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KyleHyde
07-13-2010, 03:33 PM
I just got scripted 15mg MSIR (morhpine sulfate), which is a switch from 10mg Norco that I was scripted before. I was excited until I came here and read that morphine has such poor bio-availability. I've read that morphine and norco when taken orally about equal each other in strength.

Before I was taking 30-40mg norco to feel groovy, but 45mg of the morphine feels different and not as strong. Is this the common experience with most people? Is this due to morphine's low bio-availability? Are different routes of administration more pleasant with morphine (not IV though) like nasal or plugging?

FiendMan
07-13-2010, 03:42 PM
i've been having discussions w/ several people regarding the poor bioavailibilty of morphine. see the thread "Poor Man's High" they have recommended that i plug morphine b/c the BA is MUCH higher than oral (i'm afraid of the needle as well). the vast majority of folks on here (from what i read) prefer plugging morhine if you are not an IV user.

if you use the search engine, you will find step-by-step instruction on how to plug MS Contin. also, i believe that there are other threads out there regarding pluggin in gerneral. i've never been much of a plugger, but the next time i get my kadians they are going strait up my ass. i will let you know how that works, but if these super intelligent members say that's the way to go, i trust their opinion b/c these folks really know their shit.

also, if you are a daily user of opiates you are prolly a little constipated. from what i know, you should take a laxitive or an enima prior to plugging to clean your colon before plugging or your shit will absorb your precious drugs. hope this helps a little.

hovadagod
07-13-2010, 03:54 PM
I find hydrocodone (norco) stronger than oral morph.

JonnyM
07-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Orally the BA or morphine is about 15% while plugging I believe is something like 60-70%.


As you can see you will get 4 times as much morphine if you plug it.


If you aren't scared (or don't mind using them) of needles you can always inject it which is a LOT higher BA.


edit: by the way Norco (hydrocodone) has an extremely high oral BA, I have heard of it being around 80%

the good doctor
07-13-2010, 08:33 PM
Intranasal morphine is even lower than oral. Morphine has ~25% BA PO, and ~15% BA intranasal. Intrarectal is not nearly as high as everyone is claiming. It may be around 40%, 50% at the outside - 1.5 to 2 times as effective - which would put it in the same league as your previous Norco. Every one milligramme injected is equal to ~2.5mg intrarectal, 4 milligrammes eaten or 6.75 milligrammes sniffed, purely from a pain-relief standpoint (the ratios are much shittier than that to get high on oral morphine, and you'll overdose before you get a hydrocodone/oxycodone high out of it).

As far as getting high goes, morphine is absolutely worthless unless you inject. It's as worthless than Dilaudid when necked. However, Dilaudid at least has the benefit of being one-quarter decent when sniffed. However, it is a good painkiller; just don't expect to be getting buzzed from your dose any more. Morphine-derivative opioids - yes, all phenanthrene opioids are morphine-derivative, but I am speaking of codeine, morphine, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, buprenorphine, etorphine, etc. - have a terrible oral bioavailability and an accordingly dismally low abuse potential when used by any route other than IV (or, in some rare cases if one's tolerance is small, intranasal or sublingual, except for morphine itself, which you are not going to be getting high on unless you inject).

Opioids aren't like benzodiazepines, where every drug has essentially the same effects, differentiated only by potency and duration. The highs the two drugs give are completely different. To draw a weed comparison, pure sativa is oxycodone/hydrocodone, and pure indica is morphine. And, just as with weed, many people can't stand pure sativa but like indica, many sativa smokers don't like indica, and some smoke whatever is to hand. They're almost like two different classes of drugs: you'll fall out dead before you get anything approaching a *codone buzz from morphine. It's not going to happen. It's like trying to squeeze a heroin high out of fentanil, or a morphine high out of tramadol.

They're all cross-tolerant to a degree, and all will keep you well, in varying dosages, but they have a very wide range of abuse potentials and effects: if you like one doesn't mean you'll like them all. Each one also has a vastly preferred ROA. Oral for the *codones and methadone, IV for morphine, diamorphine, hydromorphone, oxymorphone.

