opiates......where do they stand?

[Coddfish]

Reading some of the posts lately has made me realize (over and over) that opiate users really occupy a terrible spot in society.

Deaths, illnesses, poor medical care, bullshit arrests and imprisonment.

For some reason I am feeling more of a connection with the people I have read about who suffer--directly and indirectly-- under governement drug policies. My question is, are we a persecuted group lacking civil rights--like gays and minorities past and present--or just a bunch of fools who made bad choices? Is this another version of a civil rights movement? Is it for pain sufferers but not for 'recreational users?'

I thought about doing this as a poll, but couldn't figure out how to put it. Just thoughts, I guess.

[Phluck]

Well, I don't think we can quite claim to be a persecuted group at the same level as gays or blacks once were... unlike other groups, we can't claim that we didn't have a choice.

However, there are chronic pain sufferers who truly are persecuted. People who, even beyond withdrawal symptoms, need opiates to function, yet are treated like shit by many doctors, pharmacists, insurance companies, and sometimes police.

Opiates truly made my life a lot better, problems didn't start until my access was cut off. If I had an affordable, steady supply, I have no idea what would be wrong with that. But nobody wants to give a young, seemingly healthy guy opiates. Nope, whatever he has to suffer through is better than opiate addiction.

Opiate addiction, we're all told, is a horrific nightmare. Frankly, my experience has been different... it's trying to escape opiate addiction that's the nightmare, sticking to it is actually quite pleasant.

[ZodiacKiller]

See, I'm the kind of opiate user that never had a legit medical use or script for them that led me to addiction. I just love to get high, plain and simple. Back about 6 years ago I was coming to the end of an almost 20 year affair with booze and cocaine. I'd just had enough, and the hangovers were killing me--becoming way worse than they'd ever been.

So I quit both (it's a long, convoluted story--see my JL blog if you wanna know the whole sordid story), and became sober for an entire year. Well, except for weed--on that I think I'm a lifer. Well, that's when I discovered opiates. An ex gave me a little pink pill (it was an OC 20mg, but I didn't know that at the time) and said "try this, you might like it, but don't plan on driving". So I did and HOLY MOTHERFUCKING SHIT! I was in love instantly, and back then you could get 'em on the street dirt cheap. I remember getting fifty 40mg OCs for 35 dollars!

Well, it's been the only drug for me since...Then when I hooked up with the gal who would become my wife and found out she too had an affinity for "happy pills", as we call 'em, well, we just started doing 'em more and more, and well, everyone knows this story: cut to the chase and where are we today? Oh, gosh, only addicted to heroin, have monster tolerances, are in a Suboxone program but still use, and have spent over 30 grand at least on opiates. Yet we still use, function normally in society, etc.. We are responsible, functional addicts. And I still fucking love to get high, plain and simple, and don't sit around whining to whomever will listen that "oh, pity poor me, look what society has done to me, where do I turn, what do I do, boo-hoo"..

Sorry to ramble in this thread, but I think all this prefaces the question: where do I fit in with the parameters you've laid out in your post? Do I deserve any sympathy for falling victim to the horrible disease of addiction? I've done it all by choice, after all, haven't I? So maybe in my worst moments (during withdrawal, of course), maybe I am just a fool who made bad choices. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but even with a smack-monkey on my back the size of a gorilla, I still wanna get high. I crave it when I'm not on it, and when I am on it I revel in it's glories. So, am I shit for a person, then? Life is the great indulgence, friends--and any one of us could check out tomorrow, so fuck it, I say, I am gonna get high.

I will say that the the drug laws in this country are utterly medieval, and legit pain sufferers are getting the shaft. And is it because of users like me? I dunno, I don't hurt anyone with my choice of indulgence, do I? Except maybe the economy, and that don't need help from me to fuck itself up :rolleyes: So, where do I stand in this line of inquiry? And I know I'm not the only one here who gets high for the sake of it...

Ok, done now, good, interesting thread!


