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View Full Version : Wow, morphine from pods, finally.



More Feen
05-09-2010, 08:14 PM
I had this very elaborate dream the other night:

My buddy works in pharmacology research at XXX XXXXXX Univeristy and he was able to extract & isolate good things from pods.

His technique was much simpler than the Calcium Hydroxide/Ammonium Chloride method used for opium. He was able to use a scaled-down version of that used by industry.

The cool thing was that he is legally able to perform these techniques as a "preview" for each shipment of poppy-straw (legal term for pods & stems). It allows industry to check for average alkaloid content of a batch of straw.

I know that many people were driven nearly nuts trying to figure out a decent technique for extraction, with many, many failures & disappointments.

I cannot give out too much more info (can't remember it from my dream), except to say that if this is of interest to you, the key is using a binary solvent. After that, its like any other A/B process.

I also dreamed that I took 20mg of this isolated extract, prepped it for injection, pH 6.5, 0.22um filter, mixed with sterile saline, and shot it.

I awoke to find my pupils were pinpoints, my face flushed and red, and feeling kind of happy.

Well, this was an itch that took a few years to scratch. The best thing to do, the smartest thing to do now is to walk away from it, satisified. Goal accomplished.

Gotta watch Breaking Bad now,

M F

euphoricontin17
05-09-2010, 09:17 PM
Good shit, MF! I love how you never fail to cover all the legal bases and self-incrimination prevention too. Haha, this is good stuff.

More Feen
05-09-2010, 10:21 PM
Good shit, MF! I love how you never fail to cover all the legal bases and self-incrimination prevention too. Haha, this is good stuff.

Hey EC17, I'm sure my efforts would be no more effective than using SWIM, except all dis did happen during a migraine-tainted dream.

Have good one!

M F

Thanat0s
05-10-2010, 07:05 AM
no joke?
i real honest to god 'clean M' from pods IV DREAM???


...reading on 'binary solv' atm...

ill get back to ya, MF...

(no shit?! IV?! no codeine?!?!)

More Feen
05-10-2010, 02:00 PM
no joke?
i real honest to god 'clean M' from pods IV DREAM???


...reading on 'binary solv' atm...

ill get back to ya, MF...

(no shit?! IV?! no codeine?!?!)

Thanos, let me clarify: The technique gets the alkaloids, and seems to leave the drek (or dross) behind.

This alone is worth hooting about, but not too loudly, lest one attract too much attention. IMO, this was the hurdle that f/u all other techniques--getting rid of all that gunk and being able to work with the alkaloids.

Once one has these, the separation of the other players is pretty easy.

But this guy I dreamed about was so excited that he (stupidly) shot the alkaloid mixture (mostly morphine, but some codeine, thebaine, narcotine, etc...). There was enough codeine in the mix to cause a reddish face, and some itching for a few minutes.

Of course, if one were to try this IRL (with all of the appropriate licenses, etc..., of course), one should take an extra step to remove any unwanted chemicals.

Check the mail, I think you can find a link to certain articles.

M F

Synku
09-25-2010, 04:28 PM
Hey M F, I'm gonna revive this thread cause I find it very interesting!

Binary solvents huh? Funny you should dream about such wondrous things. What kind of binary solvent mixtures would you dream of? Water + Solvent mixtures or Solvent + Solvent mixtures.. And I'm gonna have to ask, were the pods in your dream the good old Arizonas?

Just curious.. when people have treasure troves, they gotta figure out how to use em :)

More Feen
09-25-2010, 10:38 PM
Hey Synku,

The process is probably best done with poppy straw that has the highest potency. The straw that industry gets is probably the highest, as it is bred particularly for this.

Those industries that mainly use thebaine, will have plants that make a lot of thebaine, other industries, other alkaloids.

If arizona product is the best a company can get, then they'd have to go with it, as long as they are properly licensed to do so. But there would be much more waste.

Water is very good at extracting alkaloids, so, yeah, water is often used. Even Kabay (the Hungarian Guy who first made poppy straw extraction viable) uses water.

