The 'dangers' of speedballs: myth or reality?

[Fat Pie]

This is a short essay I put together on the supposed myth that the mixture of Cocaine and Heroin known as a 'speedball' to many, is a deadly combination of drugs, and seeing if this rumour has any basis in either logic or reality:

‘Speedballing’, as we all know, is the mixing of Cocaine and Heroin, which is then subsequently taken together (either via injection, snorting or even smoking, through smoking crack and then 'Chasing the Dragon', or vice-versa). There is a prodigious fear of this combo, both in the straight community and the drug taking community. Heroin is seen as dangerous in itself, but the combination of Heroin and Cocaine seems to be considered a volatile mixture, although no one can explain why.

Some articles explain that Cocaine can mask the symptoms of a Heroin overdose, allowing it to set in later. If this is true then what is deadly about the combination? Surely if one has OD'd on Heroin, one has OD'd, and whatever is delaying it is simply preventing that person from falling unconscious for five minutes or so. What exactly is bad about that? It doesn't enhance the overdose (as some believe), and if anything, gives a person a little more time to breath or remain conscious, and thus get help when they do fall over and stop breathing. At the very least it increases the chances of them surviving by supposedly prolonging consciousness throughout the first, initial rush of Heroin throughout the body (and therefore the strongest). If a delayed overdose effect is going to occur, then surely it is the Heroin, and not the Cocaine mixed in with it, that is going to cause an overdose.

What damages this rumour most, however, is the fact that Cocaine is merely a stimulant, not an opiate blocker. Whilst something like Naltrexone can prevent an overdose, it does so not because it is a stimulant, but because it blocks the opiate receptors in the brain, rendering the Heroin unable to release the endorphins of the brain and consequently depress the CNS system enough to stop a person breathing. However, successive doses of Naltrexone are required to stop the opiate binding with the receptors in the brain, until the opiate drug has broken down enough in the blood to render it harmless (hence where the idea of Cocaine delaying an overdose of Heroin may come from, since after a dose of Naltrexone wears out, the Morphine in the system will once again bind to the receptors, and if high enough will cause loss of consciousness and cessation of breathing once more).

Cocaine, on the other hand, is just a stimulant. One concludes through false logic that a stimulant can keep a depressant's effects at bay by 'stimulating' the individual involved, but all this means is that the heart is stimulated to beat faster. In the brain, where the actually messages for breathing are being relayed, all the Cocaine is able to do is release dopamine from the brain's dopamine receptors. The Morphine molecules will still stay very much binded to the opiate receptors of the brain, and if numerous enough, will inevitably cause the individual to stop breathing through depression of the Central Nervous System. If this wasn't compelling enough evidence that Cocaine is useless at preventing a Heroin overdose, there have been a slew of cases where, when an individual suffered a Heroin OD, his friends would inject him with several doses of Cocaine, to try and 'stimulate' his body into consciousness. Needless to say, this was unsuccessful, and the person died anyway (this once happened to a famous celebrity).

Another rumour that persists about the 'speedball', is that taking a stimulant and a depressant at the same time somehow upsets the balance of chemicals in the body, as if there is a delicate balance in our bloodstream that must either go up, or down; introducing both at the same time might 'confuse' our bodies somehow. Of course, there is no evidence to suggest that stimulants and depressants mixed together act in volatile or dangerous way when introduced to our bloodstreams, and there certainly is no 'balance' of stimulants and depressants in our bloodstreams that need to be maintained. On the contrary, mixing a depressant and a depressant can have devastating effects. One old piece of junkie lore was that combining alcohol and Heroin was deadly. Unfortunately, this rumour died out after the 40's, but rather than being a rumour, it is very much a fact. Junkies and users alike need to start repeating this 'rumour' to each other again, because lives are at stake, and lack of information can kill as easily as false information can.

Alcohol is a CNS (Central Nervous System) depressant; when mixed with another depressant, Heroin, for example (which, like alcohol, affects the part of our brains that regulate breathing), the results can be deadly. The individual will lose consciousness, stop breathing, and rapidly suffocate. An individual can lose consciousness and stop breathing for up to an hour if this happens: it takes approximately 4 minutes for the brain to die from lack of oxygen. Thus, time is of the essence in these cases, and medical attention is required immediately. One man is said to have died after drinking alcohol and then smoking Heroin, so this is certainly not an issue to be restricted to those who use the needle only. The same warning for those who mix depressants is easily noticeable in (but still rarely connected up with) cases where alcohol and depressants such as benzodiazepines and barbiturates are involved. A prime example of legal drugs causing factually documented, scientifically proven, and above all, logical, harm to victims; not fairytales invented to make combining two of the supposedly 'hardest' and 'dangerous' drugs (i.e. Heroin and Cocaine), look even worse than taking the two alone. A sort of greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts tale that turns pretty pathetic piles of powder from ground-up flowers into the most evil, diabolical substances man has ever know, made by the Devil himself to snare mankind, the same way he ensnared Adam & Eve, in order to make up for his failure in tempting Jesus, the substances men make millions off and the substances men die for, kill for and go to jail for.

The main fact is that in a mixture of Cocaine and Heroin, the Cocaine is the only substance likely to do damage, by stimulating the heart and causing it to beat rapidly/erratically. This is why, although Heroin users can persist for decades with their abuse, and never show any signs of ill health caused by that substance (in itself), Cocaine stimulates, and therefore wears out, the heart. As a consequence, Cocaine/Crack Cocaine users can find themselves suffering from heart probelms later on in life, after several years of sustained abuse. Overdoses on 'speedballs' can happen, of course (I'm not saying they can't), but if an OD does occur, it will not be the 'speedball' mixture that does it; it will be a concentration of Heroin that is either to pure or too high that does it.

Of course, the best way to dispel a rumour about a drug is to try it yourself - hence all the DARE and 'Just Say No' kids had revelations, but from then on didn't trust anything that anyone had to say, and ended up being arrested, OD'ing or dying, only to be held up as pictures on 'told-you-so' posters by the idiots that put them in that position in the first place by lying to them, instead of just being straight, to the point and truthful, which would have prevented this 'lost generation' drugs crap in the first place! I have tried 'speedballs' on several occasions over several days. I enjoyed them, but didn't become addicted to them, which is probably the greatest danger those two drugs combined will ever pose to anyone. They're too expensive, and often too hard to get hold of at the same time to really become a habit, unless you're rich and have really good connections - even then, most people chose a single drug, and stick to it. I enjoy 'speedballs' at special occasions, if I can get hold of them, and I think they're fantastic. Has anyone else experienced 'speedballs' in any form (smoked, snorted, plugged or shot?), and would like to share their experiences, would anyone like to comment on the article, what they liked or disliked, what they agreed or didn't agree with, what they found wrong, missing or incorrect about the information provided (please provide links to proof, or post proof in their posts if this is the case), and does anyone have any further questions about information in the article I've written?

Thanks for reading/contributing.

[nick]

Umm,I'm a generous grader(try and encourage folks and all that) so I'll give you a D-.Oh what the hell,let's make it a D+.

[nick]

Jesus,i feel guilty now! A C it is and that's my final grade.

Seriously,I'd need to know what you intend to do with this essay to offer detailed suggestions.