ZK

PS Currently listening to: Zappa/Beefheart 'Bongo Fury'

[jonnyweather]

Damn, you just said everything i feel. i do it for the sake of getting high, plain and simple. and the war on drugs is the biggest waste of money and the laws are ridiculous. can you imagine if prohibition would of stuck? i want the burrough's life, traveling the world and following the no hassle areas for junk. its like the endless junk summer, chasin junk around the globe. but i have a responsibility with work and wife, so i deal with my situation in a responsible way. god if i only had a trust fund and apathy. . .

[DaOxyMan]

(See ZK's post)

[Opiyum]

In a weird way I would say that it would be terrible if those of different race or sexual preference had to deal with certain aspects of the opiate users life. What this says I guess is that you cant outlaw and imprison those who didnt choose but you can persecure them. Enslave then free only to cast down. Take away their ability to marry. Hate.
So is it worse when its self-inflicted? Is the difference choice. Of course being gay is considered a choice when you talk to certain people.
We are a minority by definition but its always been the misfortune of those in any minority to not get their way.
All three groups are persecuted by many different means of brainwashing, nation-wide, that subliminally create such oppositions. THe bitch is that there are real life, first hand(to the individual), experiences that only support the notion that the acts/beliefs/misfortunes/ways are true to all who are of the same persuasion.
I quote a Narles Barkly song.
Paraphrasing:"Love is all I need or want but Im an animal so what to do with all this aggression I've got?"

It's just part of the Human condition and when humans see what others of their kind are or are doing sometimes it frightens them. A reaction in one way or another is inevitable....
I dont know if I could have responded to this in a more glass half full kinda way....


I got my inte-rest ris-ing. dun dan dun dan daaaaan dun......

[antigonemuse]

i will never claim i have not had fun... that being said

I also suffer from chronic pain, and if you have read my recent horror story thread, you know whats going on right now. I am feeling the ignorance of a part of the medical community who does not understand that opiates are the only thing that work for some. If my treatment had not been inturpted by my doc leaving due to stroke, I would never be in the boat I am now... being cut off, and ping ponged from doc to doc to find the one brave enoough to sucscribe to the ethics of treating pain with meds that work, with minimal side effects


strange how a doc will give me seruqueol, or zyprexa to treat migrianes (i wouldnt dare treat pain with anti psychotics) but wont throw me a bone, and write for OC.

there are advocacy groups out there for pain sufferes to support the use of opiates...

BUT TO PUT IT SIMPLE

ME LIKES OPIES FOR FUN
AND ME ALSO NEEDS OPIES FOR PAIN
AND EQUATION FOR ADDICTION = OH NO--REGULATIONS
CAUSE THE DOCS WANNA SAVE THEIR ASSES
AND THE GOV. WANTS TO MAKE MORE MONEY OF MEDS THAT THEY COST MORE MONEY (IE ZYPREXA)
AHHH, HMOS, PPO, HIPAA DID YOU KNOW HIPAA LAWS RECENTLY CHANGED (WEELL LAST YEARISH) AND NOT TO PROTECT YOU LIKE IT SEEMS... BUT TO FURTHER PRIVATIZE INSURANCE COMPANIES

fucking barbies,,, what was i saying


lol

[Paregoric Kid]

of course we're persecuted. people are getting thrown in jail because of plants and their alkaloids and analoges. jailed for taking medicine. it's bullshit. get the government out of the medicine cabinet. we don't need special rights or anything like that, just get rid of the bullshit laws and give our freedom back. we aren't free when we don't have the right to do what we want with our own bodies. federal drug laws break constitutional law. they are fucking with state's rights, personal freedom, and the free market.

