Maintenance prevent relapse?

[Chemical_Boy]

For those of you who are on long term maintenance, have you found that this helps you to stay clean, or does it just give you a safety net to be able to use without withdrawals?

[djbluebeard]

Methadone maintenance maybe.
Subo maintenance for me, as it is for alot of people, was just a nice source of income to fund that heroin habit...

[nick]

Hell,maintenance can be used for either-it's up to the user.

[OpiateQueen]

Hell,maintenance can be used for either-it's up to the user.
i think he knows that - i think thats why he's made a poll, to see how most users see/treat their maintenance.
It depends what phase you're in too... like i still used while on methadone for the first 6 months, but then due to many factors, managed to keep it just to methadone.

[Dolofinell]

Hell,maintenance can be used for either-it's up to the user.

Wise words nick, Methadone has kept me alive through rough times, because Ive
chosen to let it do the job it is suppossed to do. Curb my cravings, keep me well for
24+hrs. As far as stopping a relapse. Its been 6yr. on 'done now. My whole lifestyle
has changed. Given me stability in my marriage and my job.


It'd be a pain in the ass for me to try and cop ( pills or dope )and I dont have any
desire to at all. Just my Benzos and my 130mg. of 'done a day, only go to the clinic twice
a month. So ya MMT prevents relapse 4 me.

[Thanat0s]

maintinence in no way helps me,
other than giving me a decent excuse to get strung...

bupe/pods/'done/whatevs,
maintainence IS srung out in my eyes.

relapse into what?

[Dolofinell]

It may be strung in your eyes
but it def. isnt in many others.
It saved my life.
Dont know 'bout you but after
6yrs. MMT Get know buzz at all
from my dose.
I am maintained, keeps me out
of the anhedoic state I was stuck in
for years. I was always unhappy,
now IM NOT! and thats w/out
a buzz. Must be an AA'r huh.
I know I wouldnt be paying
my bills, or be w/ my wife and 4
wonderful kids without this
"strung" :rolleyes: maintenance.

[Thanat0s]

It may be strung in your eyes
but it def. isnt in many others.
It saved my life.
Dont know 'bout you but after
6yrs. MMT Get know buzz at all
from my dose.
I am maintained, keeps me out
of the anhedoic state I was stuck in
for years. I was always unhappy,
now IM NOT! and thats w/out
a buzz. Must be an AA'r huh.
I know I wouldnt be paying
my bills, or be w/ my wife and 4
wonderful kids without this
"strung" :rolleyes: maintenance.


thing is bro,
if yer taking a decent dose of opiods daily,
and NOT getting high...
that IS by definition strung out...

im not saying it isnt a more positive way to handle being strung,
but dont deny that anyone on 80+mg of 'done a day ISNT strung out.

for me? i may as well be chasing a high...

if im dealing with the bullshit of a physical habit,
id just get high.

this isnt from a PM POV obv,
but you pain mgmt folk cant deny being 'strung out' as well...

a physical habituation to opies IS strung.
repeat IS.

no offense at all to anyone,
really.

[Import]

^^^Eh, to me strung out is a combination of physical dependance and behaviors/attitudes/desperation as well. Different definitions I guess.

I said yes. I have no urge to cop dope anymore, and I'm happy. Only relapseS I've had in nine months was a fent patch a while back, and a lil morphine (oral) one time before that. I've never been able to live like this and be happy without maintenance. It sucks still being physicaly addicted, but it doesn't cause problems for me any more. I just go in, get a weeks supply, and move on with life.

[Thanat0s]

^^^Eh, to me strung out is a combination of physical dependance and behaviors/attitudes/desperation as well. Different definitions I guess.
I said yes. I have no urge to cop dope anymore, and I'm happy. Only relapseS I've had in nine months was a fent patch a while back, and a lil morphine (oral) one time before that. I've never been able to live like this and be happy without maintenance. It sucks still being physicaly addicted, but it doesn't cause problems for me any more. I just go in, get a weeks supply, and move on with life.