[blackman]

<snip>would anyone like to comment on the article, what they liked or disliked, what they agreed or didn't agree with, what they found wrong, missing or incorrect about the information provided (please provide links to proof, or post proof in their posts if this is the case)<snip>.[/QUOTE]




I actully think that you're the one that needs to provide proof to their claim.

I know this is an essay on a drug forum, but a thesis statement would really help organize your thoughts and your argument.

[Thanat0s]

myth, speedballs are gods gift to his brave children.

fact.

[harryhood2001]

Wow I we have some real intelectuals on this thread don't we. I know especially with opiate addicts, that most of us are very smart, actually to smart for our own good. Sometimes I wish I WAS just a simple man, without all these 4 and 5 dimesional thoughts, which I believe is a big reason I was so "in love" with opiates to begin with, is that it really calmed my mind, and gave me the feeling that its all good, rather than over analize everything. If you have ever been to Texas you would no that there are alot of "good ole' boys" and they irritate the chit out of me, but sometimes I wish I was as "simple minded" as they seem to be. I might have not had a reason to feel the need to medicate to begin with. Well have a good morning. (Im tippin' the front of my cowboy hat to ya)

[duck]

Capitalizing "Cocaine" is like capitalizing "Chocolate Cake"

[edhorfin]

Maybe some more research is in order. So many willing test subjects here, you could perform a truly large scale study. Maybe the cartel could fund it?

On a more serious note, with stimulants vs depressants, opiates are respiratory depressants, and many deaths from overdose are as a result of respiratory failure, i.e. stopped breathing. BTW, that's just my opinion, no real data to back it up. I don't know if cocaine is a respiratory stimulant, or even if there is such a thing.

Personally, I think death by speedball, or "the full Belushi", happens because it just feels so effing good that its really hard to stop. I'm thankful I always ran out of one drug or the other before I croaked.

[Restharrow]

Capitalizing "Cocaine" is like capitalizing "Chocolate Cake"
If you liked choclate cake as much as me you would understand Duck.

Will

[MastaKilla12888]

Which celebrity had overdosed on Heroine and then was injected with cocaine??? I know I've heard this before but can't put 2 and 2 together

[chopstix]

F without bibliography/sources, I´m a tough grader (with a confused keyboard).

Personal opinion is that itś possible that either the perceived, or false, notion of a heightened seizure threshold is a risk. Iḿ not sold that there is less danger mixing the two.

Not that I haven´t though, and smiled :)

[Thanat0s]

If you liked choclate cake as much as me you would understand Duck.

Will

+1

hawhawhaw!

[duck]

And an academic/scientific-based paper without ridiculous levels of sources is an imminent failure.

[Fat Pie]

Umm,I'm a generous grader(try and encourage folks and all that) so I'll give you a D-.Oh what the hell,let's make it a D+.

I'm a sad Panda. :(

Anyone here ever see the movie 'Tommy Boy', with Chris Farley (another actor who supposedly OD'd on a speedball, but with morphine instead of H; dunno how he ended up with morphine, medicinal use perhaps)?

The premise: Tommy is a typical, fat, John Belushi-esque college idiot who hasn't graduated in American History 101 for seven years. He checks his results on the board with the other students after the test:

"Excuse me...please...I just need to...see this..."

He runs his finger down the list to 'Tommy Callahan': D+

"Oh...my...God. I pahahaaassed! I got a D+! I'm gonna graduate!"

He suddenly hugs another student, but then slowly lets go.

"I wish we'd known each other a little better, 'cos this is a bit awkward!"

He runs down the corridor screaming at the top of his voice, doing cartwheels.

"I'M GONNA GRADUTE!!!! D PLUUUUS!!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

Great film, great actor, great loss.

Jesus,i feel guilty now! A C it is and that's my final grade.

Seriously,I'd need to know what you intend to do with this essay to offer detailed suggestions.

Aw shucks, thanks nick. :)

I actully think that you're the one that needs to provide proof to their claim.

I know this is an essay on a drug forum, but a thesis statement would really help organize your thoughts and your argument.

I did provide proof, in the form of scientific facts; stimulants and depressants don't cause automatic OD's, and there is no balance that needs to be maintained between the two. We don't know a lot about how opiates and coke interact with the brain, or why dopamine levels become synergistic when they are taken as one (dopamine levels in brain after taking coke: 400%; dopamine levels in brain after taking heroin: 70%; dopamine levels in brain after taking 'speedball', or the two combined: over 1000%). However, since stimulants and opiates work on different parts of the brain, one cannot automatically OD by taking them together. Did you notice the section where I stated that opiates bind with opiate receptors, and cocaine binds with dopamine receptors? If one OD's on heroin, it is because the levels of Morphine activating those receptors are too high, and interfering with breathing. It doesn't matter how much coke is in the equation, it won't enhance or halt the binding of the opiate molecules with the receptors. It is a stimulant, and functions on a different part of the brain. The only thing that would interfere with those opiate receptors is an opiate inhibitor, such as Naltrexone (which blocks the receptors), or more morphine, which would prolong the effects of an OD and thus leave the individual susceptible to death. As for damage done, we all know that heroin does no physical damage to the body, but cocaine overstimulates the heart, and can damage it, which is where the only real danger in speedballing lies (after OD'ing on the heroin of course). I didn't feel the need to really prove my statements with links because this is basic chemical science 101, and that is how the drugs interact with the brain. I'm not making it up; I read plenty on the subject of drug use, that's why I know the details. but it's a pretty simple premise at the end of the day. Coke and dope affect two different parts of the brain, and although they interact, it is not in a fashion that would create an OD, as say alcohol and heroin would, by severely limiting breathing capabilities and reflexes. The few websites that cover this sort of stuff are very complex, and don't so much answer the issues I've brought up as explain in great detail the science behind them;

For example:

Preface from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9618415

'Cocaine and heroin often are abused together in a combination known as a "speedball," but relatively little is known about ways in which cocaine and heroin may interact to modify each other's abuse-related effects. The present study evaluated the discriminative stimulus effects of a speedball combination of cocaine and heroin. Three rhesus monkeys were trained to discriminate vehicle from a 10:1 ratio of cocaine (0.4 mg/kg) in combination with heroin (0.04 mg/kg). Both cocaine alone and heroin alone substituted completely for the cocaine/heroin combination, although cocaine and heroin were more potent when administered together than when administered alone. Combined pretreatment with the dopamine antagonist flupenthixol and the opioid antagonist quadazocine dose-dependently antagonized the discriminative stimulus effects of the cocaine/heroin combination, but pretreatment with either antagonist alone was less effective. These findings suggest that either cocaine or heroin alone was sufficient to substitute for the cocaine/heroin training combination. To characterize the discriminative stimulus properties of this speedball more fully, a series of cocaine-like and heroin-like agonists were studied in substitution tests. The indirect dopamine agonists CFT, amphetamine and bupropion and the mu opioid agonists alfentanil, fentanyl and morphine produced high levels of speedball-appropriate responding. However, the indirect dopamine agonist GBR12909, the D1 dopamine agonist SKF82958, the D2 dopamine agonist quinpirole and the partial mu opioid agonist nalbuphine did not substitute for the cocaine/heroin combination. Because these compounds produce discriminative stimulus effects similar to either cocaine or mu opioid agonists alone, these findings suggest that the discriminative stimulus effects of the cocaine/heroin combination do not overlap completely with the effects of cocaine and heroin alone. Finally, a series of compounds that produce partial or no substitution for cocaine or mu agonists alone also did not substitute for the cocaine/heroin combination, which indicates that the discriminative stimulus effects of the combination were pharmacologically selective. Taken together, these findings suggest that a combination of cocaine and heroin produces a pharmacologically selective discriminative stimulus complex that includes aspects of both component drugs.'