There are lots of binary solvents that work for this. Some ingredients are hard to get, some are impossible. I don't know of any that can be bought from a hardware store.

The one I dreamt about uses a four-carbon alcohol, preferably branched.

This wastes a lot of material, if one wanted to stretch out their supplies, tea is the most economical use. But I do understand that for the sake of academics, it is of interest.

M F

* Please do not use any information I provide for illegal purposes. I do not intend it to be used in this manner. In the interest of harm reduction, the information was given to help prevent people from hurting themselves by using inferior, or dangerous techniques.

Morphus
09-26-2010, 12:33 AM
Hey Synku,

The process is probably best done with poppy straw that has the highest potency. The straw that industry gets is probably the highest, as it is bred particularly for this.

Those industries that mainly use thebaine, will have plants that make a lot of thebaine, other industries, other alkaloids.

If arizona product is the best a company can get, then they'd have to go with it, as long as they are properly licensed to do so. But there would be much more waste.

Water is very good at extracting alkaloids, so, yeah, water is often used. Even Kabay (the Hungarian Guy who first made poppy straw extraction viable) uses water.

There are lots of binary solvents that work for this. Some ingredients are hard to get, some are impossible. I don't know of any that can be bought from a hardware store.

The one I dreamt about uses a four-carbon alcohol, preferably branched.




This wastes a lot of material, if one wanted to stretch out their supplies, tea is the most economical use. But I do understand that for the sake of academics, it is of interest.

M F

* Please do not use any information I provide for illegal purposes. I do not intend it to be used in this manner. In the interest of harm reduction, the information was given to help prevent people from hurting themselves by using inferior, or dangerous techniques.

So what was the alkaloid content of the straw assayed?

More Feen
09-26-2010, 01:10 AM
That was a few months ago, but we had 4 sources of industrial straw that was tested, I think the best came out to something like 0.64% morphine & codeine by weight.

So 1 gram of ground straw = 1000mg of straw would have ~6.4 mg of morphine & codeine.

Why am I lumping morphine & codeine together??

Because the two chemicals are very similar, and ~difficult to separate (I think benzene is used tradtionally to separate them). Now-a-days, ion-exchange resin will do the trick.

That was an extra step that we weren't interested in performing.

So of those 6.4mg of M & C, most of it is morphine. We assumed 94% Morphine and 6% Codeine, or 6.016mg morphine and 0.384mg codeine.

This is typical, and most of the codeine we use in medicines is derived from morphine--its more prominent, and easier to collect in bulk. Plus, it is much easier to methylate morphine to make codeine than to demethylate codeine to make morphine.

M F

** PS Just a reminder, this was all a dream. Very lucid dream.

Indy
09-26-2010, 02:08 AM
There's so little codeine in poppies compared to morphine that if you consumed a dose of morphine the amount of codeine would be basically negligible. It's my understanding that that's why they are able to use IV pantopon. Also apparently the other natural opium alkaloids that they put back into pantopon allow the morphine to be tolerated by some people who are actually ALLERGIC to morphine. Just goes to show you that maybe we were meant to consume ALL the alkaloids, instead of messing with "god"s handiwork.

For example, morphine makes up anywhere from around 2% in really low-morphine varieties to 22%, while codeine makes up 0.2 to 0.75 % of the opium. IIRC 10% is a really common average for morphine, and most opium produced is somewhere around there. So if you take a dose of opium, and take all the gunk out to make an injectable product like Mr. Feen had, the percentage of total weight of the alkaloids is gonna be different, but the PROPORTION would be relatively the same. Now we took a reasonable average of 10%, and we'll take even the highest amount of codeine, just to be safe to get our proportion. 10%/.75% gives roughly 13 times the morphine as there is codeine.