This may be a great blessing in disguise for you. Your tolerance is still tiny to the point of not really having a habit - you're only a few months in to starting recreational use with a tolerance that low - and every junky here wishes they could be at the point you are now, able to kick without a problem, and maybe leave the dope behind them for good without it leaving a ghost to haunt the house. If you don't like morphine, let it steer you off the one-way road called Opioid Lane before you turn on to it fully. Once you're on it, there are only two off-ramps - one to methadone and one to Suboxone, each with a thousand off-ramps back on to the main road - and one roundabout that drops you right back where you started, sobriety. You'll learn that the road is poorly paved and not nearly as smooth as it looks - "Once you know you can never go back" - and you'll take a ride on the sobriety roundabout a time or two, and realize it's even more poorly paved than Opioid Lane, just cut of a different stone, and then you'll be a lifer - you don't want to be a lifer - struggling with getting on methadone and/or Suboxone, losing most or all you have, going off maintenance, going on runs, getting back on maintenance, so on and so forth, your life running in a comedic vicious circle. And one day in the future, you will tell someone who is in your position, as I am telling you now, "Don't turn down Opioid Lane. Once you know, you can never go back, and you don't want to be a lifer."

Bottom line: morphine isn't going to get you "high," full stop, the way that the *codones do - or much at all for that matter - unless you inject. Alas, the effects of morphine are much different compared to the *codones: many new junkies (introduced to opioids in the era of OxyContin) who cut their teeth on *codones don't like morphine, even IV. It will keep you well, and it will help relieve your pain, but that's it. The same goes with the "old guard" of people who cut their teeth on dope: morphine is good, but many don't like the *codones. If you intend on necking your pills, you want to be getting back on hydrocodone or oxycodone. "Say goodbye to the high" if you stay on morphine. The doctor may have switched you because of that alone if you came up short on a pill-count, etc.

EDIT: Hydrocodone has an oral bioavailability ~90%, as does oxycodone, which is part of the reason they're the best opioids for PO use (they're the only opioids that have anything approaching a "kick" or a "rush" PO), and why injecting them isn't much more effective than eating. IM has ~BA to PO. Both hydrocodone and oxycodone have a BA of ~60% when sniffed: for every 2mg of hydroxycodone eaten, 3mg must be sniffed to achieve the same effect.

IV BA is always 100%, no matter the drug: it is what the entire notion of "bioavailability" is based on.

HandMeSomeOpiates
07-13-2010, 08:38 PM
If I were you and a doc tried switching me from Norco to 15mg morphine, I would immediately decline! But, I am a hydrocodone lover. It gives me more euphoria than any other opiate(although I've never tried Opana, which I hear is the best of the best). The day they make a pure 50mg+ hydrocodone tablet, will be a great day.....or bad one, depends on how you look at it ;)

dharma bum
07-13-2010, 08:43 PM
Orally the BA or morphine is about 15% while plugging I believe is something like 60-70%.


As you can see you will get 4 times as much morphine if you plug it.


If you aren't scared (or don't mind using them) of needles you can always inject it which is a LOT higher BA.


edit: by the way Norco (hydrocodone) has an extremely high oral BA, I have heard of it being around 80%

Are these figures the same with the instant release morphine? I always hated morphine too but i got hold of some 30 mg ir morphine. Said Ethex and they were tan in color throughout the entire pill. I busted up 3 and snorted them and they rocked my world. And I had a descent habit at the time on oxy. Interesting.

oxy kid
07-13-2010, 08:46 PM
If I were you and a doc tried switching me from Norco to 15mg morphine, I would immediately decline! But, I am a hydrocodone lover. It gives me more euphoria than any other opiate(although I've never tried Opana, which I hear is the best of the best). The day they make a pure 50mg+ hydrocodone tablet, will be a great day.....or bad one, depends on how you look at it ;)

Before I got the point of needing more than just a few Hydro 10s, Hydrocodone was by far my favorite opiate. I remember the days when I could be high as can be all day from a measly 2-4 Hydrocodone 10s. Any if we ever happen to run across some perk 5's or 10s, wow, it was a great week! Those were the days, not HAVING to get high all the time, or at least attempt to get high, just to stay well.

But the moral of the story is, if you are still ok taking Hydrocodone and still catching a great buzz from it, stick with it. And don't make the same mistake way too many have on here and continue to take them daily until your tolerance goes up from 2-3, then to 5-6, then to 15-20. It happens easily and quickly.

JonnyM
07-13-2010, 08:46 PM
Bottom line: morphine isn't going to get you "high," full stop, the way that the *codones do - or much at all for that matter - unless you inject. Alas, the effects of morphine are much different compared to the *codones: many new junkies (introduced to opioids in the era of OxyContin) who cut their teeth on *codones don't like morphine, even IV. It will keep you well, and it will help relieve your pain, but that's it. The same goes with the "old guard" of people who cut their teeth on dope: morphine is good, but many don't like the *codones. If you intend on necking your pills, you want to be getting back on hydrocodone or oxycodone. "Say goodbye to the high" if you stay on morphine. The doctor may have switched you because of that alone if you came up short on a pill-count, etc.


