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View Full Version : From methadone to Suboxone- Court Ordered! PLEASE HELP!



Cobb
02-18-2010, 12:32 AM
Basically--

I've gotten very unlucky and have been "court-ordered" to stop taking methadone and switch over to Suboxone. Basically, what happened was I got a DUI. One day I was over at my girlfriends house and accidentally hit her fence- knocking my front bumper off. I got mad and went home- thinking the amount of gas I had would get me there. In fact, the amount of gas I had got me close- about 2 minutes away from home. Instead, I ran out of gas in the median with the ass-end of my car hanging out. I pulled the keys out and called home. Five minutes later a cop pulls up. First thing he says- "how much have you been drinking tonight?" Not "hello, ect..". It's major bullshit. I passed the field-sobriety and the breathalyzer. Then, he made me take a piss test. The night of the accident he searched my car and found my take-home box. Ask me if there was anything inside and I told him. Well, anyways- he wrote that on my file.

I went to court today. The urine test wasn't back but the Judge grilled me for being young and on MMT. Even though I'm prescribed he's making me get off of it and shit considering I can't do PTI. He says I have a drug-history.

Well, I spoke to the mediator for court and he was an ex-opiate addict. He got me a deal- I go to Suboxone Program from Methadone or I serve jail time. He even set me up my first Suboxone appointment for tomorrow at 11:45

My main concern:

At 6:30 a.m I will be 24 hours clean of methadone. I've been on it for a year. I don't want to go into PRECEPTIVE WITHDRAWAL. I spoke to the mediator about this but told me that PRECEPTIVE WITHDRAWAL doesn't occur and that it was bullshit. Told me I could go and start Suboxone tomorrow and be fine. I've read so much shit on the internet saying not to go straight from methadone to Suboxone. I'm scared. I don't want to do it because I don't want to go into perceptive withdrawal but then again- I don't have the funds to go against the court and I'm gonna have to do it.

My questions after you read this:

1. I understand that I will get Preceptive Withdrawal if I start Suboxone tommorow after 1 year on 70mg's of methadone after my last methadone dose was 31 hours before-hand.

2. Is there any way that I can talk the doctor into putting me onto subutex instead of Suboxone? Can a doctor that's licensed to give out Suboxone also give out subutex? I realize that an 8 hour course to get a licenses just isn't much imo.

3. If Subutex is not reasonable- is it possible that I get on it for the first few days starting tomorrow and then switch over to suboxone. I've heard some doctors will do this. Is Subutex not handed out long term? As in 30 day scripts?

4. How fucked am I? The dude already made sure I'm going to a certain doctor. Said he's an Indian and a good doctor but very hard to understand (language wise). I feel like he's going to be so hard to understand- I wont have a chance of explaining Preceptive withdrawal and the safe switch from methadone to Suboxone.

5. If all goes bad- I do take suboxone and go into preceptive withdrawal it will be over after 12 hours right? At that point, can I take the suboxone and feel okay? Am I too anxious- very scared here! Please help!!

Narkotikon
02-18-2010, 12:57 AM
Basically, what I would do, is find a really good attorney and / or methadone advocate and FIGHT LIKE HELL. Who is some judge, who doesn't know your past, or whatever, or your progress on methadone, to tell you to get off of it. The only reason he's doing it is b/c of the negative connotations with methadone.

Secondly, I would NOT take Suboxone tomorrow, or Subutex. It's not the Narcan in the Suboxone that's going to cause precipitated w/d, it's the buprenorphine itself. It just has such a high binding rate, and since it's only a partial-agonist, what it's going to do is displace whatever methadone is left on your receptors, and fill it with bupe, which will probably put you into precipitated w/d because you're used to a full agonist like methadone, not bupe.

Any Sub doctor worth their salt would know that. Usually, when switching from Methadone Maintenance to Sub Maintenance, they make you wait longer before they start you on Subs (i.e., more than 24 hours, especially since you've been on it for a year) and / or even switch you from methadone to a shorter-acting full agonist for a few days, like an equivalent dose of oxy or morphine, THEN when the methadone is out of your system and you go into w/d from not taking your oxy or morphine or whatever, THEN they'll induct you into Suboxone / give you Subs.

I mean, I really would fight this. This whole thing sounds like the cop stopped you b/c you had a stopped car in the median, and a broken car too, and when he found your take-home lockbox, he ran with it. Just b/c you're on MMT doesn't mean you can't drive a car.

Anyway, I say fight this because 1.) it's unfair and seems very biased to me; and 2.) if you're doing well on methadone, you may very well not do well on Subs, and who are they to tell you what valid treatment choice you take? It's either jail or Subs? That's really fucked.

Get a good lawyer / mediator and find a methadone advocate. Seriously.

Edit:

Seriously, fire your current mediator. They DO NOT know what they're talking about. First of all, Precipitated Withdrawal IS real, even the makers of Suboxone and Subutex admit that. And secondly, like I said, YOU DO need to wait more than 24 hours before taking Suboxone OR Subutex OR any type of buprenorphine (Temgesic / Buprenex) if you've been on methadone for any period of time. Your mediator is stupid and doesn't know the fuck what they're talking about basically.

Edit Again:

Can you contact your methadone clinic / counselor and let them know what is going on. Surely they'd be able to help in some way. Like I said, get a methadone advocate, and DO NOT take Suboxone or Subutex tomorrow. You will need to wait at least a few days b/c of methadone's long half-life and b/c buprenorphine is only a partial-agonist.

Billy the kid
02-18-2010, 01:49 AM
This is fucked up beyond belief! Your mediator is delusional if he thinks precipitated withdrawl doesen't exist! Ive been through it and had to get rushed by ambulance to a hospital because I couldnt walk and was puking/shitting all over myself. That was after 48 hours of no methadone. FIGHT THIS! What does your clinic have to say about this? When switching to suboxone/subutex from methadone they say that you need to be below 30mg of methadone and free of any methadone for 72 hours. Man, this is so fucked up on so many levels. Isnt there some kind of appeal you can make? To say that you need to stop methadone because you have a drug history is crazy. I thought you had to have a drug history to be on methadone for maintenance. I would google NAMA methadone advocates and find an advocate ASAP! Good luck and keep us updated.

panda
02-18-2010, 02:20 AM
what the fuck kind of deal is that!!!

i know at the sub clinic i went to, they wouldn't start you out on subs if you have been on more then 30mg of done.... the doctor went as far as to right a few days of 30mg oxy ir's...

MissLow
02-18-2010, 02:33 AM
this is a terrible, horrible thing to have happen to you...
i can't imagine how this is legal, it's certainly not ethical and your in no way harming anyone, your actually helping yourself and a judge or cop have decided they don't like the treatment your on so they're going to fuck with your life...
i don't have anything to add beyond what other people have said regarding your rights and the legality of what going on, but i really really can't believe a judge is making you do this, fuck me....
whats wrong with people?

GetinLow
02-18-2010, 03:24 AM
I agree with everybody else here ... Its Bullshit ... I would start by doing a google search for the Booklet that tells Doctors and Patients how Bup Maintainance works and has a chapter on switching Methadone Patients to Bup .I ordered the Booklet for free 5 years ago and it specifically says to not start methadone patient until they are stable at 30mgs or less and wait until Patient is in WD's and to start them on Subutex [because we all know that some little amount of that Naloxone or Naltrexone can fuck with some folks ,but why risk it especially ,on a Methadone patient!} Print that fucker out and shove it down the Doctors mouth if he doesnt read it and abide by it ... If he doesnt... Sue the shithead when you start pukin and shittin all over his office LOL ! If bye chance you can't get out of it, and, you feel like there is no way out , see if you can talk the doctor into you takin a tiny piece ...like fuckin crumbs, and wait 1 1/2 hours between crumbs or run outa there !

If I can find the Booklet I will tell you more ...its called SAMHSA 40 or sumthin ? Tell us how it goes ?

............... Getinlow
ok, i found the book ... it's called.. Clinical guidelines for the use of Bup. in the treatment of opioid addiction
.... A treatment Improvement Protocol TIP 40www.samhsa.gov

Dolofinell
02-18-2010, 04:11 AM
yeah cobb thats fucked. Ive been at 130mgs for 6 yrs now. About two years ago I got so sick of
the clinic system, I weened myself (quickly!) down to 55mgs. w/ my takehome's.Stayed there about a week, Found a sub doc, told him I was at 25mg.(he didnt check any records). didnt dose the methadone for 58 hrs. Dosed the subs- instant precipitated wd- shittin and pukin all over as described above. Long to short been back on 130mgs. of 'done since. Good luck man.

Narkotikon
02-18-2010, 04:19 AM
Another think that irks me about this whole thing is why do you HAVE to go to that one doctor, the Indian one whom you said was hard to understand linguistically.

I mean, if they're going to force you on Subs, which SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED, why can't you pick your own doctor.

The short of it is this: if you allow them to dose you with Subs (either Subutex or Suboxone), YOU WILL be in precipitated w/d. I only hope that when you vomit uncontrollably (if you do allow them to dose you), that you aim at one of them. Make it look like The Exorcist with the pea soup.

Thanat0s
02-18-2010, 06:37 AM
hey COBB:
what kinda 'done dose are ya on and how long have you been on it?

nick
02-18-2010, 06:59 AM
Is this legal? Hell,if this is the law then the law truly is an ass.I wonder what experience your judge has in treating drug addiction.

I'm sorry for your troubles and I hope you work something out.