NO argument here,
just to be clear.

it IS indeed a diff of definition in some ways,
but also subjective commentary re: thread topic...

if i KNOW im physically dependent im not 'happy'(yeah right)
unless getting high...

and knowing im still habituated makes ME wonder why im not high,
lifestyle choices aside.

i been strung and high and NOT doing the 'hustle/score' loop...
dont have to be fully in that game to be getting high.

personally i hate phys dependence for no 'payoff' as they say...

[Dolofinell]

^^^Eh, to me strung out is a combination of physical dependance and behaviors/attitudes/desperation as well. Different definitions I guess.



EXactly what I was trying to say. You did
it much better import.

[More Feen]

I'd be a happy mofo if my doctor would consider me for "morphine maintnance."

[duck]

ehhh i lean more towards Than, if you're taking a strong opiate every day for years, you're strung to the gills.

It may have saved your life, sure, but your still strung on it. If a doc wrote me a script of IV heroin for years, it would go a long way in saving my life too b/c I would never be on the streets trying to score in some random American city.......but I'd still be strung to the gills.

I do understand the argument that strung is different than addicted, and people strung out have other destructive behavior tendencies. I just feel like by not being able to call severe dependence 'strung', you're kind of downplaying just how significantly addicted one is.

I mean no offense to anyone, I hope that goes without saying. Just a linguistic chat :) (sophistry? lol)

[dharma bum]

Yep. I'm strung out on 4 mg of suboxone a day. I really don't realize it till i don't do the suboxone. But I only relapsed like3 times early in my sub maintenance. Haven't used any other opiate in way over a year. I relapsed 3-4 times i think in my entire sub career. Once a shitload of dilaudid. Once methadone. One 100 mcg. fent patch......and that is it.

Maybe I'm fooling myself but I feel the lifestyle change is the most important thing here. How you live yer life. Ethics. How you get along with others---including employers/employees, friends and family. This is kind of a knee-jerk opinion here ill admit. But all that seems to be included in the definition of being 'strung out to me. I shwer once a week wether i need to or not.

[tui]

I used throughout being on MMT, and now sub maintenance. Neither helped with cravings. It worries me that I can't even have "clean" time while on maintenance. How the hell will I ever stop for good?

[acey]

there is always a bit of jealousy when it comes to people who have begun to once again "manage" their lives. When it comes to being a junky, if you read about someone who became stable while your not you become skeptical and can easily use a blanket term like "strung out". If your not blowing all your funds, wrecking your personal/family life, and running the risk of OD/legal issues/dying then your not strung out. So if the 'done is working for you and your not faced with any of the usual negatives, congrats.
Its always an option for me that I keep open if I really have trouble staying clean, apparantley this shit is addictive;)

[Poppylvr]

For me, bupe stopped the cravings and kept me from totally fucking up my life again.
I sincerely hope that I am able and willing to stay drug free once I'm clean off the orange devils.
Should I find myself using or craving badly again, it will be back to bupe for me.

[doctor diesel]

The bupe has never even touched my cravings.
I don't understand it when people like Granny Poppy say it helps them, cos for me, it really, really doesn't. :(

Doc

[Dolofinell]

ehhh i lean more towards Than, if you're taking a strong opiate every day for years, you're strung to the gills.

It may have saved your life, sure, but your still strung on it.

Hmmm Ive always liked you and Thans posts very insightful.

I guess since you and Than arent actively using opies your clean and

those of us with years clean in maint. are "STRUNG OUT". Is this

the AA/NA forum? I mean no offense to anyone, I hope that goes

without saying.

WOW STRUCK A NERVE IN ME THERE, Sorry to the OP for heading way off topic.

[OrangeLude]

I had been using on & off - mostly on - for 40 years... there were afew periods of complete abstinance in 12 step format - 6 years, 4 years, 3 years....over 7K in meeting. Periods of clean time would get shorter and periods of using longer & more destructive.

Began mmt about 13 months ago. I may have used 10 times in those 13 mos. To me that is huge progress. Most of those 10 uses came just after my bro died, no excuse, just gave myself the freedom to use and not feel the pain for a few days. The ability to deal in stable way with extreme difficult life situations...huge progress. I don't feel the pressure of 12 step 'do or die' mentality & I just returned to a meeting.

Progress is a much underused word in recovery.

