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View Full Version : For those on sub maintenance: how long can you go w/o dosing?



limitless_euphoria
05-03-2010, 06:14 PM
The title says it all. I'm going to present a hypothetical...

Say you've been taking your subs to maintain for a while. Let's say you took your last dose Monday morning at 8 am or so. How many hours could you go before serious w/d would set in. I'm curious to see the varying responses. A poll will be posted.

Feel free to describe your experiences.

I'd say the longest I went was between 72-96 hours.

Poppylvr
05-03-2010, 06:19 PM
I did 72 hours between the day before minor surgery and when I realized the lortabs were not doing anything either WD wise or for pain control.

jimmyfingers
05-03-2010, 06:24 PM
When I was on sub, I would play around with this type of stuff.

4-5 months maintaining on 2mg, I could easily go 3 days and feel fine.

limitless_euphoria
05-03-2010, 06:45 PM
I think in some people there is a psychosomatic factor. I've heard people say, "OMG, if I don't take my sub every morning I feel horrible," now I'm sorry, I defy anyone to tell me that they'd feel as horrible not dosing 24 hours while on sub vs. 24 hours while on full-agonist opiates! Although, some people metabolize subs a lot faster than others. There are certain psych drugs that expedite it a little (this was what *I* was told by a former sub doc) but his credibility was shitty. He was one of those shyster docs that are in it to be the legal drug dealer! Anyhow, I thought this would be an interesting thread.

Before i could really feel full agonist opiates, let's put it this way, I took my last 8 mg of sub on an early Saturday morning and it took 4+ mg of dilly to even feel that warm glow (IV and insuffilated) on a late Thursday evening. To really feel anything off full agonist opies, after being on maintenance for a LONG ASS time, truthfully, I'd have to stop for an entire week. I mean, it's pretty sad when I've quit for 96+ hours and 75 mg of oxy barely gets me buzzed. Bupe is definitely good at doing it's job, especially for oxy and morphine-related drugs. Yet, with Darvocet a.k.a. propoxyphene (which seems rare to come by nowadays) I could have taken a sub in the AM and take a couple Darvocet and it would actually potentiate the sub and make me feel warm and fuzzy. Eh, it was not a IV smack-type high but a nice 6-6.5 on the opie scale [where 1 is ain't feelin' shit and 10 is slurring speech and nodding face].

Now, for people who came to switch back and forth regularly, how do you find that? I know some dude that claims he can take 16 mg of sub at 8 am and by 8 pm he can shoot maybe 0.1-0.2g of average H and get fucked up. I'm wondering if, in his case, it's psychosomatic or maybe he has weird physiology. IDK.

dyrt57
05-04-2010, 03:50 PM
When I was on a regular schedule of 8mg for a couple months I got some 25mcg patches and ate all 10 in a couple days and couldn't feel anything from them. When I got them filled the pharmacist asked how long since I took a sub and I told her 4 days; she laughed and said the patches wouldn't work and she was right:(

nycjrt
05-04-2010, 03:54 PM
after a few years, the lower dosages (2-4mg) don't hold as long as they used to, or should...at 2mg i get real wd symptoms after about 14 hours...of course this enables me to 'switch' back to by doc (dope) which is the worst/best thing about metabolizing so quickly.
even when i started (buprenex ampules) and didn't fuck around and switch/take 'vacations' - almost 2 years - sub only held me for a little over 12-16 hours, maybe if i was drinking i could make it to 24hrs, but i would always wake up with sore knees, aching,etc...as bad as my wd from dope ever was...

Scagermeister
05-05-2010, 01:39 AM
I'm on 8 mgs/day split up into 2mg doses thoughout the day.

If I take my last dose around 2a.m. and wake up around 10 a.m. I start to feel pretty crappy around 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Nothing unbearble, just restless legs and the yawns...

So actually I'd have to say around 12 hours. I metabolize bupe fast though. I'm skinny as hell [5'10", 138lbs]

No more vacations for me though. I used to go 2 or 3 days without bupe when I'd score dillies and morph. Its so dissapointing when you anticipate that dillie rush and get jack shit.

doctor diesel
05-05-2010, 04:49 AM
I used to be able to go comfortably for three days between doses, but for some reason that's now down to two.
So in other words, if I have one day without my 6mg, the next morning I actually need a dose, rather than just taking it as a routine thing.