Did you catch all that? See my point? (although ironically you’ll probably notice something in there that proves me wrong, lol)

Most of my knowledge about this subject actually comes from the stellar books written on H by Frank Moraes; he's a Phd, so I trust his knowledge, and if you're looking to verify my sketchy science, his book are probably best. Also, having used speedballs myself sensibly, I can say myself that they pose no more danger than taking either Coke or H alone. You always have to be careful with drugs, but there isn't some poison mixture that is made if you take both at the same time, and while I wouldn't classify taking a speedball as 'safe' (I included in my article that it most certainly still kill you, but not for the reasons rumoured), it certainly won't cause you definite harm if you do take one through toxic biocombination or anything.

And lastly, I didn't put a preface or thesis statement on my work because it wasn't really an argument; just a collection of facts leading to a solid conclusion. If you disagree with me, by all means point out my errors. I would be vain indeed to think that I was infallible, but if there's anything glaringly wrong with my work, please do point it out, as I would really appreciate the knowledge.

Capitalizing "Cocaine" is like capitalizing "Chocolate Cake"

Yeah, sorry! I don't know why, but I went back and capitalized all the C's in "Cocaine". Damn, I did it again!

Maybe some more research is in order. So many willing test subjects here, you could perform a truly large scale study. Maybe the cartel could fund it?

On a more serious note, with stimulants vs depressants, opiates are respiratory depressants, and many deaths from overdose are as a result of respiratory failure, i.e. stopped breathing. BTW, that's just my opinion, no real data to back it up. I don't know if cocaine is a respiratory stimulant, or even if there is such a thing.

Personally, I think death by speedball, or "the full Belushi", happens because it just feels so effing good that its really hard to stop. I'm thankful I always ran out of one drug or the other before I croaked.

That's exactly what I said in my article, opiates are respiratory despressants, which is why mixing them with a CNS depressant such as alcohol can be deadly, as it slows your breathing down until it stops! Cocaine isn't a respiratory stimulant, it stimulates the heart and brain, which is why it has no effect against an opiate OD.

I agree with your Belushi hypothesis too; I think people got the impression he took one speedball and died. He took loads of shots, and didn't even administer them himself, the hooker/drug dealer with him did (Kathy Smith, was that her name?); the one that finished him off was given while he was unconcious. If you take enough of anything, even chocolate, or Vitamin C, you'll die. This wasn't some sudden speedball that ended in death. Johnwas slowly poisoned until his body could take no more; when you combine the compulsive nature of coke, which needs to be taken over again, and mix it with H, which feels orgasmic, it can be very hard to stop. Hence these people end up dying of Heroin overdoses, not speedball overdoses.

If you liked choclate cake as much as me you would understand Duck.

Will

Yeah, I think that'swhy I did it! Know what I mean? ;)

Which celebrity had overdosed on Heroine and then was injected with cocaine??? I know I've heard this before but can't put 2 and 2 together

It was a certain musician I believe, but I can't remember who exactly.

F without bibliography/sources, I´m a tough grader (with a confused keyboard).

Personal opinion is that itś possible that either the perceived, or false, notion of a heightened seizure threshold is a risk. Iḿ not sold that there is less danger mixing the two.

Not that I haven´t though, and smiled :)

I didn't know I was being graded! No fair!

I never said there was less danger in mixing heroin and cocaine together into a speedball combination, what I said was that taking a speedball was no more dangerous than taking a shot of heroin, as that is the only thing in the mixture that can kill you outright if too much is taken, but won't cause damage to the body, unlike cocaine, whcih is proven to affect the heart. And I did state that it was very possible to die from a speedball. I don't want people to think I'm endorsing hard drugs or this use/abuse. And can you expand upon your seizure threshold theory; I didn't really understand.

And an academic/scientific-based paper without ridiculous levels of sources is an imminent failure.

This isn't an academic paper, it's a short article explaining why speedballs are thouht of to be eadly, and why they are in reality no more dangerous than a shot of heroin alone. The science involved is very basic, cerntered around logic and chemical facts, whilst the info was garnered from several of Frank Moraes, Phd's books, and I recalled some other information froma web article about speedballs, including user data and tests done on animals, although I cannot remember what or where it was. You're welcome to look it up, as well as to challenge my claims and post websites with evidence to the contrary, as I'm sure my little piece isn't infallible or completely devoid of incorrect information. That is why the offer at the end of my article is there.

As for sources, the science is very basic and provable (we all know that opiates bind with opiate receptors, and that stimulants such as cocaine increase dopmaine levels in the brain, for instance), with some of the information (surprise, surprise) not coming from the web, but from books. Considering how many people bad mouth false info on the net, you'd think that info from Phd professors' books would be rather highly regarded, especially one sympathetic to opiate users, and thus not full of biased crap about the evils of speedballs, but rather using solid facts to represent logical claims. It's all in my article (although granted, I left out mention of Moraes; for some reason, while typing my very long article, I didn't think I'd be called out on my facts by fellow opiate users who are well accustomed to learning that not all is what it seems in the drug business.

As for a myriad of sources, would you have read them? I believe it would have been a waste of my time to add pointless sources that no one would read, and felt it better to wait for someone else to ask for the info first. The scientific facts I use are basic, and the logic I apply is founded in that science. Some of my sources were from the internet, such as where I garnered the info about the compatability of speedballs in releasing ridiculous amounts of dopamine, but I cannot remember far back enough about those sites; you are welcome to look if you wish; and the rest came from Moraes's books, which I'm sure more than a few of you have read if you've visited www.heroinhelper.org (http://www.heroinhelper.org) (which also has a small article on the speedball myth, but not much, and scientific evidence to back it up. Moraes instead uses his books to delve into that subject, and does a fantastic job of presenting the scietific facts as they are.

[Thebane]

I just want to point out that logically there is no way to prove the statement "H and C taken together do not carry any risk of OD greater than an equal amount of H and C used alone." Unless, you spelled out every way H and C affect the body alone and every way they interact to affect the body (which you say isn't even known). Of course, science doesn't know every way they affect the body, alone and especially together, so it is purely hypothetical that one could ever prove what you say you do. In practice, it's impossible to prove something like this doesn't exist (in this case, a greater chance of OD by combining H and C). The only real think you can prove doesn't exist is something simple like "2 + 2 = 5."

The only real evidence, but not proof, would be a good medical study, preferably more than one. But simplistically describing their affects on the body and then saying you can conclude they don't together contribute to an OD is not proof or evidence... And it surely isn't as reliable as subjective reports, since it's logically impossible to do what you claim to do.

No offense meant of course. Just an observation.

[nick]

You're back on a D-.

[MastaKilla12888]

I think River Phoenix also died from Speedball OD, and that guy who was in the Red Hot Chili Peppers too right??

[duck]

Disclaimer: I want to be as helpful as possible, I am in no way trying to be an asshole or to just talk shit or anything like that.


I know it's not an academic paper explicitly, but any paper that is based on a scientific topic -- especially here, with a physical/biological science topic -- you're just going to have to provide strong sources to support your claims.

It really means absolutely nothing to just state your opinion that speedballs are not inherently dangerous.