Occasionally I face the thought - that if I tickle it becomes a craving - to go and bust out using - pillaging mid western towns and being a renegade - not caring about anyone or anything but my self...in that fantasy I end up alone in some hotel, cooped up with as much junk as I can horde and want to be left alone, I don't care about the peole that love me & need me,,,the drugs have taken all that away... I hope I never go there ...again or ever.

[Thanat0s]

using relapse to prevent Maintinence,
atm.

[tui]

The bupe has never even touched my cravings.
I don't understand it when people like Granny Poppy say it helps them, cos for me, it really, really doesn't. :(

Doc

ditto

[OpiateQueen]

TUI - neither did anything for my cravings at levels below 100mg... I had to move, do all that bullshit, and then go up alot in dose - althoughi had other reasons forr this... But that finally stopped me using. There was no point - it did nothing.
BUT you do then end up strongly addicted to methadone... And Than in my view that does have trade offs, besides not getting high - eg.being able to maintain a normal life, employment, family, money, etc etc. There are some freaks who reckon they can do that on a smack habit - well i reckon they're few and far between, and from your previous posts it doesn't sound like you were that guy....

Tui - what you so strung on anyway? I though gear near imposs to get in NZ?

[Thanat0s]

bupe keeps me well as fuck,
for about a month its cool,
kinda novel to not be hustling dope all day for awhile,
but even 2mg a day turns to shit, IMO, given enough time.

bupe doesnt help my craving at all used for maint.
i can sniff 1mg or so now, clean, to get a decent high,
keeps me from other opiates,
but thats not maintinence administration.

weed prevents far more relapse thinking than opiate maint ever did...


<-not strung rite now...

[duck]

Hmmm Ive always liked you and Thans posts very insightful.

I guess since you and Than arent actively using opies your clean and

those of us with years clean in maint. are "STRUNG OUT". Is this

the AA/NA forum? I mean no offense to anyone, I hope that goes

without saying.

WOW STRUCK A NERVE IN ME THERE, Sorry to the OP for heading way off topic.

Your acting like my argument because it bothers you makes it untrue.

Yeah, since I am not physically dependent on opiates, I am not strung out. Yes, since you have been taking an extremely powerful opiate every day for a while, you are 'strung out', by my definition of strung out.

If your ability to function depends on getting mind altering/mood altering drugs, you're strung out in my book.

No reason to take offense my friend.

[paups]

Your acting like my argument because it bothers you makes it untrue.

Yeah, since I am not physically dependent on opiates, I am not strung out. Yes, since you have been taking an extremely powerful opiate every day for a while, you are 'strung out', by my definition of strung out.

If your ability to function depends on getting mind altering/mood altering drugs, you're strung out in my book.

No reason to take offense my friend.

+1 (gently of course):o

[OrangeLude]

using relapse to prevent Maintinence,
atm.


there's humor in them there posts of yours.

someone had to go to the dictionary - well I did...
strung-out
(strŭng'out')
adj. Slang



Stupefied from ingestion of or withdrawal from a drug.
Addicted to a drug.




Severely debilitated from long-term drug use.
Physically or emotionally exhausted.



I think its those negative connotations that Dolo is offended by. 3 of those are not the case for an mmt patient. The 3 are judgements that mmt patient could be strung out junkies...when in fact they have gone through the mill to return to a life of stability that is far greater than being referred to as 'strung out'

[OpiateQueen]

Personally i would never associate the term 'strung out' with someone who is maintaining on methadone and following the program properly ("ie.not abusing the methadone or any other drugs).

'Strung out' makes me think of people in withdrawls. Or that up and down life of severe junkiedom:p

[Chemical_Boy]

For those with success or mixed results (read: really trying), are you on methadone or bupe maint?

For the get out of jail free crowd..... enjoy.


I am sick of the "game" myself. Don't know what the answer is for me, but I gotta figure something out. If not sobriety, I at least need stability.

So sick of this.

I have found in the past that bupe really doesn't help my cravings. Methadone does. But I still fucked up when I was on it. Then when I CT kicked it, it was fucking awful. Don't know what is worth it to me. NA, maintnence, etc.... can't do it on my own. That is for sure.

arg.

