Raw Opium Vs. Heroin

[WarmCyanide]

Flippin around on Amazon.com. Looking at some books about Opium and came across a Jim Hogshire book. Then looked through the "comments" section below the book description. I pasted someones rant about it below. I wanted to get your Opinions regarding this person's first claim. I used tfse and got mixed results. some say H has the biggest addictive bite, others say Raw opium is the hardest to run from. Is the person quoted below talking out of their ass? (It hurt me to see O referred to as "a cancer":( )


Quote:
"These are the facts. Opium in it's raw state is many times more addictive than Heroine, as some of it's many active components have a significantly longer serum half-life than heroine. Figuratively, for those of you that aren't doctors, this means that this stuff gets in your bones and wont let go for weeks. Opium destroyed the nation of China, laying such vast waste to its people that it took nearly a century for it to recover. Many foreign observers felt that the death penalty for opium use imposed by the Communist government was draconian. It was, rather, the only way to cut this cancer out of their society."

[SirDonkeyPunch]

heh..e heh heh..

i can sorta see where theyre coming from but it becomes clear they havent had much of a habit. That is true that opium is a conglomerate of different alkaloids. there are probably a few alkaloids that have a longer half life than morphine but they are at much lower concentrations. Perhaps the WD from straight opium at a large habit would be worse than dope, considering you can kick that within a few days. But i feel that heroin is a lot more devastating on society, or perhaps its just todays "opium craze"

but i dont feel that opium ,because it may cause longer withdrawals, because of the different alkaloids would make it so governments would kill the users to keep the habit from spreading. I think the fact that H seems not as bad as opium is not because of the half life of the drugs,but more so becuase of the legislation and this "war on drugs' and the stigmatism thats attached to its users. No one wants to be associated with it or they are demonized by society.

[slugbone]

i guess it's because opium has more legs so to speak. opium is like a long distance runner, and to be sure the high lasts a long time and probably drags out the w/d and becomes harder to shake.

so far i have been careful not to go more than 3 days in a row eating opiates without some break so i don't get too phsically hooked, but at some point i will fuk up and it will happen, i mean is anything more inevitable than an addict trying to ration his supply then screwing up?

anyway i can see what the guy means but since i've never tried H i can't say for certain if its better or worse addictionwise.

[Paregoric Kid]

doesn't matter if you sniff it, smoke it, shoot it, eat it, or shove it up your ass, it does the same thing. opium's dominant alkaloid and the one responsible for almost all of it's effects is morphine. heroin is morphine with two acetyl groups which help get the morphine into the brain very fast. also, look at black tar that is basically acetylated opium because many mexican manufacturers don't bother isolating the morphine from the opium. withdrawal symptoms vary person to person so this is a very subjective question but in my opinion it doesn't matter because it's basically the same damn thing, if you do either too often for too long you will get a tolerance and become addicted.

[PRIZEFIGHTERINFERNO]

doesn't matter if you sniff it, smoke it, shoot it, eat it, or shove it up your ass, it does the same thing. opium's dominant alkaloid and the one responsible for almost all of it's effects is morphine. heroin is morphine with two acetyl groups which help get the morphine into the brain very fast. also, look at black tar that is basically acetylated opium because many mexican manufacturers don't bother isolating the morphine from the opium. withdrawal symptoms vary person to person so this is a very subjective question but in my opinion it doesn't matter because it's basically the same damn thing, if you do either too often for too long you will get a tolerance and become addicted.
your a smart dude. I always dig what you have to say...and over the past few years like to see your comments. So in response to what you just said about Opium and Heroin and morphine being basically the same...where does Oxycontin stand in relation...feel free to elaborate, if you want. it just seems like you know your shit and there have been many times i was gonna ask ya a question, i dont know your opinion on this would be great.

[WarmCyanide]

doesn't matter if you sniff it, smoke it, shoot it, eat it, or shove it up your ass, it does the same thing. opium's dominant alkaloid and the one responsible for almost all of it's effects is morphine. heroin is morphine with two acetyl groups which help get the morphine into the brain very fast. also, look at black tar that is basically acetylated opium because many mexican manufacturers don't bother isolating the morphine from the opium.

i guess i could have looked up the actual differences of diacetylmorphine(H) and untouched latex leaking out of a scored pod has. But your responses are much more concise. thanks, Donkey, PK and slug!!