[opiobsessed]

Here's a thread where I fit right in, I'm definately a minority in a few ways, but as focus on main topic, I did Not become a junkie by choice. My life started falling apart steadily at 19 when I developed chronic ulcerative colitis, never knew about opiates back then at all, all I knew was booze and my dad starting me drinking when I was 17. Well long story short, I had my first major surgery in 94, whole colon removed, yep the whole damn thing. I was on demerol a day or two before the surgery, then after surgery, I remember I had some epidural which was removed shortly after. Then I had the morphine pump to push, that's when I discovered how wonderful opiates made me feel. Well as normal, they quickly lowered the morph dose till the day I went home, then they took the morphine pump and iv out etc. Sent me home with lame darvocet with refills, that was my first withdrawal experience. The next afternoon I woke up to take a shower and when I was done, all of a sudden I almost passed out, had to be helped back into bed and started shaking, sneezing, getting colder and colder and all. I wound up back in the hospital for a day or two, they said I was hooked on the morphine, gave me clonidine and talked something about the meth clinic which I had no idea what it was back then. I was clean for a few years, went back to drinking, that was until I just always got sick and hungover on booze and I said fuck alcohol this stuff does no good. That's the time when the bottle went south and opiates merged into my life permanently when I had another surgery. That's when I finally met a compassionate doctor who gave me plenty of vicodin after the personal and awful surgery I went through then. I get so worked up nowadays and worried about the whole situation that I would die before I would see the day come when this whacked out world wipes out all the opiates from earth. I just had this awful feeling right after 9/11 that it all was planned out just so they could really have an excuse to wage a real war on drugs, think about it, afghanistan is a big opium producer. This year, I really felt like its closing in on me when I had my 4th major surgery at my local hospital. I felt I was treated like a worthless junkie, like it was my fault, rather than any compassion whatsoever or even worthy pain meds after to boot. The way things are looking these days, I fear I may have to make a run for it, sad to have to leave my family behind and head to another country where I can freely get opiates, I know I'm really outta hand now, but I can't help it this crap going on these days has got me worried and being down healthwise makes it even worse to the point I dont even enjoy my hobbies anymore. All I can think about right now is if only a fairy god would drop a huge bottle of a hundred thousand oxy in my yard and I just run out and grab it, or wake up someday soon and hear great news all of a sudden that the dea is leaving pain control up to the patient and has a whole new compassionate outlook on this. Something must be done about this mess, everyone around where I live is just full of money and think they got it so great, well they dont give a shit about unfortunate people like us, so we must do something ourselves. I dont know everyone but something's gotta change for the better, this just sucks bigtime.

[antigonemuse]

antigone <3 PK
i love it when you add your wit and wisdom

[HistoryofMadness]

My question is, are we a persecuted group lacking civil rights--like gays and minorities past and present--or just a bunch of fools who made bad choices? Is this another version of a civil rights movement? Is it for pain sufferers but not for 'recreational users?'



Nah, nobody deserves special rights... that's just another form of discrimination. I wouldn't say fools making bad decisions either. Wouldn't an extremely fat person be in the same place we are if there were laws that limited food consumption.

I am with PK in his conclusion (although not by his premise)... the government should consider the ass-loads of money it could make off of taxing... the problem is that the system in place is so complicated it will take a long time to dismantle. I think it is already happening...

As for pain v. recreation, I think anyone who puts up with the crazy rollercoaster of emotions, and with the black market, etc has some reason they really need either opiates or some other treatment. If there was more of a hands-off approach, and some understanding and empathy from the medical community, life would be much more normal for addicts.

Think about fad diets being fad tolerance-reducers, for example. Much like society tells us fat is bad (not just for aesthetics, but for health) we could pressure moderation as a virtue. Like Wild Irish Rose there would be cheap fixes for those in a crunch.

Anyway our society is pretty flexible and could accept drugs as part of the culture, where it could be much less rebelious (gambling at churches by old ladies etc), and much of the criminal activity could be dissolved by the social mechanisms that keep people from eating themselves to death, driving as fast as they can, etc.

And the money, from taxes, could be turned back to the medical community for health treatment, because addiction wouldn't be a problem like it is now.... blah blah I guess I should write a book sorry for the chatter... I do feel strongly...

