My rapid detox with naltrexone

[Spork]

In an attempt to lower my tolerance and/or eliminate my dependence, I took 10 mg of naltrexone last night, along with 3 mg lorazepam (was hoping for 6mg but my girl who was doling it out wouldn't give me all 6) 6mg eszopiclone (Lunesta) 100mg of seroquel, and a full box of 25 nitrous chargers along with a whipped cream machine.

I hadn't had my DOC since the night before, as I found having high levels of anything in your body, when putting yourself into precip withdrawals with naltrexone, makes the pain WORSE. So I waited a day and was starting to feel minor natural w/ds creeping up on me (yawning, dialated pupils, hot flashes etc)

I took the two lunesta while I was still at work, around 3 oclock, became very dreamy and time started to go by extremely fast, next thing I know it's 6pm.

I go home, get in bed, still in a kind of dreamy benzo intoxicated state (I rarely ever take benzos or lunesta/ambien).

I spend an hour in bed feeling floaty, hitting the nitrous a couple times, and then a knock on the door! It's my girl! she brought the lorazepam.

Now I was hoping to take 6mg of it at once along with the naltrexone, to knock my ass out while I went through the hellish w/d (kinda like my own home anesthesia assisted detox, except not).

However, my girl is terrified of drugs, and was afraid to give me 6mg at once, so she only gave me two. I ate the two ativans, the naltrexone, and told her that was a mistake to not give me all of it and she will soon see why....

An hour goes by I think I dozed off (my memory is kind of fuzzy on this whole event considering the amnesic effects from the benzos and non benzo (lunesta) drugs.

I wake up at 8:30 pm, feeling horrible and restless and I beg my girl for another ativan. She gives me one, and I take that, along with 40mg ondansetron (zofran).

In between all of this, I am hitting the nitrous like mad, and it barely seems to take the edge off the intense pain of naltrexone w/d.

I get back in bed, trying to sleep, trying to do anything to get comfortable, I am constantly up to the bathroom to use the toilet, at one point I had turned the shower on and was lying on the shower floor just having hot water pour over me.

I dry off, get back in bed next to my girl, and toss and turn trying to sleep. I get up and take half of a 50mg seroquel, try to sleep, get back up again, take another 25mg (I did this 4 times and ate all of my two 50mg seroquels)

By now it's 3 or 4 am, and I am still in this trance like state, can't sleep, horrible leg cramping, delirium from the w/d pain, but dulled by the benzos and seroquel etc.

Somehow I fall asleep for a couple hours, wake up, hit the nitrous a few times, fall asleep. My girl leaves at 11 o'clock or so, I stay in bed trying to sleep.

I slept until 1 pm as I had a dental appt in the afternoon.

The strange part about all of this is, I felt relatively OK the day after, and the w/ds were extremely less intense than the last time I took naltrexone, which absolutely had me on the floor crying and punching the air in pain.

Last night, I also didn't sweat uncontrollably like I did the last time I had taken naltrexone. I guess that was the benzodiazepines keeping me better?

I spent the entire day in bed, while I still had a pretty intense craving, I was functional, not sweating or feeling like I am lying on hot coals, and besides my GIANT pupils, I looked to be in good shape.

So the day wears on, and I feel as I normally do during the last stage of natural w/ds, a bit depressed, a couple hot flashes here or there, but no crushing pains and aches, nausea, GI issues, etc.

Around 8pm tonight I start to feel a bit bad, so I go out the store and buy some loperamide and dxm, drink/down that combination, and in two hours felt MUCH better.

Later on in the evening, I obtained some of my DOC, and to my surprise, SUCCESS! My tolerance is lower, I require 1/3 of what I normally do!

I recommend this to people who want to get through w/ds quickly and hate waiting for 7 days of agony. High doses of benzos to knock yourself out and numb the pain of w/d, with naltrexone to precipitate withdrawals.


I also want to explain how I think this works.

I believe one mechanism of tolerance is the body producing natural opioid antagonists beta-arrestins and stuff.
When you start to build a tolerance to an opioid, your body produces this natural antagonist in order to balance out the increased level of agonists. This is why a tolerant person requires more of a drug, the natural antagonist in the brain is blocking the effects of their drug.

The build up of natural antagonist in the brain, is also the reason for w/ds. When you have a drug in your system, it masks the effects of the excess built up natural antagonists, but when the drugs run out, your brain is full of natural antagonists.... and these are what cause your withdrawal symptoms. Eventually your body washes out these natural antagonists after a week, when there aren't any more drugs coming into your system for them to combat.

Enter naltrexone!

Naltrexone, is an antagonist, just like the natural antagonists produced by the brain. When one takes naltrexone, the body says "Hey, wait, I already have a high level of natural antagonist in here, and now here's all this extra external antagonist.

The body says, "I don't need to keep this high level of natural antagonist around anymore to combat the external opioids, because now there is this external antagonist (naltrexone). When that happens, your body starts to kick out the natural antagonists, leaving you with a lower tolerance and dependence.

I tested this theory tonight, and I had to take 1/3rd of my DOC I was taking 2 days ago, to feel the same effect

[LongKissGoodNite]

This is fucking awesome.

I've known about naltrexone but I didn't put it together that it would allow someone to do a 2 day opiate detox (more or less). Maybe ill get back on some oxycodone and then slam into that brick wall -- much rather have intense pain for a few days than the gradual onset intensity and gradual washing away .. fuck all that man, hit me now hit me hard.

[Spork]

Yup, that's how I feel about it. It makes w/d a lot less scary as it's no longer this horrible thing that is looming over your head coming to get you and stay for gooness knows how long . You put yourself in control of your own habit, and that is what makes it so satisfying to do, even though it's painful, it's totally worth it.

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

YEAH 2 DAYS OF INTENSE PAIN AND BACK ON 'DOC' TONIGHT
SUCCESS???????
(shaking head in disbelief)

ah PLEASE, just be really, really careful when playing DOCTOR with yourself.
I am not going to burst your bubble about the LAWS OF TOLERANCE
someone can, not me
DO TAKE CARE :)

[JonnyMohawk]

I wont come within a 10 foot radius of naltrexone.

