Thoughts about NA or AA?

[Buckshot]

In rehab its easy to stay clean....what about after?

I see 1 week clean outside of an in-patient being worth a month or 2 inside a live in program.

Ive had real time before but its only now Im going to meetings. They seem to help.
I have a bit of a problem about the spiritual stuff when they lean towards Jesus but I just try to keep an open mind about the definition of higher power. It bothers me when they say the Our Father most of all.

What I like most is the sharing. I hear guys my own age (Im 31) talk about staying clean and these guys have a few years of time under thier belts. And I think they may have had major monkeys on thier backs before....that inspires me.

Do you like NA or think its a cult?
or whatever
Thoughts?

[Morfiend]

seems like wanting to succeed in life and accomplish your goals without being bogged down by drugs can be just as good motivation as a "relationship with Jesus" or whatever...

I think it's bullshit. I am open to the concept of a higher power, but I don't see why it is necessary or beneficial to discuss faith or religious beliefs in rehab.

[Buckshot]

When I was in rehab I read a book called the secret it opened some door to being open to spirituality.

Still wont touch anything to do with jesus myself though.

The meetings mostly refer to higher power and leave it to your interpretation however some people are jewish or christian....i guess thats cool....its just so many people try to tall me its a cult im not sure what to think.

it helps me stay clean isnt that what counts?

[nick]

Yeah,most folks bad mouth NA till they need it.It doesn't work for me,but that says more about me than NA.

I don't see a problem with the "higher power",just interpret "higher power" in whatever way works for you.I consider "higher power" to be the group's collective conscience a kinda doper universal mind.

Ultimately,NA is the only free,peer led global recovery group that I know of and I'm grateful it exists.

[JonnyMohawk]

Statistically speaking you have the exact same chance of getting clean with or without.



I kind of have a problem with the higher power thing, seems demeaning.

"Admit you are a junky piece of shit who can't take control of your own life unless you surrender your body and mind to a higher power"

Eh, no thanks.


Just my thoughts though.

[HistoryofMadness]

i have two distinct sets of thoughts about the 12 step programs that i still can't integrate in my mind. i am literally of two minds on this issue.

on one hand, i spent a significant amount of time going to meetings and "doing the deal" and I saw it work for a lot of people that dove into it completely. my personal problem was diving into completely. i still think somewhere in my mind it would work for me if i would totally give in to "the program"

which brings up the other mindset... i feel like it is a bit of brainwashing... but i had a counselor once that said "some brains need to be washed" - he said i was stricken to a street mentality and programmed to act a certain way about rules and authority.

i understand that i am a veteran of a very real war, the war on drugs, and that i had to at some point make an idealistic stand against authority to make it ok for me to constantly be involved in illegal activities... to me, they were my rights. which gets into the whole Social Contract, which for brevity's sake i won't go there now...

in the same vein, the programming, or reprogramming, that comes with these groups have seemed a bit archaic... like when epilepsy was considered demonic possession...

"you have a disease of perception, and the solution to this problem is not strictly physical, but also spiritual, so you must believe..." in other words, suspend your disbelief until you are acting more like us... which is clean... which is the point..

so, you see, i go back and forth. the whole "spiritual" solution to me is basically the introduction to programming, to allowing others to redefine how you live life right now.

which may be ok, if you are no longer ok with the way you are living.

to me, if you to this along with checking for any dual diagnosis (mental illness is not a bad thing, its just like a heart condition, just another organ that needs attention), some short-term professional help at the beginning (to go through things you "stuffed" while you were high for 10 years), and redirecting energy to new things in everyday life (cause let's face it, we spend a LOT of time with our opiates)...

blah blah. i think its ok. its worth a shot. anything is when you're fucking hopeless, like i"ve been. at least it was there to get me off the bottom rung of the ladder.

[OrangeLude]

12 step programs are a mixed bag and a micro of society...there's good meeting and poor ones...there are people in meetings I wouldn't want to know where I live & there are people I would trust with my children.