[superman]

are we a persecuted group lacking civil rights--like gays and minorities past and present--or just a bunch of fools who made bad choices?

I think we are victims of those who stand to lose money by legalizing drugs. the doctors, the pharmaceutical companies, probably countless other groups. the entire population lacks civil rights. not just the users, but even the non-users who are missing out on some of the most amazing experiences in life.

We are victims of american right-wing politicians, and this is probably who is most to blame today, exporting thier laws and ideals around the world enforcing them with tarrifs, sanctions, bombs and fire.

But all we can do is try and affect the world around us. The change is happening, more so in some places than in others. I got pulled over with open alcohol, a massive glass bong and weed. yet i was only ticketed for not stopping at the stop sign.

Compassion clubs are staying open. Marijuana can be smoked freely in front of police at festivals in Toronto. Needle exchanges are popping up everywhere.

I think the biggest problem is that people who grew up in the prohibitionist era are still alive. I say give it 50 years and drugs will be legal in north america.

Today's youth are unlike any that have been born before. Communication is so effective that they no longer turn out so similar to thier parents. Propaganda has competition. Religion has lost it's strangehold. Medical science has proven the safety of many of our favorite drugs.

All that remains is to remove those in power. IMO the most effective way to do this is with assloads of money used to gain political power. wouldn't it be ironic if the money used to remove the dinosours from power was generated by the prohibition they set in place?

done now

[chemboy7]

Fuck yes drug users are persecuted... haven't you ever seen Cops. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about people getting being beaten and thrown in prison losing years of their lives just because they choose to put a certain substance in their bodies. It's not a safety or public health issue thing either... I mean the government could give a rat's ass if I decided to eat some Cyanide or shoot lighter fuild into the base of my penis; but if I smoke a joint... oh no buddy, your going to jail. It's fucking bullshit, prohibition laws are just another way for the government to slowly take away your rights one by one while still calling themselves a "free country". Ever hear of "the right to persue happiness"? The founding fathers of this country would call bullshit on these tyranical mind control tactics!


My question is, are we a persecuted group lacking civil rights--like gays and minorities past and present--or just a bunch of fools who made bad choices?

A bunch of fools that made bad choices??? Who care's if they are, it is their choice to make and it doesn't effect you or the government. As for the question "are we minorities", I don't think so... we are legion. Everyone has a DOC, some people drink coffee, some people get a rush talking down to people, for some it's the "holier than thou" attitude that provides the rush, some shoot dope, and some arrogant assholes in the DEA get high off making sure you don't.

[Paregoric Kid]

the government should consider the ass-loads of money it could make off of taxing...
taxation is theft. the government should have a monopoly on force and they should only use force against people that initiate force. taxation is using force against people to steal their money. you cannot justify theft, no matter if it's to give to elderly cancer patients, or lazy people that want a free ride, you cannot justify it. the US has been around much longer than the IRS. the treasury should be getting their money through non-coercive ways. ways that do not require the use of force. for example: raffles, lotteries, user fees. require a fee for legal enforcement of certain things (kind of like trademarks, copyrights, etc.). trust funds, etc. etc. there are so many ways to make money and make money off of that money and if they'd get rid of most of the government waste we would have no need for the government to be stealing from it's own citizens. we had a revolution because of taxation and now we have more taxes than ever. fuck taxation, fuck theft.

[Coddfish]

See, whether for pain or 'pleasure', most junkies use because life seems unbearable without; EW has commented on the commonalities before, and I agree. How many times have you guys read or written:
---"I finally accepted I am gonna be on opiates for the rest of my life," or
---"once an addict always an addict?"

That is kinda saying that there is no choice. I mean gays could choose to be celibate, but they would still be gay. We could choose not to use (many do), but we'd still be opiophiles. In both cases people would be denying who they are, and suffering because of it.

I can see some parallels.