I have to disagree, I think morphine gives an excellent high even when it isn't injected, albeit at a higher dose.

Also all the medical studies I can find say rectal morphine usually has a BA of around 61%.


Either way as long as he has the morphine, rectal administration is right now his best bet.

the good doctor
07-13-2010, 09:06 PM
I have to disagree, I think morphine gives an excellent high even when it isn't injected, albeit at a higher dose.

Also all the medical studies I can find say rectal morphine usually has a BA of around 61%.


Either way as long as he has the morphine, rectal administration is right now his best bet.

IV is by far his best bet, but if he's not comfortable with needles, or doesn't want to walk down needle road, one must make due with what one has, and, since intrarectal administration has, ceteris paribus (e.g. no constipation), the highest bioavailability of any method not involving a hypodermic syringe, yes, intrarectal would be the best, if he can't sell or trade them for a *codone.

Oh, I think morphine gives an excellent high, too. I don't like hydrocodone or oxycodone. Dope is where it's at for opioids, and morphine is where it's at for pharmaceuticals (and the odd Dilaudid). However, the highs are completely different, so someone who is used to the speedy, heady high of hydrocodone or oxycodone and interprets that as "euphoria" may not like the heavy sedation that comes with morphine, and may (and is likely to) find it completely non-euphoric if one has not done it before. Many people feel this way towards methadone, because it is so overpoweringly sedating: that's what, before I got on maintenance, made it my favorite PO opioid. The nod is the euphoria for me; for other people, it can be different aspects of the high. I've heard of people on here who didn't even like the nod: I can't believe it when I read such a thing. I think, "Why the fuck would you use dope if you don't want to nod?" - it's what attracted me to it. A session that doesn't end with me nodding quickly is a session completely wasted to me.

It seems whatever opioid one "fell in love with" originally seems to always be the favorite (drug of choice); others are used in times of desperation (e.g. the only time I would use fentanil: I hate it. I'd rather be on Suboxone than fentanil; the only opioid I dislike as much as fentanil is tramadol) or are acquired tastes.

harmonik
07-13-2010, 09:23 PM
PPT is great, I think I wouldn't like it if morphine weren't involved... codeine does jack shit for me, as an opioid naive individual I have had 18oz of the purple codeine syrup (not sure mg, I never touched it again... this was 3 years ago) and felt nothing. I wonder if I'm one of the few people who can't metabolize codeine? either way, ppt is great.

Morphine IV is probably one of my favorite things. It feels so good it almost hurts... I can't help but double over in ecstasy.

doctor diesel
07-14-2010, 09:54 AM
What is PPT?


Doc

MINUTES LATER... :D

What is PPT?



Doc

SeVeN
07-14-2010, 10:00 AM
What is PPT?


Doc

Poppy Pod Tea. Duh!

I was going to reply twice since you posted twice but Ive had my fun Doc.

Restharrow
07-14-2010, 10:01 AM
I took Morphine for 6 years after taking Hydro and Oxy for 5 years.

IMO it is not just poorly absorbed, but it lacks the euphoria of Hydro and Oxy.

It was a very good pain reliever, but not as euphoric. If you want both euphoria and top notch pain relief, time release morphine with Hydro or Oxy as breakthru meds worked great for me.

People who have injected Morphine usually disagree with me. My first experience with Morphine was at the hospital via IV and I was suprised at lack of euphoria, but blamed it on enviornment.

Will

NoEggsForFats?
07-14-2010, 10:14 AM
I was wondering the same thing. But one thing's for certain,

PPT is great.

EDIT: Ah... a bunch jumped in at the same time to answer the doc.

Pod Tea.

SeVeN
07-14-2010, 10:40 AM
I was wondering the same thing. But one thing's for certain,

PPT is great.

EDIT: Ah... a bunch jumped in at the same time to answer the doc.

Pod Tea.


Thats right and I was NUMBER 1 baby!!

KyleHyde
07-14-2010, 08:50 PM
Interesting and also quite disappointing. Thanks for the input everyone. I'm curious as to why my doctor switched me from norco to morphine. It was my first visit with the pain management doctor after being referred there from my back doctor. I told them the norco 10mg was no longer helping enough with the pain, and the pm doctor told me the morphine 15mg was slightly stronger. I didn't have a shortage of pills or anything and I don't think I failed the drug test.