Doc

disk0
05-05-2010, 11:32 AM
About a day before I start to get too tired to do anything, then shortly after my legs don't want to stop moving, and it just gets progressively worse from there.

Fat Pie
05-05-2010, 12:32 PM
36 hours @ 14 mg for me.

limitless_euphoria
05-07-2010, 05:05 PM
My legs twitch and I CANNOT, for the LIFE OF ME, stop yawning when I go into early sub w/d.

The last vacation from sub SWIM took he got 150 mg of roxy and did them all in one night after no subs for 84-96 hours. SWIM got nice and warm, giddy, energetic for like 2-3 hours then it just faded into sleepiness (not even fun noddy fading in-and-out) that made SWIM just wanna go lay down and call it a night. SWIM got a good deal but to really enjoy subs I am convinced a person has to go off for a good solid week or take a shit-ton of opies at once. Dilaudid in 8+ mg doses IV can sometimes break through bupe after 2-3 days pretty well but still you really have to give it several days of time.


When I was on a regular schedule of 8mg for a couple months I got some 25mcg patches and ate all 10 in a couple days and couldn't feel anything from them. When I got them filled the pharmacist asked how long since I took a sub and I told her 4 days; she laughed and said the patches wouldn't work and she was right:(

Now you got fent patches from the pharmacy and the the pharmacist knew you were on subs? How did they knowingly let you take the Rx knowing you were a maintenance patient? Was it post op? Were you hurt badly or something? I don't get it!

RifRaf
05-08-2010, 04:29 AM
Of course it depends on the dose. Assuming that I tapered down properly enough to be comfortable at my current dosage I would say that generally this is how it has broken down for me personally:

- @ 12mg's I could wait about 3 days tops, although I would start to feel a bit edgy, but nothing horrible, at about 36-48 hours.
- @ 8mg's I could still wait about 3 days but the onset of withdrawals were a bit worse than just "edgy".
- @ 4mg's I could go for roughly 36-48 hours until I would be yawning, watery eyes and some anxiety with full blown diarrhea by day 3.
- @ 2mg's I can wait about 36 hours, but I prefer to only go 24 hours because the yawning and anxiety escalates a lot quicker, and feels worse at this dosage.
- @ 1mg's I haven't tried to go past 24 hours because I am never fully comfortable at this dose even when I have been on it for 2-3 weeks. This is one reason that I have never committed to 1mg's for more than a month, I always go back to 2mgs. I am scared to see how the .5 and .25 are going to feel.

With Methadone this wasn't really a huge problem. I was constantly lowering my dosage, once 30mg's at a time, even when my doctor advised against it. When I had my take homes I would usually just dose when I felt like it, I never did it as a routine. But I hate kicking Methadone (19 days to get even somewhat straight when I jumped from 10mg's daily), so I prefer Suboxone. But I am now finding out through my own experiences (have tried to stop twice and was forced to go without them in jail once) and through reading other experiences that Suboxone is just as bad as a Methadone kick, it maybe just takes less time but that is of course very subjective since this drug is so damn weird.

limitless_euphoria
05-08-2010, 07:07 AM
The title says it all. I'm going to present a hypothetical...
Say you've been taking your subs to maintain for a while. Let's say you took your last dose Monday morning at 8 am or so. How many hours could you go before serious w/d would set in. I'm curious to see the varying responses. A poll will be posted.
Feel free to describe your experiences.
I'd say the longest I went was between 72-96 hours.

Actually in rethinking this, as I did another thread recently, when I went w/o I also had 1 mg k-pins to take as necessary. Those I notice really help you through. If I ever jump for good I'll save up a shit-ton of those and use that to assist.