Import
02-18-2010, 07:03 AM
You cannot go from 70 mg methadone to buprenorphine. This "advocate" does not have your best interests in mind. You need a lawyer, NOW. Maybe you could try giving the ACLU a try? This judge cannot make decisions in place of a doctor.

If your doctor knows anything, he will realize that this is bullshit and will tell the courts that this is not an acceptable way to go about this.

How did they prove that being on methadone caused the accident? This is why I say, GET A LAWYER. STOP ASKING FOR ADVICE FROM US AND GET AN ATTORNEY.

Cobb
02-18-2010, 08:48 AM
Goddamn guys.

I'm going to be honest. 70mg's has always been low to me. I dose it at 11am right at closing time at the clinic. Then, I go home. If I dose too earlier- then I will be in withdrawals all night and shit. If I miss one day- by the next morning- I've been sitting online all night waiting for the clinic to open in the morning.

The judge knows very little about methadone treatment other than the stigma based around it. He says I will be dead in months on it- although I've been on it 14 months and I'm very happy. They just think it's impossible for me to have a methadone tolerance this high.

I'm so fucking scared guys. I've already missed the clinic today (i'm already in pretty nice withdrawal) I'm going to see an Indian doctor, who can barely speak, with my mother- who wants me to do it and love me/doesn't want me to go to jail. I'm so fucking scared guys, imagine your worst withdrawal ever- and multiply it times ten because I'm so stressed and scared constantly. I hope the doctor understands. If he doesn't I'm doomed. If they do give me oxy even- I won't feel it and will feel like shit all day.

For the love of god man- I have no money, my mom has very little money- the court is making me or "I'm going to jail" for a first-time DUI. The reason they are giving me a DUI is because I didn't want to fight it. They never even got the drug-test back. I'm so fucking nervous. I already want to die. Only my mother, father and sister know about me going to the methadone clinic. My grandmother, aunt(s), and dad live next door. I feel like if I go into precipitated withdrawal I will have to go to the hospital and they will all find out- plus this will be more money to pay on top of court cost.

missPopET
02-18-2010, 09:46 AM
OK--first of all, take some deep breaths. You sound like you're driving yourself absolute bonkers ATM and yes as you stated this will just make WDs worse and you'll feel like yr havin' a freakin' heart attack. So first of all: What complete bullshit. Why is the court stepping in and telling you to get off 'done? Methadone is LEGAL and considered harm reduction, so it's usually always looked upon in this manner in the court of law, i.e probation officers, judges, district attorneys, etc are usually ALL FOR one being on done, granted they're passing random UA's at the clinic. This is very strange to me to hear about this happening, and I would like to echo what another response said: You need to find an ADVOCATE, (i.e someone who has done this kind of thing before) to come speak to the judge on yr behalf. The judge needs to understand that you have been doing good for the past 14 months or however long. Bring anything you can to prove this, such as grades from school, pay stubs, etc. Second: If this doesn't work and you do have to get off done, look at it as a blessing. Just fucking go with it. Are you going to be getting UA'd while you're doing the switch? I would recommend procuring a short acting opiate to help you thru the pain that might be creeping up on yr doorstep right now. At least some xanax, or booze or somethin'. It'll help tremendously...trust me. If you can wait 48 before dosing on Suboxone, fucking DO IT! Trust me. That switch can be ungodly. And if you do feel like shit after you switch (which you prolly will) just remember the sub will start to even out in yr bloodstream as the mdone moves out. Alrighty then... good luck.

Paregoric Kid
02-18-2010, 09:58 AM
fight it, don't let the judge play doctor.

chopstix
02-18-2010, 10:45 AM
It's all already been said, but this is %100 bullshit, some of the shit I read about the court systems in the south blows my mind.

This can't be legal, you need an attorney and you need to appeal ASAP. At 48hrs, you're gonna be in a world of hurt if you take any bup, a year at 70mg is a lot. If you HAVE to take it, make sure the mediator and a witness is there so you can sue the fucking pants off these clowns for mental duress over this bullshit. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.

You're getting shafted, this is not legal, get counsel NOW.

TigerFan
02-18-2010, 12:06 PM
Wow. This is the biggest bullshit I think I have heard. And I've heard a lot of bullshit.

Cobb
02-18-2010, 12:10 PM
Shafted hard in the ass is correct, guys.

I badly want to attempt to keep this topic live and for you to follow me in it. I'm so thankful that I have this board. Everyone around me considers me a dick now (judge, mediator, ect...) because I'm being handed treatment. Especially, one that helped him- and he might think I'm not grateful. What the mediator doesn't understand is the fact that I'm thankful- but he's never taken methadone and doesn't know about perceived withdrawal.

Now-- like I said if I do go MIA- two things have either happened. A. I'm so goddamn sick that I can't get to a computer. B. I'm so goddamn sick that I've killed myself and/or I'm dead. C. I'm in jail. Given that I don't die from this- which I doubt I will- I'll be back to discuss this.

I went to the doctor's office today. First of all, I failed the test for marijuana which sucked because he has the right to say no right then and there he said. But he isn't and I haven't smoked weed in around nearly two weeks. He gave me the assessment sheet for withdrawal. I was assessed in moderate withdrawal as well. I got either a 17 or 18 on the scale. He talked to me and told me that perceived withdrawal is possible. He told me to wait it out until tomorrow and be there at either 8 or 9 a.m. That will put me at 50 hours instead of 24. I was hoping to do it later in the day so I could feel even more shitty but they like to close early on Fridays. I'm not sure if they are open Saturday but they aren't Sunday. I was thinking if I could make it tonight and didn't kill myself- that I could try to make it in on Saturday to take the first suboxone pill. Hopefully, they won't be closed- but to be honest I don't know if I can wait that long. I'm very nervous. Withdrawal isn't full blown but I've got an unusual feeling today. My back is in non-stop pain.

Keep in mind at 70mg's that I'm already slightly sick before I go to dose in the A.M. Very slightly.

So- I guess I will take my first does at 50 hours. Hope to god it can't get too much worse. He prescribed me phenegran and clonodine. Please keep replies coming.

I want to fight it but it's kinda like I'm fucked- like I've already went to court and got a mediator and if I don't at-least try this it will make me look bad. I just hope I don't get too sick if it does put me into withdrawal.

He seems to think if it does make me go into withdrawal he can give me enough to make me feel pleasant but then again- I'm going to have to take clonodine, and phengran an hour before I go at like 7 am so I bet I'll feel tired and sedated all day!

Please help!

at&t
02-18-2010, 12:52 PM
Holy HELL. Just saw this thread...

(going back to read the actual posts in the thread first, but... WTF !!!!!!!!!!!!!! MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!!!!!! ETC <expletives deleted.>)

briefly-- best thing to do is get 1000 dollars. pay 500 for suboxone intake for 10 days from now. then pay 500 to heroin dealer to stay well for 10 days (VERY optimistic, depending on how high your mdone dose is... But you don't need to stay VERY well, just stay.... I don't know... just stay at the point where you find yourself always constantly on the VERGE of throwing yourself off a building, without actually going and doing it.)

ok... I'm back from reading most of the replies....

1. at 70mg, YOU *ARE* likely to be thrown into precipitated withdrawal if you dose before being off of methadone for like 5 (or 3 or 2 or 7 or whatever; it varies) days. I don't want to frighten you, but... (I've never used bupe. I'm terrified of that shit. from what the consensus seems to be,) If you do get thrown into pwd, it sounds VERY dubious that this doctor would be able to help you out of precipitated wd by simply giving you More Suboxone...

2. For safety/comfort/'and avoiding unnecessary pwd' reasons, They (Doctors. The kind with Medical Degrees and not Law Degrees) ***NEVER*** send people to suboxone until they are 1. Down to AT LEAST 30mg of methadone, 2. Have had at least a few days/72+hrs off of 30mg methadone, 3. And score pretty high on the "COWS" withdrawal scale.

3. IF I were you, I would........ ask to speak with the doctor from your methadone clinic. I would call them right now, and tell them that its an emergency, and that you need his office/home/cell number. I would see if 1. HE, and 2. X number of other doctors... couldn't talk some sense into your "Mediator," who, in turn, having been educated about the procedure of Switching from Methadone to Suboxone, could talk to the judge again on your behalf...

4. Anyway. I was just going to send you a VM to ask where you've been.... Hm... Really sorry to hear about all this shit... Un Motherfucking Believable... Pardon my language... but... Holy fcking hell etc <more expletives deleted> I'm sorry. What does one say to something like this...



5. This is crazy fucked up though.... -- and btw, hey... Listen to this though... (Mainly for our European friends who ask "What? Can they really do this there? Is what this sadistic insane ignorant judge/cop/system doing somehow legal?")

Here in this state (new mexico,) a couple of months ago... (just before Christmas.) There was a guy who happened to be driving out of his hometown (Albuquerque) for work.
Methadone laws here are determined State by State. (Some states don't allow methadone clinics, some have crazy undue restrictions on them, and some are ok with them.)
Within the state, however, there are various Counties. Outside of city limits, when someone gets pulled over for... a broken taillight, speeding, random unjustified traffic stop, etc, they will find themselves in the jurisdiction of that County's court..

Anyway, this guy from our clinic was driving down the road on his way back home. He gets pulled over. I don't know why. Maybe he was speeding. We all speed sometimes.
When the cop who pulled him over asked about the contents of the Little Black Lock Box in the passenger seat, the guy didn't imagine that anything bad would happen to him, and just went ahead and casually answered that "Oh... That's my methadone."