Basically, I think this is a civil rights issue, but not really a movement, I guess. Could be, maybe, I dunno.

If it is, then we need our MLKs and our Xs to step up to the microphone.

[candyshop]

aside from the issue of the complete and utter lunacy of making victimless "crimes" crimes,and the totally bizarre view that adult human beings do not own thier bodies and cannot do as they like with them or to them, there is the pain v.recreation question-i do not think i know anyone that does drugs purely for recreational purposes -there are many ,many types of pain -all of them valid in my view and no one is in a position to measure the quality or quantity of anothers suffering -(boredom hurts too;)) and if it is all about choice i get sick as hell of having the weight of one choice defining me for most people rather than being measured for everything else that i am- that is the root of prejudice -why is it never enough for people to
simply be responsible for there own decisions and let others do the same -i disagree with many things that others do but if it involves no one else i am plenty content to mind my own beeswax-LEGALISE IT ALL- prostitution,gambling,group samesex buttsex marathons,polygamy,shooting pcp into your eyeballs-i really cannot fathom how anyone with a lick of sense cannot see what a lower crime/better economy/more fun place the world would be (i know this ain't exactly the topic) BUT everybody got thier something weird they like tucked away and maybe if it was ok to let it all hang in the open ,free and proud, then maybe mr.jones would see that his martini is my line of oc and pastor bob would see that his 18 yr.old hooker is butchs' fellas only daisy chain and we would stop judging each other as if any one of us is coming from a point of righteousness ...ahhh.maybe not -i am totally over tea'd and rambling - apologies

[Paregoric Kid]

the recreation vs. medication argument is not relevant if you believe you have the right to your own body. if you have the right to yourself what does it matter what you do with it or why you choose to do what you do with it.

[jab]

Agreed, but only with the stipulation that your rights end when you are becoming a burdon to society. I agree that we should be free to put whatever we want in our bodies, as long as it doesn't affect others (DUI, theft, etc).

But that is what laws are for.. for the protection of people and their rights.. the rights to do as they choose.

I agree with Candyshop.. we need to focus on crimes and their victims.. not victim-less crimes.


the recreation vs. medication argument is not relevant if you believe you have the right to your own body. if you have the right to yourself what does it matter what you do with it or why you choose to do what you do with it.

[Paregoric Kid]

hold people who commit REAL crimes responsible. don't punish non-violent users and sellers. their actions are what is relevant not what medicine was in their system at the time.

[HistoryofMadness]

taxation is theft.
Over-taxation is theft... but a small amount of taxation is necessary and always will be... we are a pretty intelligent group here, and if the whole world were made up of us, maybe we could rule ourselves with no government... but there are more people, crazy (really) and stupid and just plain angry and violent... criminal people... that will always have to be dealt with.

But decriminalization of drugs is an attainable goal... and I agree with the above statement that its a matter of the Reefer Madness Generation making its way out of power.

Here's the kicker though... if more young people voted, without wasting their vote on hopeless third parties, those old fuckers wouldn't have so much power. But they vote and we don't (I do but most don't) so we can't really complain.

To get fair drug policy start by just voting. When they poll and see that younger people are voting, that's where the attention will go.


hold people who commit REAL crimes responsible. don't punish non-violent users and sellers. their actions are what is relevant not what medicine was in their system at the time.

I think we can all agree here.

[slugbone]

Reading some of the posts lately has made me realize (over and over) that opiate users really occupy a terrible spot in society.

Deaths, illnesses, poor medical care, bullshit arrests and imprisonment.

Is it for pain sufferers but not for 'recreational users?'