So a question. What side effects does morphine more frequently cause that oxycodone doesn't, i.e. which side effects cause doctors to switch patients from morphine to a different one like oxycodone? Does morphine cause more nasuea, constipation, or tiredness than oxycodone at 15mg doses every 8hrs? Does oxycodone or hydrocodone have better pain killing abilities than morphine?

the good doctor
07-14-2010, 09:08 PM
Constipation, itchiness, oversedation. You might just be able to say, "this doesn't work as much for my pain (implication: and you said it was stronger when I told you the Norco wasn't cutting it) and makes me too tired... this is even less effective than what I was on before (implication: and even that wasn't effective enough)." These is a fine, high Art being practised here.

15mg morphine is equal to 10mg hydrocodone by mouth. Hydrocodone is between 33% and 50% stronger than morphine when taken by mouth. Very few references (e.g. one, and I'm sure pain doctors sniff these out like a bloodhound so they can give you the least amount of narcotic possible without outright lowering your dose) put the equivalency at 1:1. Oxycodone is twice as strong (whereas morphine is 1.5 times as strong as oxycodone when IV'd).

KyleHyde
07-14-2010, 09:22 PM
Thanks doc. As a new patient, do you think the argument sounds better when calling a few days after the visit or when waiting a month for the next appointment?

the good doctor
07-15-2010, 12:38 AM
Calling less than a week after. It's what a person who was legitimately experiencing undesirable side-effects would do. Don't demand - or even ask - for a new medicine over the phone. Tell the doctor what you've worked out about why you don't like the morphine and it doesn't work for you, and ask him what to do.

Part of the trick with many doctors is convincing them that your idea was actually there idea: letting them engage in their own thought-process, but only leaving as possible results those results that are desirable to you. I learned this partially through school (psychology), partially through examining the social interactions and social capital power structures of human beings through the closest I could come to the scientific method, and mostly through being sick, unable to score, and not living in Florida with the "OxyContin Express."

It's funny how the symptoms of opioid withdrawal mimic almost identically the symptoms of severe pain, so if one goes to the emergency room/urgent care in withdrawal and claims to be in pain, and they test for the physiological signs of it, they're all there - hypercapnia, tachycardia, hypertension, mydriasis, sweating, shaking, etc. - one must just control it so it is not obviously drug withdrawal if you're claiming anything less than a bone puncturing the skin or a verifiable kidney stone (back in the day, this was always good for a shot of Dilaudid, now it's not such a sure thing, I think because so many junkies used it - they attempt to verify it with an x-ray even though many renal stones are invisible on one - and is damned expensive), as your pain-source.

Still, if you learn the symptomology of the condition and can successfully perform it (complex regional pain syndrome and fibromyalgia syndrome are the easiest to fake, but most doctors hand out anti-depressants for them, as they should, because they are mental illnesses - conversion disorders - with no physical etiology outside of the brain, unlike, e.g., a bad back), most doctors, if not all, can not tell the difference between that which is consummately acted and legitimately presented. Quite possibly the hardest conditions to act are mental illnesses that garner benzodiazepines - anxiety disorders. Overacting them even slightly, depending on the individual doctor, will gather a different diagnosis and a course of antipsychotic and lithium therapy. Underacting them will get an anti-depressant, as will acting them properly if you don't display exactly the right level of knowledge and ignorance of pharmaceutical drugs that you would have tried (e.g. only brand names for drugs on patent, only chemical names for drugs not on patent, slight mispronunciations, such as "hydroxycodeine worked for my pain after I broke my wrist in the past," or, "chlorazepam worked well when I was in the hospital for my anxiety/sleep, after I tried hydroxyline, something ending in "triptiline" or "triptamine," Zoloft, fluoxetine, etc." and exactly why each of those drugs didn't work, one or two reasons for each class of drugs in general, one exception for a drug in that class from those general reasons, with different reasons for it being intolerable, and one or two specific reasons for each drug).