Also, if bupe works on your cravings, what dose are you on?

[nick]

I think a better question would be,what should be considered successful maintenance.

[acey]

If your ability to function depends on getting mind altering/mood altering drugs, you're strung out in my book.

No reason to take offense my friend.


So if someone is dependent on drugs that affect the mind/mood for parkinsons, suicidal depression, epilepsy, diabetes etc, then they are strung out? Thats kind of a cultish, abstinence or die, Tom cruise scntology sounding, all medication that can affect the mind is evil blanket statement.

To require ongoing medicinal treatment is FAR from strung IMO.

[alowishus]

Now you guys are just jerking each other off over semantics. :rolleyes:

I don't care what drug you taking or why; if you stop taking it and you get really sick from W/D - you addicted/dependent/hooked/strung out/fucked/maintained by THAT drug.

I don't think theres much wiggle room in that.
Ya is or your aint.

[duck]

So if someone is dependent on drugs that affect the mind/mood for parkinsons, suicidal depression, epilepsy, diabetes etc, then they are strung out? Thats kind of a cultish, abstinence or die, Tom cruise scntology sounding, all medication that can affect the mind is evil blanket statement.

To require ongoing medicinal treatment is FAR from strung IMO.

when did I say strung out is inherently bad/evil? One can live a perfectly good life while strung out. People do it all the time.

[acey]

when did I say strung out is inherently bad/evil? One can live a perfectly good life while strung out. People do it all the time.


Once again, it's a matter of ones own personal defenition of strung out... I guess I think of the term strung out as negative and a bad thing. Being reliant on a drug isnt necessarily a bad thing and your right, you didnt say being strung out was inherintaly bad that was me putting my twist on the term.

Being strung out on BUPE was one of worst times....expensive, didnt help worth shit for cravings, and was a horrible coming off even with a taper.

[Flowergirl]

I don't care what drug you taking or why; if you stop taking it and you get really sick from W/D - you addicted/dependent/hooked/strung out/fucked/maintained by THAT drug.


Hey, now. Dependent does not necessarily equate to addiction. People can be dependent on a drug, be it insulin, dilantin, or oxycodone, and not be addicted to it. ;)

[dave2002]

exactly flower girl,now if only more of our health professionals thought the same way as you,we wouldn't have all this confusion and misinformation that is annoyingly prevalent these days.
Strung out for me means being at a point where just quitting on your own will not work(99.9%)of the time.

[Poppylvr]

Musings re maintenence:
I consider myself an active drug user. There is NO QUESTION that I am addicted to suboxone physically and emotionally dependent on it.
I have stopped attending my supportive AA meetings because of the guilt I feel while using Suboxone.
I have many times gotten a really good feeling, I can even call it a high while on Subs.
I chase that feeling.
In my case, these are addictive behavior signs. I have NO CRAVINGS to use pure agonists, but I do crave my daily "sigh" little relaxation and blurring from my subs dose, even as I'm weaning from it.
What I'm worried about is being able to participate on Opiophile once I'm off the Suboxone. I'm afraid my reading f people's enjoyment of their full agonists wil push me towards trying them again. I have proven to myself over and over "Once is too many and a thousand never enough".

[Restharrow]

using relapse to prevent Maintinence,
atm.

My laugh for the day (with you -- not at you)

Thanto's statement, made quickly with straight face, could probably avoid some arguments in my past. Too bad I just saw it.

Will

[Thanat0s]

Musings re maintenence:
I consider myself an active drug user. There is NO QUESTION that I am addicted to suboxone physically and emotionally dependent on it.
I have stopped attending my supportive AA meetings because of the guilt I feel while using Suboxone.
I have many times gotten a really good feeling, I can even call it a high while on Subs.
I chase that feeling.
In my case, these are addictive behavior signs. I have NO CRAVINGS to use pure agonists, but I do crave my daily "sigh" little relaxation and blurring from my subs dose, even as I'm weaning from it.
What I'm worried about is being able to participate on Opiophile once I'm off the Suboxone. I'm afraid my reading f people's enjoyment of their full agonists wil push me towards trying them again. I have proven to myself over and over "Once is too many and a thousand never enough".
fwiw,
i wondered how or if id be able to find a place for myself on 0phile, post subs...
really, Opio does more to prevent relapse than maint ever did...