12 step programs have helped change my life. I may be dead without them. Is there a great deal of BS that comes along with some good messaging for living buried deep inside it? I think so. there's some good stuff in 12 step life.
There are also a lot of miserable people who don't drink or use but think they live a 'program' and for them that is a better way of life than on drink or drugs.

For sure there is no one answer or one way to look at program life or people that live the program. It works for many people and is definitely one path to a life of recovery that can count many successes.

Do people relapse & die. Oh yeah. But that in no way means the program isn't good or effective.

Someone doesn't believe in one or more aspects of the program? Cool - I would take what I need and leave the rest behind...

I haven't been to a meeting in several years and am not looking to step back in...I have a relative that is currently having a very positive 12 step experience...she is making much progress with her drinking habit - I think progress is much underused in recovery, certainly in 12 step world....I digress.

AA & NA can work, gets a mixed rap, you shouldn't take someone elses opinion of the experience, each individual needs to figure it out for them selves that 12 step is for them or not....
There are the wackos and the recovered lives, the winners & the losers, they're all there...some of the best entertainment value you'll ever get will cme from the dollar you put in the basket at an AA/NA meeting...they can be very entertaining - if not annoying ;)

good luck.

ymmv

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

I think NA focuses on God because He truly is the only one that ANYONE(those with no family,friends,etc) can count on. I have STRONG faith in The Lord Jesus Christ. It's crazy how many non-believers there are on this forum. I wonder what percentage of opiate users believe?
I'm farrr from the preachy type, but I will let others know where I stand on the issue. When you die, that's it, no second chances. I'm just going to be damn sure I'm ready because eternity sounds pretty damn long.....

[nick]

i have two distinct sets of thoughts about the 12 step programs that i still can't integrate in my mind. i am literally of two minds on this issue.

on one hand, i spent a significant amount of time going to meetings and "doing the deal" and I saw it work for a lot of people that dove into it completely. my personal problem was diving into completely. i still think somewhere in my mind it would work for me if i would totally give in to "the program"

which brings up the other mindset... i feel like it is a bit of brainwashing... but i had a counselor once that said "some brains need to be washed" - he said i was stricken to a street mentality and programmed to act a certain way about rules and authority.

i understand that i am a veteran of a very real war, the war on drugs, and that i had to at some point make an idealistic stand against authority to make it ok for me to constantly be involved in illegal activities... to me, they were my rights. which gets into the whole Social Contract, which for brevity's sake i won't go there now...

in the same vein, the programming, or reprogramming, that comes with these groups have seemed a bit archaic... like when epilepsy was considered demonic possession...

"you have a disease of perception, and the solution to this problem is not strictly physical, but also spiritual, so you must believe..." in other words, suspend your disbelief until you are acting more like us... which is clean... which is the point..

so, you see, i go back and forth. the whole "spiritual" solution to me is basically the introduction to programming, to allowing others to redefine how you live life right now.

which may be ok, if you are no longer ok with the way you are living.

to me, if you to this along with checking for any dual diagnosis (mental illness is not a bad thing, its just like a heart condition, just another organ that needs attention), some short-term professional help at the beginning (to go through things you "stuffed" while you were high for 10 years), and redirecting energy to new things in everyday life (cause let's face it, we spend a LOT of time with our opiates)...

blah blah. i think its ok. its worth a shot. anything is when you're fucking hopeless, like i"ve been. at least it was there to get me off the bottom rung of the ladder.

Yeah,it's a real shame NA is so rigid and dogmatic,it really has retarded it's development.The whole "higher power" element made a lot more sense in Bill W's day,but today it can be construed as creepy cultism.

If anyone knows of a modern,developed version of the Minnesota method,I'd love to hear about it.

[dragonnas]

I think NA focuses on God because He truly is the only one that ANYONE(those with no family,friends,etc) can count on. I have STRONG faith in The Lord Jesus Christ. It's crazy how many non-believers there are on this forum. I wonder what percentage of opiate users believe?
I'm farrr from the preachy type, but I will let others know where I stand on the issue. When you die, that's it, no second chances. I'm just going to be damn sure I'm ready because eternity sounds pretty damn long.....

Anytime someone uses the name of a mythological religious figure such as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc with an honorific such as The Lord, Peace-Be-Upon-Him, The Great, etc, I am immediately put off of their original message and I wonder how a person could be so brainwashed to let it infiltrate the very basics of their communication with others. We know that you think jesus christ is lord based on the other stuff you said about him. Isn't it redundant to include in capitals "The Lord" when you say that guy's name?

Aside from my ire at Sheeple, I have to say from my own experience in 12 step programs that the higher power logic is thrown in there to give people a face-saving way of admitting they were wrong before. Sometimes people are afraid to admit they are wrong or have ever been wrong - sometimes addicts fall deeply into that trap. When you allow for the existence of a superintelligent non-human force of the universe, it makes it easier to say "I'm human, I was wrong about something. But the only one who can hear me who is holier than thou is nonhuman, and won't laugh at me for being wrong." So it's ok to admit my mistakes and just move on with life. Sometimes by leaving those mistakes behind.

Or something along those lines. Ordinarily I'm better at writing but I just don't care about things like I used to.

[OrangeLude]

Yeah,it's a real shame NA is so rigid and dogmatic,it really has retarded it's development.The whole "higher power" element made a lot more sense in Bill W's day,but today it can be construed as creepy cultism.

If anyone knows of a modern,developed version of the Minnesota method,I'd love to hear about it.

Have you ever glanced at RR - Rational Recovery - while debunking much of AA it proposes its own version of self will directed at recovery...

[Morfiend]

I think NA focuses on God because He truly is the only one that ANYONE(those with no family,friends,etc) can count on. I have STRONG faith in The Lord Jesus Christ. It's crazy how many non-believers there are on this forum. I wonder what percentage of opiate users believe?
I'm farrr from the preachy type, but I will let others know where I stand on the issue. When you die, that's it, no second chances. I'm just going to be damn sure I'm ready because eternity sounds pretty damn long.....
let's suppose you are 100% correct here... focusing on Jesus will not help a stubborn non-believer quit. It will turn them off to the whole process and aid in their failure to follow through with the program.

If the one thing in common with everyone there is the goal to remain sober, then it seems irrational and possibly counterproductive to dictate a universal motivation for the goal to them.

[Duckfeet]

I think NA focuses on God because He truly is the only one that ANYONE(those with no family,friends,etc) can count on. I have STRONG faith in The Lord Jesus Christ. It's crazy how many non-believers there are on this forum. I wonder what percentage of opiate users believe?
I'm farrr from the preachy type, but I will let others know where I stand on the issue. When you die, that's it, no second chances. I'm just going to be damn sure I'm ready because eternity sounds pretty damn long.....

Kind of presuming that one book out of many is true, aren't you...imagine how crappy you'll feel if the devil won the battle, or that the Koran is the righteous text...or the Torah...or the I Ching...or whatever...best wishes tho...you "may" be right...

I don't believe in anything, and Pascal's great wager only holds water if you presume the bible is probably true, which I don't...

I try to act kindly towards my fellows without regard to eternal reward or any causal expectations at all...Dope...Alcohol...Belief in the hereafter...Life's hard to take straight up...it's all fine with me, what others believe, as long as they act right and don't proselytize ...but people justify bad behavior in all kinds of ways, from burning witches at the stake to claiming predistination means they are "the elect", to blowing up buildings full of infidels...it all sucks to me...we are here a short while and should be kind to our fellows.

And I go to AA daily, just came from my bi-monthly meeting I take to the local jail...it's alright: gives me hope and direction and better life on this planet: Everybody else's mileage may vary...I swim way out around the pier here when I need to get in touch with the dolphins who rule this planet...

[dharma bum]

I've heard of a program caalled Secular Organizations for Sobriety (S.O.S.) and even a thing called Moderation Management (M.M).

Around here we have a program called Lifeline. It's Christain based and they consider N.A. and A.A. folks as lefty radicals. 98 percent of them are in drug court so if they fail a UA they are looking at time. The folks over this program actually has pull with the legal system which I'm pretty sure is illegal?? Because a Lifeline meeting counts for 2 N.a. meetings it is a pretty popular prograam around here.

How's that for restoration of sanity??

[father ted]

ive only just started attending n.a.-the religion aspect isnt really that concentrated on here in ireland...i think if it does bother you that much,just substitute "Good Orderly Direction" instead..i myself am not that religious...i think n.a meetings are a great assset in recovery...some of the speakers are great,some not.Im just a sit and listen member,ive never spoke yet and i dont think i will for some time...there seems to be a difference in the american meetings,because here the emphasis is definitely on recovery etc...GOD rarely comes onto it...i havent surrendered to that higher power yet...but if,and when i do-it will be my own definition of GOD....something i am happy with.;)

[oxy kid]

I've been to a few NA meetings as well as 1 AA meeting and I thought I had a positive experience with them. Its all personal preference. If you interested, check one out and if you like it, go back, and if you don't, then don't.

[dragonnas]

GOD rarely comes onto it...

All the evidence of god's existence is purely subjective. Which means that God is either everywhere at all times, and hence god must ALWAYS "come into it"; or it means that God is nowhere ever and doesn't exist. Which belief makes you happier? What color would you like the inside of your coffin to be? It's just a window-dressing... find what works and go with it.

i havent surrendered to that higher power yet...but if,and when i do-it will be my own definition of GOD....something i am happy with.;)There is no meaningful definition of God other than your own definition. Noone else could ever tell you what God is- there is no language with words to truly describe something like an omnipotent entity. The human mind can only understand what it can relate to. This is like that, and this is like the other. And that over there is like the other one. But an omnipotent entity whose domain lies beyond (above?) the concept of time or space is completely foreign to the human experience. You cannot "relate" to God or "explain" it because your subjective existences could not be more different, assuming it exists. So by definition any knowledge you may have about god must be experiential, subjective, and unique to the coincidence of your particular circumstances. There is no other way.

[Duckfeet]

No one in AA has ever tried to tell me who god was...I just like having a place to go, and needed a little direction in my life. I spent many many years as a lowlife criminal junky...I hardly think AA is going to screw me up any more than I already was:rolleyes:. I get free coffee and people are nice to me.

I let others worry about who their higher power is...I was just backing away from the horror of daily alcoholism. No good AA ever promotes the place: it's against our traditions. what fucks up AA, at times, is everybody *else* promoting us (treatment centers, methadone clinic counselors, judges, parole/probation officers, doctors, "Mom"), it so we get inundated with people who don't want to be there, and who have preconceived notions about what we are, and want to argue about it. WE DON'T CARE!

No one has to come. Drink, do dope, go to church, pray to the devil, worship mohammed or retarded cats: AA has no opinion on it. I hear all kinds of shit online I don't believe in, same same AA meetings...Yeah, they got religious people in there, always have, and yeah they got atheists in there, always have: only thing we have in common is desire to stop drinking...and it helps me, daily, stay off dope.

I don't feel the need to attack churches--unless they start blowing up buildings, then I do--I just don't care. People need all kinds of stuff I don't believe in, to get them thru the day: god, motorcycles, grandkids, cats...all I need is some big waves once in a while...and we've been getting'em :)

[bodytec]

for a lot of people with existing faith,to trust thier higher power is key in times of dispair
AA originated by believers
if you are there with pre-existing faith,the program may work for you
if you do not have faith,the steps and ideas will not

[30_Units]

That statement always bothered me...."If you don't have faith in a higher power, you can't get sober", in so many words-and people who got in my face about it really turned me off the whole process. Not having license I haven't been to any different meetings recently despite my doc's prodding. Might look for some local ones once I get that back-I always liked listening to the older guys, they had some real wisdom and never proselytized like the younger ones.

Me believing in your god may be necessary for me to complete some arbitrary steps, but to be sober-nah-you can keep your god, I'm doing just fine without it.

With that said, I have no problems with people with faith in that stuff-Power to ya-just don't get in my face and tell my I'm doomed to fail when I don't believe in your version of witchcraft.

[Paregoric Kid]

I'm not sure if anything has changed but I know that they definitely used to and might still force people to go to AA/NA through court orders. that is unconstitutional. forcing people by court order into a religious group like AA or NA is a violation of the first and eighth amendments of the constitution. there are secular 12 step groups out there, like SOS (http://www.sossobriety.org)for example, but there is no evidence that any 12 step group works. if they worked so well why would they try and hide their success rates? the whole idea sounds stupid to me. I mean if it works for you fine, but it isn't science and its not proven to work. in fact you have the same chance of successfully quitting an addiction if you did it on your own compared to if you went through a 12 step program.
check out season 2 episode 11 of Penn & Teller Bullshit on 12 stepping (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/step/video/xrq3s_211-12stepping_videogames)

[Duckfeet]

for a lot of people with existing faith,to trust thier higher power is key in times of dispair
AA originated by believers
if you are there with pre-existing faith,the program may work for you
if you do not have faith,the steps and ideas will not



Not true, IMO: they work fine. And I've not seen that "faith" has anything to do with who hangs in there...people who stay sober seem to stay in the middle of things, be kind, and help their fellows, stick their hand out to new guys, etc. And I've never trusted any higher power...in times of despair...I feel bad, and try to figure a way out of it. *Many* people I've met in AA have no clue about "who god is" or have any pre-existing faith at all. Selective quoting of the Big Book makes people think "that's all there is to it," but there's just as many counter-quotes. when Ebby came to Bill W., Bill didn't buy into Ebby's "religious experience" either, until Ebby said: "Why don't you choose your own concept of god," and that's when Bill got o.k. with the idea. also says, that early experienced did give this impression, but that most spiritual experiences were of the educational variety, and all you need is openmindedness, honesty, and willingness.

There aren't an rules: only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. The rest is anybody's ballgame.


I'm not sure if anything has changed but I know that they definitely used to and might still force people to go to AA/NA through court orders. that is unconstitutional. forcing people by court order into a religious group like AA or NA is a violation of the first and eighth amendments of the constitution. there are secular 12 step groups out there, like SOS (http://www.sossobriety.org/)for example, but there is no evidence that any 12 step group works. if they worked so well why would they try and hide their success rates? the whole idea sounds stupid to me. I mean if it works for you fine, but it isn't science and its not proven to work. in fact you have the same chance of successfully quitting an addiction if you did it on your own compared to if you went through a 12 step program.
check out season 2 episode 11 of Penn & Teller Bullshit on 12 stepping (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/step/video/xrq3s_211-12stepping_videogames)

I actually agree with that, most of it anyway. And people have filed writs at least in California, so they don't get forced into "AA or jail." And there is also no evidence AA works, and I agree, people can stop on their own, just as likely. It's for people who have tried other ways and fail: do they often/usually fail in AA too? Sure, but at least there are people who understand, and beats sitting in a room feeling suicidal until one decides to go get loaded.

But the problem is, it's not *AA* trying to promote itself, or who is saying how wonderful we are. I know without them, I'd be alone, miserable and loaded. But I also know just how cultish and weird they can be. Our problem often comes, simply because we are the only game in town. If people can stop other ways, we don't mind...and the hardest thing, for most people who *do* like AA, is all the people in there with court slips: it never occured to judges or the public, that *sending* people to AA, might fuck up AA? It does: AA is for people that want to be there....I like it, it helps me, and I rarely bring it up or defend it, but in this thread, which I dreaded when I saw it, I figured "I oughta..."

[Chipper]

Never having gone to neither, I've known folks in AA and NA. The AA folks seem much more happier and social but I'm not sure why that is ...

[nick]

Never having gone to neither, I've known folks in AA and NA. The AA folks seem much more happier and social but I'm not sure why that is ...

It's true.There does appear to be differences in the membership of NA and AA.I'm happier in AA meetings.

[candy]

I had to attend AA/NA meetings as part of my "probation" by the Board of Nursing. 90 meetings in 90 days and then 3+ meetings a week for 3 years.
I went in not wanting to be there and struggled with some of the concepts and working the steps.
I was ordered to get a sponsor and to work the 12 steps.
In my experience, most who are ordered to attend 12 step meetings struggle and find it hard to accept those principals that make up AA/NA.

As I said, I struggled really hard at first being there and kept to myself without participating much.
Seeing as I had to be there I just adopted the attitude that I would take from the meetings what applied to my situation and use it in my everyday life to reach the goals I wanted to achieve.
Wanting my license back and career back were my motivation and I did actually learn quite a bit about myself.
I don't attend NA/AA meetings, but have attended Methadone Anonymous meetings on a few occasions when I have felt lonely and in need of contact with some people who I can relate to.

It doesn't work for everyone and for many it does. I personally feel it is what you make of it and if the concept of a higher power is not your thing, you may want to go for the support from others trying to stay clean.

The success rate of 12 step meetings is no higher than that of other recovery models. For many living a life clean from drugs and alcohol can be very rewarding.

Do what works best for you and you are likely to find success.

[OpiateQueen]

i went to quite a few meetings when i was using.... i haven't been to any since i stopped using - or just methadone anyway...

I dislike the higher power crap and our lord etc. but they don't use it much in Australia - well less than you guys anyway i reckon - they use higher power - but are pretty adamant that its what you make of it, whatever you choose to believe as a higher power..

I did have abit of trouble also when i was using of just using the meetings as a way to meet people and hook up... like not meaning to go there and do that, but then always seemed to meet people there who were smashed or looking to get smashed.. i don't know, i believe its what you make of it, and take the positive experiences and leave the rest - if it helps to keep you clean then GREAT - keep going i reckon.

i have a friend who is VERY big into them and it has kept him very clean and seems to have a happy successful life... i would say he is bordering on cult though... thats what it seems llike anyway

[Duckfeet]

i went to quite a few meetings when i was using.... i haven't been to any since i stopped using - or just methadone anyway...

I dislike the higher power crap and our lord etc. but they don't use it much in Australia - well less than you guys anyway i reckon - they use higher power - but are pretty adamant that its what you make of it, whatever you choose to believe as a higher power..

I did have abit of trouble also when i was using of just using the meetings as a way to meet people and hook up... like not meaning to go there and do that, but then always seemed to meet people there who were smashed or looking to get smashed.. i don't know, i believe its what you make of it, and take the positive experiences and leave the rest - if it helps to keep you clean then GREAT - keep going i reckon.

i have a friend who is VERY big into them and it has kept him very clean and seems to have a happy successful life... i would say he is bordering on cult though... thats what it seems llike anyway

Nah: it depends on the meetings here, too: I live in a beach town, and if people are *anything* it seems to be some sort of buddhist/surfer "whatever,"...but yeah, people sometimes do the Lord's Prayer and stuff...usually serenity prayer...but main thing, like Candy said, is if it works and you like it, 'go', and if you don't, 'don't,' no problem for anybody...I think I just need to go "somewhere," for a little community and support, and I tend to act better towards my family, get less resentful...and yeah, don't want to drink or do drugs...so far...:)

I try never to push that on here: it's bad for other people, it's bad for me, and it's bad for AA...big waves: I'm gone !!!

[BlueMajick]

I'm curious about something, and this is also kind of directed at Duckfeet, since you seem to have success, while not being involved in organized religion, and since you said it helped provide you with direction.

I have a lot of depression issues related to my addiction to opiates, as well as outside influences, and while I have not decided to give up opiates for good yet, I've thought about attending an NA meeting, just for the positive feedback into my life i may get, as well as direction and all of that, which may help with depression as well.

I'm curious if anyone here has experience going to meetings, on your own, not court ordered or anything, or because someone told you to, while you're still using on a daily basis... just so that you maybe get some better direction in your life, and to possibly push you in the direction of one day stopping, even if you believe you never will?

Just curious if i may get some benefit, not looking for a miracle, or to suddenly want to stop opiates, just some kind of benefit in my life, no matter how small, if i give up the few hours on a sunday and attend a meeting... whilst not being particularly interested in organized religion. (although i do believe that praying to a higher power, just the act of putting your thoughts in order, and praying to get the thoughts out, can help tremendously for worrying about stuff, and depression, and other inner turmoil, even if you don't necessarily believe that anyone is actually listening on the other end)

[SHELLEY]

i believe in god all right
but i can't get past the "addiction/alcoholism is a disease" bullshit
also, any program that says they are "THE ONLY WAY", be it christianity or NA/AA
turns me off right away

Anytime someone uses the name of a mythological religious figure such as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc with an honorific such as The Lord, Peace-Be-Upon-Him, The Great, etc, I am immediately put off of their original message and I wonder how a person could be so brainwashed to let it infiltrate the very basics of their communication with others. We know that you think jesus christ is lord based on the other stuff you said about him. Isn't it redundant to include in capitals "The Lord" when you say that guy's name?

Aside from my ire at Sheeple, I have to say from my own experience in 12 step programs that the higher power logic is thrown in there to give people a face-saving way of admitting they were wrong before. Sometimes people are afraid to admit they are wrong or have ever been wrong - sometimes addicts fall deeply into that trap. When you allow for the existence of a superintelligent non-human force of the universe, it makes it easier to say "I'm human, I was wrong about something. But the only one who can hear me who is holier than thou is nonhuman, and won't laugh at me for being wrong." So it's ok to admit my mistakes and just move on with life. Sometimes by leaving those mistakes behind.

Or something along those lines. Ordinarily I'm better at writing but I just don't care about things like I used to.

sorry hon, but belief in god isn't any less rational than atheism
don't hate on folks for being religious, throughout history humanity has believed in god(s)
it's one of the things that seperate us from the animals, spiritual needs
just because you're atheist or whatever doesn't mean that religion hasn't improved folks lives A LOT
say what you just said about religion, about whatever drug you like
sounds kinda judgemental and assholish, no?

[Duckfeet]

I think that you should just check out a few meetings: neither AA nor NA says they "are the only way." I've never heard that. We certainly aren't the only way, and many people stop on their own, or stop in church, or learn to moderate, I suppose: I just never had any luck with any of that. It's just a place to go, that is friendly and free, that's all. We can argue all day long on here about what it is, or what they say.


I just couldn't do this shit alone, and need help: alone I always revert to unhappy junky drunk...AA gave me the only ticket out of that hell that's ever worked for me: and it hasn't been perfect, but it's damn site better than where I was at 20 years ago, looking at a 3rd felony, girl in prison, me on way, strungout on dope, drunk and sick of it...

I never think that my way is the only way, and try not to put down what other people believe, as long as they give me the same slack. It's a tough enough world, even without opiate problems. Best wishes, you can VM me any more questions about this: this topic can get painful...and for the record, I've never believed addiction is a disease, either...treatment centers and most of my friends do...no me: addiction is addiction. It's a pain in the ass, sure, but too many new words for it, get in the way, to me....


I'm curious about something, and this is also kind of directed at Duckfeet, since you seem to have success, while not being involved in organized religion, and since you said it helped provide you with direction.

I have a lot of depression issues related to my addiction to opiates, as well as outside influences, and while I have not decided to give up opiates for good yet, I've thought about attending an NA meeting, just for the positive feedback into my life i may get, as well as direction and all of that, which may help with depression as well.

I'm curious if anyone here has experience going to meetings, on your own, not court ordered or anything, or because someone told you to, while you're still using on a daily basis... just so that you maybe get some better direction in your life, and to possibly push you in the direction of one day stopping, even if you believe you never will?

Just curious if i may get some benefit, not looking for a miracle, or to suddenly want to stop opiates, just some kind of benefit in my life, no matter how small, if i give up the few hours on a sunday and attend a meeting... whilst not being particularly interested in organized religion. (although i do believe that praying to a higher power, just the act of putting your thoughts in order, and praying to get the thoughts out, can help tremendously for worrying about stuff, and depression, and other inner turmoil, even if you don't necessarily believe that anyone is actually listening on the other end)

[Paregoric Kid]

well I have heard before that AA/NA does claim to be the only way. they were very rabidly opposed to medical treatments for alcoholism, like when naltrexone was approved for alcoholics for example.

[Duckfeet]

Oh I've heard this too: I've just never heard it from AA's themselves, or read it in AA literature, either, so I tend to see it as a "straw dog." AA is really limited in scope, and trys to act humble about the whole thing: why you never see us on t.v. "defending ourselves," etc. It would defeat our whole purpose to get involved in what we consider "outside issues." And again, AA is not opposed to anything...we can't without being "bad" AA's. People just use the name, make claims that AA can't possibly make, since we have no authority...we really don't: there's no "boss" or "ceo" or "representative" that can speak for us...hell, any three alkies can get together and call themselves 'AA.'


well I have heard before that AA/NA does claim to be the only way. they were very rabidly opposed to medical treatments for alcoholism, like when naltrexone was approved for alcoholics for example.

[Buckshot]

I just got home from a meeting and they served a hot lunch.

It was an eggplant parmesan thing with salad and stuff, met this really nice guy who chatted with me in the park and fed peanuts to pigeons.

I think anyone serious about recovery should at least try going to some meetings.

[soggy]

Interesting debate.

I've attended a number of NA/AA meetings and although the God issue is never talked about explicitly, it seems to be an underlying message, i.e. that you can't get clean without a higher power, whatever that might mean to you.

What I find frustrating is that many addiction counsellors are also tied to the NA/AA program and you can't really get anywhere with them without buying into it.

In addition, most treatment programs here in Canada are also strongly connected to NA/AA programs, which seems a bit unfair to those who don't believe in the program.

I know it works for some people, but I also know it turns a lot of people off.

But until someone comes up with something better (perhaps based on cognitive behavior therapy or something similar), we're stuck with NA/AA.

soggy

[Opiyum]

This is an interesting thread and cetainly applys to me right now.
I have kind of given up on going to meetings. I was going to two or three a week then that turned into one and now I haven't been to one in a couple weeks and I feel fine. I'm okay with it and don't feel as if I'm going crazy without them.
I think part of why I grew to dislike the meetings was because I was going to the same ones all the time. SO I saw the same people with the same problems every week. As far as I can tell though this is normal practice and I would like to think that if I was to do a 90 in 90 that I would begin to feel more comfortable with going to the same meetings week in and week out. It didn't turn out that way for me. I did get to know some good people and was certainly fitting in just fine but I wasn't getting anything out of it that I saw to benefit me. I wasn't growing in any discernable manner.
I have since started looking into SOS (Secular organizations for Sobriety) meetings. They, whoever runs this thing, has sent me out a list of meeting in my area and I can't wait to try it out.
I was looking into Narconon because I had heard it was a different program and when I learned it was Scientology I threw up a little in my mouth.

[nick]

" I came here tonight to be surronded by love because it's better than being surronded by cops."-London NA member sharing.

Ain't it the truth.

[abner]

i always enjoyed meetings, but not for the obvious reasons. a lot of douchey people around.

i'm an addict, my problem is bryan! i got clean thanks to the grace of my higher power who i choose to call the dark lord beelzebub.

people would get angry. only did this at na. aa is a real fellowship.