Nope.

[Spork]

JohnnyMohawk, it's not that bad, a couple hours of sedated intense w/d is a lot better than a WEEK!

Having control over your w/d and tolerance gives you a heightened level of power over addiction.

The nice thing about naltrexone is, when you voluntarily take it, it does its job, and there's nothing you can do to stop it, so the success rate is high :)

I think that ibogaine might have a similar mechanism of action, but because the person is hallucinating and tripping, they don't feel the withdrawal.

It makes sense, right? The ibogaine probably reacts with that built up brain chemical that is a natural opioid antagonist and neutralizes it or causes your body to expel it.

I remember reading some study where they discovered this chemical in the brains of morphine tolerant mice, when they gave non-morphine tolerant mice this chemical, they experienced withdrawal, hence proving that the body produces a natural antagonist to block excess agonists.

[Chipper]

<snip> I remember reading some study where they discovered this chemical in the brains of morphine tolerant mice, when they gave non-morphine tolerant mice this chemical, they experienced withdrawal <snip>

Interesting. Do you remember where you found that report mentioned in your quote? If so, I'd like to read it.

[Spork]

I just tried searching for it, I can't find it. It was a good read, I'll continue my search.

[Duckfeet]

Me neither: I've read plenty and want no part of it...all these drugs, just cause us more and more pain...a month later, most people are right back where they started...


I wont come within a 10 foot radius of naltrexone.

Nope.

[edhorfin]

I wont come within a 10 foot radius of naltrexone.

Nope.
(shudders) went thru ( i can't say the name anymore) precip w/d many times. those memories, from over 25 years ago, still haunt me.....of course, i didnt have any benzos. stupid clonidine was all......
that stuff is the spawn of satan.

[at&t]

Well, Mr. Spork... You've got a sense of adventure to you... thats for sure.

On one hand, (edit: see bottom of message for 'the other hand') - On one hand, I'm with everyone else, saying that there is no way in hell that I would repeat your experiment... The last time the topic of Naltrexone came up, the one person who had actually used Naltrexone before-- I forget WHY exactly he had taken it...
(By accident maybe? By tragically over-estimating "ULD Naltrexone" doses? By reading the documentation of the folks (Detox Center) who (iirc) were once (and may still be) this site's Sponsor and occasional contributor in the "Detox & Rehab" subforum-- "The Waismann Method." (Anaesthesia assisted Ultra-Rapid Naltrexone detox) and deciding to attempt a "DIY" Home-Budget College-Try Version of their treatment?)
I forget why exactly he took it.. BUT Afterwards, I recall him saying something about wearing thick rubber gloves when disposing of the rest of the pills, and wishing for a Hazmat suit to go with the gloves....

Anyway... Lots of folks here know what getting hit with Narcan feels like, and as Naltrexone is quote-unquote "pretty much the same thing," I'd have to say that you, sir, do indeed have a Very. Impressive. Sense. of. Adventure... (A sentiment originally expressed in much more off-colour language, but..... <shrugs> :cool: . .)

> I remember reading some study where they discovered this chemical in the brains of morphine
> tolerant mice, when they gave non-morphine tolerant mice this chemical, they experienced withdrawal,
> hence proving that the body produces a natural antagonist to block excess agonists.

I remember it too... I've read plenty of older literature on the subject, but iirc, this is a relatively NEW study for which I was only able to read the abstract on one of those "We'll sell you the full paper for 50 dollars" sites that, while not without their uses, have more and more started saturating the google results of any/all vaguely technical terms these days....

It (the so-called "causes reminiscent-of-withdrawal-type-symptoms in opiate-naive mice" chemical...) -- It was something relatively obscure.... I recall saying to myself at the time: "Hey! I need to write this down. and Bookmark it on the browser, and make a big mental note that I will never forget." And, in fact, I did all three of those things... But now, apparently, after no less than 45 minutes of searching google, a great big stack of papers on and around my desk, and all remaining mental notes (0) , I have to admit that all three are now lost.

Anyway... Your theory is.... Despite considerably oversimplifying things, etc-- is, of course, no more or less unlikely than all the other various theories folks (scientists/etc) have on the topic at this point....
And although the study didn't claim to "prove" anything of the sort, I guess if you look at it from a certain perspective, what you are saying *does* make some sense, and *is* somewhat applicable to the findings of the study (or at least, to the findings as expressed in its 200 word abstract) - (and I'm 100% sure that we both read the same one...) -- I just wish that I could find the stupid thing....!!

Anyway...
#1. keep looking for that article there Spork... ;)
#2. Thanks for posting about your experience...
#3. I have a question...... It seems strange that you were immediately able to sleep right after dosing naltrexone. What sort of habit did you have prior to going through this "experiment"/"bout self-inflicted-torture..."? Dpsage, ROA, Times-per-day, and Length since last day without...
#4. Yeah... That really does sound like self inflicted torture... eating fistfuls of "'Pseudo-Benzo'-Benzos"... (Crazy "hallucinations and dysphoria should you stay awake more than an hour" new "Z-drugs" (or whatever they call them)) I recall the last time I was sick-- *really* sick, I mean, I recall eating Fistfulls of not Benzos, but proper old-fashioned Barbs, and still-- No dice... nothing... Until I finally next dosed, got well, and immediately slept for....... god knows how long. (Come to think of it, in retrospect, despite making for a thoroughly boring "D- at best" anecdote, still quite possibly my most stupid-reckless (drug-related, at least) moment--. *Despite* it being an extremely conservative/cautious "ok... I still have some unknown amount of barbs in my system, and would prefer to be sick another hour or two and live, rather than get well immediately and die" sort of shot, but still.... <shrugs again... sorry.>. . .)

