many, very high dose xanax/valium W/D's due to no self control and running out of script early. Not much advice, just the best of luck to you and hope you feel better very soon.

[upstate_007]

I would definitely NOT taper too many things at once. If you need a year, so be it. If you need two.. same goes.


Good advice from a smart gal. Take it as slow as you need to Chops. And I am hoping it goes as painless as it can for you.

[Larry]

When I had my seizure from xanax, One thing I do remember is that, the Seizure didnt just happen 1 or 2 days after I ran out, I believe it was on like the 4th or 5th day

[hovadagod]

Chops: passion flower also helps seizure threshold.

[Poppylvr]

Oh chops, I am sorry to read all this. I'm sorry you are so miserable. PLEASEbe careful, go down slowly on one thig at a time if you can. I just recently weaned myself off a tiny clonazepam problem and that was hairy. And it was tiny in comparison to what you're going through - but it gave me a taste of something I don't want to experience again.
Good luck sweetie, Granny hugs, and please be careful.

[Benz]

It's a well-known effect, not dubious, questioned, or by extrapolation (as I did with phenibut, extrapolating from the effects of its more-potent chlorinated brother baclofen) listed even on Rxlist.com/the PI (at least on the Doctor's version) and in a warning on all neuroleptics, that they lower the seizure threshold.
Seroquel doesn't lower it as badly as thioridazine, per se (which is notorious for prolonged QT and seizures) but it still lowers it somewhat dramatically in comparison to other drugs (more than Wellbutrin or Desyrel do). Atypicals don't lower the seizure threshold as much as typicals, but they have a pronounced effect upon it. The phenothiazines* have the most epileptogenic potential of all of the neuroleptics, and Seroquel is damned close to phenothiazine in structure, enough to be considered a substituted analogue.
*NOTE TO CHOPSTIX: PHENERGAN (PROMETHAZINE) IS AN ACTUAL PHENOTHIAZINE (SEE ABOVE) ANALOGUE OF CHLORPROMAZINE, WITH 1/10 AS MUCH NEUROLEPTIC POTENCY, ALTHOUGH MAINLY AN ANTI-HISTAMINE: IT ALSO LOWERS THE SEIZURE THRESHOLD. PHENOTHIAZINES = DECREASED SEIZURE THRESHOLD.
Read the PI for it if in doubt: it occasionally causes seizures, NMS, and is a relatively weak dopamine antagonist. If something can cause a seizure rarely in a healthy person, it has a MUCH increased chance of causing a seizure in a person in GABA agonist withdrawal, as their neuroinhibitory systems are severely compromised thus their seizure thresholds are already severely compromised, and promethazine can, however rarely, lower the seizure threshold far enough in healthy individuals to result in a fit.
I do however note that all of the references reference 150mg and more of Seroquel, and I am fully cognizant of the fact that Seroquel is mainly an anticholinergic anti-histamine in low doses, and doesn't hit serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic receptors that much in low doses, but it still is a risk that should not be taken, as seizures are not to be taken lightly, and anything that has a chance of increasing the chance of one should not be taken, let alone a drug that is known to be an epileptogenic: call a pharmacist and they will agree (if they are half-educated: many pharmacists don't even know fluoroquinolone anti-biotics or Tamiflu are GABA-A negative allosteric modulators - benzos are PAMs - and antagonists, respectively).
This is not anti-neuroleptic alarmism: the drugs have their place, even though I don't agree with many of their off-label uses and view them as unsuited to the tasks, this is pure safety/harm reduction information. Neuroleptics and all analogues (e.g. promethazine) lower the seizure threshold (as do most anti-depressants from S*RIs to piperazines and hydrazines and bupropion to tricylics and tramadol [I do not believe tetracyclics like mirtazepine carry this risk, but I am not certain]), so stay the fuck away from them in benzo withdrawal. Any possible benefit isn't worth increasing the risk of a seizure, an A&E visit (and bill), and the risk of permanent brain damage.
You don't have to make light of opioid withdrawals. Benzo withdrawals will do it for you, as they speak for themselves. I'd rather kick a ten year five gramme a day fire diesel pure heroin habit cold-turkey than to kick 6mg of Klonopin reducing at the rate of 1mg/month.
Opioid withdrawal actually is the "man up and take it" flu-like syndrome described by mass media presentations of heroin withdrawal compared to even moderate, let alone severe, benzo withdrawal.
Imagine withdrawing from heroin cold-turkey while having a bad trip on 250 mics of acid that lasts for days on end, peaks coming and going, and a horrible coke comedown from a 3-day half-ounce binge lasting throughout it all, after you've rolled on E once a day for those three days and have the compounded E comedowns to contend with as well, and multiply that by two, extend the duration to 30+ days without real sleep, throw in an overdose of speed for good measure, realise that you're in a situation that can be fatal, and acknowledge the fact that no medication other than benzos will help you that much, and you have a slight idea of what severe benzo withdrawal is like.
If I didn't have a script for more than enough, with enough saved up to get me through a month of winter storms/inability to drive or get a cab on the road, I would keep a #4 loaded and the hammer cocked in a breakaction shotgun at all times. At that, if I couldn't get to the pharmacy and ran out (e.g. L3 snow emergency, only emergency vehicles allowed on the road), I would be completely justified in calling 999 to get an ambulance to take me to the hospital so I could get my dose there.