THEN you take into account that codeine is INSANELY weaker than morphine....like A BAJJILLION TIMES weaker. But seriously, if you had More Feen's dose of "injectopium" and you took a decent sized IV dose. I don't know what the total would be but let's say you took a dose that had 20 mg of morphine in it. (doesnt sound like much but IV'd it's a decent hit cause of the way morphine is) this would mean you have a whopping 1.5 mg of codeine....that's one and a half milligrams of codeine. I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep over it. And that's a liberal estimate for how much codeine there is.

So basically, codeine is not the problem with injecting opium. there just isn't enough to really cause any problems. there's so little actual codeine in opium that most of the pharmaceutical codeine supply has to be made from morphine! That should be a fucking crime if ever there was one: "corruption of perfectly good morphine - TO THE FIRING SQUAD!"

retrogradeamnesia
09-26-2010, 06:43 AM
Wow for some reason I have an overwhelming desire to break out some Borosilicate glassware..luv me a good A/B extraction!
Yes, now that is the question..water/solvent or solvent/solvent and which solvents at that..? IMO there would be 5-6 likely sources, think I may have an idea of 1:part of the equation.

For ease to remove codiene the ketone in the codone will form a complex so you can seperate it out..?

More Feen
09-26-2010, 12:09 PM
One could plug in some of those keywords found in this thread, and spend 10 minutes searching Gugel for scientific journals that document how & what.

I mean, going in with 75% of the knowledge is okay, but having 100% of a proven technique is all the better.

Even just reading 2-3 decent articles can give a person all the info they might need, and a better understanding of the practice.

If you don't have a criminal record, you could try to start your own pharm company, and use these techniques to produce your own medicines, in a controlled & legal manner, of course.

Once established, you could then obtain all the proper material to make the purest of the pure compounds--read ion-exchange & chromatography.

M F

blackhole
09-26-2010, 05:52 PM
How did you determine that you had morphine and not another alkaloid?

What form was the final product in? Did you have to convert it to a salt?

More Feen
09-26-2010, 07:08 PM
First, the alkaloids are in the free base state.

If you have an accurate method of determining pH, you can then "fractionate" your alkaloids:

At pH 7.5--this alkaloid will come out of solution,

At pH 8.0 another,

At pH 9.1 some others,

Keep going and separate each fraction.

As was mentioned, codeine & morphine tend to go together. There are presumptive tests for morphine, that will cause a color change in a testing solution if morphine is present. This should happen at the correct pH fraction, and not at others.

Once the free bases are collected, then one could salt them, if desired, if they need to be water soluble. Depends what your goal is, sometimes the free base is better than a salt. Even then, the sulphate salt can be undesireable compared to the hydrochloride, for reasons of a "watery" nature.

M F

borohydride
09-28-2010, 06:47 AM
Well done, I used to use the Afghani technique on pods - scoring each day & scraping off the accumulate opium. I then put the opium in boiling water & filtered out anything that didn't dissolve - this makes 'cleaned opium'. I then used ouzo to make DIY laudanum. I even had victorian labels stuck on them, just for the laugh.
There is so much sense of achievement in doing it yourself. You get higher off your own supply ;-)

In the UK, we used to get the raw opium imported from India. It was made from poppy straw. The plants were not allowed to form pods because it could be diverted too easily. If course, someone should really be looking into growing Papaver orientale because the roots contain about 2% thebaine. Thebaine is the precursor to buprenorphine... & etorphine (M99). In fact, replacing the methylbutyl in the etorphine with a methylpentyl increases activity by 40%. Thats 5400x M.

If chemistry isn't you bag, just ignore me.

More Feen
09-28-2010, 09:19 AM
Like many others,

This process was bugging me for years. If only I had searched Gugel a little more thoroughly for the answer. Because you KNOW there has to be a way, its just trying to find it.

Like others have mentioned, it really isn't worth the time & is wasteful. But like an unscratchable itch, it needed to be relieved.

Please don't ever do this IRL, maybe dream about it, like I did, and be happy with that.

M F

** Moderators, we can close this thread anytime you want. I posted this in early May, and within a month or two, the Arizona Farm was wiped-off the face of the earth. If I had anything to do with that--my bad.