Hope you can find a way to stick around PL, and anyone considering 'cleaning up.'
one 12 step principal i DO actually subscribe to
is the idea that working with others striving to get clean/sober
helps YOU realize and appreciate where youve been,
as well as providing a sense of 'purpose' when needed at times.

this forum is the most supportive place ive ever gotten clean,
nice to have a place to spill your secrets,
(biggest factor that kept ME coming back to the dope game, 'secrets' are addicting)
and the long term perspective is crucial to me staying off of full time full agonists...

never could tolerate another meeting after my first mandatory '90 in 90...'
here tho,
its hip to be 'clean,'
'ok' to still use...

[alowishus]

I don't care what drug you taking or why; if you stop taking it and you get really sick from W/D - you addicted/dependent/hooked/strung out/fucked/maintained by THAT drug.

Hey, now. Dependent does not necessarily equate to addiction. People can be dependent on a drug, be it insulin, dilantin, or oxycodone, and not be addicted to it. ;)

We've gone through this whole debate many times before.

And that is what I mean about jerking each other off.
Po-ta-to
Po-toa-to
It's just subjective. ;)
So only the word dependent you had issue with....?

So what would you call it?

There is a person who takes a "pill" everyday and will take that "pill" everyday for the foreseeable future and one day he lost his "pills" and can't get anymore; then he gets very ill because he can not take his "pills".

Insert whatever med you want for "pills" in this scene - hash, blow, H, Rx'd opies, insulin, jellybeans, beer, baby livers from newborn seals, whatever.
Now what do you say about this person, what is their "condition"?
Is what you say about his "condition" based only upon what meds he takes?
Or how he takes them?
Or why he takes them?

So if the doc gave me a couple grams of H a week (they used to Rx it :D) to shoot and I did, would I be dependent or addicted?

It's all subjective semantics and the way some people trying to justify their usage by saying they're not an addict.
It's that whole stigma with opiates, and illegal drugs, just because you get them from that doctor for a reason doesn't make you any less hooked.
I'm not addicted to coke I just like the way it smells. :o

[OpiateQueen]

Bupe did absolutely nothing for my cravings - and i was on 8mg a day of subutex.
I used for the first 6 months of methadone use too..
It was only when i really jacked up the dose (for many reasons - preg, epilepsy meds, fast metab etc) that i stopped using. Stops cravings and wds obviously - AND there really is NO point in using cos it will do ab nothing at a high dose (i'm talking 150mg++). This is all fine unless you fuck around with your dosing - then it is a nightmare to go without, or to try and get enough from 'elsewhere'... although ive heard that prob a little easier over there...
You may have to bite the bullet and go on a high dose of 'done... if maintaining on it properly thats gotta be better than active H addiction spiralling out of control...no matter how long you're on it... Its hard not to think of the pain of getting off methadone as a big blocking factor - but i think that is used as a big excuse for people to keep using in many instances... esp when they've proven over and over that they CANNOT do it alone...

[LuckyNumber13]

all maintenance ever did for me was kept me out the streets every morning. instead of being in the dope spot first thing in the morning, i'd be at the methadone clinic.


but then again now that i think about it i was still in the streets copping. just not the dope spots. instead, the benzo and coke spots

[Poppylvr]

fwiw,
i wondered how or if id be able to find a place for myself on 0phile, post subs...
really, Opio does more to prevent relapse than maint ever did...
Hope you can find a way to stick around PL, and anyone considering 'cleaning up.'
one 12 step principal i DO actually subscribe to
is the idea that working with others striving to get clean/sober
helps YOU realize and appreciate where youve been,
as well as providing a sense of 'purpose' when needed at times.
this forum is the most supportive place ive ever gotten clean,
nice to have a place to spill your secrets,
(biggest factor that kept ME coming back to the dope game, 'secrets' are addicting)
and the long term perspective is crucial to me staying off of full time full agonists...
never could tolerate another meeting after my first mandatory '90 in 90...'
here tho,
its hip to be 'clean,'
'ok' to still use...
Thank you!