Immediate "DUI" in "whatever-the-fuck middle-of-nowhere New-Mexico" County. The judge sentences him to jail for a month to "dry out." after a month, he comes back to the stand, and the judge asks him how he feels... The guy can't believe it... and again speaks without thinking. Something like "I feel HORRIBLE, Your Honor. I am sick like I wouldn't have believed possible."

So.... <and wait for it...> the judge thinks of some reason to hold him in county jail for another month.

WTF does one even say to this? I mean... the clinic's personnel were driving down there to testify in court, as were one or two local doctors. I think that NAMA was aware of the case, but.......

I feel the same way about your case Cobb... WHAT in HELL do you say to this? Its just...... one is truly at a loss for words... You throw up your hands and say "WHAT?"

Take care, Cobb... Let me know if I can...... (and I throw up my hands in frustration and exasperation... but what CAN I do?) let me know if I can help in any way....

maybe call NAMA? a few local doctors one by one from the phonebook? etc?

at&t
02-18-2010, 02:17 PM
Wow... Sounds like its a done deal, doesn't it...... Unless you get the place to reschedule you, or...... weasel your way out of it somehow, or....... think of SOMETHING -- (like, I need to seek treatment through this other guy, or... (etc, etc...))

Unless there is a miracle or something.. FFS.
Anyway, you might well be ok. maybe.... I don't know. anyone else?

1. Just walk in there tomorrow morning telling yourself over and over that "I will be fine. I'm sick to hell now, and THAT is all that is Really needed for Subs to work! I will take the sub, and then take a deep breath, relax, and be suddenly well. Subs will work OK for me! Almost as well as methadone."

2. Either that or skip town!!, and run to the nearest laborhall a couple of states over.

3. Or use the remaining few hours of the day to do SOMETHING to delay the sub intake, get some short acting opioids from a sympathetic doctor and hole up for a few days....

4. Or... I don't know.... anyway, Don't go on the lam, and don't kill yourself... You will be ok in the end. You will make it through this..... 21 or 23 or whatever years old, and you get THIS cruel and unusual punishment handed down to you just for RUNNING OUT OF GAS! Life is GREAT, isn't it.....

SOME people would have just helped you push your car to the nearest parking lot/gas station... but not a cop.....

FFS. at&t

limitless_euphoria
02-18-2010, 02:25 PM
I think you should be entitled to an appeal. I do not see how a court can order your treatment. I'm sure you're not rich (well, I'm guessing) but if you get the right attorney that feels passionate about your case you could probably fight it. Are you willing to try subs? It sounds like you'll have to for the meantime but if they do not cut it I'd fight tooth-and-nail to get my methadone back. Fuck the legal system telling you what you shouldn't take. That ought to be strictly between you and medical professionals. I think you've got a pretty good case. But a) if the subs do work maybe it's a blessing in disguise, b) if they don't work and you can find a lawyer or even go pro se (self-represented) and do your homework you can try to appeal the case. If I were you I would be EXTREMELY pissed off at the system. You're trying to do the right thing and stay clean and they should have no say in what legally-prescribed drugs you use to do so.

P.S. As for finding an attorney, I'm sure there are PLENTY that go to AA/NA that are in recovery that would feel passionate enough to take you on for free or on a sliding-scale. That is, if you are not happy with the subs. As I said, if they work out, good. If not, I'd fight those fuckers to the death. This would be a horrible precedent to set.

Cobb
02-18-2010, 02:55 PM
All my hope is gone guys. I'm so deadly ill that it's not imaginable. I'm scared to death of what will occur. I can barely type. Don't know why but my back is hurting so bad that I can barely move. It's going to be hell waiting until 8 am. Like at&t said- I'm going to keep a posotive attitude- hope the subs work. I should be out in time to go get methadone and takehomes. But if I take my face-dose then I'll be sick- but it i don't go then I can't get any methadone until Monday given that it doesn't work.

Goddamn it, I'm in so much pain. I know you've all got my back- but it's hard to be in withdrawal like this with no light at the end of the tunnel. Please god help!!!

Dolofinell
02-18-2010, 03:25 PM
Hang in there bud, I know how yer feelin( I ct'd of 130 in jail - no comfort meds).
I know its hard but stay positive, just keep in yer mind that you have another
strong opie in buprenorphine comin soon. I feel for ya man the courts are bullshit,
forcing someone off of a life changing med thats completely legal and workin
for em. Good luck bro , keep your head up.

OpiateQueen
02-18-2010, 04:00 PM
What the mediator doesn't understand is the fact that I'm thankful- but he's never taken methadone and doesn't know about perceived withdrawal.

Please help!


Its PRECIPITATED withdrawl, not perceived, it's very very real unfortunately. The times I've had it happen to me i was in foetal position, kicking, thrashing, speaking gibberish...... It was one of the worsts experiences of my life. And more bupe doesn't/didn't help.
BUT it only lasted about 12 hours, then all of a sudden i was ok. Still felt like shit but NOTHING like the hours esrlier.

I just can't believe this is actually happening in a civilised country. it seems so unreal. 70mg isn't even what i'd call a big dose. And its prescribed maintenance program..... Is there something missing in this story???

chopstix
02-18-2010, 04:17 PM
Cobb, trust me on this one: I used to use Suboxone/Subutex a lot in conjunction with heroin and oxy. If possible, try and get your hands on a short acting opiate, due to the pharmacology and mechanisms behind subs, once you have it in your system, you can use on top of it with no ill affect, and if you're under a "blocking" dose (usually >4mg, so don't take more than 2mg at a time until you're "stable" on the bup), you can STOP precipitated withdrawal by using another opiate/opioid if you go into withdrawal, and you don't need much and you'll only have to dose once. This trick works like a charm, and I used to do it a lot to induct myself back onto bup without having to wait until I was sick. Take the bup and make sure it's ALL in your system, be sick as fuck for a few minutes, do a bump and you're good for 18-24hrs when you re-dose with sub.

You may not feel %100 for a couple days even after induction, the first time I used bup it was 2-3 days before I felt truly well. But I guarantee the above technique works for fast, PW free induction onto suboxone.

After that, sue the bastards, this is not legal.

Duckfeet
02-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Precipitated withdrawals coming off methadone are very real, and can get you sick as a dog. They usually seem less likely when coming off short acting opiates, which is why the pay-to-play private clinics with any compassion, usually switch you to oxys or something for a week, before getting on subs, if you have a serious methadone habit...so hang in there, you'll feel better once you dose, and if it's any comfort, just like with methadone: the sicker you are, the better you feel it...since there is no real rush with either of these drugs: the high is simply the "getting better," which any real junky knows is huge, but the public can never understand, clasically wondering why we "just do drugs that make us feel 'better.'" when you're sick and life is hateful, there is nothing better than 'getting well,' and many of us have sacrificed much just for that feeling.

I myself have never experimented with the attempts to not just 'kick' before starting subs...the usual is 24 hrs for short acting opiates and 48 hrs for mdone....my own attitude, and what docs look for, is just that you are in withdrawals...the time frame really is arbitrary...but nothing to play with...imho

Best wishes.

at&t
02-18-2010, 05:35 PM
Chopstix has a good point.... [edit: and look, man! While I was posting, Prof. Duckfeet has come out of hiding just to tell you that he himself has previously gotten away with a mere 48 hours off of 'done before dosing subs! This is the best omen of success you could possibly ask for!]

Anyway, good luck!!! It Might Well Maybe Probably Work Fine! Its going to be a miserable anxious terrible next 15 hours either way, BUT....... By 9am tomorrow, you will have dosed and are likely to be maybe/probably feeling a bit/whole lot better.

I hope so very much man..... It might just hopefully work out fine..... (BUT failing that, It ALSO might work to where you're NOT thrown into PWD, but rather just 50% sick and 50% well for a few days... Which, I guess is doable....)

Again... What a life....

Take care, good luck, and as it seems to be completely out of your hands now, just... You know... don't worry too much... -- [Prof. Duckfeet has evidently even done it by the exact schedule that they propose to put you through... It'll work out ok afterall.]
AND EVEN IF it turns out to be a worst case scenario, you can still do that thing that Chopstix suggested, and be well all weekend, and gradually ween yourself into the subs the way some of our more expert "Constantly going back and forth on subs and junk" people here do...

Best of luck sir, and check back in whenever you can. at&t

D Man
02-18-2010, 06:52 PM
Hey Cobb,

As a fellow South Carolinian and opiophile, I wish you the best...

missPopET
02-18-2010, 07:20 PM
All my hope is gone guys. I'm so deadly ill that it's not imaginable. I'm scared to death of what will occur. I can barely type. Don't know why but my back is hurting so bad that I can barely move. It's going to be hell waiting until 8 am. Like at&t said- I'm going to keep a posotive attitude- hope the subs work. I should be out in time to go get methadone and takehomes. But if I take my face-dose then I'll be sick- but it i don't go then I can't get any methadone until Monday given that it doesn't work.

Goddamn it, I'm in so much pain. I know you've all got my back- but it's hard to be in withdrawal like this with no light at the end of the tunnel. Please god help!!!