Even if you're a completely legitimate patient, you'll have to fall back on some variation of this strategy as often as not with a doctor - especially psychiatrists (who assume everything is depression or manic depression - and maybe ADHD - and woe on thee if one doesn't like - alas, love - sexual activity - I learned quickly to lie about that one to the Freudian bastards who ignore everything else and try and put me on bupropion or speed and try to get me to engage in sexual activity before they'll treat anything else, like that is the root of all of your problems, not enough sex.. I beg to differ, too much sexual activity and general intimacy is the root of very many people's myriad problems: "Hello, Dr. Headshrink, I'm a fucking celibate/asexual/whatever you call them nowadays, you idiot motherfuckers used to treat homosexuality like a mental illness, and you still classify me as having a mental illness, where my lack of desire for anything sexual improves my quality of life, reduces stress, reduces strife with other individuals, and allows me more time for, what do you call it, Maslow? self-actualization? Yeah, that's it, constructive activities beyond seeking pussy for no purpose other than an evolutionary desire to further the suffering of the human race... and you say that makes me depressed? Well, tell me, Schopenhauer, how the fuck would you be able to suffer if you'd never been born? Are you telling me you've never suffered? Have you ever had a patient, or known anyone personally, who didn't suffer in their life? What is it the Buddhists say? Alright then, are you telling me you'd know what happiness is if you had never existed? Oh, you're saying, even if you didn't exist, you'd have the capacity to give a fuck one way or another?") - to keep from being prescribed an SSRI, antipsychotic, mirtazepine or trazodone for sleep, and speed, and the odd doctor who prescribes hydroxyzine, tricyclics, or mood stabilizers with a heavy hand, and being told, "This is all we have, I can't do anything more to help you," once you've run through every drug in those classes. The same can be said for pain management, replacing the psychiatric medications - and keeping the SSRIs and TCAs - with toradol and cyclobenzaprine, and possibly tramadol and carisoprodol. And lucky for you in either treatment if you get Lyrica. Pain management seems to do some good if you have something glaringly wrong with you, e.g. you can't pass through an airport medal detector naked, and psychiatry seems to do some good if you're hearing your dog speaking through the television with the voice of God while the cops outside inject thoughts in to your head and suck others out and the television is turned off, but in more moderate cases, they seem to be at a loss - or in some sort of ethical quandary - for what to do.

And some of these doctors prescribe CII speed, that, I swear on my soul, itself alone has turned more kids of the latest generation in to druggies than any single reason for using drugs in any generation before, by the fucking bucketful, and act like CIV benzodiazepines don't exist. The treatment guidelines of the APA themselves state, "The decision between CBT, SS/N/RI or benzodiazepine medication should be made based on the preferences of the patient and response or lack thereof to past treatment modalities."

The sad fact of the matter is, in pain treatment and psychiatry, the patient ofttimes knows his needs of medication as well or better than the doctor, given that he has at least a passable knowledge of the conditions and pharmacotherapy for them, for only he can experience every curve, blade, and plane of his subjective experience, the doctor can only look for clues to the general shape of it.

Alas, I'm ranting. I'm writing like I've smoked too much weed and drank too much beer tonight.

doctor diesel
07-15-2010, 10:15 AM
Wow.


Doc

Illadelph41
07-18-2010, 09:20 PM
If I were you and a doc tried switching me from Norco to 15mg morphine, I would immediately decline! But, I am a hydrocodone lover. It gives me more euphoria than any other opiate(although I've never tried Opana, which I hear is the best of the best). The day they make a pure 50mg+ hydrocodone tablet, will be a great day.....or bad one, depends on how you look at it ;)Yeah....Opana is by far my favorite ATM....Haven't had a chance to really IV many things other than dope and coke, but DEF. wanna try IV *morphone for sure, either should be a rush to blow my mind.

bluedude
08-06-2010, 10:17 AM
Still, if you learn the symptomology of the condition and can successfully perform it (complex regional pain syndrome and fibromyalgia syndrome are the easiest to fake, but most doctors hand out anti-depressants for them, as they should, because they are mental illnesses - conversion disorders - with no physical etiology outside of the brain, unlike, e.g., a bad back), most doctors, if not all, can not tell the difference between that which is consummately acted and legitimately presented.

That first paragraph was supposed to be quoted, sorry, im new



My wife has RSD or CRPS as many call it now. While Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy and Fibro are both problems of the sympathetic nervous system, I can tell you from 1st hand experience that RSD does present with physiological symptoms. My wife has broken both her ankles, her collarbone, and several other
bones in her body. Her RSD flares often include swelling and measurable temp differences in the are of the pain. The problem with her nervous system extend well outside her brain. She presents obvious physical symptoms as well as extreme neuropathic pain. We went to one specialist at a Hospital in Tampa, he had a thermographic camera and when he would stimulate certain nerves in her back he could make one leg get colder, then the other go up in temp. it was wild. The whole thing was in no way therapeutic, but it didnt hurt her either. This was about 12 years ago. We have tried nerve blocks, neurontin, lyrica, and any and all other treatments. Opioid therapy is the only thing that has ever offered relief. She takes MSContin 60 mg 3x daily and Oxycodone 30mg 6x daily.

You sound like a very well educated and cool person but RSD or CRPS has brought a lot of hurt down on a lot of people. Please be careful and choose your words wisely. Free speech and all, but just be easy man, please.