I thought about doing this as a poll, but couldn't figure out how to put it. Just thoughts, I guess.

what bugs me also, is the doctors that perscribe painkillers on the net are considered the devil incarnate. so they make a buck giving pills to people who want them...what the fuck?

why is this considered so goddamn wrong? i sure as hell don't have a problem if you or anyone else wants to get some oxy and get high, or someone in chronic pain that has to supplement the bullshit amount they get from their regular doctors.

yeah i drink tea and get high. and i have gobbled up every fucking opium relatied thing i could get my hands on...but over time you learn to manage your gorilla, you know how much you need to get high and start handling your "relationship with miss opie" responsibly.

i am so sick of society thinking anyone who shoots up or pops pills in their house is a sonofabitch and should go to jail. but you can drink booze until it flows from your eyeballs and noooo problems. when was the last time you heard of somebody on opiates getting crazy and violent? half the fucking time when i'm high i won't even leave my sofa to eat a bowl of Capn Crunch, much less go out and cause mayhem.

[Paregoric Kid]

why is this considered so goddamn wrong?
because sometime around the 20s a judge ruled that doctors could not prescribe narcotics to addicts.

[Paregoric Kid]

Over-taxation is theft... but a small amount of taxation is necessary and always will be... we are a pretty intelligent group here, and if the whole world were made up of us, maybe we could rule ourselves with no government... but there are more people, crazy (really) and stupid and just plain angry and violent... criminal people... that will always have to be dealt with.


you are reading into some posts things that are not there. I am not an anarchist, I am not a conservative, I'm a libertarian. I believe the constitution should be followed without exception. it is a very clear and easy to read document. for example when it says that congress shall pass NO LAW that infringes freedom of speech, it means, NO, LAW. there is no need for complex or abstract interpretation, it is so damn clear.

no, taxation is theft. what do you call it when someone forces you (with guns) to give them your money? they have no legitimate claim on money that they are not earning. the most fair way to collect revenue is to have the government provide a service and charge for it.
there are many, many ways to collect revenue without using force. I listed some examples. there are states that don't have taxes. New Hampshire has very, very few taxes. I'm not just some nut job with a utopian vision. I'm advocating fair policies that have worked and do work. I'm saying the government can collect it's revenue through ways that allow people to optionally give the government money. user fees, lotteries, etc. see my other post for more examples.
every generation that grew up in the mid to late 20th century is basically made to believe that the government couldn't function without agencies that were created in the early 20th century, it's simply not true.
again, I was not advocating anarchy. no need to get rid of the military, congress, the president, the court system, etc. these are legitimatle branches of government that are provided for in the constitution.

[DaOxyMan]

i do not think we can consider ourselves in the same class as blacks or even gays..this is not the same outright persecution, especially since there was an initial choice by most (except CP sufferers). There are not mobs of opiate users being hosed in the streets by swat teams as they go to pick up their needles at the exchange, no segregation...it is no where near the same level. Not to say the laws aren't archaic and i'm not all for a 'legalization/monitoring' system of some kind for those who wish to take opiates, as many of us will "be an addict forever"...as far as laws being 'stupid' for persecuting us for taking plant alkaloids that we put into our bodies, i agree we should be able to do this...and nonviolent crimes should be met with treatment, but to whoever said sellers should be prosecuted...why? If the substance is supposedly justifiable to injest into the body, i do not see why the person who removes it from his pocket and places it in my hand should serve a lengthy jail sentence...Aspirin is legal but Bayer isn't being prosecuted...violent drug dealers should be placed in jail, but only for the 'violent' part, take the drugs out of the equation.

[superman]

"I'm saying the government can collect it's revenue through ways that allow people to optionally give the government money. user fees, lotteries, etc. see my other post for more examples."
this is so true. governments could so easily own corporations and companies and they SHOULD own companies that profit off natural resources. WE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWING THE OIL COMPAINES TO PILLAGE OUR LANDS. The government should harvest all the oil, and then sell it to refineries. right now we are getting fucked in the ass so goddamn hard we're bleeding to death. the corporate world is sucking us dry.

"nonviolent crimes should be met with treatment"
Why? i don't need or want treatment. i don't have a condition. i am not sick. punishment called treatment is still punishment.

"no segregation"
what do you call being locked behind bars with rapists, thieves and murderer's?
how about being forced to sit in a room full of crackheads or alcoholics?

"no where near the same level"
correct me if i am wrong but didn't the US decide that any college/university student caught with drugs by the police would have thier student loan revoked?
sounds a hell of a lot worse than what many gay's experience.
How about tommy chong? sentenced to 1 year for selling a bong
mandatory minumums are a way of stealing an individuals right to a fair trial, if you can even call it that.

If you ask me american drug users are the most victimized group in the country. and my suggestion to them all is vote with your feet!

[Paregoric Kid]

no not own companies at all, nothing like that. they could run lotteries, raffles, and user fees. fees for like document enforcement, etc. kind of like copyright and trademark services. there are non-coercive ways that keeps the government funded without being a private company. the government shouldn't be able to tell people what they can and cannot get from their own land. what's on private property should be the owners to exploit.

[Coddfish]

lotteries are a de facto tax, no one will convince me otherwise
an governments should NOT own companies, and companies should NOT own governments. profiting off of natural resources that belong to people, uh uh, not good. and not necessary, and implicitly unfair.
and as for addict being persecuted as badly as gays.....If every addict came out of the closet so to speak, we would rarely get jobs, no civil service careers, no schooling, possibly no housing, bad medical care, etc, etc, etc., .......basically the most blatant discrimination. That is persecution I think.

[Paregoric Kid]

when a person buys a lottery ticket they are willingly giving their money to the government. that is different from a tax, where the government just says, "hand it over or else!" there are private lotteries, state lotteries but no federal ones.

[karmacoma]

this post seems to have steered toward a more general discussion of drug policy. but i think the original question is pretty intersting.

my first reaction was that it sounds like a bunch of hogwash... but then again a lot of the pc ACLU nitpicking also closely resembles hogwash to me (i know this, even never haven actually seen hogwash).

but the more i tried to think of reasons the argument doesn't make sense, the more i came up with nothing. i'm quite sure that 'opiate users' are a minority. one definite difference is that it's not a black and white thing. there is a broad spectrum of users - from tried-it-once-and-maybe-i'd-do-it-again, all the way to out-and-out junky. i guess this is true for religion, maybe for homosexuality... and partly even for race. but it's not nearly as ambiguous as drug use.

if we (i mean you, i never touch the stuff) were to be catagorized as a minority, being persecuted, and seeking the rights afforded to other minorities, it would pose all sorts of problems. first to take part in any movement would be to admit committing a crime. and the biggest problem, i think, is that it would never work. recreational drugs other than alcohol have been demonized to the point that average americans (even the ones who smoke the occasional joint) have a knee-jerk reaction: drugs=bad.

i wish i could be as optomistic as superman about this, but i don't think our generation will necessarily change things... maybe. but look at our parents. forty years ago they were smoking weed out of feather pipes outside and rolling around in the mud, tripping out on stronger LSD than we'd be likely to come across nowadays. those are the same people who now scream in in front of abortion clinics, and gnash their rabid teeth at those who would 'murder' Terri Schiavo, and enter their pre-pubescent girls in beauty peagents.

anyway, i think the problem is much older - as some of you have mentioned. the men who wrote the constitution - our right-wing friends, who don't seem to read much, call them the Framers - were coming from the age of enlightenment, trying to create a workable government that respected certain ideals. today we don't have ideals, only rhetoric.

i think it all started around the time of the first census. when we started to compulsively compile statistics the idealistic basis of governing shifted. now, instead of idealistic inalienable rights, we started seeing 'social ills': crime, infant death rates, poverty, etc. now, a social ill is percieved: new polls show an increase in, say, drug use. and the response, or cure, to this social ill is wide-sread, coersive policy. this style of governing almost inherently tramples the old idealistic rights.

and even worse - and this is exactly where opiates stand - once something is pointed out as a social ill, it's very hard to reverse widespread opinion. it's hard even to have an honest and reasonable public discussion about it. drugs=bad. if you say anything else you might as well have said earth=round to a medieval knight.