I, too have thought, almost to the degree you have, about the logistics surrounding making sure I have an adequate supply & the possibilities of not getting benzos.
The only other drug I was as vigilant about being in possesion of was GHB. Because I knew the consequences.
I have never devoted the same dilligence to opiates. Not to minimise the lengths I have gone to to acquire them.
There's a big difference between NEEDING a drug to stop you from having a potentially fatal seizure and WANTING a drug badly, because you don't want to go into rattle and/or have a strong desire to feel the effects.



Benz

[Woody Bear]

I wish my doc would back up on the dose, but she won't, and she doesn't know about the ativan and alcohol - the last time I got sick was about 10 days after a 1mg valium cut and a .5mg ativan cut - TOO much, way too much. My valium taper is slow (1mg/mo), but it still fux me up for a couple weeks.. 11mg now and probably a year to go on this shit. Fucking sucks, bad.. Skullcap and GABA help modulate, but it all still SUX.
If your benzo or alcohol dependant, valium really is the best drug to try to withdrawal on, so you don't want to get that cut any further. The best option if your doctor won't increase the dose, is tell her that you want to cut down on your drinking, but finding it too hard, so you'd like to keep on the same valium dose for a couple of months until you're able to cut it out.

Alternatively if you don't want to tell her about the drinking, complain about anxiety and how you want to keep on the same valium dose for awhile, and you'll tell her when you want to resume the valium taper when you feel ready.

Also the problem with the drinking, is that it affects GABA also, and many people find that when they cut out benzo's they increase their drinking. So it would be best if you could taper out the drinking before you finish the benzo taper.

And tapering off ativan is going to be far, far more difficult than tapering off valium. So you're probably best off, tapering off the ativan first, and using alcohol to cope when it gets rough. Then after coming off the ativan then taper down on the alcohol. Once you've stopped drinking completely, then you'd be ready to finally taper off the diazepam.

[degausser]

I've also been having this brain "skipping" thing - it's very hard to describe, curious as to if anyone aside from me and SJ have experienced this; I'm also losing pieces of time - coinciding with the hallucinations and with short periods of what sometimes feels like I'm falling asleep (and also with the hallucinations), but when I sleep I wake up feeling like I could be close to seizing and it's not really sleep, this has BEEN really fucking scary.

I've been having a hard time reading and typing, this is the best I've felt for awhile, NO more phenibut, it seems to be wearing off and I think the rebound from it (coinciding with the benzo and alky tapering) has caused a lot of this - it's probably fine if you're not GABA agonist dependent, but if u are u may want to avoid it, or at least multi gram doses, I do think that it caused a lot of this, but this has been fucked, the only reason I haven't gone to the hospital is because I don't want a bunch of drug shit on my record, and the one that's close has been treating me for the car wreck I was in and I don't want those records crossed.. But, these, both auditory and visual hallucinations have been scary, along with the "brain skips" and rapid onset "oh shit here it comes" feelings of possible seizure onset have been SCARY, I keep nodding off and then wake up feeling like "here comes the seizure" is scaring me shitless; I'm feeling better over the last few hours, LOTS of valium and some hydrocodone seem to be helping; I'll post back after I get some sleep that I think is finally coming, but this REALLY fucking sucks..

Chops,

I have experience the near-seizing and the brain skipping/ticks/whatever from alcohol detox.
My last full-on booze detox I lays in bed for two days straight, confused thoughts, full on anxiety, brain-jolts, memory loss, etc. The memory loss was really scary because it would happen mid-thought. I would be thinking about one thing, and then ZAP that thought is completely gone.