Dude, if you hurt that bad...go to the hospital. Or go cop...or get some comfort meds...SOMETHING. No need to put yourself thru the wringer like this :(

Duckfeet
02-18-2010, 07:32 PM
All the local sub doc wanted was that I "be in withdrawals" ... the time frame, or how sick you have to be, varies from person to person, doctor to doctor...everything I've learned about subs, and precipitated withdrawals, means that this is true, that if you *aren't* in withdrawals, subs will kick you into them...clinics, and docs, often operate on the theory that junkies will usually, lie, so they attempt to compensate with overkill...just don't lie to *yourself* to speed up the process: if you're sick, you're sick...and subs will get you well...no worries...get up early, go dose, you'll be done with this madness...

kill
02-18-2010, 10:00 PM
Cobb, trust me on this one: I used to use Suboxone/Subutex a lot in conjunction with heroin and oxy. If possible, try and get your hands on a short acting opiate, due to the pharmacology and mechanisms behind subs, once you have it in your system, you can use on top of it with no ill affect, and if you're under a "blocking" dose (usually >4mg, so don't take more than 2mg at a time until you're "stable" on the bup), you can STOP precipitated withdrawal by using another opiate/opioid if you go into withdrawal, and you don't need much and you'll only have to dose once. This trick works like a charm, and I used to do it a lot to induct myself back onto bup without having to wait until I was sick. Take the bup and make sure it's ALL in your system, be sick as fuck for a few minutes, do a bump and you're good for 18-24hrs when you re-dose with sub.

You may not feel %100 for a couple days even after induction, the first time I used bup it was 2-3 days before I felt truly well. But I guarantee the above technique works for fast, PW free induction onto suboxone.

After that, sue the bastards, this is not legal.


best advice i've seen..i do this myself..but i've never attempted to go from mdone to sub's..just short acting opies..

seriously bro try to get through this and then afterwards sue the mother fuck outa these people...i did work for a lawyer in nj that took cases like this...this one client he had was all fucked up from a really bad accident..he got pulled over and the cop made him do a field sobriety test when the guy can barely walk because of the accident..he started asking the guy to do these crazy ass tests like the alphabet backwards starting from a random letter..like some of the tests i couldn't even do 100% fucking sober it was ridiculous..i know this because i seen the video the lawyer got from inside the cops car when he pulled the client over..dood it was some fucked up shit this cop was doing to this guy....anyway the lawyer was passionate about it and was going for fucking blood...the guy got acquited AND got some crazy settlement cuz the cop was basically just fucking with him and wouldn't listen to what the guy was trying to say...

get through this..do whatever you can....then..find a lawyer..call every single one you can and explain your story...you'll eventually get one who'll make sure you and your mom arn't poor anymore....some asshole judge who doesn' thave a medical degree is trying to make medical choices FOR YOU....you weren't even fucking drunk and you passed the sobriety tests..thats bullshit sue the fuck outa them..you should definitely win..straight up i'd fucking borrow money to sue these fucks..the payout could be huge for the cruel and unusual suffering your going through..and that judge has no right to play doctor...period..fucking law degree's don't equal medical degree's...fucking retard judge

OpiateQueen
02-18-2010, 11:39 PM
All my hope is gone guys. I'm so deadly ill that it's not imaginable. I'm scared to death of what will occur. I can barely type. Don't know why but my back is hurting so bad that I can barely move. It's going to be hell waiting until 8 am. Like at&t said- I'm going to keep a posotive attitude- hope the subs work. I should be out in time to go get methadone and takehomes. But if I take my face-dose then I'll be sick- but it i don't go then I can't get any methadone until Monday given that it doesn't work.

Goddamn it, I'm in so much pain. I know you've all got my back- but it's hard to be in withdrawal like this with no light at the end of the tunnel. Please god help!!!
so you're still gonna be taking your methadone as well?!? WTF?!

at&t
02-19-2010, 05:00 PM
Yo Cobb....... What is the word?

I feel really bad about (even further) freaking out/terrifying the poor guy with my overly pessimistic/ overly panicked posts... I would imagine that he was probably already plenty anxious enough without my help going "Oh no, man, you're doomed! How are you going to get out of this?" etc...

Were it me, Hell.. I'm terrified of subs and pwds. I would have been fighting tooth and nail to get out of it. It was too late by the time that he posted, But depending on whatever jurisdiction he happened to be in, had he been able to act sooner, there were at least a couple of things that could have been TRIED.

Anyway, I wish I could have gone back to yesterday and posted (more or less) what old man Duckfeet posted... "You'll be ok... This too shall pass... You'll be miserable for a while, go in to the doctors office, dose and then suddenly either be MORE or LESS miserable... But either way you'll get through it... Its been done before-- (and even sometimes done successfully without pwd before.)" etc...

Poor guy..... Hope he's ok.... Check in cobb, and let us know how it went at the doc's office this morning..... Worried about ya'..... :(

at&t

edarrin
02-19-2010, 06:01 PM
Any Sub doctor worth their salt would know that. Usually, when switching from Methadone Maintenance to Sub Maintenance, they make you wait longer before they start you on Subs (i.e., more than 24 hours, especially since you've been on it for a year) and / or even switch you from methadone to a shorter-acting full agonist for a few days, like an equivalent dose of oxy or morphine, THEN when the methadone is out of your system and you go into w/d from not taking your oxy or morphine or whatever, THEN they'll induct you into Suboxone / give you Subs.


I don't think any doc would actually do that. That would be grounds for malpractice. At least here in Canada.


You can't prescribe something you know is going to harm the patient. Ignorance doesn't hold up in court as a credible defense. Then he should have referred you to someone who did know how to handle the situation. That's what the regulatory colleges are for. To regulate the doctors and protect the public from goofballs like that.

OpiateQueen
02-19-2010, 06:14 PM
Any Sub doctor worth their salt would know that. Usually, when switching from Methadone Maintenance to Sub Maintenance, they make you wait longer before they start you on Subs (i.e., more than 24 hours, especially since you've been on it for a year) and / or even switch you from methadone to a shorter-acting full agonist for a few days, like an equivalent dose of oxy or morphine, THEN when the methadone is out of your system and you go into w/d from not taking your oxy or morphine or whatever, THEN they'll induct you into Suboxone / give you Subs.


I don't think any doc would actually do that. That would be grounds for malpractice. At least here in Canada.


You can't prescribe something you know is going to harm the patient. Ignorance doesn't hold up in court as a credible defense. Then he should have referred you to someone who did know how to handle the situation. That's what the regulatory colleges are for. To regulate the doctors and protect the public from goofballs like that.
i agree. like i said - i can't believe this has actually happened. Here when they swap u from methdone to bupe (if YOU want to) you go right down to like 20mg of done or less.... then usually go into a detox type facaility and they aasess you every few hours for wds and then when it gets pretty bad they start you on tiny amounts of bupe, then see how it goes, and work upwards etc with time...

I still don't understand your picking up of methadone as well...??? what is the go? they are still letting you be on methadone too?? sounds like a real shambles...

limitless_euphoria
02-19-2010, 07:13 PM
Totally O/T but I must know, WTF is with the quotes with the horizontal scrollbars?

Paregoric Kid
02-19-2010, 07:36 PM
you really need to seek a lawyer or some kind of organization that will advocate for you pro-bono. this judge is nuts and should be forbidden from playing doctor. perhaps you can seek an injunction from a higher court against that judges orders. aside from stopping his orders you may also be able to sue the judge or the city/county/state for damages. please go get legal help. search around, you may even be able to find an organization with powerful attorneys who would take on your case pro-bono (free).

sexualhealing
02-19-2010, 08:26 PM
this is fucking WRONG.

I think chop has TOLD you how the hell to manage this, WORST CASE secneiro, as i have done the same when switching back to bupe and while its not 100% great feeling, its A LOT BETTER than a straight switch to bupe.



NOW, I know you said money is tight, but u need to get into contact with some of the said organziations and advocates for methadone as what is being done to you is HIGHLY ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL.


This judge, seriously, deserves to die.


Now I know you did what u did to keep things going smooth and got fucked in the ASS. When doing this, you have most likely signed away any right to appeal as it seems like maybe a plea deal was made?

There are very few ways to get out of a plea deal and this would require a very very very GOOD lawyer who will be costly. BUT, it may be possible to find one and also tack on a lawsuit to both the judge, the mediator, and the doctor for putting you through this hell.

This may make it easier to find a lawyer to go pro-bono for you and possibly work out a deal if u get paid lawsuit wise, he gets a cut.


Like from my expierence in the courts....too many times to count..... a plea can be rescendied for only certain reasons, but a MAJOR one of them was that you were MISLEAD into what exactly was going to happen.


YOU WERE NOT EVEN DUI FOR FUCKS SAKE MAN!

Do you know how many people take methadone or any other fucking opiod BY PERSCRIPTION and drive every fucking day. I would bet that damn cop AND judge have both drove a car on vicodin or percs at LEAST ONCE IN THEIR LIFE.


NOW DOES THAT CONSITUTE A DUI?????


man im soooo fucking infuriated, myself having a suspended liscense for 18months and 24 months of probation due to a "DUI" where no alcohol was involved nor was any drug test ever done. SHIT NO BAC TEST WAS DONE.


This has happened to me twice, once under the limit and still charged, and second i fucking ran from the cops because i did have other things on me that would have been instant felony and i figured id cut my losses and RUN FROM THE FUCKERS.

HIGH speed chase later and having a statewide manhunt for me, i found a lawyer who cost me litterly a YEARS PAY (and i have a damn good job), and was able to plea out to 5 gay ass charges which half are the same fucking thing!!!


DUI/FLEEING & ELUDING/ESCAPE/CARELESS DRIVING/WRECKLESS DRIVING


so this whole case touches very close to home for me and i want to offer my help in any way shape or form, so please let me know if u need anything man.


I couldnt imagine if i was told to stop taking my fucking SUBS when sentenced!!!!! I took one for the team with all my charges, but i managed to avoid jail and any felonies where had they tazed or shot me (he was reaching for something on his belt when I ran and left him spinning in a 360 STUNNED i had the balls to go) and even did a double take RIGHT as his backup arrived.