[Phluck]

I think that addicts should be supplied with opiates if they want, but alternative treatments should be an option as well.

If you want to move to another country where drugs are even further persecuted, then you might want to do your best to get off opiates altogether.

Methadone maintenance is at least looking in the right direction, but I'm sure the only reason it came into play is because most people in the public think methadone is just some drug that makes people not want to get high.

But having to go to the clinic everyday is humiliating, and needlessly restrictive. Sure redirecting methadone can be a problem, but if any addict could be supplied with a satisfactory amount of heroin everyday then why would they need to redirect it? Who would want to pay street prices when they could just go to a clinic and get a prescription?

It should be legal for doctors to supply opiates to addicts. Most addicts, given their drugs would be able to live happy and productive lives. Attempts to quit are often painful and completely unsuccessful. Repeatedly so, and methadone can work, but it's certainly not perfect. Many people on methadone seek out other opiates because the meth just doesn't provide them with the good feelings they used to enjoy. God forbid someone actually feel some pleasure.

[superman]

"having to go to the clinic everyday is humiliating"
not to mention very few people have the luxury of being able to goto a clinic, i know for me this absolutely would not work. my work is incompatible with such a thing. not to mention the is no clinic where i live.

I think i would rather see addicts and former addicts take it upon themselves to treat thier addiction much in the same way AA came together, except on top of support, a poppy extract or some other very cheap source of opiates could be used.

I would certainly be willing to get together once a week with fellow addicts and weed a large crop of poppies, help harvest and process the crop. just imagine the friends you would make and the rock solid network you would be building!

fuck i can't wait till i am a bit older and have enough money to be able to afford to try ideas like this.

another problem with i haven't seen here is that many people would just have the hardest time shitting on it since it lasts so long. at least with oxy or morph you can take a dump before dosing each day

[Paregoric Kid]

if people start to think of this as a rights issue, a personal freedom issue, then it might change some peoples views. no one just gets rights you have to fight for them.

fuck welfare for addicts, fuck addiction scripts. I want to be able to go downtown and BUY a bottle of cocaine, heroin, methadone, morphine, d-methamphetamine, and hashish legally from a pharmacy, just like the good old days lol.

[Coddfish]

if people start to think of this as a rights issue, a personal freedom issue, then it might change some peoples views. no one just gets rights you have to fight for them.

fuck welfare for addicts, fuck addiction scripts. I want to be able to go downtown and BUY a bottle of cocaine, heroin, methadone, morphine, d-methamphetamine, and hashish legally from a pharmacy, just like the good old days lol.
dude. i have a dream. . . .

obviously this thread is dug up from its nasty, wormy cyber coffin. but they's some good ideas from good people. i dunno, it's a good read, and it's germane to another thread i just started.

hope i haven't broken a board taboo by throwing this smelly old corpse in front of all to see. shan't happen again.

[Seedy]

Wow, i was thinking "cool, all these old skool 'philes have come back". interesting thread though!

[SynthMorph]

Opium, morphine and heroin all legal until 1914 available in a pharmacy without prescription as someone above said. Most people out there felt shitty their whole lives before trying opiates and they realized that was the only time they felt normal in life. I don't know if that's choice really to feel like shit for the rest of your life or get what you know cures you. As for methadone maintenance that shits a step in the wrong direction, having your urine analyzed all the time, having to degrade yourself to walk into a place like that, not being trusted, being treated like scum and most people can't adhere to those hours. You become dependent on the state for your addiction, that's terribly wrong and could lead to very bad places in the future as a measure of control. The government has no place telling you what can and cannot go into your body, that shit makes me furious. The US has the highest prison population in the world, the majority being drug related. Drug users get longer sentences than murderers, rapists and armed robbers. There's something wrong there and it's all about freedom and the police state not wanting you to have any of it. Prohibition needs to end, it's causing way more deaths and problems than if all that shit was legal.