Your basic argument from what I gather is as follows:
Premise1: cocaine when used safely in moderation is not inherently deadly
Premise 2: Heroin when used safely and in moderation is not inherently deadly
Premise 3: The allegation that there is a drug interaction/contraindication between cocaine and heroin is false
----------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Using cocaine and heroin together, i.e. speed ball, is not inherently deadly

This is an example of a logically valid, but logically unsound argument on the basis of insufficiency. That is, your conclusion follows from your premises which means the argument is valid. However, the truth of your premises is where your argument does not hold up, resulting in its unsoundness.

You need to prove your premises, or they're not considered true (unless they are understood by society, e.g. an apple is a fruit). A premise must be treated as an intermediate conclusion and thus must be proven. For premise 1 and 2, these are pretty much understood by society and don't necessarily need to be proven for the purposes of this paper. However, you really need to research and fortify your argument around Premise 3, which essentially is the heart of your essay.

If you could go research and find legitimate, reputable sources that explain that there is not an explicit negative interaction/contraindication between cocaine and heroin, your argument would come together much better. If you could find 2-3 studies that prove without a shadow of a doubt that cocaine and heroin (especially when used intravenously) when used together in recreational doses do not have negative synergistic effects, your paper would really improve.

As far as technical stuff goes, I know it is more common in British English, but there are far, far too many commas. They are very unnecessary and take away from the paper. The language and tone of the paper are a bit sophomoric, papers about serious topics should maitian a serious (though not condescending) tone.

The paper has potential, but for it to be really worth anything at all it needs to be taken to an entirely different level. Nobody gives a shit about your opinion on a scientific/health related topic, you've got to use scientific and academic methodology with topics like these, or the papers are completely worthless.

At the end of the day, however, if the studies have already shown (they have) that there are not contraindications between cocaine and heroin at recreational safe doses, your paper isn't accomplishing anything other than restating a conclusion found by somebody else. I would attempt to find an interesting angle to argue from, and not just "it's safe to shoot coke and heroin," because it doesn't really expand your audience's vision. If you can make us think about it in a different way, it may be of more value.

[Woody Bear]

when you combine the compulsive nature of coke, which needs to be taken over again, and mix it with H, which feels orgasmic, it can be very hard to stop.
Yes, that is why speedballs are more likely to cause overdoses than heroin alone, users are more likely to use more heroin in a shorter amount of time, then they would if they just stuck to using heroin alone.

Also because of vasoconstricting effects of the cocaine, and the short lasting effects, more frequent injections happen, and each injection is more likely to cause vein and tissue damage, also the frequent injections give the veins much less time to recover.

[blackman]

You will always get a shitty grade if you write a paper expecting your audience to know all of the terms that you know. You gotta write to the layman. Expect your audience to be dumb as a rock. And site your sources in the text. claim,proof(i.e. source).

Yeah, the combination may not cause an OD but I can guarantee that it ain't good for ya

stimulant=fast heart beat
depressent=slow heart beat
together=heart not knowing what the fuck to do

[Paregoric Kid]

well they can be used safely. bromptons cocktails are still prescribed in the UK and other opioid+stimulant combos are prescribed all over the world.

[Ozzy]

I'm sorry but that is horribly written. You also contradict yourself a few times and are a little off on some of the facts you present. I can go into more detail if you want.

[Dhedmo]

well they can be used safely. bromptons cocktails are still prescribed in the UK and other opioid+stimulant combos are prescribed all over the world.
^^^Bromptons cocktail....mmmmm.....The Long Island Iced Tea of hard drugs.

I am not tall enough to ride that ride.

But, if I'm ever terminal*, I will not even need to look at the drinks menu.





*in a medical, imminent sense

[blackman]

well they can be used safely. bromptons cocktails are still prescribed in the UK and other opioid+stimulant combos are prescribed all over the world.



Yea man, but brompton cocktails are prescribed as oral solutions, not iv. The mixture of cocaine and heroin directly in the blood stream is not good for the heart.

[aDoS]

I remember reading something in a novel written by Burroughs where the main character was talking about how injecting morphine with cocaine was a way to prevent a cocaine overdose.

[EleusisII]

If you get your facts on drugs from books written by Burroughs, you're in a bad place indeed.

[aDoS]

Nah...I wasn't passing it off as fact. I was just sharing the rumor.

[EleusisII]

Which is how junkie-lore gets started my friend.

Anyways, gotta go, brb, buddy overdosed have to shoot him up with some methamphetamine to get him back!

[Citricburn]

myth, speedballs are gods gift to his brave children.

fact.

Haha get in there mate.

[Citricburn]

You're back on a D-.

this is the best site on the internet...haha

[Citricburn]

Yeah, sorry! I don't know why, but I went back and capitalized all the C's in "Cocaine". Damn, I did it again!


Are you in London, England or London, Ohio, get a grip of yourself man!

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

You will always get a shitty grade if you write a paper expecting your audience to know all of the terms that you know. You gotta write to the layman. Expect your audience to be dumb as a rock. And site your sources in the text. claim,proof(i.e. source).

Yeah, the combination may not cause an OD but I can guarantee that it ain't good for ya

stimulant=fast heart beat
depressent=slow heart beat
together=heart not knowing what the fuck to do

How the hell did I miss this beauty of a tread???:confused:
"together=heart not knowing what the fuck to do"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this is the medical fact- jack
quote the raven "NEVERMORE"

;)

[Thanat0s]

so, were like, all getting speedballs sent out for feild testing right? i didnt read the whole thread, but i ASSUME the OP knows that newer members have to send every member whos been here longer a speedball gift basket to put under our xmas poppy patch???

then well KNOW if the dangers are myth or reality as well...

waiting for my package patiently....

[upstate_007]

I think a paper like this would be more appropriate for a medical class using actual case studies with medical examination and conclusive testing. Showing why the two together are not inherently dangerous with some sort of compiled data behind it would be a lot more convincing than an expanded logic equation.

I do think the theory is interesting, but without any real evidence to back it up it would be a hard argument to make.

For the essay you have right now I would suggest including some sources to back your claims up. Most of us on here think we know a whole lot about drugs. And a lot of us do know more than the average person. But, you have to take your audience into account. Spell out overdose instead of writing OD.

there have been a slew of cases where, when an individual suffered a Heroin OD, his friends would inject him with several doses of Cocaine, to try and 'stimulate' his body into consciousness.

Any proof of that or cases that you can site?

Junkies and users alike need to start repeating this 'rumour' to each other again, because lives are at stake, and lack of information can kill as easily as false information can.

Junkies are users. Might be better to refer to them (us) as heroin users.


The main fact is that in a mixture of Cocaine and Heroin, the Cocaine is the only substance likely to do damage, by stimulating the heart and causing it to beat rapidly/erratically

Heroin can do plenty of damage as well. Just ask the hospital workers who brought my turning blue self back to this world.


I hope some of that helps out in some way.

[Fat Pie]

There's been a lot of scrutiny on this board, over a post which I honestly didn't think would get a lot of attention or be regarded as anything 'academic'. However, this board would be a very boring place without arguments, and I'm grateful that so many people have taken such a deep interest in this topic. I will try to answer as many of these posts as possible, in order:

I just want to point out that logically there is no way to prove the statement "H and C taken together do not carry any risk of OD greater than an equal amount of H and C used alone." Unless, you spelled out every way H and C affect the body alone and every way they interact to affect the body (which you say isn't even known). Of course, science doesn't know every way they affect the body, alone and especially together, so it is purely hypothetical that one could ever prove what you say you do. In practice, it's impossible to prove something like this doesn't exist (in this case, a greater chance of OD by combining H and C). The only real think you can prove doesn't exist is something simple like "2 + 2 = 5."

The only real evidence, but not proof, would be a good medical study, preferably more than one. But simplistically describing their affects on the body and then saying you can conclude they don't together contribute to an OD is not proof or evidence... And it surely isn't as reliable as subjective reports, since it's logically impossible to do what you claim to do.

No offense meant of course. Just an observation.

Tests have been done on rats and monkeys to this effect, and whilst obviously not as reliable as human tests, do give a very accurate overall picture

I disagree with your statement that there is no way to logically prove that H and C taken together carry no more risk of OD than H alone, because no one has yet proved this to the contrary, and the tests done on animals indicate otherwise. Logic and science demonstrate that H and C affect two different parts of the brain, therefore they cannot co-habilitate with each other in order to create a cumulative overdose, like H and alcohol. What's hard to understand about that? What cannot be proven about that?

I finally managed to find the site I was talking about that has the experiments and the info:

http://opioids.com/speedballs/index.html

This doesn't cover everything and there's a lot of information to digest, but there are plenty of speedball experiments, and they none of them end up with the animal suffering from some toxic poison when the two combine.

That was what I was arguing, not that a speedball cannot kill you (I was quite clear on that), but that H and C together do not combine to produce or become some mysterious toxic poison, and won't automatically kill someone (as thousands of speedballers have proven).

Disclaimer: I want to be as helpful as possible, I am in no way trying to be an asshole or to just talk shit or anything like that.

Please, you don't need a disclaimer. I welcomed argument or correction in my OP; as long as you're post isn't a glib, offhand remark that is neither constructive more helpful, I won't throw a tantrum.

I know it's not an academic paper explicitly, but any paper that is based on a scientific topic -- especially here, with a physical/biological science topic -- you're just going to have to provide strong sources to support your claims.

My post wasn't an attempt to delve into science too much, I just used basic facts I had garnered from various sources, along with provide the logic that usually dispels myths of a frivolous or illogical nature. The website above is where I found some of my information, and provided experiments about speedballs done on animals.

It really means absolutely nothing to just state your opinion that speedballs are not inherently dangerous.

I didn't. I stated that cocaine and H affect two different parts of the brain; coke doesn't interact with opiate receptors. That's a scientific fact. Opiates interact with opiate receptors.

I never stated that speedballs were not inherently dangerous; I stated that they could definitely kill you. My point is that they won't kill you through biocombinated toxicity, but through simple overdose on H. A mixture such as H and alcohol however, would be toxic because the two combine to slow down breathing to the point where it stops. Do you see what I mean?

Your basic argument from what I gather is as follows:
Premise1: cocaine when used safely in moderation is not inherently deadly
Premise 2: Heroin when used safely and in moderation is not inherently deadly
Premise 3: The allegation that there is a drug interaction/contraindication between cocaine and heroin is false
----------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Using cocaine and heroin together, i.e. speed ball, is not inherently deadly

That's slightly off track, and I understand that would lead to a false argument of "1 + 1 = 5". The first two points are correct, but I have not argued against a drug interaction between cocaine and heroin (I was quite clear that they combine to produce excessive levels of dopamine in the brain). However, the two do not combine in any way to produce a toxic substance through reaction, as is a false rumour, and that is my point.

Your last point, that using a speedball is not inherently deadly, is not what I meant. Using a speedball in any way can be deadly, but my point was that scientifically, there is nothing toxic that occurs when H and C enter the bloodstream. Rather, if one were to OD on a speedball, it would be on the H alone, and nothing to do with the C.

This is an example of a logically valid, but logically unsound argument on the basis of insufficiency. That is, your conclusion follows from your premises which means the argument is valid. However, the truth of your premises is where your argument does not hold up, resulting in its unsoundness.

I believe my above point answers this query.

You need to prove your premises, or they're not considered true (unless they are understood by society, e.g. an apple is a fruit). A premise must be treated as an intermediate conclusion and thus must be proven. For premise 1 and 2, these are pretty much understood by society and don't necessarily need to be proven for the purposes of this paper. However, you really need to research and fortify your argument around Premise 3, which essentially is the heart of your essay.

I was unable to provide my proof/origins of research because it was garnered from books and websites long ago. However, I did find the website with the animal experiments:

http://opioids.com/speedballs/index.html

...and Frank Moraes's books provide a wealth of info on the myth of speedballs. I also laid out the science and logic behind the speedball myth, but since I didn't provide any links to proof, some people may have been mislead into thinking I was just making the info up or relying on personal insight.

If you could go research and find legitimate, reputable sources that explain that there is not an explicit negative interaction/contraindication between cocaine and heroin, your argument would come together much better. If you could find 2-3 studies that prove without a shadow of a doubt that cocaine and heroin (especially when used intravenously) when used together in recreational doses do not have negative synergistic effects, your paper would really improve.

See above.

As far as technical stuff goes, I know it is more common in British English, but there are far, far too many commas. They are very unnecessary and take away from the paper. The language and tone of the paper are a bit sophomoric, papers about serious topics should maintain a serious (though not condescending) tone.

Was I condescending? I'm sorry if the paper gave you that impression, I was just stating a point.

Everyone seems to be grading this paper as a piece of potential academia, which I never intended it to be; it's just a post! I'm touched that people chose to see it in such a serious light, but that wasn't my goal. I'm not in school anymore, and science was never my strong subject; English was, ironically enough, where I scored straight A's, so I do know how to write a paper.

The paper has potential, but for it to be really worth anything at all it needs to be taken to an entirely different level. Nobody gives a shit about your opinion on a scientific/health related topic, you've got to use scientific and academic methodology with topics like these, or the papers are completely worthless.

I did! Everything in the post is logically and scientifically sound, although I admit I borrowed heavily from Mr. Moraes and a few other websites.

At the end of the day, however, if the studies have already shown (they have) that there are not contraindications between cocaine and heroin at recreational safe doses, your paper isn't accomplishing anything other than restating a conclusion found by somebody else. I would attempt to find an interesting angle to argue from, and not just "it's safe to shoot coke and heroin," because it doesn't really expand your audience's vision. If you can make us think about it in a different way, it may be of more value.

I never considered this to need to be 'worth' anything, it's just a post on a topic I remembered about the speedball myth, and nowhere do I state that "it's safe to shoot coke and heroin". You're right in saying that I'm just restating a conclusion found by someone else, but why is my post constantly being referred to as a 'paper', as if I'm writing an exam?

You're back on a D-.

Like I said, this wasn't a paper I handed in to my professor at college, it's a post, that's all.

Are you in London, England or London, Ohio, get a grip of yourself man!

There's a London, Ohio? I knew about London, Canada, which makes sense, since it's a province of the British Empire, but Ohio? Must be from the colonial/land of discovery era.

[Citricburn]

There's a London, Ohio? I knw about London, Canada, which makes sense, since it's a province of the British Empire, but Ohio? Must be from the colonial/land of discovery era.

just talkin 'bout your Z habit mate ;)

[Fat Pie]

just talkin 'bout your Z habit mate file:///C:/Users/John/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

Ah, seen.

Yes, that is why speedballs are more likely to cause overdoses than heroin alone, users are more likely to use more heroin in a shorter amount of time, then they would if they just stuck to using heroin alone.

I'd say that probably has more to do with a user's choice to shoot up than any impulse caused by the cocaine (and Heroin can be just as tempting to overuse too!), but I digress that it could be a factor in OD's; but that still doesn't have anything to do with a speedball supposedly being a toxic mixture.

Also because of vasoconstricting effects of the cocaine, and the short lasting effects, more frequent injections happen, and each injection is more likely to cause vein and tissue damage, also the frequent injections give the veins much less time to recover.

But that would be the cocaine, not the H, correct? That wouldn't be a consequence of the speedball in itself.

You will always get a shitty grade if you write a paper expecting your audience to know all of the terms that you know. You gotta write to the layman. Expect your audience to be dumb as a rock. And site your sources in the text. claim,proof(i.e. source).

This isn't a 'paper', it's just a post, and the sources I used either are in book or on websites I can't remember (except one which I just posted).

Yeah, the combination may not cause an OD but I can guarantee that it ain't good for ya

Oh, I'm not saying it can't cause an OD, but it won't be an automatically toxic combo. The H can certainly kill you, and the C can damage your heart.

stimulant=fast heart beat
depressent=slow heart beat
together=heart not knowing what the fuck to do

But that has nothing to do with breathing, which is what can kill you if you OD. A depressant will slow your breathing, but a stimulant wont affect it much, hence a speedball won't be responsible for stopped breathing, but alcohol and H combined will! The heart can only pump blood round the body, not oxygentae it, which is the heart's job (do I need to provide a link proving that as well; sorry, just joking!).

I'm sorry but that is horribly written.

Thanks for that. Very constructive.

You also contradict yourself a few times and are a little off on some of the facts you present. I can go into more detail if you want.

Would you clarify, considering I've spent ages writing and posting responses to my much-scrutinised article?

And why did you bother to read and then post on my 'horribly written' post (which is mysteriously devoid of spelling and grammatical errors. I can only assume you mean the style).

[Citricburn]

i didnt say that matey..your last quote ^^^

[Fat Pie]

i didnt say that matey..your last quote ^^^

Oh sorry. One sec...

I think a paper like this would be more appropriate for a medical class using actual case studies with medical examination and conclusive testing. Showing why the two together are not inherently dangerous with some sort of compiled data behind it would be a lot more convincing than an expanded logic equation.

I do think the theory is interesting, but without any real evidence to back it up it would be a hard argument to make.

For the essay you have right now I would suggest including some sources to back your claims up. Most of us on here think we know a whole lot about drugs. And a lot of us do know more than the average person. But, you have to take your audience into account. Spell out overdose instead of writing OD.

It's just a post, not a paper. I didn't spend hours writing it, or put my sources in, because I didn't think it would be scrutinised this much. In fact, I didn't think anyone would care.

Any proof of that or cases that you can site?

It's in the books of Frank Moraes. I also posted the experiments site in my previous posts just now.

Junkies are users. Might be better to refer to them (us) as heroin users.

No offense intended, just slang words creeping in through speedy writing.

Heroin can do plenty of damage as well. Just ask the hospital workers who brought my turning blue self back to this world.

But that damage is confined to one OD'ing, and then only because it stops somebody breathing.

It cannot physically damage someone in the same way that alcohol damages the liver, or cocaine damages the heart, or tobacco damages the lungs. One could live to old age on a Heroin habit even after OD'ing, but alcohol and tobacco kill unequivocally.

I hope some of that helps out in some way.

All comments are appreciated, ignore my bitching. It just takes a long time to write all this.

[Citricburn]

Sorry mate, 3rd one down on the post..it says it was posted by me..

'not I' said the rat!

[Papa Verine]

You will always get a shitty grade if you write a paper expecting your audience to know all of the terms that you know. You gotta write to the layman. Expect your audience to be dumb as a rock. And site your sources in the text. claim,proof(i.e. source).

Yeah, the combination may not cause an OD but I can guarantee that it ain't good for ya

stimulant=fast heart beat
depressent=slow heart beat
together=heart not knowing what the fuck to do

I beleive this is the part most of us agree is NOT an explanation of why the combination would be inherently dangerous. Hearts don't "get confused".

I think Woody Bear is right about the only reason the combination is more deadly than either drug used alone. I don't have any sources for my information, it's just my best guess. I could be completely wrong, so what?

[Fat Pie]

Sorry mate, 3rd one down on the post..it says it was posted by me..

'not I' said the rat!

Yeah, sorry 'bout that.

Hearts don't "get confused".[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's another point. It's the breathing one has to be concerned about in an OD, not the heart. Adding a stimluant and a depressant to a heart won't confuse it, it's not an intelligent being, it's just a muscle that pumps blood faster if it's stimulated, and slower if it's relaxed.

I think Woody Bear is right about the only reason the combination is more deadly than either drug used alone. I don't have any sources for my information, it's just my best guess. I could be completely wrong, so what?

It has nothing to do with toxicity, at least.

Anyway, I'm off to rest, my fingers hurt from all this typing. Time for a speedball.

Could all complaints about my 'paper' wait until Sunday? It's my birthday tomorrow, and I'd rather not have to answer a whole bunch of posts either constructively arguing against the finer points of my essay (as that's how it's been construed, for some reason), or just telling me that my OP is shit, and that I wasted my time doing it.

Preciate it.

[blackman]

I beleive this is the part most of us agree is NOT an explanation of why the combination would be inherently dangerous. Hearts don't "get confused".



I understand that hearts don't have thoughts and can't be "confused". I just used it as an example of the heart being under extreme stress when you introduce the combo of heroin and cocaine iv. And naturally I was trying to be funny. I guess it didn't work.:o

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

I understand that hearts don't have thoughts and can't be "confused". I just used it as an example of the heart being under extreme stress when you introduce the combo of heroin and cocaine iv. And naturally I was trying to be funny. I guess it didn't work.:o

oh DISAGREE - TIS perfect
just how I would explain -- funny works:D


and FATPIE -You did start the thread with- "This is a short essay"
hence the critique-
mutlit-mutli-multi quoting every FUCKING point doesn't help much either:rolleyes:


(me heart has toughts ,feeling, occasional skip beat-which confuses the fuck out of me):confused:

[blackman]

oh DISAGREE - TIS perfect
just how I would explain -- funny works:D

(me heart has toughts ,feeling, occasional skip beat-which confuses the fuck out of me):confused:



Awesome, GnD! I'm glad someone found it amusing.
I thought the metaphor worked well.
I know Papa got it! He was just trying to clarify, I'm sure.
What does your heart exactly say GnD? Maybe "WHY you treat me so BAd!?!"
Na, that's probably just my heart.
God dammit I wanna speedball.:(

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

ME batter, broken, spit upon, left alone to dry, HEART
upon awaking " WHY AM I STILL BEATING"
every fucking morning


(me too want speedball- tanks fatpie):mad:

[Thanat0s]

oh DISAGREE - TIS perfect
just how I would explain -- funny works:D


and FATPIE -You did start the thread with- "This is a short essay"
hence the critique-
mutlit-mutli-multi quoting every FUCKING point doesn't help much either:rolleyes:


(me heart has toughts ,feeling, occasional skip beat-which confuses the fuck out of me):confused:

HAW HAW HAW!

[Fat Pie]

I understand that hearts don't have thoughts and can't be "confused". I just used it as an example of the heart being under extreme stress when you introduce the combo of heroin and cocaine iv. And naturally I was trying to be funny. I guess it didn't work.file:///C:/Users/John/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

Well, depressants really don't mess with the heart all that much, or 'slow' it down. Depressants only make you feel relaxed, which stops your heart from beating too fast; the chemicals don't 'slow' the muscles down, they just help your muscles relax, but no more so than lying in bed helps one relax.

It's the part of the brain that controls breathing via the lungs that is really affected. Hence, a stimulant will only affect the heart chemically (making it beat faster) but not the lungs (you won't start breathing faster uncontrollably, as with your heartbeat, which is controlled by a certain part of the brain that deals with involuntary processes that you have no control of, such as heartbeat).

On the other hand, a depressant will affect the lungs physically (you will breathe slower), but not the heart (your heartbeat won't suddenly slow down). Thus, a stimulant and depressant combined will not be toxic, nor will it cause a bad reaction by making the bodies function go both ways, or in one direction excessively (i.e. up or down fatally), because different parts of the brain/body are affected.

Consequently, a depressant and a depressant, like alcohol and Heroin, both enhance the depressive quality of one another on the lungs, which can cause cessation of breathing, but not many people know this anymore; they believe a speedball to be the deadly combination, but alcohol and Heroin to be okay, which is the wrong way round.

oh DISAGREE - TIS perfect
just how I would explain -- funny worksfile:///C:/Users/John/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif


and FATPIE -You did start the thread with- "This is a short essay"
hence the critique-
mutlit-mutli-multi quoting every FUCKING point doesn't help much eitherfile:///C:/Users/John/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gif


(me heart has toughts ,feeling, occasional skip beat-which confuses the fuck out of me)file:///C:/Users/John/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.gif

a) I just covered blackman's ‘heart confusion’ point above.

b) Sorry about that, I didn't mean an essay in the academic sense, I simply meant that my OP was supposed to be a statement, as opposed to a question. I just didn't want everyone to have to read all the way through my post to find that out, in case the title wasn't very clear.

c) Sorry about the multi-quoting too. I used to do it on the 'JFK' forum on IMDb so that I could respond to comments and arguments directed at me individually, otherwise everything would get too confusing, as people wouldn't know who was responding to who. It was a common technique used by IMDb posters, and I simply used it here to reply to all the complaints and issues raised about my 'essay'; I would have had to do even more typing otherwise, but I do have to admit, it does look awfully cluttered.

d) Go to the doctor! You might need a pacemaker!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I think it's time to let this thread die (even though I technically just added this thread to the top of the discussion pile, adding it to the 'Recent Threads' leaderboard by posting in it: duh!). It's my birthday tomorrow, and I certainly won't be around to discuss it, or have to think about it throughout that day. I'm not trying to play the sympathy card, but I don't want this thread to turn into a carbon-copy of the infamous NY Hippie opening thread (aka: the case of the missing kilo! Oh, and a rifle too, how could I forget?), where I end up arguing with everyone on the forum over my rather controversial essay 'till the cows come home, earning the wrath of opies and mods alike.

Thus I think the issue should be left alone, and not argued further. If you wish to believe my statements, and look up the info I've written down on the internet or in the books/website I suggested to check up on some of the statements I made, then you're welcome to. If you don't believe me and think I'm full of shit, then so be it, you're entitled to your opinion. However, I would like to stress that this was never meant to be an academic essay, or to be graded/examined so seriously and so thoroughly. It was just meant to be a post on a topic that I felt was both a dangerous and unfounded myth. I'm sorry if my meaning was construed the wrong way, if I sounded like I was condoning speedballs/saying that they were safe (I stressed exactly the opposite in my OP), or if my post came across as condescending/pretentious. If you got that impression from what I wrote, I offer my unreserved apologies to you.

I won't be responding any more after this post, and I would appreciate if no one would argue any more points. I don't want this to turn into a 13 page diatribe of arguments and defence, where blows are traded forever, with both sides too afraid to give in. If you accept my hypothesis, then fair enough. If you don't, then that is your choice. "To each his own", as they say. If you wish to look up this issue on the internet because you're still interested in the issue, then you are welcome to, but I don't know how much you'll find. As for this thread, let's let bygones be bygones, eh?

And now, I will retire to take a speedball (seeing as how it has just turned midnight, and I am now -- years old!); join me if you can/if you want to (but be careful if you do. Speedballs can kill, I said so in my 'essay'); if you can't, but want to, then I apologise for my greed in the face of your bad luck. If you don't want to, or you hate me (or both), then spit in my face and bid me goodnight.

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

OK - BASICALLY YOU GOT A HARD ON FOR SPEED-BALLS
we get it
BUT
I know of no one spiking alcohol w/ H (am sure theres a few)
and tobacco?
huh="tobacco kill unequivocally."
its like 15-20% of cancer patient are smoker (off top of head)


HAPPY B .Day -bro :)

[blackman]

Obviously you did not get the joke.
Dude. You cannot justify the safeness of speadballs no matter how many multi-source quotes you use.
I also think it's funny how you argue your point and then say "let's let this thread die".
And yes, happy birthday!

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

"d) Go to the doctor! You might need a pacemaker!"

NO WAY DUDE!
one thing fer sure
NO ONE GETS OUT OF LIFE ALIVE ---:)


GOODNIGHT thread
no hate on thee board-
spread thee love mang

[blackman]

Yes, GnD. I agree. much love.

[Citricburn]

i dont mean to put you on the spot fat pie mate, but are you really a smack user? or are you a well educated fantasist? the reason I say is because you have a lot of contradicting posts, your first post for example was sayin you didnt know where to get citric acid and you were using tablets, surely if your cooking up white n gear you know you need a decent acid...

[Fat Pie]

OK - BASICALLY YOU GOT A HARD ON FOR SPEED-BALLS
we get it
BUT
I know of no one spiking alcohol w/ H (am sure theres a few)
and tobacco?
huh="tobacco kill unequivocally."
its like 15-20% of cancer patient are smoker (off top of head)


HAPPY B .Day -bro file:///C:/Users/John/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

Not a hard on for them, more like a curiosity about them (an intellectual hard on, maybe); I hardly ever take them, since it's so difficult to guarantee getting both at the same time, so I reserve them for special occasions.

Many people drink and do H at the same time, which is very dangerous, and accounts for the majority of death's that get labelled simply 'Heroin overdoses' (because no one cares how we junkies kick the bucket; it easier to just say he/she OD'd than to actually investigate the cause of death properly).

And what I mean by saying 'tobacco kills unequivocally' is that if one smokes for long enough, a very high chance of cancer arises, which can be deadly (and is, for 5 million people a year).It is without a doubt the deadliest drug in terms of lives taken each year.

Thanks for the B. Day compliment!

i dont mean to put you on the spot fat pie mate, but are you really a smack user? or are you a well educated fantasist? the reason I say is because you have a lot of contradicting posts, your first post for example was sayin you didnt know where to get citric acid and you were using tablets, surely if your cooking up white n gear you know you need a decent acid...

I am most certainly a Heroin user; I have been for nearly 2 years now. I wouldn't be on here if I wasn't. I know that most people wouldn't even think of 'pretending' to be an H user, but I can think of some imbeciles who thought it might be 'cool' to try and ingratiate themselves with a bunch of H users because they can't get the drug themselves, and want to increase the size of their e-dicks by getting kudos and praise for their drug exploits, whilst knowing almost nothing about Heroin use itself. That is plausible, considering you've never met me; I could well be lying, for all you know. It would be hard for me to 'prove' otherwise, even through pics! Then again, you might be lying too, but I'm sure you aren't (you tick all the right knowledge boxes and even showed pics, which would take a lot of dedication to fake! Still, we can never be sure, because we will never meet one another). However, give me a chance to respond to your queries.

My posts don't contradict; let me explain. At first, I didn't know you needed to use acid to break down British H. I just added water and heated it, drawing up a clear liquid from the spoon. It still got me very high, because I had no tolerance, but after a while, I found out about needing to use acid to break the dope down. I went to 'Boots' looking for Vitamin C, and chose a bottle of 'Haliborange Vitamin C Tablets'. I broke up one of the large tablets, added it to H sitting in water in a spoon; it bubbled up, I heated the solution, and when the bubbles cleared, I could see that the dope powder had turned into an amber/orange liquid, with a little bit of undissolved substance (what must have been 'cut') lying on the top, kind of like oil on top of water. I put in a ball of cotton, drew the liquid, shot up, and got very high, higher than I had been when I didn't use Vitamin C. So my acid is more than decent, it works perfectly, dissolves the dope properly, doesn't burn etc. I don't know where to get citric acid from, and since my Vitamin C tablets work fine and I'm used to them, I'll stick to using them for now.

That sequence of explanation cannot be found anywhere on the internet (where info about brown dope and Vitamin C is particularly barren/underinformed, especially regarding ordinary Haliborange tablets, which no one seems to know about; but I'm sure a few people use it), so I can't have just ripped that off. Still, there's no way I can 'prove' 100% that I am a dope user. Is there any proof I can provide you with that you'd like, questions I can answer, anything you want to know from me that a user should know but no one else should, info you can't get off the internet, pictures (which still wouldn't prove I use dope, like I said when you posted pictures, the 'dope' you were smoking could have just been chocolate).

Finally, what exactly was contradictory about my posts?

[Larkin]

I scanned the whole thread but didnt read deep into it. The chris farley thing... I am pretty sure he was doing heroin but by the time he was clinically dead it had metabolized into morph. I thought that was the whole reason heroin was as terribly wonderful as it was. The Diamorph is turned into MAM and the crosses the BBB VERY fast. Then its metabolized into morph. That was my vague understanding, i may be a little off, but one fact i DO know is that heroin turns into morphine in the body. I think (and i read/heard) that is the whole reason they said he was doing morph.

but back to the essay...

English was always my worst subject, i am more of a math minded person. But... I think like said, you need to site sources and prove your whole essay isnt conjecture, which is what your calling "the dangers of a speedball" in the first place. If you are going to try and dismiss something that has killed a lot of people, you need a hell of a lot more evidence than the original statement.

[Fat Pie]

Sorry to resurrect this thread again, I just wanted to provide a last answer to these questions (which I was unable to do on Sunday, for unspecified reasons). Let it die after this post please.

I scanned the whole thread but didnt read deep into it. The chris farley thing... I am pretty sure he was doing heroin but by the time he was clinically dead it had metabolized into morph. I thought that was the whole reason heroin was as terribly wonderful as it was. The Diamorph is turned into MAM and the crosses the BBB VERY fast. Then its metabolized into morph. That was my vague understanding, i may be a little off, but one fact i DO know is that heroin turns into morphine in the body. I think (and i read/heard) that is the whole reason they said he was doing morph.

You're quite right. Heroin metabolises into morphine once it crosses the blood/brain barrier, and the instability of its half-life (i.e. the speed with which it breaks down) makes it an idea intravenous drug. Heroin is the proverbial 'keg' that carries the morphine, or 'beer', to the party. Thus the morphine makes one high, not the heroin itself, it's just a quicker way of getting it into the brain and attached to the opiate receptors.

On Farley's death certificate, it suggests that he died of acute morphine and cocaine intoxication, although it does not indicate whether morphine or heroin is what he took. I suspect the latter is most likely, since the probability of Farley having medicinal morphine is quite slim. His heart was enlarged, his liver was fatty, and his weight was enormous; thus is very unlikely his death was via a 'speedball'; it seems that large amounts of cocaine exacerbated his heart, large amounts of heroin stopped his breathing, and the general condition of his body and organs just helped contribute to his untimely death (I've seen the pics of his corpse: sprawled out on the floor, grossly overweight, his face purple and his mouth foaming; not a pretty site at all).

but back to the essay...

English was always my worst subject, i am more of a math minded person. But... I think like said, you need to site sources and prove your whole essay isnt conjecture, which is what your calling "the dangers of a speedball" in the first place. If you are going to try and dismiss something that has killed a lot of people, you need a hell of a lot more evidence than the original statement.

a) My post was never meant to be considered an academic piece, and I don't know why many people considered it as such.

b) I was unable to provide links because they were either from books, or from websites I had forgotten. However, I managed to post the books I got some info from, by Frank Moraes, and the website with opiate info (especially on speedballs) and animal experiments pertaining to speedballs (check them out; I doubt they'll cover everything, but it's a start). The rest was logical science, which hardly needs to be backed up. Opiate receptors and dopamine release are well known basics of drug use and the brain.

c) You've just contradicted yourself: can you provide a link as evidence to support your statement that the speedball 'has killed a lot of people'? Speedball's have reputedly killed several celebrities, but just as in many cases of heroin 'overdoses' (which turned out to not have been solely from heroin, but combined with alcohol or benzos), the causes of death turn out to be from something completely different; John Belushi was overweight to begin with, and had been shot full of heroin and cocaine all night, even when unconscious! The fact that he stopped breathing is unattributable to cocaine, it's the effect of a cumulative heroin overdose. Chris Farley was also overweight and in poor health, with cocaine and heroin affecting two separate areas that lead to his death, rather than a result of them interacting together. The many deaths attributed to speedballs have not been because the drugs somehow interacted together to create a toxic substance, but because too much heroin was used or another drug that affects breathing, such as alcohol or benzos were taken. As I've stated before, heroin and cocaine affect two different parts of the brain; coke stimulates the heart, heroin slows down breathing. Each of these effects can kill by themselves, but there is no strange drug interaction between the two that is either toxic or deadly to any part of the body (the only cumulative effect that the two have is to raise dopamine levels very high, which certainly isn't a deadly side effect).

Anyway, sorry for resurrecting this thread, please allow it to die.

[Thanat0s]

well i love speedballs, danger is overrated in media

and i posted just to
splash this threadn
back up top.
in all its trainwreck glory

[The_Highwayman]

The only factual error I saw was that you stated that the devil ensnared Adam and Eve to make up for his failure to tempt Jesus. Adam and Eve were lured by the devil in the book of Genesis in the Old Testament. The tempting of Jesus, either in the desert or on the cross is in the Gospels in the New Testament. A simple correction to this analogy could be to say it was retribution for his expulsion from heaven when he was the angel Sataniel...

[pdxninja]

so two things i think we (or at least me) should take away from this thread

1) just be careful with your dose

2) speedballs are gods gift to his brave children.

settled.