[HistoryofMadness]

doesn't matter if you sniff it, smoke it, shoot it, eat it, or shove it up your ass, it does the same thing. opium's dominant alkaloid and the one responsible for almost all of it's effects is morphine. heroin is morphine with two acetyl groups which help get the morphine into the brain very fast. also, look at black tar that is basically acetylated opium because many mexican manufacturers don't bother isolating the morphine from the opium. withdrawal symptoms vary person to person so this is a very subjective question but in my opinion it doesn't matter because it's basically the same damn thing, if you do either too often for too long you will get a tolerance and become addicted.

I agree that all WD sucks, that's that. Some do feel worse than others, when you're looking back in time, through maybe more objective eyes, but at the time of WD a person on hydros doing a few a day and someone on methadone coming down are hating life equally.

I will say though that some take longer than others. And with opium, you're WD from many and not just one alkaloid. But that just doesn't seem to matter, because again it all sucks.

[stringbeanjeans]

doesn't matter if you sniff it, smoke it, shoot it, eat it, or shove it up your ass, it does the same thing. opium's dominant alkaloid and the one responsible for almost all of it's effects is morphine. heroin is morphine with two acetyl groups which help get the morphine into the brain very fast. also, look at black tar that is basically acetylated opium because many mexican manufacturers don't bother isolating the morphine from the opium. withdrawal symptoms vary person to person so this is a very subjective question but in my opinion it doesn't matter because it's basically the same damn thing, if you do either too often for too long you will get a tolerance and become addicted.


I completely agree that they're both addictive, but I've always felt that dope was much more psychologically addicting than opium. For me, dope is something that you can't stop dreaming about for months or years once you stop.

[Paregoric Kid]

I would say that oxycodone withdrawal is similar to morphine/heroin/opium withdrawal. oxycodone is a semi-synthetic opiate, it is synthesized from thebaine and it would be possible to synthesize it from some of the other alkaloids as well. the half life and the doses of oxycodone are similar to morphine (IV, that is).
codeine makes up a very tiny amount of opium and I very highly doubt if it adds much at all to the effects of opium. codeine itself does not bind to the opiate receptors very well at all, it needs to be metabolized. smoked the only additional effect from the codeine would be additional itchiness. swallowed, it would convert more codeine to morphine but you get the trade off of wasting most of the morphine that makes up most of the opium because it has poor oral bioavailability, so no, the codeine doesn't really matter. even if it did codeine is methylmorphine, metabolized into morphine, it's the same thing basically after the methyl group is removed during it's metabolism. again I come to the conclusion that opium and morphine/heroin are not much different. thebaine is the third most abundant alkaloid after morphine and codeine. it is also in small amounts like codeine. unlike morphine and codeine, thebaine is a convulsant, no fun at all. if they could genetically alter opium without thebaine I'd be all for it, because it is not necessary for our purposes. thebaine is a great precursor for many synths (oxycodone/morphone, dihydro/etorphine, etc.) but there is no recreational use for it, unless you consider convulsions recreational. there are a few acids and 27 other alkaloids that opium contains and they are not psychoactive, to my knowledge, and even if they were they make up too few of the alkaloids to matter even if they were. so basically, opium is morphine in a natural smokable form. there is other stuff in it but it's not necessarily like weed where other chemicals in it contribute greatly to the high. opium can be less intense if you don't take much but if you take the right dose of opium, heroin, or morphine, you're going to get the same high, except with heroin you get a rush because it gets into the brain faster filling the receptors quickly and I believe leaves the brain slower. aside from heroins initial rush the high is the same. morphine is morphine.
psychological addiction is subjective, you can become deeply psychologically addicted to ANYTHING. if a person is strongly addicted psychologically he could get addicted to opium at one point and find the withdrawal mild and yet take an equipotent amount of morphine or heroin and find it to be total hell. that is something mental and unique to the individual where his perceptions, expectations, and anxieties can effect the degree of psychological withdrawal. physical withdrawal are the symptoms that a person shows when they discontinue using after developing a dependence/addiction and are objective; anyone can see someone yawning and sweating and having goosebumps all over and they are all genuine physical symptoms (though if a person is suffering anxiety it's possible that it could produce some physical symptoms). perhaps the psychological aspect of withdrawal could be controlled with anxioyltics and in fact benzos are widely prescribed and given to those in withdrawal. withdrawal to morphine whether it be from administering it by taking opium or by shooting heroin or by taking morphine the end result is morphine and the physical withdrawal symptoms will be the same.