Out of his jurisdiction to boot.

But had i stayed, having 2 bundles on me and 4 seperately bagged 8 balls of yay, and a qp of some BOMB bud would not have gone over very well......


but now i know when i can drive, i will always be harassed and given the sobreity test bull shit..... its like a lifetime of shit from 5-0.....


my god man, my prayers are with you.....

i dont think i ever shared my reasons im on probation to anyone on this board but this situation INFURIATES ME so badly that i felt it appropriate to show my disdain and HATERED for these asshole cops and judges, but also the value of a good lawyer, as i was looking at 2 to 7 fucking years in STATE PRISON for my charges.

had 3 plea deals that got taken away because either the cop called and bitched, the head da didnt approve, etc etc.... day in court to plea, i had a JAIL SENTENCE RECOMENDED by my po whom never called me back despite me and my lawyer calling like 5 times and leaving messages to call me so i could meet him beforehand!!!! YET MY DEAL WAS NO JAIL ONLY LONG SUPERVISED PROBATION, HIGH FINES, NO FELONY, PLEA TO ALL CHARGES SO I HAD A PERMANAT RECORD.


I HATE THE FUCKING SYSTEM.



good luck man...... good luck......



fight the fuck outta this.


seriously.

Cobb
02-23-2010, 01:25 PM
< Boom... & I'm back like that...>

What's good Opiophiles?

First and foremost, I'd like to say two words: thank you. Thank you for being there and sending me all these replies and information. You guys have given me more support than I ever could have imagined. If it wasn't for the support of you and my mother I would have never been able to where I am right now. So, I would like to thank you all. You guys mean a lot to me and I hope to be able to give you the courage, help, and support that you've gave to me one day when you need it.

The Methadone to Buprenorphine Switch


Wednesday. February 17, 2010-
Was the day of court. I went to court sat around a long time and then got severely embarrassed in front of the courtroom as the judge picked on me for being on methadone maintenance. One of the first things he said was "What medications are you currently on?" I replied "Dolophine"- thinking that this would be less embarrassing/somehow get around the stigma. Then, he kept poking and proding me with more questions and verbal attacks. Finally, he ask- "Why don't you go ahead and tell me what it's really called?" I looked down and muttered "methadone". The whole fucking court-room- even the prisoners awaiting judgment for beating their wives and kids gasp at the deadly words. The Judge then called my mother- and remember I'm a man now and my mother doesn't handle my shit- but he called my mother up there and told her I had problems and all this shit. Then, sent me to talk to a mediator who told me I was going to either A) switch to the Suboxone treatment program or B) go to jail. I took my spanking and ran- due to no money, attorney, ect... The mediator made a appointment for me to see the Suboxone doctor the next day at 11:45a.m.

As you are all aware of I came here and talked to you. At this point I was scared, nervous, tired, frustrated, angry, and simply mad at the world.

Thursday- February 18, 2010-
I couldn't really sleep the night of the 17th at all. Around 3:00p.m. my dose of 70ng's of Methadone was wearing off. I began to feel slight restlessness in my legs (the worst part of withdrawal for me). So, I was pretty much up all fucking night. I muscled it out until 11:45 when I when my mother picked me up to go to the doctor. I was given the COW assessment and got either an 17 or 18- I'm not exactly sure. The doctor decided that I should come in the next day.

About two hours after I left the doctor I got a symptom of withdrawal I haven't gotten in years... back-pain. Bad, terrible, unbearable, I'd rather die than live like this, back-pain. I rubbed some icy-hot on my back and then put a hot-pad on my back. My back was so bad I couldn't even sit up to watch TV. Even when I would lay down it hurt. I wanted to die it hurt to bad but not other withdrawal seemed to bother me. The back-pain lasted from roughly 1pm- 7pm. Around 6:46 I put a prescription ointment called "Valterian Gel" on my back and took a 20mg Prednisone pill. Fifteen minutes after the gel and pill- my back-pain siezed. I don't know if this was coincidence or if the pill/gel worked.

At 10pm... I had mediocre restless legs/arms. My mother gave me (1) 0.1mg Clonidine pill and (1) 25mg Promethazine Pill- as the doctor prescribed. I actually got a few hours of sleep.

Friday- February 19, 2010-
I was awakened by my mothers alarm clock in the next room. When I woke up I felt depressed, hopeless, and my arms and legs had went up a few points in restlessness. I was angry as fuck and felt cheated. We got to the doctors office at 8a.m. The doctor assessed the COWS sheet and put me down as a 26. I was then administered my first 4mg Suboxone pill. He came in 20 minutes later and I still felt the same. He gave me another 4mg's and came back 20 minutes later- I felt the same. He gave me 10 more pills- and told me to come back Monday to assess how I felt and to decide my milligram dosage.

At around 10:00a.m- it hit me. PRECIPITATED WITHDRAWALS. It was THE MOTHERFUCKER of all MOTHERFUCKERS. It was terrible I felt symptoms of withdrawal that I've never felt. My skin felt like I was on Ecstacy or something- it was so sensitive to touch that it hurt for my mother to touch my skin. My eyes were blurry and when I looked at something it went double, the restless-legs and arms were the worse that I've ever felt them in my entire life. Every fucking second seemed to be an hour. I remember looking at the clock and it being 11a.m. Then looking back at what seemed like 30 minutes and it was just 11:04a.m. I was terrible man. I was going to take a hot bath every 15 minutes to calm myself. Finally, I got tired of even moving and kept twitching around in my bed moaning like a dying animal. I took another Suboxone. The precipitated withdrawal ended at around 8pm. I took a Clonidine, half a Suboxone, and Promethazine and slept most of the night somehow.

Saturday- February 20, 2010-
I still felt like shit. I felt like death in boot-camp. I wanted to blow my brains out. The restless legs were still bad and I still couldn't see right. I kept taking Suboxone and my other meds and managed to sleep 2-3 hours that day and a good bit of the night.

Sunday- February 21, 2010-
I felt better- but I still felt sick. I laid in the bed until about 12pm. Then, I was able to get up and sit comfortable on the couch and cat with my family. I felt like shit still. No lies about it- I still didn't feel right. That night I took a clonidine, my subxone twice and my Promethazine. This night I didn't sleep very well either.

Monday- February 22, 2010-
I woke up at 7:30a.m and hit the doctors office. We (my mom and I) decided to go with 2 pills a day seeing as how we are on a limited income. This morning my withdrawal was at 20 percent. I felt depressed, unhappy, and anxious.

Later in the evening after my second subutex though- I started feeling WAY, WAY, WAY better- got up and started living life. Got online, did the old shit like when I was on done. Felt pretty good actually. Ate for the first time in four days. Still had hot/cold feeling on back.

Tuesday- February 23, 2010- FINALLY THERE.
I woke up feeling a little un-well but that was just because I hadn't taken my Suboxone yet. I took my pill and I fell 100 percent normal. Even the hot/cold on my back is gone. I feel great. I got up took a shower, shaved, ate, talked to my friend. Took my friend to work- got back in my car and I'm doing damn well. I can honestly say I'm happy I made the change.

-------------------

So, there you have it. That's pretty much the gist of how shit went down. It was hard, but not impossible by any means. The only thing that made it hard was knowing I had to miss the clinic and that after four days they would terminate me and that If I was sick- I'd continue to be sick foa while because they'd cut me down to 20mg's of the done and make me re-intake for 50 bucks that I really don't have to spend.

Now, that I've switched I'm happier than fuck that I did. I have no problem with Methadone and understand that it's a very damn good helpful tool in giving addict their life back. However, now that I'm on Suboxone going to the clinic seemed to be a true hassle. When I was on methadone it never seemed to be a hassle because I was going there to get well and that was nothing but now it seems like it.

One thing about Suboxone. Methadone gave me a warm- energetic feeling for about 1 hour after I took it. I felt good for a while and then by around 5pm I was so tired that I HAD to take a nap. Well, Suboxone doesn't give you a true-warm feeling. You just know that you have a opiate in you and you feel well. It does give you the energy to go out and do thing and yes you do feel good. I like the Suboxone because it doesn't seem to make me fall asleep mid-evening. As I type this I do feel a little bit of hot/cold on my back but it's no issue-at all. I feel it will go away soon. I'm on 16mg's daily. It took me until about Monday evening to see the light at the end of the tunnel. There are many weird things on the internet about switching from Methadone to Suboxone and a lot of people saying you can't but believe me it can be done.

Once again, thank you to all the people who replied it means the world to me. A extra- big thank you to my caring friend AT&T- for being there and sending me that info about Duckfeet. I didn't read it until yesterday but it gave me an optimistic out-look.

I'm going to look over the thread here in a while and start sending some replies to people about the court situation. One girl kept asking- are you going back to methadone and going to take the Suboxone. I don't know where you got that idea, I probably wrote something in a way that mislead you. Probably the part about takehomes and thinking about trying to get them in case I got sick or something. Anyways, I met my mediator- he's a good dude. I'm happy and I'm not sick. So, I'd say as of now it's working but if anything changes- I have an honest and cynical look on thinks- so you all will known ASAP.

OpiateQueen
02-23-2010, 02:01 PM
Wow! Well Done! I'm so glad you got back to us and wrote that great account. And that you suvived! And even better you are happy and glad you changed!