The mixture of alcohol withdrawal and the combination of buprenorphine and high quantities of alcohol days prior really did a number on me. I thought I was going insane. Luckily I returned to a (mostly) normal state of mind after a few days. The one weird thing that stuck with me for weeks was the eye ticks (twitching,) and also the disturbed sleep where I would momentarily blackout and feel as if my body were falling.
P.s. I am heavily entrenched in work, so I apologize if my writing seems rushed and/or not applicable to your case.

I hope that all is well. Shit like this can be really scary.

[SuperJunky]

Chops: passion flower also helps seizure threshold.

Passion flower is a god send, I go through a 2oz. bottle in a few days, Very good stuff in my opinion.

[chopstix]

On my way out to get some passionflower and a few other herbs as soon as the GABA kicks in and my hands stop shaking..

I talked to Thanat0s awhile ago and he said some of the symptoms sounded like petite mal seizures, so I looked it up and he's right - I think that's what the "skipping" and lapses in time were, petite mal seizures.. Fortunately they're not thought to be harmful, but I don't know if that makes me more prone now..

Fucked up shit. Don't do this..

[Thanat0s]

On my way out to get some passionflower and a few other herbs as soon as the GABA kicks in and my hands stop shaking..

I talked to Thanat0s awhile ago and he said some of the symptoms sounded like petite mal seizures, so I looked it up and he's right - I think that's what the "skipping" and lapses in time were, petite mal seizures.. Fortunately they're not thought to be harmful, but I don't know if that makes me more prone now..

Fucked up shit. Don't do this..
yes, you are likely more prone to more petite and full grand mals now.

XTREME caution, please.

you got friends in this world that dont like the thought of you being incapacitated permanently,
much less a babbling drooling veg...
ive know a couple people completely lose themselves following severe seizures and a stroke.

benzo w/d kinda plays for keeps,
careful attention,
any doubt get to a hospital.

i dunno what yer options are,
but with YOUR benzo/booze habit, id consider an inpatient detox for the last bit,
could mean the diff between having the rest of your life, and having none to speak of.

if it takes 90 fucking days to make the last big jump,
at least you will make it to the other side with yer sack of marbles...

also:
does weed help this shit at all?

[chopstix]

Weed does help, it helps me drink less, and co-incidentally, I just found the bag I'd lost two weeks ago..

Thanks for the infos on petite mal, guess I needed to know that..

[Import]

Just out of curiosity, how well does booze work to mitigate benzo, ghb/bl, and phenibut withdrawal? It really surprised me when Benz said his ghb kick was still miserable even with booze thrown in to help. I figured since etoh is also a gaba agonist that it should relieve other agonist withdrawals (kinda like using morphine to help with methadone w/d, for instance).

[chopstix]

Booze helps modulate, no question, and it also potentiates the gaba drugs. It seems to help moreso with benzos (agonizes both a and b, but I think the bias is towards gaba-a) which are gaba-a agonists. Baclofen, phenibut, GHB/GBL/1,4BDL are all gaba-b agonists (and there are many more) and there is a distinct difference in "feel" with the gaba-bs. The GABA-B agonists kick ass for sleep (and other things), but the symptoms of withdrawal tend to be reported as much worse than benzo wd, as bad as it is..

[Count Zero]

God, I don't know if I could survive benzo withdrawal then. The restless legs and arms/hands are the most agonizing part for me. Not being able to sleep for days, being so incredibly exhausted, and STILL not able to sleep because my legs and arms feel so awful.

Restless limbs don't sound too bad from simple description, but that aspect has brought me close to suicide many times. Combine it with all the other horrors of withdrawal and I really do start to go insane after a few days. Gaba agonist withdrawal sounds like my worst fucking nightmare.

I hope you're doing OK Chops. This shit just sounds so scary.

I had a recent experiece where I had to go five days without my methadone. After day four I was planning on killing myself because of the agony. The ONLY reason I am still alive is that I knew I would be getting better soon. If it wasn't for loperamide, I would have killed myself quite a while ago during some kick or another. I'm very sensitive to withdrawals nowadays. Not one day goes by now that I don't regret being on methadone. I just want to be free of this shit, I can't handle withdrawal anymore!

Sorry for the babble, withdrawal has been on my mind a lot recently. I'm only 24...I can't even imagine how bad the withdrawals will get if I keep using for another ten years. I really don't know how you older junkies do it.

Haha I'm reallynnot trying to make this about me. I just couldn't resist getting this shit off my chest.