[PRIZEFIGHTERINFERNO]

alright ignore my ignorance...i understnad what you said...i read it twice (once out loud to my wife). I got what you said about if you take in enough morphine/heroin or opium you can get an equal high...correct me if im wrong. Is there a real equivalent to Oxycodone to put it on the same par with the above three. Or because its synthesized from thebaine is it just not at that level?

[Paregoric Kid]

yes. oxycodone is said to be either slightly more or less or even equal to an IV dose of morphine. there are subtle differences but they are basically the same. some people find oxycodone to be stimulating and thebaine itself is said to have stimulant-convulsive properties so it could be related to it's structural relation to thebaine. I have noticed it can be less sedating on it's own but in my personal opinion I'm not so sure it's more euphoric than morphine. taste is subjective but I would like to find a study on animals self administering oxycodone and morphine, that would really give you a clue as to how different they really are or aren't. they do research to see if animals can tell the difference between drugs, I looked but there are so many papers, if I find one that has info on that I'll post it.

[red26]

All I have to say is DAm. I been awaitin fer an answer like that P.K. and patience has survived!!!!
No shit bro, where ya been?

[WarmCyanide]

I think we should make PK one of our resident chemists!:)

[Sitar]

The withdrawal syndrome from oral use of opium is generally considered worse than the withdrawal from heroin, even IV heroin, for a variety of reasons. The main reason is that opium is over 40 different alkaloids, and despite the relative amounts of each of them, you will still become addicted to several of those substances, thus withdrawing from many alkaloids instead of just one as with heroin. Some opium alkaloids have analgesic pain-killing properties, some are muscle relaxers, some are stimulants, etc. So the addiction and withdrawal from natural opium is very complex and multi-faceted.

Another primary reason is that the overall effect of oral opium is far longer than the effects of heroin. Noticeable effects of opium can last well over 24 hours from a single dose. I don't think you'll get that kind of mileage out of heroin, even a large oral dose.

It's true that the WD from IV heroin use will come on much faster and possibly be a little more intense in some ways than oral opium, but in general, opium WD will include more symptoms and last much longer, making it subjectively worse in most cases. A visit to the recovery board of poppies.org will easily confirm this to anyone skeptical.

As for the recreational value of heroin versus opium, personally I'd rather be high for a solid day with absolutely no possibility of death or disease than have the extremely short and potentially dangerous IV heroin, even if the initial effect of the IV is more intense.

If you compare only oral opium with oral heroin at equipotent amounts, the subjective effects of opium will typically be more pleasurable and last longer, the result of the many alkaloids of the opium. Unfortunately, oral opium will also be more addictive than oral heroin for that same reason.

[Sitar]

By the way, the book by Jim Hogshire, "Opium For The Masses" is a book I consider to be pure evil. With his lush, romantic descriptions of the effects of opium as a total panacea, flushing away all pain and anguish from life yet leaving you with a zest for life before unknown, it becomes difficult to resist fantasizing about trying opium.

And this effect is further worsened by Hogshire's claim that opium withdrawal, even from an extensive addiction, is nothing more than a couple days of mild flu-like symptoms. Oh, if only that were true. Life would be a dream, sweetheart.

While ultimately my life is the result of my choices, that damned book is largely responsible for one very damaging decision: to try opiates. I wish I'd never bought that book.

[HistoryofMadness]

I think we should make PK one of our resident chemists!:)

Google monkeys don't qualify as chemists! Haha I know pk will have something nice to say in return... seriously though pk, I know you have a very vast knowledge base of chemistry / pharmacology, probably as much as someone could have for being self-taught. . . Are you just a chemist at heart or do you have some professional / educational training?

Just curious, hope you didn't take that as an insult, it certainly was not meant to be one!

[Paregoric Kid]

all self taught. who needs a degree when you've got books, google, and pubmed? might go to college someday. wish I knew more.

[slugbone]

wow, thanks for the post PK, that is some goddamn good information there.