I still really don't understand why they think methadone is so much worse than suboxone?! The court or state or whatever i mean.

sexualhealing
02-23-2010, 04:58 PM
very good to hear ur ok now man.....

i really think that u should have never dealt with this situation though.....


the subs def do end up being easier than going to a clinic though, in the sense of getting ur script and not seeing the doc for awhile....


good luck man!

at&t
02-23-2010, 05:02 PM
Awesome!

Glad to hear you made it through-- You coulda' checked in a little sooner, though-- to let us know you were ok! I was (and we all were, I would imagine!) worried about you.......

Great.!!.. didn't die, didn't end up jumping off a building or something...

Still a terrible fucked up thing to have to go through for no reason........ Way to have a good attitude about it, man. -- 'perspective,' and all that-- (I can certainly tell you what MY attitude would be about this sort of thing... but, well... nevermind.)

Cheers, <pours a drink irl... glad it worked out for ya'> at&t

[edit: PS. Yeah.. good post earlier, sexualhealing.... (among a number of other people's as as well, of course)....]

Cobb
02-23-2010, 05:54 PM
very good to hear ur ok now man.....

i really think that u should have never dealt with this situation though.....


the subs def do end up being easier than going to a clinic though, in the sense of getting ur script and not seeing the doc for awhile....


good luck man!

I definitely agree with you man. I was just kind of in a between a hard-place and a rock. I have a bad feeling that I might have had Xanax in my system as well that day. I sucks it was that day (because I rarely take them) because that's the day I got pissed and stopped by the cops. So, I have a feeling that I'd still get a DUI for having that show up in my piss. Now, I'm hoping since I followed their orders I can say that I used the Xanax trying to get on the Methadone because I wasn't happy with it and now the problem as a whole is done.

Pending on the drug-test- which I'm suppose to get information on soon- I'm seriously thinking about taking some type of legal action.

And as far as the Suboxone being easier- I truly agree. By the way, I wanted to say thanks to you- for sharing your story with me. It's cool that you shared that with men and gave me some insight- I really appreciate it.


Wow! Well Done! I'm so glad you got back to us and wrote that great account. And that you suvived! And even better you are happy and glad you changed!

I still really don't understand why they think methadone is so much worse than suboxone?! The court or state or whatever i mean.

No problem- I hate when the original poster ask a question about something that's happening to them and then never comes back to share what happened. I knew that I would get back here asap/as soon as possible.

I have no clue either. By the way, something kinda weird- my doctor told me that he and my judge were having dinner this week to discuss the Suboxone program and my case. Hope the man doesn't try to pull this away from me too! The state/court is basically going on stigma. The reason I feel they made a big deal is my age, the fact that I had no alcohol (so there was no case)- So, they saw I was on Methadone and tried to conclude it must have had me intoxicated. Stigma and Methadone will always be one- it sucks and it's bullshit.


Awesome!

Glad to hear you made it through-- You coulda' checked in a little sooner, though-- to let us know you were ok! I was (and we all were, I would imagine!) worried about you.......

Great.!!.. didn't die, didn't end up jumping off a building or something...

Still a terrible fucked up thing to have to go through for no reason........ Way to have a good attitude about it, man. -- 'perspective,' and all that-- (I can certainly tell you what MY attitude would be about this sort of thing... but, well... nevermind.)

Cheers, <pours a drink irl... glad it worked out for ya'> at&t

[edit: PS. Yeah.. good post earlier, sexualhealing.... (among a number of other people's as as well, of course)....]

Glad to see you reply, homie.

Sorry about not checking in sooner- I probably could have gotten here Sunday if I really tried (I was feeling shitty) and I definitely could have yesterday but I was feeling kinda "eh" so I just watched movies all day. But now I'm feeling pretty good. Kinda weird though man, it's a lot different that the good ole' done, you know? I don't get that little one hour "warm blanket glow" that I did with the done. I honest to god feel no opiate euphoria at all- I hope that is soon to change. You seemed to have hinted that Professor D. said that I will be able to feel some euphoria from it at some point? If you by some chance can contact him do you know how long he was on Methadone? What his milligram intake is? If he's ever felt any euphoria? If he's ever snorted? I have a few questions and I've looked all over the internet it's absoulte barren, no information at all.

Suck AT&T. If it wasn't for this whole DUI- my mom would have never know I was on Methadone or my sister or my dad. I miss my done. The things I miss about it: like I said that hour glow and the ability to sleep whenever the fuck I want. Haha. I've always had sleeping problems and Methadone was the cure. It's going to be hard man. I feel normal but with no cravings. Still have the hot/cold back- not as bad but annoying- hoping it goes away soon.

Got my car back today. They put a new bumper on it and painted it. Sadly, the dick-head that painted it painted it a way darker color of Silver that the orignial paint. I took it back and showed him. They are going to give the whole car a paint job- for $100. Normally $700. I'm still kinda pissed they fucked up like that though and I have to wait two weeks- ehh.

Sorry for being so long winded.

at&t
02-23-2010, 06:10 PM
> Professor D. said that I will be able to feel some euphoria from it at some point? If you by some chance can contact him do you know how long
> he was on Methadone? What his milligram intake is? If he's ever felt any euphoria? If he's ever snorted? I have a few questions and I've looked
> all over the internet it's absoulte barren, no information at all.

D'oh! Sorry... Hm... looks like I must have misspoken somewhere.....

"Prof. D--------" is just an idiotic nickname I don't know why I used for one of opiophile's members-- a pretty damn wise/clever/informative (can't find the right word. sorry.) dude here named Duckfeet. He had posted on page Two giving the first words of real unalloyed "go ahead, You'll be fine" type encouragement in the whole thread. (some/most other people (ESPECIALLY myself) were still too busy being astounded and mortified by your situation.)

His was the post saying that "PWD isn't a matter of how much time has passed, but rather just a matter of how far into REGULAR wds you find yourself at time of dosing your first sub..."



Anyway, duckfeet? I shouldn't speak for him, but... I guess that he's been on and off methadone at least a few times. Usually only for a year or so at most. He is Not presently on subs.

To answer your question-- I don't recall him OR anyone else ever mentioning ANY "euphoria" (even that useless pseudo-euphoria mild-sedation/ "warmth" that you sometimes get when your mdone dose is a little bit too high.) from subs at any dose.

Folks ("prof. D." included) have mentioned that with subs-- (being the miserable unsatisfying fake "pseudo-opiate" that they are,) it is always best to stay at as LOW a dose as you can, and that the drive (which is presumed to be inevitable in new patients) to "take two or three pills and 'see what happens,'" is even more futile than trying to "get high" or "feel a tiny bit of warmth like with mdone" than it would be with methadone or aspirin or tictacs, (for instance) etc...

So..... Yeah... Sorry... No euphoria to be had, I'm afraid-- at least that's what folks say... Me, I wouldn't know... Never tried it, and hope I never will... (which is why I won't be able to answer any of the other sub-related questions that seemed to be (sort of, indirectly) addressed to me. )
Lots of information on here though-- (using google instead of the board's search engine,) and lots of people who are glad to help.)

Well.... Anyway... Sorry for the confusion... -- Hit me up to chat on vm sometime, man! And like I said-- Really glad you wound up coming out of this thing ok... Bye for now, at&t

Count Zero
02-23-2010, 06:10 PM
Very courageous post and last few days my friend. I read the whole thread from start to finish and was really worried about you until that last post, so well done, you made it (at least through that part). I agree with previous posters, you should look into suing the fuck out of them, there has got to be a lawyer out there who thinks they put you through unreasonable pain and suffering and wants a (33%) piece of the pie.

Indy
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Wow sounds EXACTLY like me when I was on suboxone, except for me the whole process didn't take quite as long, maybe a day or two. For me, as long as I wait til I'm at least somewhat in withdrawal, the precipitated withdrawal only lasts about an hour, so if i get it i just take a shower and wait it out. Honestly for me it's less unpleasant to have precipitated withdrawal for an hour, than to go from hour 24 to hour 36 from my last dose. It's an hour of really bad withdrawal vs. 12 hours of not as bad withdrawal.

And since you sound just like me when i went on subs, I would guess that you might indeed get a little bit of "euphoria", though not nearly as much as with a real opiate. For me, for about a week or so every day i took it i kept feeling better (i'm guessing as it built up in my system) until it stabilized, where if i took my whole day's dose at once i would get a bit of a buzz. I would try and taper down to one pill if i were you, normally I can NEVER taper at all, but with suboxone i really don't notice a difference when i'm tapering down.

And I know exactly what you mean about suboxone making you feel 'opiated' but not really high. Suboxone was a good maintenance drug for me because if i take JUST enough of a regular opiate, even though I'll feel about as "high" as i do on suboxone, i'm lethargic, and feel like i'm almost in withdrawal. But with suboxone I would take my dose and feel like I was nowhere near withdrawal, even though I wasn't high.

Duckfeet
02-24-2010, 10:04 AM
Glad to hear you are doing o.k., and I guess you went through pw's after all...I guess you are a classic example of why they usually want people down to no more than 30mg daily on methadone, before they will make the transition, at clinics around here anyway. And also why they "try" really hard to get people to go 38 hrs without dosing before switiching, and yet still, every once in a while...you get bit by the bear. Part of junky life in the new world, I'm afraid. Now you know why some people are willing to fork over several thousand dollars to a private clinic who switches them to oxys for a week before the transition.