THe way this "older junkie" does it is I do not ever fuck with benzos ever, they suck, they are horrible and nothing good can come of them-and I was never addicted, just a couple of ODs and large zoo animals in the bedroom pulling up the plants.
I haven't done heroin in years (though I miss it and would love a blast right now) and I do reefer and white wine all fucking night, mixed in with the occasional slightly dirty Ketel One martini and some pods. If you don't want your drugs to poison you, you have to be a bit careful not to let them. Of course, I poison myself everyday but there are differences of degree, I feel like shit some of the time but I am not undergoing seizures.
Re: Chops OP, hang in there bro and take care, I was thinking about ordering some phenibut but I'll prolly give it a miss now from what you and BTK have posted, thanks. You will make it through but you have to be careful.

[Flowergirl]

I'm glad you've got some insight here. I think, sometimes, really smart people use their intelligence to their own detriment usually without even realizing it, and I see you doing that. Not just here... You're too smrt fer yer own good sometimes! So dumb down and behave, or I will beat your cute ass! <3

[chopstix]

Lots better.. It had to be the phenibut, again. I od'd on the shit a few weeks ago too, no more..

Holyfuckingshit - that's a wd I never wanna see again.. That was seriously scary shit, these hallucinations weren't fun.. Don't try this at home kids.

[paups]

I'm glad you've got some insight here. I think, sometimes, really smart people use their intelligence to their own detriment usually without even realizing it, and I see you doing that. Not just here... You're too smrt fer yer own good sometimes! So dumb down and behave, or I will beat your cute ass! <3

I know, agree and often sadly those that are most self-aware often take drugs only to self-medicate..not just "get high" and escape etc.. (since there is no "cure" for philosophical/cultural inflammation of the ego, id, and body)

Chops is unfortunately prob a Dr.s nightmare no? I felt like the second I said "benzodiazepine" to mine she was like erm...

Ive been thinking about going to a Chinese Dr.. I know you can get consults for very cheap..like $25-50 in NYC and they will prescribe you eastern medicines (often a nasty herbal infusion and acupuncture) BUT I am TOTALLY willing to give this stuff a try.. speaking of that have you explored this Chops? I know there are prob a lot of resources for eastern meds in your area.. better than MA for sure..

[The_Chef]

Don't try this at home kids.

No fucking shit. For all we (myself included in this) bitch and moan about the miseries of opiate withdrawal, they don't have shit on benzos, alcohol and the rest of that GABA-effecting bunch. That there's some serious shit right there. I've seen the effects of it first hand and lord knows, the way I've been hitting the bottle since I quit dope I'll be facing it somewhere down the line, but for all you n00bs out there, this is the worst of the worst and don't you fucking forget it as you go through your daily routine.

[Thanat0s]

funny thing paups,
me an chops were just discussing herbals
in relation to your issues with the existential angst.


maybe a comprehensive thread on the topic would be helpful?

[chopstix]

I know, agree and often sadly those that are most self-aware often take drugs only to self-medicate..not just "get high" and escape etc.. (since there is no &quot;cure&quot; for philosophical/cultural inflammation of the ego, id, and body)

Chops is unfortunately prob a Dr.s nightmare no? I felt like the second I said &quot;benzodiazepine&quot; to mine she was like erm...

Ive been thinking about going to a Chinese Dr.. I know you can get consults for very cheap..like $25-50 in NYC and they will prescribe you eastern medicines (often a nasty herbal infusion and acupuncture) BUT I am TOTALLY willing to give this stuff a try.. speaking of that have you explored this Chops? I know there are prob a lot of resources for eastern meds in your area.. better than MA for sure..

Doctors hate me - my current doc and I have a good rapport, but she's told me she's not very comfortable with my knowledge of drugs, and I've dealt with a $400/hr board certified sleep specialist that know less about benzos than I do; I've only met two docs that understand the proper way to wd from benzos (the one I'm using now I had to explain it to), one works at one of the best sleep centers in the nation and the other was also 400/hr and an addiction specialist and psychiatrist. It's very hard for me to find docs that'll help me with this.. Another reason I hesitated the hospital, I don't want some quack taking control..

I know a couple people that use chinese medicine and swear by it. I haven't tried much of it, but I'm open to it. I've started using some herbs to help deal with this, and I'd thought last night about starting a thread - good idea Than..