PS. Johnny Mohawk-- I'm sorry to say that the paper that spork and I are talking about is nothing *too* dramatic. Nothing too important. They just found that "dopefiend mice" in WD exhibited elevated levels of ........ (WTF-ever was it called,) and then whipped up a batch of said 'wtf-ever' chemical, injected Normal mice, and they jumped around and Seemed to exhibit some mouse-discomfort and some mouse-wd-looking symptoms. Anyway, I'll vm you if I ever find it.... (not optimistic though... and not too much time for the moment, I'm afraid...) (in fact, I must be going now... so...).

Cheers folks,
Good luck spork-- Let us know how it progresses....
Over and out, at&t

EDIT: I forgot the 'OTHER Hand...' -- "On one hand-- Yeah... I wouldn't touch Naltrexone either..." But on the other hand, I have (we all have, presumably,) read the 'amazing claims' (from people who weren't selling anything, even..) about *ULTRA* low dose naltrexone (0.01mg) (not to be confused with "Low Dose Naltrexone" (10mg)) I've posted this before, but...........
This guy at this link (http://web.archive.org/web/20041013034455/dilaudid.net/uldntx.shtml) has an interesting story about his daily use of ULTRA low dose ntxone to... (Ostensibly Allegedly maybe- who knows) 1. Reduce Tolerance, and 2. Potentiate his doses.... It supposedly works by Facilitating the Internalization/endocytosis/"recycling" of Opiate Receptors at doses where its Antagonist action is all but irrelevant...... but.... its a pretty long story, and I am very very very far from being a "scientist" or even (despite delusions-of-adequacy type claims in above post) a particular "well-read"-(even just on the subject at hand)-"layman".. and well... I have to get to work! So... Thanks for bearing with me(!), and bye for now folks... :) at&t...

[Spork]

Hi At&t,

Thanks for the informative reply,

as for your question, I had a moderate h habit going, though I was exclusively snorting it, it was very quality stuff, and I was going through a half gram in about 24 hours. That habit began back in May and slowly escalated from a mere 30 or 40 mg sniffed (I have a mg scale) to several hundred per time.

The longest I had gone without it since I started, was a 7 day break during which I took small doses of suboxone. (This was another one of my personal experiments to get my tolerance lower, and it worked great)

I hit myself with the naltrexone because I can't stand the anticipation of natural withdrawal.

I was quite shocked at how effective the lowering of my tolerance was, after I had tried a small dose of my doc last night, only 24 hours after the naltrexone, and I once again felt the intense euphoria and extreme nod that I used to get when I was new to the whole game.

I think that this naltrexone therapy might be something I will continue to do, to keep my tolerance in check, and to be able to eliminate my dependence in a day or two should I ever need to.

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

AH LET JUST SEE WHERE YOUR SO CALLED 'LOWER TOLERANCE' IS IN SAY 2-3 WEEKS. Report back then with update please.
Control is an illusion, :)

[Spork]

Well, that's the whole point, instead of going up and up and up, until snorting no longer works and I have to start using a needle, I am able to take a chunk out of my tolerance every few weeks or so, keeping my habit under control.

[at&t]

Absolutely.

By all means, please do let us know "where your so called 'reduced tolerance' is in 2-3 weeks."

There may well be *something* to the "intentionally dosing oneself with naltrexone" thing.... (Be it "ULDntx" as described on the "dilaudid.net" site I linked to in the other post, or be it the Insane-high instant-WD science-project dosages that the author of this thread describes... Sort of a like periodic "'Knife-in-the-Mains-Socket' 'Health Tonic'" or maybe a "High-Colonic for the Brain")

There has to be Something to it..... Who knows what that "something" may be, but.... Please do let us know how it proceeds.......

EDIT: Another question... I wonder-- (and you definitely don't have to answer this one) I wonder how you got hold of some Naltrexone? If anyone cares to duplicate your experiment, where would you suggest starting (in terms of procuring some, I mean... any advice?)
IIRC it is a prescription drug, and only supposed to be for... what... Alcoholics, Gambling-Addicts, ... etc... I was also given to understand that it was quite expensive(?) etc....

Well... cheers man.. Hats off to you for experimenting with this stuff... Using yourself as a guinea pig with a Nasty frightening chemical capable of sending one on a 12 hour trip to Amplified-*super*-WD Hell...... Damn... If your town's local "Harm Reduction Place" doesn't give out Narcan syringes, I'll mail you one if you want, so you can hit yourself with it, and add to your experimental data.... ;) jk man...
(But yeah... Spork walks on to a train... This guy squares up to him and sort of looks him in the eye and says casually, boasting like... "You know kid, between the two of us, we have 5 balls," and spork mutters to himself "oh? Poor bastard..." before asking "So what.. You only have one?")

Nevermind.... Sorry... Later folks... at&t

[Spork]

Naltrexone can be purchased from online pharmacies, as it's an uncontrolled, unscheduled medication. It's relatively cheap, too. Here's a place that sells it, http://www.medstore.biz/

Or, if you have a friend that has a few 50mg REVIA pills, a very small chunk of one will go a long way as far as experimentation goes. Half or quarter of a pill would last quite a while.

[More Feen]

If you have a friend that works in any hospital, obtaining a small amount shouldn't be really difficult. Maybe even a friend that is an EMT/Paramedic--they should carry that stuff/ have access to it.

I don't know how expensive it is, but a buddy of mine got me a small (injectible) vile from the E.R. I carry it with me--just in case (not that I could administer it to myself if I ever OD'd, but I have it none the less).

I was always told that it has a short duration of action: and that if you use it to treat an OD-victim, that you need to keep the guy under observation because as the narcan wears-off, any agonist still floating around the system can re-attach to the opi-receptor and the person can experience the OD again.

So if Spork used a dose of Narcan to strip his opi-receptors of an agonist, it would be on-board for what, an hour or two? For true detox, wouldn't he have to re-dose with more Narcan? Or is one dose enough?

I should probably check into the "Rapid Detox" treatment and see if they use repeated doses of Narcan, or a constant drip of Narcan over a set period of time while the patient is unconscious.

AT&T, since I've begun carrying the Narcan with me, I've read about the ULTRA LOW DOSE Narcan being used to potentiate regular agonist. One would have to ensure that they've diluted the HELL out of the Narcan, because if they were mistaken in the ultra-low dosage, instead of experiencing a potentiation of their DOC, they'd be slammed into WDs.

Last thing: Buprenorphine can be used similarly to Narcan, if you're trying to deprive your opi-receptors of "seeing" a full-on agonist. If used for this purpose, it should be really a low dose--not like the sublingual milligram dosages, but more like 300-microgram (0.3 mg) range.

A good friend of mine has used bupe in this manner to lower his tolerance to just about nada. Then stayed off of the bupe for 2 days +. Hitting a minor amount of his DOC was akin to "starting fresh" again, tolerance-wise--good head-to-toe rush, a nice strong hit.

Keeping a low tolerance, by chipping, is the DEVIL in this detail. Damn hard to do.

M F

[DCBA]

like some of you know i used to do rapid detoxes with naltrexone at home.

I would use ketamine and DXM as dissociatives, to lower the INTENSE PAIN that ingesting Naltrexone while adicted to opiates do.

Its very hard without the dissociatives but with them is barebable. The most interesting thing is that is shrinks the WD from 3 days to about 12 hours...

Some day i'll write a full report.

[OpiateQueen]

If you have a friend that works in any hospital, obtaining a small amount shouldn't be really difficult. Maybe even a friend that is an EMT/Paramedic--they should carry that stuff/ have access to it.

I don't know how expensive it is, but a buddy of mine got me a small (injectible) vile from the E.R. I carry it with me--just in case (not that I could administer it to myself if I ever OD'd, but I have it none the less).

I was always told that it has a short duration of action: and that if you use it to treat an OD-victim, that you need to keep the guy under observation because as the narcan wears-off, any agonist still floating around the system can re-attach to the opi-receptor and the person can experience the OD again.

So if Spork used a dose of Narcan to strip his opi-receptors of an agonist, it would be on-board for what, an hour or two? For true detox, wouldn't he have to re-dose with more Narcan? Or is one dose enough?

I should probably check into the "Rapid Detox" treatment and see if they use repeated doses of Narcan, or a constant drip of Narcan over a set period of time while the patient is unconscious.

AT&T, since I've begun carrying the Narcan with me, I've read about the ULTRA LOW DOSE Narcan being used to potentiate regular agonist. One would have to ensure that they've diluted the HELL out of the Narcan, because if they were mistaken in the ultra-low dosage, instead of experiencing a potentiation of their DOC, they'd be slammed into WDs.

Last thing: Buprenorphine can be used similarly to Narcan, if you're trying to deprive your opi-receptors of "seeing" a full-on agonist. If used for this purpose, it should be really a low dose--not like the sublingual milligram dosages, but more like 300-microgram (0.3 mg) range.

A good friend of mine has used bupe in this manner to lower his tolerance to just about nada. Then stayed off of the bupe for 2 days +. Hitting a minor amount of his DOC was akin to "starting fresh" again, tolerance-wise--good head-to-toe rush, a nice strong hit.

Keeping a low tolerance, by chipping, is the DEVIL in this detail. Damn hard to do.

M F
yeah it does wear off quite quickly and you can go into OD again... thats why the ambo guys always wanna give you abit more... and don't wanna leave you there alone again.
We had stacks of it at the vet hosp - for some reason drs were giving it away too - and i think my Dad was making sure there was some around... for obvious reasons... ANYWAY i had to use it once when my opiate naive boyf decided he wanted to try it... i gave him the tiniest bit and ofcourse he ODd and started snorting and going purple... Freaked the shit out of me, i had to run downstairs to the surgery, grab the narcan, fill up syringe, find a vein - which is harder than it sounds in a non conciouse person when you're freaking the hell out... and then inject... He came to very quickly... and then just had a MASSIVE headache and couldn't piss (remember when u first started using and couldn't piss?!)
We found out from the ambos shortly afterwards when he had to call them for me, that narcan should never be given IV as it results in a huge headache etc and is best given IM.... ooops. Has anyone else been told this???

[Spork]

Nah, see, I used Naltrexone, not Naloxone. Naltrexone is a different drug, orally bioavailable and lasts for much longer than naloxone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naltrexone

[kjjy]

O no..not another naltrexone nut.

Great adventurer searching for the holy grail. j/k.

Understatement.
To say. This stuff can cause problems. If you find yourself

in a situation of trying to get high while on naltrexone, just wait

it out. It can get extremely dangerous.
That said.
Your tolerance is not like it use to be.:D
My friend has been using naltrexone in the low dose protocal (LDN,ldn)

He takes 3mg(ldn) every night and has no trouble controlling CP everyday.
He has about a week trying this. He notices no effect after dosing(ldn)in the evening.
Everything is great. All he can say is WOW.:):p:D:cool:

At 3mg he may have some diminish return but is not sure. Tried skipping dose(ldn)an results
were a little better. As my great papy use to say "The key to it" is dose ldn everynight or every
other night or you may get sucked down into the pit of shit.

If you go to the lowdosenaltrexone site ; there are Drs. that do phone consults and Dr. list.
Naltrexone is very cheap and last a long time.

[HistoryofMadness]

sorry to be the devil's advocate here but NOTHING gives you power over addiction... putting yourself through hell and suspending yourself in a hypnotic state throughout just to feel better is not the same thing as reducing your tolerance.

in other words, you probably did feel better with 1/3 of your DOC, but the same hold true for any hell you go through and then go looking for relief...

i would consider going through all this just to continue getting high to be a sign of just how powerful addiction is... not just for you, for all of us...

for example i've got a piss and moan situation going on, where my life has been hell for a few weeks, and i took a handful of darvocet and actually felt great and high... but its not because my tolerance is lower, its because my body was so LOW that anything would have helped...

but hey, who am i to knock your experience and the results as you perceive them? its kind of like that song johnny cash covered, "i hurt myself today, to see if i still feel"

after you hurt yourself, expect to feel better with your DOC...

[Chipper]

HOM is correct; there is no long-term benefit to your tolerance, with what you're doing. Sure, the first time after such an experience would indeed feel great and maybe the second as well but then you're almost back where you started, if not ever so slightly worse.

What really works is time; consider this - you were born (external) opiate-free and remained that way for, say 20 years, before you had your first opiate (that's why the first few times are so sensational).

Then the next time, say 2 weeks later, you dose again. The difference is huge (20 years vs. 2 weeks). Therefore, if you really want to reset your tolerance dramatically, then I'd recommend a 20 year break. And even then, once the brain's physiology has learn't how to cope with the opiate assault, it never forgets.

Never.

I'm sorry to say but that's how it hangs together.

EDIT: Where Naltrexone can help, maybe (I started a thread on it), is when your (short-term) tolerance is reset. You can then use your DOC and then stop the effect with the antagonist (the "when" is up to you) to slightly lower the impact on your endorphin regulatory system.

[Spork]

Come on now, 20 year break to return back to normal?

We all know that it does not take 20 years for withdrawal from opioid use to occur and tolerance to return to a opioid-naive level, well maybe if you take one of those covalently bonding opioids like oxymorphazone or something...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymorphazone

We all know about the large scale anesthesia assisted detoxes.

My personal downscaled version using oral naltrexone and benzodiazepines is simply that, a downscaled version.

If you guys have a better and more efficient suggestion as to how I can keep my tolerance lower and enjoy my DOC without forever escalating my dose, please tell me.

But how can you tell me there is no long term benefit to what I'm doing? Of course there is, I'm experiencing it right now!

[Chipper]

Come on now, 20 year break to return back to normal?

We all know that it does not take 20 years for withdrawal from opioid use to occur and tolerance to return to a opioid-naive level

True. But I'm talking about your long-term tolerance. It's not just simply "tolerance".

Remember when it took ages for your first habit to set in ? Well, the second one comes around much faster and the third, faster still.

Keep it up and you'll see what I mean. Your mileage is probably low but any long term addict will understand what I'm trying to say; that is, you may have to wait 20 years before you get to the stage where it takes ages for the physical addiction to set in again and even then I don't think it ever recovers.

I know this is a tricky concept to understand because it's so subjective. This tolerance thing is constantly evolving; the "tail-end" is getting worse all the time and you're only dealing with the "front" of it.

If you guys have a better and more efficient suggestion as to how I can keep my tolerance lower and enjoy my DOC without forever escalating my dose, please tell me.

There is no trick to keeping your tolerance low unless you don't escalate your dose and not use so frequently. Like I said, chipping with an antagonist chaser might be your best bet.

May I ask how long you have used opiates daily ?

[at&t]

ok folks... I'm going to post just one more time here... I'll try to keep it as brief as possible.... (EDIT: OK.. I failed miserably at 'being as brief as possible..' By all means feel free to skip this one... :\ -at&t)

(Edit again..... I'm with you chipper.... 20 years IF EVER sounds plenty reasonable to me... Sort of like "Hey... Keep looking for the Philosophers Stone (Alchemy: turns lead to gold) if you want... But... Don't say you weren't warned...") ;)

Disclaimer: I know fuck all about anything.. I have Certainly never been brave or stupid enough to dose myself with this stuff Just yet.... But... "philosophers stone" or not, I *have* been interested in it for a while, and..... <shrugs> ... just though I might try to clear up some confusion between the different ways that Naltrexone is used....

Also.. Kjjy... good input...... I recall you having good posts about this stuff the last time this topic came up......

Anyway.....


Naltrexone Therapy... 30mg - 50mg / day --

This is sold to #1. Freshly Detoxed Junkies, and also to #2. Alcoholics, and people with the 'disease' of Compulsive Gambling, etc...

For people in category #1, it is given (for instance,) either as a supervised daily pill in their Inpatient/outpatient/wtf-ever Post-Detox "rehab program." Its mode of action is simple enough... It action is just like being hit with a super-long-lasting shot of Narcan. (Narcan = NALOXONE-- NOT to be confused with naltrexone) They can shoot all the junk they want.... BUT it won't do any good. The OTHER "ROA" is to give the poor unlucky bastard (read "patient") a Naltrexone IMPLANT-- where they cut a hole in your arm, and put in an implant that gradually releases naltrexone for like.. a whole month, until its time to go back in and get it replaced with a new one. People have literally done 'surgery' on themselves and torn the things out of their arm so that they could shoot junk and Feel it, instead of having it all blocked by the Naltrexone.

For people in category #2, It is taken-- (usually with voluntary compliance,) as a daily pill. According to the folks that sell it, and who pretend to understand a bit about its supposed "mode of action," it is supposed to keep endorphins from reaching their receptors, and thereby cause the alcoholic to no longer feel pleasure from drinking, and the gambler to No longer feel pleasure from gambling.

If a "normal person" (e.g. the gambler or the alcoholic) took 30mg, he would feel... maybe... not as happy as usual, maybe have a bit of a headache, but he would be ok...

But, If an Opiate Addict were to take one of those, He would get a Long-Lasting trip to Super-Amplified-Withdrawal Hell.


Low Dose Naltrexone... 3mg - 5mg / day --

This is often confused with Ultra Low Dose naltrexone, because they are both being recommended to pain patients.

ULTRA-low dose Naltrexone is being proposed as a Potentiator to proper Opiates.

There is this one guy... Dr. Bihari or something, who has a website..... He, and the other proponents of "LDN" often seem to propose their "Low Dose Naltrexone" therapy as an ALTERNATIVE to proper Opiates.

All of the people I have seen talking about/ "hyping" Low Dose Naltrexone (example-- www.lowdosenaltrexone.org (http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org)) Remind me of people trying to sell DMSO, or... what was that other one? Procaine- "gerovital".... "It cures cancer, it cures aids, etc."

If a "normal person" should take a 5mg pill of naltrexone, what would happen to him? Would it cure his Pain? His Cancer? etc? Presumably not... I don't know... But, now.. if an opiate addict should take that same pill? According to everything that I have read about it, the effects of whatever opioid he happened to be on should be somewhere between #1. Significantly Attenuated, #2. Completely counteracted, and #3. thrown unmercifully into Precipitated withdrawal.

So how does "LDN" apply to us? --- Well... Lets imagine that aforementioned opiate addict was clean now... He has detoxed, has been clean for a couple months, but has found himself craving junk. Would it be possible now to take a little bit of "low dose" 3mg or 5mg of Naltrexone, and have the Small amount of Pure Antagonist Naltrexone act sort of like the Partial Antagonist Suboxone, and somehow "screw around with" his opiate receptors, work its incomprehensible magic, and make him feel a little bit better? I don't know....

I *THINK* that this is what kjjy is talking about his friend doing..... (??) But perhaps kjjy could enlighten us if he happens to stop by this thread....(?)


ULTRA Low Dose Naltrexone... 0.03mg - 0.05mg / day --

This is the one that I personally have the most interest in.... Toward the end of my first post in this thread, I posted the site with a journal of someone who attempted to use ULDntx to reduce his tolerance, etc.... Other than that, I have read-- we all have probably read... plenty of 'scientific' 'studies' suggesting that it Should in theory work to reduce tolerance, etc.... But... who knows... you can't believe everything you read.

Anyway... As has been mentioned, no one really knows how this works, It is supposed to have to do with the "endocytosis"-- the "recycling of" the opiate receptors... The cell literally takes them back into the cell and recycles them. Morphine is supposed to somehow... who knows how... Discourage this from happening. But, If you take SOME TINY AMOUNT of naltrexone. Say, less than 0.1mg... According to the research that has been conducted so far, #1. The dose is too small to cause significant Antagonistic effects, and #2. It is supposed to encourage the cell to recycle the "used" receptors that are just sitting there after binding to morphine, subsequently letting it go, and then finally just sitting there waiting to be "recycled." This is Very Much oversimplified, and even if you Did ask someone who knew what they were talking about (not me, obviously,) the best he could give you at this point would just be conjecture, speculation, etc, and end with the words--

"so then it is recycled, and tolerance is suddenly magically lowered for some reason." - - - but who knows.... I personally want to give it a shot someday... Its one of those things like a Once a month 5-days-of-Proglumide regimen, where.... although It *seems* like a good idea, you can never find anyone who has actually tried it...

In THEORY, if a normal person took .05mg of naltrexone daily for a week, he would feel absolutely nothing. If a junky-- if you or I took it, we would allegedly find our tolerance to have dropped significantly. Or.. at least, thats what they say. Again... one can't believe everything one reads, no matter how much one wishes for it to be true.
<shrugs>


Waismann Method / Spork Method Naltrexone - Very High Doses at Detox time, ostensibly in order to "so-called" Kick the junk out of your system...

As opposed to the daily doses in the other three types of Naltrexone therapy, this one is specifically used only to Detox. Who knows....... Waismann gives you plenty of IV anaesthetic so you can sleep through the "procedure..." (whereas Spork just doses himself with whatever sorts of benzos he has on hand... Same principle, more or less, I guess... ;) . . .)

Personally, I'm a skeptic... Its just that I, for one, have Never Ever said "Hey... Detoxing doesn't hurt enough... Lets throw in some Full Antagonists to put ourselves through Even More wrenching pain..."

Spork posted: "We all know about those 'anaesthesia assisted' detoxes. Mine was a downscaled version of that"

But... Yeah... we *know about them...* That much is true... Its just that-- Not many of us would choose to put ourselves Through one of those.... ;) . . . Anyway Spork... nevermind man. Like I said... I'm glad you made this thread..... it is an interesting topic, and my hat is off to you for using yourself as a guinea pig with this stuff...


Narcan - (Naloxone) is what they use when the paramedics come to revive an overdose victim. -
It is not Naltrexone. - It lasts less long than Naltrexone. There isn't any real reason that I know of to prefer one over the other when reviving overdosed people, but, I guess that they just decided to standardize on Naloxone.

Naltrexone - (aka "revia" and a couple of other dumb brand names) -
It is not Narcan. Lasts longer... which is probably one reason why they chose IT-- Take a pill once a day, instead of Narcan-- Take 3 times daily, when they were trying to come up with a new "medicine" to try to treat their new "illnesses"...


Methyl-Naltrexone - ("Relistor") A very interesting development... -
I guess its supposed to finally be available now... Its supposed to counteract opiate constipation. Some people here-- (though I forget who) seem to have bad things to say about it...

IIRC, Loperamide is (to oversimplify a bit again..) "more or less" just Fentanyl (a hardcore Agonist) with some "stuff" tacked onto it to keep it from crossing the blood-brain barrier. It causes opiate-induced constipation by being an Agonist at the intestinal opiate receptors, (while (unfortunately) not ever reaching the brain's opiate receptors...)

Whereas Methyl-Naltrexone is "again- More or Less" just Naltrexone (a hardcore Antagonist) with some "stuff" tacked onto it to keep it from crossing the blood brain barrier. It overrides opiate-induced constipation by being an Antagonist at the intestinal opiate receptors, (while thankfully never reaching the brain's opiate receptors...)


ok... I'm done.... I'm sorry the bloody thing is so long.... I swear I tried to be as brief as possible...
Sorry guys, :( at&t

[kjjy]

So how does "LDN" apply to us? --- Well... Lets imagine that aforementioned opiate addict was clean now... He has detoxed, has been clean for a couple months, but has found himself craving junk. Would it be possible now to take a little bit of "low dose" 3mg or 5mg of Naltrexone, and have the Small amount of Pure Antagonist Naltrexone act sort of like the Partial Antagonist Suboxone, and somehow "screw around with" his opiate receptors, work its incomprehensible magic, and make him feel a little bit better? I don't know....

I *THINK* that this is what kjjy is talking about his friend doing..... (??) But perhaps kjjy could enlighten us if he happens to stop by this thread....(?)

Sorta.
He is on a *maintenance* taking 3 mg of naltrexone every night.

Maybe my friend got caught up in the journey and put the destination on hold.
That sounds better than mad cow craving for junk.:)

So my friend is proceeding with caution. There must be something bad?

[Chipper]

You have provided some interesting and thorough information there, at&t (especially the bit where you agree with me, ;)).

I would like to give LDN a try and def. will chip with an antagonist chaser at some future time.

Tolerance seems to increase in a non-linear fashion but can be mentally depicted as a long line at a 45 degree angle, starting at zero for argument's sake.

When you have assaulted your receptors with many doses of opi's for many years, that line that plots your tolerance, even though it still starts at zero, now rises at a 70 degree angle and probably keeps rising.

Note - the numbers are not correct but I just wanted to explain my earlier comments.

[antifox]

Can someone list all the options to get naltrexone and/or nalexone besides just going to a doctor and say hey I need this shit.


I hope you guys realize how little of this stuff you actually getting when you eat it. Why do you think it can be put in suboxone? Really low oral BA, doesn't mess with the buperenorphine, and IV/IM is really the only way to make it go a long ways.

And of course I am going to assume that most of you know why naltrexone is in suboxone? The DEA said they were going to put up the biggest fucking bitch fit in the world as reroute money used to bust traffickers to get buprenorphine a schedule II drug unless the makers put naltrexone in the pills to deter IV users. They allowed subutex but only when maxed out to 2mg, and also the company had to agree to urge doctors to use subutex ONLY when necessary and nothing else works to deter the side effects of the naltrexone. Well, we all know how well that worked out for the DEA and how there have been tons and tons of positive reports of IV suboxone. Something about the DEA's and the makers of suboxone inability to realize that in order for naltrexone to effective to combat IV buprenorphine, they were going to need on average three possibly five times as much naltrexone for a starting dose; 1.2mg IV/IM instead of .4mg. At this point it doesn't really matter to suboxone creators because a tiny bit of naltrexone is going to market just as bad as the DEA's recommended amount.

How do I know all this? I followed all of this very closely back in 2001 because I made big bucks with genetech so innovations in medicine is my passion, and opiates are my secret little extra special area of interest.


SORRY FOR THE TANGENT. I get carried away when I am medicated.

[Spork]

Antifox, others,

you are confusing naloxone and naltrexone.

Naltrexone is orally bio available, naloxone is not. Suboxone has Naloxone in it, not naltrexone. Naloxone is not orally active to a significant degree.

[hovadagod]

I get it now. You are willing to do all of this because you are trying to avoid the needle and think that this is a good way.

[antifox]

Antifox, others,

you are confusing naloxone and naltrexone.

Naltrexone is orally bio available, naloxone is not. Suboxone has Naloxone in it, not naltrexone. Naloxone is not orally active to a significant degree.


Wow. I can't believe I confused that.

Well it really doesn't change the situation very much because naltrexone has an oral BA of 5%-40%. The mean is on the much, much lower side. Both of these meds are used for opiate overdoses, it would be like choosing oxycodone OR vs morphine OR if you were brought into a hosptial for severe acute pain.

Also, even if there was naltrexone in suboxne tablets, and you happen to be one of the rare people who adsorbed almost 40%, then you wouldn't even notice it because there is not enough to combat the bupe. That's been well stated/found out through anecdotal shooting of suboxone itself/mixing of the two, and comparing effectiveness of both medications to combat suboxone overdose.

Like I said, I followed the study extensively when I was working before my health issues put me over the edge. I was just sort of high at the time posting that (hence the random rant), and mixed up the two as always.

[Spork]

Why Cold Turkey is Molecular Murder

New Scientist
November 2, 1996
THE BRAINS of mammals produce a molecule that blocks the action of morphine and other opiate drugs, neurobiologists in Oregon have found. The discovery may be the key to why morphine tolerance develops in patients receiving the drug for pain relief and why heroin addicts suffer withdrawal symptoms. The molecule, known as orphanin FQ or OFQ, is one of four substances produced by the brain that are chemically related to morphine, and known as opioids. The other three, collectively known as endorphins, play roles in blocking pain sensations and in mediating pleasure and reward pathways in the brain. When David Grandy and his colleagues began looking at OFQ, they expected it to be another painkiller. "It turned out it was anything but," says Grandy, a molecular neurobiologist at Oregon Health Sciences University in Portland.
In a paper published in the 25 October issue of Neuroscience (vol 75, p 333), Grandy's team reports that OFQ blocks morphine's painkilling activity. Mice given a shot of morphine usually take several seconds longer than undrugged mice to notice the pain when their tails are dipped into hot water. But after the researchers injected OFQ into the brains of morphine-doped mice, they proved just as quick as untreated mice at pulling out their tails.
In further experiments, Grandy found that mice given opiates over long periods have higher levels of OFQ in their brains. Increased production of OFQ in the presence of morphine may explain why patients taking the drug for pain relief develop a tolerance to it. If so, it might eventually be possible to find drugs that block the OFQ system and thus prevent patients from developing tolerance.
In other experiments, Grandy says he has found that mice injected with large doses of OFQ develop what look like drug withdrawal symptoms---shaking, diarrhoea and squinting eyes. He believes high levels of opiates such as morphine and heroin prompt the brain to pump out more OFQ to offset them. If drugs are then removed, he speculates, the sudden excess of OFQ may produce the symptoms of withdrawal.
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[jacky]

I was on naltrexone for months sober. it sucked. the naltrexone kept me skinny.....craving nicotine.....and when I finally relapsed, the naltrexone did nothing to stop me from getting high. I had to use 40$ instead of 20$ to get high.

I did investigate using a solution of water that had a naltrexone pill ground into it.....I was taking approx. 50 micrograms of naltrexone a day, alongside opiates.....not to precipitate withdrawal...but to potentiate opiates so I could cut my dose down.

so if all you are trying to do is cut your tolerance...just take microgram amounts of naltrexone, it will potentiate the opiates, and you wont have to go through 2 days of pain to drop your tolerance. you can take the naltrexone with opiates, in microgram amount, and feel higher than normal....why you cut your doseage over a few days time.

also, I have found herbal substances that allow one to lower tolerance. catuama is morphine cross tolerant, and allowed me to comfortably cut my opiate dose in half in a weeks time.
mesaconitine, a kappa opioid agonist, is in chinese aconite prepared roots. you boil the roots for an hour, strain, and use alongside opiates. apparently this kappa opioid agonist will work on a person that has an established tolerance.

I see the point of taking naltrexone to force withdrawal...but good lord man, why go through all that just to jump back on the train a few days later?
there are MUCH better, and possibly safer ways to potentiate your opiates.

I use datura innoxia seeds on a daily basis...scopolamine and other tropane alkaloids definitely potentiate analgesia of opiates and sedation. this allows a person to be a greedy junkie and get higher on the same dose...or, for the resourceful gentleman junky, allow one to cut their daily dosage, while using the tropane alkaloids to fix stomach problems (donnatol, a drug prescribed to some opiate addicts has a tropane mixture of atropine, hysoscyamine, and scopolamine and phenobarb...is one of the best kick aids I have taken)

dont get me wrong, I am all for people reporting their uses of pharms or natural substances to aid withdrawal.....but forcing naltrexone type of withdrawal is a very BOLD and aggressive move....I felt strange enough taking 50 milligrams a day sober....and when I took 1/1000 of that dose, alongside opiates, I still felt scared.
actually, there are patents for mixing microgram amounts of naltrexone with standard opiates to potentiate the opiates, it also considerably limits the chance of someone quitting breathing....microgram amounts of an antagonist potentiate...and I have a feeling that the natural antagonists in opium, and possibly kratom, do the same thing.
I have taken opium products, and kratom...and found that the whole form of the plants are more potent than the isolated actives. morphine is great...but opium is stronger....7OH mitragynine is great as well....but not nearly as potent if you dont combine it with some whole kratom material.

there is a big list of herbs that can possibly help a person cut their opiate dosage, and limit the side effects of doing so.
nigella sativa seeds/oil is the MAJOR effective substance for doing this. taken alongside your normal dose, a tablespoon of nigella sativa can make you sick. cut your dose, and the nigella sativa still works its magic.
the seeds are being used in afghanistan as a type of substitute for methadone.
chamomille helps..
ashwaghanda helps...
bacopa helps.....
the list goes on...but I get tired of typing the same shit out over and over again.
anyway, the point is, the legal, easily sourced herbs can help a person cut their opiate dosage, WITHOUT SUFFERING MUCH AT ALL.

kudos to someone pushing the envelope and doing research in every direction.

I have experienced forced withdrawal when taking buprenorphine too early on when switching on to suboxone from standard opiates.
what a painful hellish experience it was. I will NEVER make that mistake again.
some day someone will die from the pain of that mistake.

[Chipper]

<snip> I did investigate using a solution of water that had a naltrexone pill ground into it.....I was taking approx. 50 micrograms of naltrexone a day, alongside opiates.....not to precipitate withdrawal...but to potentiate opiates so I could cut my dose down.

so if all you are trying to do is cut your tolerance...just take microgram amounts of naltrexone, it will potentiate the opiates, and you wont have to go through 2 days of pain to drop your tolerance. you can take the naltrexone with opiates, in microgram amount, and feel higher than normal....why you cut your doseage over a few days time. <snip>

The paradoxical effect is nothing short of fascinating, IMHO; My friend just pointed out the Arnold Shultz law to me (this text poached from http://www.drjugalkishoresclinic.com/homeopathy.htm)).

The paradox that "less" of a substance could be "more" effective was unacceptable to scientists & Hahnemann was ridiculed; but Homoeopathy survived simply because of the remarkable results achieved & eventually scientists too gave credibility to the Law of Infinitesimal Dose. The Arnold Schultz Law states that " Small drug doses stimulate cell activity & larger doses hinder it & still larger doses destroy it.

[bigNasty]

I also want to explain how I think this works.

I believe one mechanism of tolerance is the body producing natural opioid antagonists beta-arrestins and stuff.
When you start to build a tolerance to an opioid, your body produces this natural antagonist in order to balance out the increased level of agonists. This is why a tolerant person requires more of a drug, the natural antagonist in the brain is blocking the effects of their drug.

The build up of natural antagonist in the brain, is also the reason for w/ds. When you have a drug in your system, it masks the effects of the excess built up natural antagonists, but when the drugs run out, your brain is full of natural antagonists.... and these are what cause your withdrawal symptoms. Eventually your body washes out these natural antagonists after a week, when there aren't any more drugs coming into your system for them to combat.

Enter naltrexone!

Naltrexone, is an antagonist, just like the natural antagonists produced by the brain. When one takes naltrexone, the body says "Hey, wait, I already have a high level of natural antagonist in here, and now here's all this extra external antagonist.

The body says, "I don't need to keep this high level of natural antagonist around anymore to combat the external opioids, because now there is this external antagonist (naltrexone). When that happens, your body starts to kick out the natural antagonists, leaving you with a lower tolerance and dependence.

I tested this theory tonight, and I had to take 1/3rd of my DOC I was taking 2 days ago, to feel the same effect
Damn that actually makes alot of sense to me. Do you think Nubain could work for this? I'd love a Nubain/benzo detox to lower my tolerance

[Chipper]

Excellent post, Spork!

[GOLD N DIEMONDS]

Damn that actually makes alot of sense to me. Do you think Nubain could work for this? I'd love a Nubain/benzo detox to lower my tolerance

NUBAIN ??
ANSWER -YES.
I have 'SEEN' it done.

[Spork]

I have a lot of nigella sativa, maybe I should start taking those,... hmmmm

[EleusisII]

Well, that's the whole point, instead of going up and up and up, until snorting no longer works and I have to start using a needle, I am able to take a chunk out of my tolerance every few weeks or so, keeping my habit under control.

/clap clap clap

Takes fucking guts. I for one will be following your experiment closely ;)