But that's yesterday's news. You're doing good, I'd kind of bone up on buprenorphene, both maintenance and detox, and it seems you need to kind of decide exactly what you want from these meds...bupe is nothing to play with, and I'd avoid trying to go any higher. As you have seen, there is no euphoria, and even the slight tingle you get at first, from 'getting well', goes away. To me, it is better as a maintenance drug for someone totally trying to get out of the opiate lifestyle. But--IN MY OPINION ONLY!--it is no easier to do the final 'jump' in detoxing than methadone...so again, study up a bit on bupe, and make your own decisions, as you'll find me, and others on here, are very opinionated, but our opinions on the efficacy of bupe are all over the place.

I actually paid for private clinic--5 thou--to do the bupe detox, and failed....and tried maint, and it never got rid of craving, so I was always copping dope, and fucking with dosage. Often, it seems, longterm heroin addicts, like me, do better on methadone, and such is the case.

But anyway, you came through in one piece, and seem to be doing fine, and now you have some very hard earned experience which will help others...and also, the whole legality, "how can this be!?" and all that that many posted...I mean, come on, one of the first thing you learn as an addict is how little normal common sense or even 'the law' applies when they are dealing with junkies...we are at their mercy...under the terrible circumstances you did well, better than most...better than I've done when faced with judges and merciless prosecutors...

P.S.: NO worries At&T...we all quote, requote, and misquote each other on here all the time, and I'm flattered anybody'd think I had a clue, as what I am is a guy who's failed repeatedly at every program there is :):D:)

Poppylvr
02-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Cobb - I am currently in the early days of my wean off suboxone. My best advice to you and anyone else taking suboxone is to get your dose down as quickly as possible.
Suboxone is orange poisoned handcuffs. Yes, it saved my ass when I was teetering on the cliff edge of going back to drug use. But it is one hard motherfucker to come off of.
I had a little taste of sub's power earlier this year when I had hand surgery. My daily dose was 6 mg and I was having minor surgery in 8 days, so I had to drop very rapidly. Mistake #1- subs' long half life means you drop on day one and don't even feel WD's until day 3-5. So you are fooled into thinking oh this is a piece of cake and everyone on the internet is FOS...until you start with the WD's themselves.
I used to inject morphine, and I NEVER had the depth of depression from CT off morphine that I had from trying to wean off subs too fast. I went from functional to suicidally depressed in a week. I had the idea that I would use the rapid wean down as a jumping off point to getting clean from subs. Mistake # 2 - I didn't listen to experts. Everything I read said take it slowly, and I didn't and regretted it.
Phew! Getting way off track here.
Talk with your sub doc. Is your goal maintenance or to wean off the subs quickly? I chose maintenance, and I'm now at 2 yrs 2 months on subs, and wanting off desperately. Even if you want maintenance, I still say keep your dose low. I've read in several places that 2 mg of sub is equivalent to 30-40 mg methadone. If your doc supports you, even if you're going for maintenance, try to wean down so you don't have an orange monkey on your back. With subs, "less is more"- I'm finding that I "feel" my subs more on 5mg (for one week now) than I did at the higher doses.
Good luck - I'm glad the transition wasn't as awful as you feared.

Cobb
02-24-2010, 12:04 PM
Glad to hear you are doing o.k., and I guess you went through pw's after all...I guess you are a classic example of why they usually want people down to no more than 30mg daily on methadone, before they will make the transition, at clinics around here anyway. And also why they "try" really hard to get people to go 38 hrs without dosing before switiching, and yet still, every once in a while...you get bit by the bear. Part of junky life in the new world, I'm afraid. Now you know why some people are willing to fork over several thousand dollars to a private clinic who switches them to oxys for a week before the transition.

But that's yesterday's news. You're doing good, I'd kind of bone up on buprenorphene, both maintenance and detox, and it seems you need to kind of decide exactly what you want from these meds...bupe is nothing to play with, and I'd avoid trying to go any higher. As you have seen, there is no euphoria, and even the slight tingle you get at first, from 'getting well', goes away. To me, it is better as a maintenance drug for someone totally trying to get out of the opiate lifestyle. But--IN MY OPINION ONLY!--it is no easier to do the final 'jump' in detoxing than methadone...so again, study up a bit on bupe, and make your own decisions, as you'll find me, and others on here, are very opinionated, but our opinions on the efficacy of bupe are all over the place.

I actually paid for private clinic--5 thou--to do the bupe detox, and failed....and tried maint, and it never got rid of craving, so I was always copping dope, and fucking with dosage. Often, it seems, longterm heroin addicts, like me, do better on methadone, and such is the case.

But anyway, you came through in one piece, and seem to be doing fine, and now you have some very hard earned experience which will help others...and also, the whole legality, "how can this be!?" and all that that many posted...I mean, come on, one of the first thing you learn as an addict is how little normal common sense or even 'the law' applies when they are dealing with junkies...we are at their mercy...under the terrible circumstances you did well, better than most...better than I've done when faced with judges and merciless prosecutors...

P.S.: NO worries At&T...we all quote, requote, and misquote each other on here all the time, and I'm flattered anybody'd think I had a clue, as what I am is a guy who's failed repeatedly at every program there is :):D:)


Duckfeet--

Hey man. I was actually signing on today so that I could send you a message but you already answered my question in your reply to this thread. Let me say, once again thanks for the advice that you gave and the wonderful information. I was still feeling somewhat-shitty on Monday and when I saw that AT&T said you had successfully went from Methadone to Buprenorphine (if even for just a bit) it gave me a great sense of optimism So, I do truly thank you for that.

As you said- I can definitely understand why someone would pay more for a private-clinic. I would have if I had that option and the funds. I'm also- sorry that you failed in your switch- not because I am a big "whoop-whoop" advocate of Buprenorphine (I'm not) but because you spent on that money and you could have at least got high on it or something, haha.

It's kinda of scary. As you mentioned "what do I want from the drug?" I want maintenance but the doctor suggested that next month I come down from (2) Suboxone pills a day to (1) and a half. Now, I'm not against that one-hundred percent but it seems at that rate he is trying to do a super-fast detox than a maintenance program. That's probably not going to work for me- I don't see my self being clean of everything in six months. If he takes me off of the Suboxone- I'll probably be back on Methadone. So, I hope he's cool with doing the maintance thing for a while.

I have a question for you- and if anyone else want's to chime in- feel free.

Question: Will I ever be able to get a good/hard opiate high again in my life?
Now, don't get upset anyone or think that I plan on using anytime-soon because I don't. But understand I'm an opiate addict and for the last four-years the most important thing in this world to me has been opiates with no close second. So, this brings me to the question... will I ever be able to get high on opiate again in my life? I used to get a warm-little glow on Methadone but it was NOTHING and I mean NOTHING like the highs I was getting when I first starting using Percocets and Oxycontin. Now, that I'm on Suboxone- I don't even get that "warm-glow/tiny-as-fuck opiate buzz" like when I was on Methadone. That might be a good thing because now I don't sit around waiting for a certain time of the day for a very tiny 30 minute buzz. I don't like to drink, smoking weed is that great, and I hate speed. I love the high I chose and I'd like to know that someday I can feel it again if I choose.

I feel that after being on Methadone and getting my tolerance out of whack and now being on Buprenorphine I have somehow kissed away getting high forever. I can't imagine snorting an 80 and feeling high. Is there any-way to break through the barrier of Suboxone? I know that I can't do it with Oxycontin... but what about a 100mcg Fentanyl patch- smoked or chewed? I used to get high on 1/4 of a Fentanyl patch at my highest addiction-rate before going on Methadone. What if I just took a whole 100mcg Fentanyl patch and chewed it? Would I feel it? Would I not feel a thing and possibly OD? OR is it just plain impossible to feel anything while on Buprenorphine? If I did plan on using a Fentanyl patch and trying to feel that good opiate buzz would I have a chance if I stopped taking Subs for a week? Like I said- sorry for going on and on- it's just kinda weird/scary thinking I've taken away the pleasure of an opiate high for good- although I don't plan on perusing it anytime in the near future.


Cobb - I am currently in the early days of my wean off suboxone. My best advice to you and anyone else taking suboxone is to get your dose down as quickly as possible.
Suboxone is orange poisoned handcuffs. Yes, it saved my ass when I was teetering on the cliff edge of going back to drug use. But it is one hard motherfucker to come off of.
I had a little taste of sub's power earlier this year when I had hand surgery. My daily dose was 6 mg and I was having minor surgery in 8 days, so I had to drop very rapidly. Mistake #1- subs' long half life means you drop on day one and don't even feel WD's until day 3-5. So you are fooled into thinking oh this is a piece of cake and everyone on the internet is FOS...until you start with the WD's themselves.
I used to inject morphine, and I NEVER had the depth of depression from CT off morphine that I had from trying to wean off subs too fast. I went from functional to suicidally depressed in a week. I had the idea that I would use the rapid wean down as a jumping off point to getting clean from subs. Mistake # 2 - I didn't listen to experts. Everything I read said take it slowly, and I didn't and regretted it.
Phew! Getting way off track here.
Talk with your sub doc. Is your goal maintenance or to wean off the subs quickly? I chose maintenance, and I'm now at 2 yrs 2 months on subs, and wanting off desperately. Even if you want maintenance, I still say keep your dose low. I've read in several places that 2 mg of sub is equivalent to 30-40 mg methadone. If your doc supports you, even if you're going for maintenance, try to wean down so you don't have an orange monkey on your back. With subs, "less is more"- I'm finding that I "feel" my subs more on 5mg (for one week now) than I did at the higher doses.
Good luck - I'm glad the transition wasn't as awful as you feared.