[nikita70]

auntie was a benzo freak when uk doctors dished em out like candy, gave up before they knew about tapering etc, she will not take ANYTHING now, not even fuckin aspirin, had full on hallucinations of spiders on the walls, thought she was going mad

other female relative is tapering now at what seems to be ridiculously slow rate off valium, a mill a week, anything more is too much, ill have to ask my mom cause i think shes the only one of her 4 sisters that hasnt been addicted to benzos, add some female cousins in to the mix too

sorry i cant help personally chops except by sending good wishes

..."Mother's little helper", right? Interresting, seems it's the female thing...;)
My mom has a benzo-habit since over 25 years, I believe, before I even heard about "addiction" and touched my first pill.
Looks it runs by the family.

She started her "range" on Valium, but she was uncomfortable for some "secret" reason (as I said, I don't know about whole that "subtle" details of addiction for these times), then she tasting a lot of different kind, to "fetch up" on Lorafen(lorazepam) at last/lastly. She tried to taper or give up hundreds times, of course not to avail/in vein, before she even realized she has had a serious problem. I remember she telling me the horror-story about how she once found herself in hospital unexpectable... The doctor "in charge" was the biggest enemy of addiction in any kind, I ever seen...
...you know, the type of the oldschooly army-doctor(he was a leautenant, as far I remember) ready rather to die and let you die, than give you any relief. According to him, CT detox is not just the most proper and effective way to treat the addicts, but the only one available/possible.

After about 24hours of being completely denied of benzos, my mom called desperately her "secret suplier"-the "house doctor", asking secretly bring her some pills under the pretext take the visit to the hospital. I felt really nasty listening to that story. My mom made me frightened to death, because as an user I realized, how much involved she must be. It sounds like a typical average junkies' tale and it was really awfull to me. My mom, poor thing, she even canot find the proper words to describe what she went through. She just told, she had an impression she's nearly dying, because of some heart diseases, irregular, high blood preasure what makes her head nearly exploding and horrible panic attacks.

And what I personally experienced was the "voices"(I don't know, how it calls professional in English) what once made me literally run away from the train I back home from the detox I went through in the strange city... I was completely exhausted after two weeks of keeping myself out of junk---however, instead of, they "uploaded" us-patients by the huge doses of benzos...Just two weeks, but looks it was enough "the world outside change and people turn into spys, licenced killers etc.";). I think it must be rather the rebound effect; "the benzos-episode" needs a "little bit" more time to cause the real w/d---unless the first decent shot wouldn't made the paranoia blown away so easy and I wouldn't getting quite "stable" and relaxed again relatively quickly. However, I'd prefer not to imagine how it looks in its "complete/full version", so to said.

I'm really sorry about you, man. I wish I have some effective "receipe"; I'm personally interrested in, but I'm afraid benzos-w/d is a very complicated game, which needs some more "subtle knowledge" and intuition than average "opiate affair", if you know, what I mean. It's the...highest level of the game...
All the best to you...

[gameface]

Bro If you can get a hold of some Lyrica which works with Gaba I would think it would help
+14 FTW, perhaps neurontin (sp) too?

[Papa Verine]

Good timing for me.

I've been without a benzo (or any GABA agonists) habit for about 4 months now. I know exactly what you're going through Chopstix. They're the WORST drug withdrawal effects by far. I keep thinking about getting some Valiums or one of the many Phenibut products around here, and I'm deathly afraid of how it might turn out if I do get some. It's fuckin Hell... seizures or no seizures, a great miserable fuckin thing to have to kick!

Did I mention how much I hate benzo withdrawals?

I'm regularly going to work sick from my opiate addiction, and yeah... it sucks. It sucks bad. But somehow I do it. I can tough out some opiate withdrawals. Fuck benzos... and all the rest. I'm going to leave my GABA receptors the fuck alone.

Good luck to you man. I hope you can avoid this shit in the future... like I'm trying to do. God help us all if we can't put shit like this down.

I'm getting the fuckin creeps just thinking about what you're going through...

[borohydride]

I would imagine the best medication would be phenobarbitone. It's certainly not fun, it lasts for ages, but it isn't cross-tolerant with benzos, it calms, stops seizures & reduces alcohol cravings.

Of course, it's a barbiturate & that's one addiction you don't want! Clomethiazole is another option (especially for alcohol) but never more than 12 days of either. Clomethiazole seems legal everywhere.

[chopstix]

Valium taper FTW - I'm taking Ashton's 50 years of experience and advice..

I'm off the ativan and drinking a lot less, it's progress.........................................

My fucking doctor cut me off - BITCH, I'm pissed.. Thank the fucking Gods for the internet.

[Chipper]

Valium taper FTW - I'm taking Ashton's 50 years of experience and advice..

I'm off the ativan and drinking a lot less, it's progress...<snip>

Excellent. I know it drags on but it has to be done. Just giving you some moral support.