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Thanat0s
03-19-2010, 08:47 AM
yet another night waking me up with questions, questions...

methamph addicts and 'god'

why do long term heavy meth addicts seem to have a common 'religious zeal' that is in no way grounded in actual religion.

many seem possessed by a bizzarr0 idea of 'god' as some mystical wizard trickster.
many i have seen or heard of washing peoples feet, all kinds of off the wall prayers, pilgrimages at all hours to curches, etc.

one guy ive know since first grade got spun... got all into 'god' and one night arrived at my house after finding a US airforce flight suit with a bible verse in the pocket in the street.
this was to him a sign from 'god' that the radar disc on the AWACS(we have a large airdepot here) was in reality a SPACESHIP full of frozen aliens like himself. through the flight suit he found his ticket 'home.'

i couldnt stop him from putting the flight suit on and riding his motorcycle to the gate of the airforce base. he tells the guards all about god, the awacs spacedome and the flightsuit and bible verses.
this was 3am btw...

luckily the guards simply laughed and idk how but they all talked for 30 minutes before my friend turned around and came back to my house. good thing too, because i sure wanted to stay up through the next day talking about this wizard god of his...

ive met MANY users of meth with stories and beliefs that were no less bizzarre.
even once they are clean from the meth, they still have the religious delusions.

wtf is up with meth?

chopstix
03-19-2010, 08:52 AM
It makes people delusional.

Thanat0s
03-19-2010, 08:57 AM
It makes people delusional.
but why 'god' and mythology!?

the cop fears and persecution delusions go away when the drug is discontinued,
the religious epiphanies seem to stick, and they
seem fairly consistent.

im a devout a-theist, rationalist and simply cant fathom how these delusions remain when the other delusions fall away...



EDIT:
did 'god' develop in early man as a direct result of some permanent evolutionary effects of psychoactive use?
much like the advent of language has been theorized?

have psychoactive shaped our evolution to include god to make sense of the experiences these substances create that we cannot rationally explain?

losangeleslifer
03-19-2010, 08:57 AM
....edit

dharma bum
03-19-2010, 09:09 AM
EDIT:
did 'god' develop in early man as a direct result of some permanent evolutionary effects of psychoactive use?
much like the advent of language has been theorized?

have psychoactive shaped our evolution to include god to make sense of the experiences these substances create that we cannot rationally explain?

According to Mckenna's Stoned Ape Theory that is exactly what happened....or certain mushrooms fascilitated our evolution and consciousness.

norseman
03-19-2010, 11:58 AM
I always liked McKennas mushroom evolution theory, but never really thought it was end all, be all. Their is definitely more too it, and I think traditional science has allot of the answers already.

Regarding meth, I bet if you took a bunch of certified schizophrenic's and long time meth users and compared there delusions, I bet you would find many similarities. They both got roots in dopamine!

I also believe that when you have intense psychedelic experiences or psychotic breaks, it is almost impossible not to find GOD in there somewhere.

Duckfeet
03-19-2010, 12:02 PM
I find that tweakers, hell, *any* subject that enters their brain, immediately goes into high gear, and unfortunately, they usually think they are making fascinating *deep* discoveries about the eternal nature of "whatever they are thinking about..." Even that wouldn't matter so much, except they also usually want to talk about it to whoever's around...once they get over the age of thirty or so...it's pretty pathetic...around here they have all kinds of street jesus guys who I swear are still doing meth...who knows?

Just fried brains...'don't mean nothin''

hero 1
03-19-2010, 12:06 PM
^man i dont miss those days

Thanat0s
03-19-2010, 12:55 PM
Just fried brains...'don't mean nothin''


thing is though, prehistory evoluntion wise, does it 'mean nothing?'

a link between early human 'fried brains' and the irrationality of a creator god/mythology...

meth may be an extreme example but are we removed from such effects in an evoluntionary biology sense?


EDIT:
i guess, more succinctly, how deep rooted are our socio-evolutionary ties to psychoactives of all stripes?
and do such common 'delusions' differing in character with differering substance but similar within said group of users point to a common ancesteral experience?

upstate_007
03-19-2010, 02:13 PM
Meth has not made a big presence at all in my area. Hell, I've never even known anyone that got strung out on it. Last time I saw it was over a decade ago.

Point being, I am fucking glad it's not here. Seems like a real fucked up drug that really throws people for a spin. We got crack and that's more than enough.

Uncle Wiggly
03-19-2010, 02:26 PM
@ Upstate: I couldn't agree more. I know there are some people who would say that it doesn't sit right to disapprove of one drug while using others but I've never seen any good come from Meth.

I don't see or hear about where I live now. When I lived further south it was every where. I lost one of my best friends to it. It's worse than shit as far as I'm concerned.

Opiyum
03-19-2010, 02:35 PM
thing is though, prehistory evoluntion wise, does it 'mean nothing?'

a link between early human 'fried brains' and the irrationality of a creator god/mythology...

meth may be an extreme example but are we removed from such effects in an evoluntionary biology sense?


EDIT:
i guess, more succinctly, how deep rooted are our socio-evolutionary ties to psychoactives of all stripes?
and do such common 'delusions' differing in character with differering substance but similar within said group of users point to a common ancesteral experience?


I may be missing your point but I think the common ancestor your talking about has less to do with evolution and ties to some sort of God mind and more to do with religious programming. Some tweakers exhibit the same behavior as anyone in a psychotic manic state and as confused as their minds are it's not too hard to understand why they always seem to go to the same place. A very narcissistic place filled with delusion and convenient answers to the most difficult questions that most religions try to answer and of course they feel obligated or "chosen" to share their insights with the world.
I imagine that if you had tweakers prior to the days of organized monotheistic religions then they would be walking around claiming to be the sun or having a direct line with Zeus.
I also think that in a manic state the most attractive subject for the persons mind to focus in on probably would be religion and spirituality and all the big Why and How questions. It's just an endless arena for the mind to play around in and leaves so much room for someones imagination to just go wild.

Thanat0s
03-19-2010, 03:00 PM
weird, just got a call 10min ago from the old friend who found the flight suit,
hadnt heard from him in a few months.

wounds up spun out in the hospital.

the newish 'shake'n'bake' meth, one-pot synth stuff is making the rounds here in OKC.

apparently this stuff is wicked in its undesirable effects, landed him in the hospital for a week or so...

ill know more this evening...
im sure god is involved this time aswell... heh...

why though in these grand delusions is it GOD rather than science or reason that comprises the Quixotic questing?

i get high and lofty at times but i dont veer towards god in MY delusions of granduer...

Opiyum
03-19-2010, 03:09 PM
.
why though in these grand delusions is it GOD rather than science or reason that comprises the Quixotic questing?

Because the nature of being manic and delusional is to be illogical and irrational and religion just happens to have both qualites. Although some do go a science route or political route with it but they twist it with myth and whatever else so things make sense in their mind. Rather than do research on the JFK assasination or the moon landing they will go off of hearsay from other delusional people or from some video on the internet lacking any references. Reading a book and going to the library and talking to people involved is something that a manic person isn't going to be able to do. They are too distracted by themselves and paying attention or sitting quietly and reading isn't going to be possible.
Like I said religion and the unknown make for a great playground.
Of course I don't have a PHD and won't pretend to know what the hell is going on in other peoples minds but your asking and I'm interested so I'm taking a stab at it.
Oh and your delusions of grandeur, like mine or anyone elses, are grounded in the knowledge that we are being a bit high and lofty. These aren't true delusions of grandeur anyhow or maybe they are the only difference being that the average person doesn't get swept away in them.

Chipper
03-19-2010, 03:18 PM
As a former tweaker, I never, ever had such delusions (but then again I have no religious beliefs whatsoever)

However, I do believe that drugs can bring out what's often "locked up tight" within.

Maybe I didn't take enough ? :p

digby
03-19-2010, 04:27 PM
If you consider that the definition of 'sanity" might well be defined as a large enough group of people sharing the same delusion, it gives an odd kind of twist to the whole tweaker outlook. I mean, if society was made up primarily of meth addicts, then the idea that someone was after you might well be considered the new gospel, headed by Paranoids with Christians as well as Atheists viewed as the crazy people.

underide
03-19-2010, 06:00 PM
Of course I don't have a PHD and won't pretend to know what the hell is going on in other peoples minds but your asking and I'm interested so I'm taking a stab at it.
Oh and your delusions of grandeur, like mine or anyone elses, are grounded in the knowledge that we are being a bit high and lofty. These aren't true delusions of grandeur anyhow or maybe they are the only difference being that the average person doesn't get swept away in them.

I'd like to have believed (and maybe still do) that i possess at least SOME knowledge or even a fraction/ a hint of some wisdom, but i believe that perhaps going any-further than stopping right on the dot of this sentence will undoubtedly make me even more self-absorbed in other peoples' minds, whether valid or not - maybe ultimately it matters not to no-one but the ONE??
But i guess i agree although could it not be possible that even if you recognize as either having had or still possessing delusions of grandeur or some vague, higher wisdom doesn't mean that you're anymore aware of your thought process as in - still being just as deluded if not more this time around?

I can see where this is going and i find it harder to stick to any certain 'rationale' than ever before, and even though i'm seemingly more aware of my own skewed thought-process than ever before (form personal POV, anyway) i suspect that does not make me appear anymore capable of being able to cope with the shit being thrown at me or sometimes even going skinny-dipping in that same old pile of my own accord, intellectualizing? Therefore - no better of a man i was before, perhaps much worse??

I know i can put myself on the spot and like i say - should've stopped at that first sentence, or restrained myself from doing just THAT.
But certain substances make one careless

harmonik
03-20-2010, 01:28 PM
kelly ripa was talking to me thru the tv with regis. they were like sisters and brothers. in the short time between this and soap operas i did some bastardly version of chemical research which equated to a fourth grader with a F in math using a fingerpaint to try and solve differential equations.

i found links between chemical names and my name, because i was holy. i was finding the fountain of youth. treading through journals and wiki pages which made no sense to me. i had hundreds of bookmarks and about 5kb worth of written text material on subjects ranging from nootropics to anticholinergics which were strung together by theories of government/pharma industry rigging society to be drones/whatever.

my computer could constantly change to provide what i needed in my quest for the apocalypse. before my eyes menus changed, labels changed, my programming IDEs had new functions... and all 'cause god did it. for me.

and then the soaps came on. i thought something in my head and an actor talked and reacted like she had just read my mind. i thought this was live tv. barack obama was recently elected and i felt there was an underground group of christians in the soap industry who knew apocalypse was close. the three immediate members of my family had this thought projection capability, or so i thought. i got worried and started thinking of my recent detox. oh shit, they heard me talk about drugs?! now they'll think i'm going to be a bad christ/antichrist or whatever it was. i felt i was the culmination of human filth, greed, and hedonism. i was the point between all wrongs, the perfect filth. and for this, i was chosen, as a symbol, to lead people into the apocalyptic war. was i jesus? no.. after concluding that my parents somehow authored several great books, bought corporations such as microsoft and walmart early on..had amassed a great wealth that i never saw.. i was sure. to them, it was a coincidence. they were filthy rich. but why? were they lucky? no. it was my money. my money to get into power. my money to sway people. my money to start the apocalyptic war. the perfect destiny. my native american ethnicity was a testament to the struggles of my ancestors and this all tied in to a balance of sorts.. i was the one.

panicking, i started to tell the soap stars that they shouldn't be afraid. i had the power to do what was needed and the savior would soon be here. oh, and i threw in a couple nods to marijuana. told them it wasn't as bad as gov't says. still panicking, i read a few verses from "The Constant Traveler" (great book, btw).. flipped to a random page. great, a page about native americans and psychedelic mushrooms. kept reading, panicking. soap stars are now saying popular biblical names and i'm tying this to the upcoming apocalypse.

i watch "I am legend" and write down pages of information on will smith's character's experiments with the vaccine and the disease. this tied into the apocalypse too. i thought the world was going to be desolate and i would be will smith's character. i stockpiled guns and food. i was ready.

..only a glimpse of the hell that went on in my head over a week period. this was ONE day.

this went away after a few days, but surely changed my perception on amphetamine psychosis. and i had only been up four days. first time IV use. but strangely not the last....

ps: my real views.. i'm an atheist. life is on this planet by pure chance. manipulations of simple pieces over periods of time spawn more complex pieces which manipulate and spawn... ad infinitum. our current universe was created by the big bang which was caused by the contraction and subsequent "explosion" of a previous universal state.

God_Albino
08-01-2010, 04:39 AM
Despite trying to 'unprogram' or unbias some built in lifelong teachings so i could examine them from a little better angle, almost everything, from hallucinogens (except DMT) to amphetamines just re-enforced my funadamentalist Christian beliefs, although when I discovered I could keep kind of a functional 4th plateau of DXM going nonstop around the same time I was first introduced to dexadrine n adderall... Shit started to get genuinely psychotic, though I kept most of it to myself. First I had this huge 'religious awakening' after staying up several days and nights in my closet on DXM, and coasted off this weird religious afterglow despite sobriety for a month or two, during which I was convinced half the people I knew were possessed by demons... Then I started using DXM again (to get my head straight... lol), and that's when speed was introduced. I felt like by using again, I was making some pact with the devil that would ensure I'd be a metal superstar... and it grew to the point rockstar wasn't big enough, I had somehow blotted my name out of the book of life, and was destined to be the Anti-Christ. The weird thing was, I knew more than a little about mental illness, but this, combined with the 'coincidences' that become more frequent with heavy dissociative use, was too real to write off.

My roomie at a hospital psych ward was experiencing a BAD case of meth psychosis, unscrewing EVERYTHING, and telling me how 2Pac was not only alive, but working for this special agency targeting him because he used meth. He'd talk into the vents and say 'Listen Pac, I love you man, I'm sorry, just please stop tormenting me bro!'. I think he believed Pac also possessed supernatural powers, in addition to having access to the latest spy gear. He told me when I left to watch the papers for his obituary, and get the word out what Pac was doing (no disrespect to him). It was like 2Pac was his God figure... Most of the former addicts at my old super-strict church were heavy tweakers in the past, but still very bright people now, even if you believe organized religion is for chumps, that aside... I believe the psychosis can play a part in it, but more than that, the levels of depravity you reach on speed may lead you to believe spiritual cleansing is the only way to make you whole again.

thesomoan
03-14-2011, 07:10 PM
I know this forum is a bit old, but I figured I'd still reply. I'll admit i don't have a lot of experience with actual tweakers but I do know some shit about what meth does chemically (one of the reasons it is one of like three drugs I would NEVER do). Anyway meth tends to make people feel incredibly grandiose and important, because it releases the endorphins people get when they are in power, secondly as just about everyone has said it causes stimulant induced psychosis pretty consistently. The combination makes delusions of grandeur incredibly common among meth users. One of the most common delusions of grandeur is a close connection to god. People need a way to explain why they and they alone are allowed to use such a destructive drug, and also explain why a fucked up tweaker like themselves is more important than anybody else on this planet. Having a special relationship with a higher power is a pretty good choice.

Thanat0s
03-14-2011, 08:01 PM
One of the most common delusions of grandeur is a close connection to god. People need a way to explain why they...are... more important than anybody else on this planet. Having a special relationship with a higher power is a pretty good choice.

works like a champ for many who dont even use meth too...

syntheticlove
03-14-2011, 10:56 PM
Meth puts the mind and body on overdrive with euphoria 10 times higher than orgasm. If you don't have a very productive craft or art form to pursue. You end up thinking up some pretty crazy shit or sweeping the driveway with a toothbrush!

Exploration/expansion of consciousness and mind is a very natural feeling. As one of, if not THE most developed animal on this planet, humans have a drive to grow and what divides us from the other animals is our MINDS. All that we know and think is based on everything we have experienced up until this point in time (dreams included). There is also a possibility of past lives and reincarnation (I don't know for sure) Add the genetic element to the equation and here we go, BLAST OFF!!!

The first time swim used crystal was very intense and interesting. Swim snorted a huge rail and two hours later packed a whole herb bowl full!!!!! and smoked it. Hot damn, shit fire, zippiddy doo da!!! Swim's heart was doin' about 180bpm and he wanted to run around the house like 3 times in a row. Decided not to because he was afraid he'd have a heart attack. Instead, swim just looked around and hallucinated like any other trip. There were witches in the trees going down water slides and dragons and streaks of lights bursting through the sky like out of another dimension. When swim looked at his friends face, it changed into about 40 different people in 5 minutes time. Such as a pirate with a patch on his eye, a wizard, black man, old man, woman, old woman ect.. Crazy stuff man! Did it only 5 times in the last 17 years though.

LSD, and mushrooms have had a profound effect on swim's understanding of the universe and soul. Add concerts such as Phish, Lords of Acid, Pink Floyd, Les Claypool, King Crimson ect... and swim has developed an amazing concept of infinity to some degree. At least a lot more than a book of stories and fanatic people in pretty buildings worshipping a tortured man on his execution device...all the while asking for money day and night on their own TV station. And swim even loves Jesus/avatar's of the world throughout history. Just NOT religious.

Love, Music, Expansion of consciousness/mind is the answer. yin/yang, good/evil, god/devil, sick/well, sad/happy ,6x9=42

Peace

SuperJunky
03-15-2011, 07:35 AM
I've done quite a bit of really pure meth. A lot of the one pot shit isn't properly cleaned and from what I understand leaves unwanted lithium salts as well as a good deal of pseudo that is even harder on the heart than the meth that is made. The racemic meth of the P2P days was racemic, 50/50 L and D isomers so it had a accompanying body high and IMO is much smoother and less frying. Still regardless of purity I've had delusions of being fallowed by the DEA or other government agencies (turned out I was right...) and some sort of chosen one(s) grandeur delusions. None of mine have ever been religious, unless you consider the cause of freeing all opiate addicts from the massive financial burden and pain patience from fearful doctors all for free a religiouse cause (what better religion is there to fallow?).

Don't write meth completely off, I've had many experiences where I didn't get tweaked out and was actualy very productive and had some interesting insights that stuck afterwards. One of them being that if you get completely spun out meth doesn't increase productivity, it simply tricks you into thinking it does. I've never gotten any euphoria from meth other than the minor rush that I got right after injection. I think the problem with the drug in general is that people do way to much and b it is usually bath tub type shit made in a couple mason jars and not completely finished or cleaned properly. At least in my experience meth, when pure and taken in small doses does little more than keep you awake and alert. I've never been a big stim person and maybe that's why I have a completely different idea of what meth should be. I realiz that most people want to feel there drugs and my use is an uncommon one but I know a lot of meth heads that feel that even though they are crazy as can be they are in much better shape than some one using opiates. Just as the majority of us consider ourselves uncommon junkies (at least I think so, could be wrong) I'm sure there is a tweeker here and there that hasn't lost there mind and has some self control over how much they use, has been for years and you wouldn't know it.

bl4cklabel
03-15-2011, 08:00 AM
I've done quite a bit of really pure meth. A lot of the one pot shit isn't properly cleaned and from what I understand leaves unwanted lithium salts as well as a good deal of pseudo that is even harder on the heart than the meth that is made. The racemic meth of the P2P days was racemic, 50/50 L and D isomers so it had a accompanying body high and IMO is much smoother and less frying. Still regardless of purity I've had delusions of being fallowed by the DEA or other government agencies (turned out I was right...) and some sort of chosen one(s) grandeur delusions. None of mine have ever been religious, unless you consider the cause of freeing all opiate addicts from the massive financial burden and pain patience from fearful doctors all for free a religiouse cause (what better religion is there to fallow?).

Don't write meth completely off, I've had many experiences where I didn't get tweaked out and was actualy very productive and had some interesting insights that stuck afterwards. One of them being that if you get completely spun out meth doesn't increase productivity, it simply tricks you into thinking it does. I've never gotten any euphoria from meth other than the minor rush that I got right after injection. I think the problem with the drug in general is that people do way to much and b it is usually bath tub type shit made in a couple mason jars and not completely finished or cleaned properly. At least in my experience meth, when pure and taken in small doses does little more than keep you awake and alert. I've never been a big stim person and maybe that's why I have a completely different idea of what meth should be. I realiz that most people want to feel there drugs and my use is an uncommon one but I know a lot of meth heads that feel that even though they are crazy as can be they are in much better shape than some one using opiates. Just as the majority of us consider ourselves uncommon junkies (at least I think so, could be wrong) I'm sure there is a tweeker here and there that hasn't lost there mind and has some self control over how much they use, has been for years and you wouldn't know it.

I've met 4 tweakers so far that haven't completely fried their shit/completely delusional.
Some have been using meth for 15+yrs, yet I've met kids who use meth for a few days
and think they're being followed, delusional, whole nine yards. I even knew a kid who tried
it a couple times and told me about the ridiculous hallucinations he had, yet the couple times
I've tried it all I get is a little relief from opiWD and an increased heart rate, no hallucinations
or anything of the like. So in my opionion, depends on how strong of a person said user of meth is?
Maybe has something to do with their grasp on reality?

SuperJunky
03-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Another thought I just had is that meth is more prevalent in the south where hard core christian beliefs are pushed upon people from a young age. The majority of tweekers I know are imported from the south. Grasp on reality probably has a lot to do with it, a lot of the experiences I've had with DXM mirror a lot of tweekers experience minus the paranoia but the spiritual insights seem the same, and while I've mixed pcp with meth (usually small doses of each along with as much fent as I could put in the needle with it). The combination of the to definatley increases the paranoia, I've had a couple early experiences with meth and was running around the house looking for some one hiding in the crawl space...

I noticed when I've done meth made the one pot method I got from my (ex)GF's sister that it was much different from the stuff I made or the stuff I got from a friend made in a lab. At one point I tried Lithium Carbonate for what at the time was thought to be bipolar disorder (god only knows if I'm bipolar or not) and I noticed that the stuff made me feel a lot like the dirty one pot meth that I had done. I noticed that people that are used to the one pot bath tub meth didn't like the pure meth I was making at one point, nor did they like the racemic meth made the old school p2p method. This one tweeker the sister dragged up from FL was really bipolar and meth actually made him normal. Considering there is no purification it's my beleif that some of the lithium and certainly a good deal of pseodophed is carried over, where as I rinsed the majority of it away with a simple toluene or benzene rinse (I was never a fan of doing the Birch reduction outside the lab where I had dry ice or liquid nitrogen, I always preferred the red P/Iodine method myself).

Any one with more chem knowledge than me want to speculate how lithium salts could be formed and carried over into the final product, it's always been a theory of mine but I never bothered confirming it. I always joked that if I simply made meth nice and pure, cut it with 50% pseudophed and added some lithium carbonate they would be happy with it, that I also never tried. Would lithium carbonate be active if smoked or any other lithium salts? All speculation but it seems to make sense. Why someone wouldn't like pure product over there own botched method I have no idea. I always IV'd or took my meth orally, didn't like the taste or effect when smoked.

TheTalkingAsshole
03-17-2011, 02:25 PM
These people are just reverting back to whatever it was they used to use to keep themselves
from feeling like the world/existence is one pointless fuckaround
And 9/10, since its America, odds are its christian religion
be it catholic or baptist
same shit happens to a lot of people around where I live
not just meth, but lsd and research chems seem to push people's psyches over the edge
and the only thing they can think to explain it with is JEZZUS and the DEVIL

shit, even John Lily starting talking some crazy spiritual shit near the end of his life
Monoamines=Spirituality

FiendMan
03-17-2011, 03:10 PM
the mushroom theory behind the birth of belief in god(s), most def makes a lot of sense. another theory that could have led to belief in god is the lack of science and a basic understanding of our world. life was so ridiculously difficult, dangerous, and tragic in early human development that people needed to identify the source of unexplained events that frequently resulted in death, famine, and sickness so one or many all powerful, all knowing, and vengeful/spiteful yet sometimes loving charectars were created by virtually every single group.

also, because of these factors many people didn't want death to be the end. in other words, they've suffered so much they needed a welcoming, blissful place to move on to after death resulting in the belief of heaven. given life still blows so hard for so many people, these ideas continue to thrive. well that and the disgusting fact that many folks quickly realized the power religion/god has over the masses that giving into reason and science cannot be permitted to replace these beliefs. the great amount zealot tweakers just take this to the extreme and are a little more creative...the world may never know why.