P.S. Maybe throw in some baclofen too. :) Figured I'd throw in some cross-thread humor.

bodytec
05-11-2010, 09:26 PM
i hate subs

bodytec
05-11-2010, 11:54 PM
of course the only thing to do with subs are:

take as little as you can so that when you score
you dont have to wait as long to hit

kill
05-12-2010, 12:16 PM
of course the only thing to do with subs are:

take as little as you can so that when you score
you dont have to wait as long to hit



ahahaha oh so true...this is the story of my life...

dharma bum
05-12-2010, 12:49 PM
I dosed every other day for months. 4 mgs a day. Lately I've been taking sundays off. I find if I wait a full 48 hours I get a good calm, relaxed buzz.

Also, if i have subs I can go longer without. If I didn't have subs and no way to get, I start w/d much faster. Which is surely psychsomatic.

But to answer the question I start to feel pretty bad after 48 hours. VERY high anxiety even with klonopin. I haven't went 72 hours in so long I forgot what it was like but I know I would be in pretty bad shape. What's funny is back when I was just a regular drug user (oxy, hydro, methadone) and I scored a sub. I would do that 8 mgs (before i knew about opiophile ;)) and would be fine for three days. Wouldn't even feel the need to get my full aggie on. Based on this i could conclude. The more you use suboxone, the more you need it....

The_Highwayman
05-12-2010, 07:40 PM
I've dosed every 24 hours for so long I don't even know. But when I had my surgery I was on the 32 hour mark with no sub and felt fine...

Vico-Dan
05-13-2010, 01:42 AM
I was so busy today, I forgot to dose and didn't even notice.

I think one can go two days without problems in most cases.

jimmyfingers
05-21-2010, 05:04 PM
I do believe their is some psychological factor in there is well. When I first started, I made myself dose every morning and would not get out of bed until I had about 15 minutes of my dose in my system.

That summer I got a job that caused me to wake up very very early and I would often forget to dose and feel fine. I realized that most people don't feel good in the morning and that it fades after you get going for a little bit.

Addiction really screws with the brain. Most people wake up every morning and take nothing and never ever think about how excellent that is. I wake up and don't consider it a good morning unless I have something to take.

LayinLow
06-02-2010, 01:12 PM
A quick question for sub users..... do you feel suboxone releases endorphins like regular opioids? I mean I wouldn't see why not since it is a partial agonist. Thanks for responses in advance.

doctor diesel
06-03-2010, 07:23 AM
A quick question for sub users..... do you feel suboxone releases endorphins like regular opioids? I mean I wouldn't see why not since it is a partial agonist. Thanks for responses in advance.

[QUOTE=LayinLow;500315]A quick question for sub users..... do you feel suboxone releases endorphins like regular opioids? [QUOTE]


Yes of course, although moderated slightly by the partial antagonism of the drug.

As for JimmyFingers previously, what you say is so true - the time of day that I most needed my pick-me-up DOC was first thing in the morning, and when I turned my back on the drug, I found it almost impossible to get out of bed in the mornings (unemployment doesn't help this either).
It was only after some months of abstinence that I - like you - realised that it's normal to feel shitty for the first fifteen minutes of life after you've dragged your sorry carcass out of the pit. But after that, you feel normal.
My DOC had conditioned me to really believe I would NOT be able to function without that glorious breakfast kick-start.
Oh how I miss it. :(


Doc

kill
06-03-2010, 06:33 PM
hahahah you know thats so fucking true...unreal...so unreal in how true it is...


before i broke outa that shit myself...i would set my alarm to wake up like an hour before i HAD to be up...i'd wake up and drearily put my suboxone in my mouth and re-set the alarm for another hour...and i'd fall back asleep..then the next time i woke up i'd actually be right on the glow....it worked well..


but now i mean i get up..and i don't remember to take my medicine till i start feelin shitty and i'm like..oh yea i gotta take that...roflmao...weed helps a lot tho too..and i'm constantly high...i'm talking 24/7...i smoke before i goto bed...wake up and immediately smoke...and smoke continuously through out the day

LayinLow
06-03-2010, 07:10 PM
before i broke outa that shit myself...i would set my alarm to wake up like an hour before i HAD to be up...i'd wake up and drearily put my suboxone in my mouth and re-set the alarm for another hour...and i'd fall back asleep..then the next time i woke up i'd actually be right on the glow....it worked well..

LOL, I do this all the time myself. I'm not on subs (will be soon, need some consistency in my habit) but I will wake up and take my hydro or morphine and go back to bed so when I wake up a little while later, I'm ready for the day!

kill
06-15-2010, 04:16 PM
lol...straight up if i didn't do it..i wouldn't get outa bed till i felt shit kicking in..no lie...i just refused to move...i'd be late..didn't care...fuck that..

AmblerG
07-04-2010, 05:09 PM
I have been on subutex on and off for years now, but recently I have encountered a problem that I have not had in the past. This past week it feels like the subutex isnt holding me like it used to. I feel like I'm shooting like every 6 hours sometimes. Granted, I am only shooting roughly 1-2.5 mg each time.
I cant figure it out. I dont get the horrible dysphoria, depression, and restless
legs Thank God! I do however get sweating and hot/cold sweats. It is bothersome. not unbearable, but still bothersome. The sweating can sometimes be noticed by others, which is annoying as well.
I cant understand why this is happening; I use only enough to get well and thats it. zero recreational value. Is my tolerance rising? this seems most likely.
I remember I would shoot a mg or two like a month ago and be good all day, maybe shoot a lil crumb of subutex before bed.
Now that I'm IVing like 5 times a day sometimes more, my veins are getting fucked. any advice appreciated!

kill
07-04-2010, 08:43 PM
you ever realize that when you shoot bupe instead of taking it the normal way it burns through your system insanely quicker than it normally would? your body just could be burning through it too quick..and your getting sick...


if anything shoot your first dose...but then take the second/rest as sublingual....you'll get the immediate feeling of shooting it...but after the shit you took subligual kicks in..it should last a hell of a lot longer for you...

ill_motions
08-03-2010, 12:43 PM
i really hate subs. I swear every time i take them i get different amounts absord in my system. I usually take less then a quarter to get pretty well. but the other day i took a 3rd of one in the morning around 8am and my mom gave me 60 bucks around 4pm, we went to dinner and I started w/d I was pukin and going to the bathroom. I called my dude got a 80 and was hella happy afterwards. but I have had other days where I took like a crumb and had to wait a little over 24 hrs to fell opiates. but most of the time it is around 16 hrs. I hate subs tho, they just don't do enough for me. they are a life saver and make me well but they don't help that depression at all.

doctor diesel
08-05-2010, 06:38 AM
i really hate subs. I swear every time i take them i get different amounts absord in my system. I usually take less then a quarter to get pretty well. but the other day i took a 3rd of one in the morning around 8am and my mom gave me 60 bucks around 4pm, we went to dinner and I started w/d I was pukin and going to the bathroom. I called my dude got a 80 and was hella happy afterwards. but I have had other days where I took like a crumb and had to wait a little over 24 hrs to fell opiates. but most of the time it is around 16 hrs. I hate subs tho, they just don't do enough for me. they are a life saver and make me well but they don't help that depression at all.


I'll second that. They save my life sure enough, but they never did anything to control my cravings or relieve depression.
I don't like subs at all, but I depend on the fuckers.
It's a love/hate relationship. Mostly hate tho.


Doc

Actavis
08-05-2010, 05:06 PM
for all of you on sub. please help swim with this. he has around a 300mg oxy a day tolerance, and anywhere between 3-6 x 4 mg hydromorphones (and sometimes 9 x10 milligram hydrocodones)
swim acquired some sub from a friend to try and take a break, and if the sub worked he was thinking about getting clean and going to a sub doc.
so swim takes his last dose of oxy at 4 pm on a friday night, gets up at 7 AM already in WD. waits till 10 AM and is definitely in WD, so takes an 8mg subutex and about an hour later 4 mg suboxone, NOTHING... he was still in WD BAD... waited a few hours and could not take it anymore so took 120mg of oxycodone that effectively had him feeling better in about 20 minutes. then took around 90mg oxy & 4-6mg xanax to get to sleep that night. (and took forever to get to sleep)
did he not take enough sub for the initial induction since he has a moderately high tolerance?
swim figured that 12mg of Bupe would at least get him halfway comfortable the first day. no go.
does he just need more Bupe for initial induction?

HELP :o

jimmyfingers
08-05-2010, 07:33 PM
for all of you on sub. please help swim with this. he has around a 300mg oxy a day tolerance, and anywhere between 3-6 x 4 mg hydromorphones (and sometimes 9 x10 milligram hydrocodones)
swim acquired some sub from a friend to try and take a break, and if the sub worked he was thinking about getting clean and going to a sub doc.
so swim takes his last dose of oxy at 4 pm on a friday night, gets up at 7 AM already in WD. waits till 10 AM and is definitely in WD, so takes an 8mg subutex and about an hour later 4 mg suboxone, NOTHING... he was still in WD BAD... waited a few hours and could not take it anymore so took 120mg of oxycodone that effectively had him feeling better in about 20 minutes. then took around 90mg oxy & 4-6mg xanax to get to sleep that night. (and took forever to get to sleep)
did he not take enough sub for the initial induction since he has a moderately high tolerance?
swim figured that 12mg of Bupe would at least get him halfway comfortable the first day. no go.
does he just need more Bupe for initial induction?
HELP :o

I would guess you took them too early. With synthetics like oxy HM they stay in your system a little longer and you probably have a lot of stuff built up inside of you. Tough it out about 36 hours

LayinLow
08-05-2010, 07:43 PM
sounds like you went into precipitated w/d, but just thought it was your normal symptoms.

""""""""" so takes an 8mg subutex and about an hour later 4 mg suboxone, NOTHING... he was still in WD BAD..."""""

If you take that much bupe and you are still in w/d, then all the sub did as send you a little deeper into w/d. I waited around the same as you as far as time goes between DOC and sub, and the sam thing happened. I started feeling a little worse w/d just for an hour or two, then back to where I was at. You need to WAIT longer to induce on subs... either that, or take the subs, be in a little w/d, and take more in the morning. You don't need more bupe for induction, you need to be deeper into w/d or take some, tough it out, take more the next morning. You will feel a hell of a lot better the next day....believe me... this same ting happened to me.

Actavis
08-05-2010, 08:22 PM
Don't think it was precipitated WD, as he has had MUCH worse WDs without sub when he has run out of oxy. MUCH MUCH WORSE... but i guess i thought that the sub would make him at least comfortable on the first day. if it was PWD, would 4 30's have brought him out of it in about a half hour?

again.. i dunno. maybe it was. but my WDs get so bad after the 24hr mark i don't think i could wait 36. my bones feel like they are tearing out of my skin!

Thanks for the advice though peeps....

i will tell "swim" to try and stick it out longer than 16 hours next try. and he is going straight to 24 for induction then going to try and drop to 8 then 4 in the next 2 days.

will update next time this is tried.

thanks again!

pegasys
08-06-2010, 07:37 AM
IME it takes a day or so for sub to actually stop WD when you habit is bi enough. SWIM does about a bun a day and it took 24 hrs after taking sub, after waiting 24 hrs after swims last dose of DOC to actually feel better and swim ended up taking 36mg of sub, so increasing dose doesn't help.

I think it has something to do with the bupe not being strong enough compared to your DOC and no matter how much you do ur body still needs to adjust to it. Since you are adjusting to a weaker opiate you still feel WD. I don't knoow this for sure, but thats all that I can figure out that makes sense. SWIM is trying to get on subs again tomorrow morning, just took last dose of DOC. I fully expect to be sick all day tomorrow, no matter how much sub I take in the morning

jimmyfingers
08-06-2010, 11:37 AM
I just do not think you waited long enough. Pills build up and take a long time to get out of your system.

To the guy that said sub is not as strong as other drugs. I will raise the bullshit flag on that. Sub is a hell of lot stronger than anything out their

I would try and wait 28 hours if you cannot make 36. I have heard of detoxes make people make 36 if they were on pills and 20-24 if the were on heroin

Actavis
08-06-2010, 01:37 PM
Thanks again for the advice guys.

will try to stick it out a bit longer next try. which may be tomorrow or sunday if i cant get my prescription filled. (which may be likely with all the shit going on with the fucking DE@)

i had to pay 540 just for my oxy script last month. including doc visit and other meds i had to fork out almost 1g. (AND I HAVE fuCKING INS) this is bullshit. i am used to paying 40$ for 4 scripts. god damn price gouging mother fuckers.

pegasys
08-12-2010, 08:03 AM
I was reffering to the partial agonist features of bupe vs the full agonist features of other opiates in your system, though this time I waitied a bit longer and everything was fine immediately, vs taking a few days to "adjust" to the bupe. It could have been a time factor, length of previous use (6mos) vs this time (one month).

I'm not sure what it is, so I could be wrong. Simplest answer is probably correct, so I'm probably wrong, if you wait lon wnough there is no need to, "adjust to your dose". Last time I waitied 18hrs from shooting 2-3 buns (good stuff too, over the course of a day or so), and didn't have precip w/d, basically just stopped me from goin any deeper into w/d then after about 10 hrs i started feeling better like I was on bupe normally.

This time I did a bun, waited 28 hrs, dosed with sub, felt better immediately. Time issue I think. I can admit when I'm wrong, tho I have heard lots of stories about bupe taking a while to fully work, which could just as easily be a time issue as a partial agonist issue so who knows. Basically I'm inclined to think its a time issue, just I'm not sure.

More on topic, I've gone with no bupe since the morning of the 9th and im just starting to feel w/d again. Last timeI would dose in the morning every day religiously. Ive found if you push through that shitty cold morning feeling you can be fine all day, for a while.

Fat Pie
08-25-2010, 04:34 PM
To the guy that said sub is not as strong as other drugs. I will raise the bullshit flag on that. Sub is a hell of lot stronger than anything out their

50 times stronger than morphine, to be exact. Pain patients are usually given doses in the low .mg range. It is our tolerance to opiates that makes maintenance meds like suboxone and methadone seem much weaker than they actually are.

GOLD N DIEMONDS
08-26-2010, 03:01 AM
subs due shit for pain IMO though'
pwerful yes
like FENT

the good doctor
08-27-2010, 03:31 AM
Don't think it was precipitated WD, as he has had MUCH worse WDs without sub when he has run out of oxy. MUCH MUCH WORSE... but i guess i thought that the sub would make him at least comfortable on the first day. if it was PWD, would 4 30's have brought him out of it in about a half hour?

again.. i dunno. maybe it was. but my WDs get so bad after the 24hr mark i don't think i could wait 36. my bones feel like they are tearing out of my skin!

Thanks for the advice though peeps....

i will tell "swim" to try and stick it out longer than 16 hours next try. and he is going straight to 24 for induction then going to try and drop to 8 then 4 in the next 2 days.

will update next time this is tried.

thanks again!

No, it's basically due to the fact bupe, ceilinged out, is equal to abou 160mg of morphine by mouth, or ~120mg of oxycodone by mouth, or ~60mg of methadone chronic dosing by mouth. You had a 300mg habit. It takes a day or two for your tolerance to fall far enough that the bupe will pick you up completely out of withdrawal. I researched it well before I got on it, and same thing happened to me, inducting after a 10-15 stamp a day habit.

You can always induct in an unorthodox way: take 2mg of bupe, put yourself in to PWD, take your normal dose of full agonist, which will lessen or eliminate PWD, and the next morning - the bupe will hold you decently - take more bupe, and you've been inducted.

Indy
08-27-2010, 04:26 AM
Bupe has been proven by testing to work very well for pain compared to other opiates......in people with no opiate tolerance. That's because if you don't have a tolerance, bupe is just like any other opioid, and is in fact a very effective one. Not really sure why I'm posting this since there aren't exactly a whole lot of us without an opiate tolerance, so for anybody here it basically does jack shit for pain.

Narkotikon
08-27-2010, 09:56 AM
Voted for 48 hours or 2 days. Anymore (especially on the start of day 3), I can definitely tell something's not right: antsy, irritable, anxiety, etc. By day five it's full on physical w/d.

dtklamf
08-27-2010, 12:17 PM
36 hours, but i'm on 2 mg.