Thanks for the advice. I found the thread you made earlier- about coming off of Buprenorphine and got a lot of knowledge out of it. I'm trying to take in and learn as much as I can about Suboxone because I don't know a whole lot about it. I like to know everything I can about the drugs I use- just as when I used Methadone or even Oxycontin I knew everything about them down the the core. I was actually thinking about the half-life of Buprenorphine last night and thinking about how long it was. I realized that it was even longer than Methadone and though to myself... "I bet it's a motherfucker to come off of." I'm glad to see that my assumption was right- but then again I'm pretty scared because I know- one day- at some point- maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next-week or next year I am going to have to feel a Suboxone withdrawals.

To answer your question- I am kinda looking into a detox right now. Just because I'm going back to school next semester- and I just want to tread on with my life for the time being. I don't want to be shitting in my pants for six weeks or anything for the time being. Do you think my doctor will be okay with letting me maintain instead of detox?

Also- I'd like to ask you- how much do you pay for your medication. My shit is costing me $420 for $60-pills- that's the cheapest I can find ($7 per pill-from the doctor's office). Plus, I have to pay $225 per month for the fucking doctor's visit (aka: the piss test and writing of the prescription). I've read on the internet that it's possible to get the Suboxone cheaper but I haven't seen any actual answers on how. I was wondering if you could shine some light onto this subject for me. Thanks again- and good luck in your taper, dear. I'm sure that I will contacting you some-time in the future with questions concerning my own taper.

HandMeSomeOpiates
02-24-2010, 12:06 PM
Man I'm just catching this thread Cobb and besides all the massive BS you went through in court, I just wanted to say it sounds like you have an outstanding, loving Mother. Glad your doing good now my friend!

Cobb
02-24-2010, 12:24 PM
Man I'm just catching this thread Cobb and besides all the massive BS you went through in court, I just wanted to say it sounds like you have an outstanding, loving Mother. Glad your doing good now my friend!

You have no idea man. I will forever be in debt to this woman for things she has done for me. She's a beautiful, loving woman, you couldn't ask for any better- brother. Like I said- if it wasn't for her and the support I got on this board I would have said "fuck court"- kept taking my Methadone- went through 180 days of jail in withdrawal and then probably came out and go right back to active addiction.

My mom- paid for all this shit- waited on me hand and foot- and even took a day off of work to be with me. This kinda bothers me because I'm used to be being independent. I can only hope/pray that I can someday give back to her the gracious amount of love/care that she has given to me.

Poppylvr
02-24-2010, 01:03 PM
Question: Will I ever be able to get a good/hard opiate high again in my life?
[B]God I hope so! Not that I'm planning any relapses but if I have to take narcs somewhere down the road I want them to be yummy.

What if I just took a whole 100mcg Fentanyl patch and chewed it? Would I feel it? Would I not feel a thing and possibly OD? OR is it just plain impossible to feel anything while on Buprenorphine? If I did plan on using a Fentanyl patch and trying to feel that good opiate buzz would I have a chance if I stopped taking Subs for a week? Like I said- sorry for going on and on- it's just kinda weird/scary thinking I've taken away the pleasure of an opiate high for good- although I don't plan on perusing it anytime in the near future.


Everyone's ability to get high on suboxone is different. There are many here who can stop for a day or two and have a great high, and equally many who can be off for weeks and still not feel anything on a good drug. I do not believe we have permanently ruined our chances of getting high. The bupe wears off eventually.
Re the fentanyl patch, call me a worried ole Nursey Grandma but my worry is that if you start messing around with fentanyl chasing a high you're going to end up dead from respiratory failure.



Also- I'd like to ask you- how much do you pay for your medication. My shit is costing me $420 for $60-pills- that's the cheapest I can find ($7 per pill-from the doctor's office). Plus, I have to pay $225 per month for the fucking doctor's visit (aka: the piss test and writing of the prescription). I've read on the internet that it's possible to get the Suboxone cheaper but I haven't seen any actual answers on how. I was wondering if you could shine some light onto this subject for me. Thanks again- and good luck in your taper, dear. I'm sure that I will contacting you some-time in the future with questions concerning my own taper.

This is going to hurt, Cobb :( - but I get my Sub doc visits for free - I'm married and we have double insurance. My sub doc is my long time psychiatrist and so the visits are billed as med management (I also have severe long term relapsing depression which is why I have a shrink in the first place).
I pay 150$ per bottle of 120 2mg for the first half of the fiscal year. Then because we have great insurance, after my ins company has paid out X amount in scripts, the remainder of my scripts from Jan until July are free. So right now I am doing Sub treatment for free. I wish everyone had access to the excellent insurance my husband and I have.

sopark4000
02-24-2010, 03:06 PM
I am not sure if anybody already mentioned it in the previous replies but I am nearly positive that it is not legal for the judge to order you to stop any kind of medical treatment without the recommendation of a health professional in that field for example when I was on drug court I wasn't allowed to take any illegal or illegaly obtained drugs and when I had knee surgery I was prescribed 30 mg oxycodone and when my piss came up dirty I showed them the script and the judge was going to have me put in jail even though I had the script but my lawyer introduced the fact that by law the judge didn't have the authority to force me to stop taking legaly prescribed medication

Duckfeet
02-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Sounds like you're doing good man: first thing I checked today, was to see how it was going...I know it can be really frightening, when one is taken off methadone, particularly in the fashion that you were...so it sounds like you are adjusting pretty good...Poppylvr pretty much covered the bases and said what I probably should've...just be really careful about going *up* in dose...also be very careful about detoxing too fast...Yes, get down low...I found best dose, maintenance for me, was 1-2 mg...I got a very slight lift about an hr after dosing, and it kept the demons at bay, mostly, but like I said, I had the commonplace problem that longterm heroin addicts often share, which is that the craving never really went away, like it does on methadone, for me...

But mostly I'd just be cautious if you do detox, not just to jump at 1mg daily...that was only real mistake I made, IMO...I *so* wanted off methadone in those days, and had followed exactly what clinic had told me, and got all the way down to 1mg daily, according to the schedule they had set for me, felt nothing, really, and when I jumped was so happy and looking forward to being drug free...

Unfortunately, around day *three* it really hit me hard...I actually thought i was 'out of the woods' when the serious detox began...nope, I got very sick and couldn't take it, and went back to hard drugs...since those days, seems like to 'jump' successfully, it's much better to drop way below just 1mg, more like 1/2 or 1/4 mg every *other* day, and then jump after doing that a while...this can be a very useful opiate, just should not be taken lightly... I had seven years fairly happy and sober off of everything before my accident which brought all this on, so it remains my hopeful goal to get off everything probably, but my overall goal isn't "to get sober no matter what!" but just to be reasonably happy on this strange planet, no matter what I have to do.

I'm doing fine on low dose methadone right now--34mg--but I suppose I'll keep dropping, my plan is to continue taper down to zero after a couple of months...I've done it twice with no problem, and stayed off for months afterwords, but then, like you asked, I want to feel the buzz, get a few perks...then it all starts up again...

And to answer your question: Yes you will feel that wonderful glow again, once all the dope is out of your system...hell, once I"m clean a month or so, a couple of percocets make me feel wonderful...even vicodins are great....problem is that as soon as I take any opiates, I immediately want more, in quantity, and eventually I"m gobbling all I can and then switch to heroin and then the whole hellish nightmare is back...so it's not that we don't get a buzz after having been on mdone or bupe, it's that we often get addicted very easy once we've had the monkey for any period of time on our backs...

In any case, you won't feel shit while you are doing bupe, so just take care of yourself, and check ouu all the info you can on bupe. For detox, I got a lot of help from www.heroin-detox.com ... in the bupe forum...but they can be kind of hard on those opting for maintenance...

Best wishes, sounds like you're doing much better...and yeah, they cost a lot...

sexualhealing
02-24-2010, 06:00 PM
cobb, no problem telling u my story as this one really hit me close......

i just am treading through this system day by day, about 13 months out of a 23 month supervised probation sentence..... and get my liscense back in sept.... finally...

but i know how nerve wracking the whole court process is, let alone if they would have taken me off my suboxone, i would have shit a brick.

My lawyer specifcally knew i was taking it, why i was on it, how much clean time, etc etc and i never even thought that maybe he was asking these things in case they did try.... i also had my doc on board willing to testify as my lawyer requested i line that up in case i needed as subs are not allowed in the jails here so i would have been double fucked had i gotten the full 2-7...... so it was a damage control, worst case defense that my health would deterioriate from the otherwise good lifestyle i was living if i were to go and house arrest would be a better option.

luckily i didnt have to face that.

i hope everything works out with that piss test thing, i didnt realize u didnt have results back yet and thats kinda odd to me as it seems maybe u entered into some plea, but charges werent even completely finished?? seems very shady of them to push u through all this as they did.

i commend you on your commitment and think things have a way of working themselves out so these assholes who did this to you WILL get their karma.

im kinda reminded of the case here in pa where the judges were sending first time child offenders to boot camps for kick backs and it all got blown back in their face.... maybe this is the case with this judge and hes getting kick backs from the sub doc???

just an idea, but hell, with the money i spent defending myself, a PI was actually the cheapest of all of my lawyer related bills..... and i had an ex state trooper corporal on the job!

would never hurt to save up over a year or so and see if u cant bring some whoop ass back to show these assholes they wronged u and should have to pay the piper themselves.


but more importantly, keep it up man, good luck... and keep ur head up!

OpiateQueen
02-24-2010, 07:23 PM
in Australia it seems the stigma around methadone is the same as the stigma around suboxone/subutex. Maybe its cos they both have to be picked up daily at a 'naughty persons drug/alcohol clinic' or equivalent...:rolleyes: