Has anyone here had liver problems due to APAP??

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

The opiate I have the most access to is Norco 10/325. Although it contains the least APAP of all hydro products(besides compound hydro) I'm still wondering if my liver is in danger. I take about 10-12 a day now and never pass the 4000mg a day APAP limit. My doctor seems to think I'm fine as long as I don't take more than that in a day. What is your guys take on this? I've tried the CWE and it works but wayyyyyyy too time consuming with my schedule every day. Has anyone here developed liver or other health problems due to too much APAP usage? Thanks guys

HMSO

[JonnyMohawk]

I don't know man, I would be worried about talking a constant dose of apap like that everyday.


I wonder why he won't switch to something safer like vicoprofen, or roxi's, something without that nasty shit tylenol.

[mikey5string]

youll be ok a that dose. thats the standard limit. im sure its thousands of mgs away from a fatal dose. as long as you have periodic tests to make sure everything is ok i woudnt worry too much.

ps
cwe takes like 10 minutes. you could prepare it the night before as well.

i ate 70 5/325's this weekend. cwe'd doeses of 100mgs. i would eat like 3250mgs at a time though. which is what i did while i was on the ride home from picking them up.

[okie dokie]

i was eating 20 10/500's a day last summer (10 at once first thing in the morning, and 10 at once when i got home from work) i think my liver was really struggelin cuz the white part of my eyes turned YELLOW and every morning my lower back on the right side would hurt (i suppose that is were my liver lives). My point is i think your liver can actually handle ALOT of apap, but i wouldnt test it if i were you. I didnt know about CWE when i was doin 20 a day, wish i had

[mikey5string]

i was eating 20 10/500's a day last summer (10 at once first thing in the morning, and 10 at once when i got home from work) i think my liver was really struggelin cuz the white part of my eyes turned YELLOW and every morning my lower back on the right side would hurt (i suppose that is were my liver lives). My point is i think your liver can actually handle ALOT of apap, but i wouldnt test it if i were you. I didnt know about CWE when i was doin 20 a day, wish i had

yeah dude thats jaundice. thats not good.

[okie dokie]

yeah dude thats jaundice. thats not good.

OOPS:(

the wife would be like "why in the world are yers eyes yellow?!?!"
me be like "uh...i guess it is my allergies..."

my point is that i think your liver can "heal" over time if you ar egood to it.

[jo-jo]

my point is that i think your liver can "heal" over time if you ar egood to it.

That is my understanding too. I have what's called "fatty liver disease" from being overweight and having gained that weight in a relatively short period of time. I get horrible sharp, stabbing pains just under my rib cage on the right side of my chest/abdomen when it flares up...even though the gastroenterologist told me that "livers don't hurt."

Anyway, I was told that if I lose weight then my liver will heal itself. So yeah, be good to your liver as it is very important to you. And never get a liver biopsy (if you can help it) as they hurt like a mother fucker!

[okie dokie]

"The liver is the only internal human organ capable of natural regeneration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_%28biology%29) of lost tissue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_tissue); as little as 25% of a liver can regenerate into a whole liver. A human liver is known to grow back in no less than 8 years, due to hyptochronatin cells in the remaining liver."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver

[chopstix]

Your liver can heal itself to an extent, but I wouldn't walk around thinking that you can continually kick the shit out of it and then give it a two week vacation and go back to business as usual.

I think it's smart to take the FDA's recommendation with a grain of nothing. They're so full of shit it's pathetic. I personally wouldn't take more than a couple grams of APAP a day (which to me is a lot and enough to make me CWE whatever I was using) and even though I'm on the booze wagon (1 drink [half-pint three days ago] in the last week), when I'm not I drink like a fish but still very wary of APAP, nasty shit with no purpose.

Tylenol is the single largest cause of liver failure in this country, and most people have no idea just how toxic APAP is; and the problem with APAP overdose & liver failure, is that there can be very few symptoms before enough damage has been done to kill you, and dying from liver failure is an extremely ugly demise. Google it, it's fucking scary.

CWE is really easy, here's what I do - you can prep a few mugs in advance if you want.

Basically, to reduce time, my goal is to have a frozen puddle in the bottom of a coffee mug ASAP. So, I take a mug and put maybe an inch of water in the bottom and put it in the freezer. You want a cold mug with a decent sized ice cube in the bottom.

While you're waiting for the mug to get cold, put the issue in another container with a little warm water - doesn't have to be hot, and you've got a few minutes - most pills will break down pretty well but I use the butt end of a (clean) screwdriver to smash them boys up. Mix, mash, spin, curse, smile at or conragatulate your drugs as they slowly dissolve in the water. Dance a jig, have a quickie, smoke a bone, prank call your friends, pet the kitty, annoy the neighbors... Check the freezer.

Once you have a very cold mug w/ an ice cube in the bottom, and another cup with a bunch of pills dissolved, pour the milk over the cookie. Twirl it a bit and then back in the freezer for like 10 minutes.

I start prepping the filter at this point. I usually use small funnels but good junkies are resourceful, use what you have: the key though is that the filter medium is WET; you can use TP, tissue, coffee filters, cloth.. You can even just let the shit sit in the freezer and drink off the top as all the APAP will start to solidify at the bottom of the mug.

Anyway, once you get the milk down to about 35-40F, pour it through the filter. If you pre-wetted the filter, it shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to drain. I'll drink the first one, then do a quick rinse cos we all know how important it is to get the last 2mg hanging out in the sludge.

I can do this without any prior preparation in about 20 minutes. If I'm really hard up I will just let the APAP settle and drink the clear liquid off the top - do that twice and I'd say you got all the goodies and probably less than a single tylenol..

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

"The liver is the only internal human organ capable of natural regeneration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_%28biology%29) of lost tissue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_tissue); as little as 25% of a liver can regenerate into a whole liver. A human liver is known to grow back in no less than 8 years, due to hyptochronatin cells in the remaining liver."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver
My doctor was telling me something like that. Something about some type of tissue or something forming around your liver that helps filter the APAP out quicker when the liver realizes you are taking APAP for extended periods. Maybe BS but he did say that 25% of a liver can regenerate into a whole liver. So maybe he was right. I use to take 10-15 10/500's a day(along with a variety of any opiate I could get my hands on; hence my user name) for like a year or more. The last 2 years have been strictly Norco 10/325 8-12 a day. I've researched and was suprised that the majority of people were fine after a month off APAP, one guy was taking 65 10/650's a day!!!!!!!!! Said he was fine when they screened him. I was shocked. I'm STILL gonna stay at the recommended dose though, I also think Milk Thistle will be coming into my life :P

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

Thought this was interesting...

Liver allografts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allograft) for transplant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation) usually come from non-living donors who have died from fatal brain injury. Living donor liver transplantation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_donor_liver_transplantation) is a technique in which a portion of a living person's liver is removed and used to replace the entire liver of the recipient. This was first performed in 1989 for pediatric liver transplantation. Only 20% of an adult's liver (Couinaud segments 2 and 3) is needed to serve as a liver allograft for an infant or small child.

[bigNasty]

In my town, people prefer 10/650's over 10/325's and i personally know someone who eats 60-80 10/650's a day and have been doing so for years and they're fine. I DO NOT advocate this AT ALL but like someone said, take the FDA's warning with a grain of salt.

When I'm not taking sub, I'll eat 12-20 10/650's a day then drink at night and I've had no problems, but I haven't had my liver enzymes checked lately either so I might be rotting on the inside.

If anybody is gonna have liver problems from too much APAP, it'll probably be in my area cause these dumbass's will turn down an OC 80 for 8 hydro 10/650's

[Duckfeet]

I didn't know too much about this stuff, when I was getting all the percocets and tylox, which had replaced percodans (aspirin and oxy) in doc's prescriptions...I ate and fixed unbelievable amounts of this shit...we just didn't know...but I did have hepC, but liver biopsy showed liver in pretty good shape, actually, for a daily drinker and apap gobbler like me...I think now I just was lucky: hepC gone, liver o.k., but everybody's different, and Harm Reduction means trying to take care of yourself in the stuff you can. I've had friends--w/hepC--die of liver disease and others have to get transplants, so take care of the motherfucker...

What I actually got, last time I gobbled too many norcos, was kidney stones, tho I don't much hear of that from others....it sucked...got me a dilaudid shot in ER, but it still sucked: wasn't worth it.

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

I didn't know too much about this stuff, when I was getting all the percocets and tylox, which had replaced percodans (aspirin and oxy) in doc's prescriptions...I ate and fixed unbelievable amounts of this shit...we just didn't know...but I did have hepC, but liver biopsy showed liver in pretty good shape, actually, for a daily drinker and apap gobbler like me...I think now I just was lucky: hepC gone, liver o.k., but everybody's different, and Harm Reduction means trying to take care of yourself in the stuff you can. I've had friends--w/hepC--die of liver disease and others have to get transplants, so take care of the motherfucker...

What I actually got, last time I gobbled too many norcos, was kidney stones, tho I don't much hear of that from others....it sucked...got me a dilaudid shot in ER, but it still sucked: wasn't worth it.
Weird haha my buddy was rx'd Norco's for his kidney stones but ;it wasn't what caused it.

[rosebud]

My sis has a friend who lost his young wife to APAP OD. She wasnt even a user. Just had a migraine and lost track of how many tylenol she took over a 24 hour period (it turned out she had double dosed several times but still wasnt even at 5000 on her own). She went to the ER and they gave her something with APAP in it that was just enough to tip the scale and she died a horrendous death (and it wasnt real slow either from what I understand). It totally devistated him. They were only married a couple years and getting ready to try for a baby......

From what I understand, it can greatly vary from person to person and can be a bit random too depending on what else is in the mix that particular time frame. I stopped taking APAP after that. I feel much better and no longer get sharp pains in my mid to lower abdomen or a burning tummy. I was taking the max each day for a couple of years.

[digby]

I was taking between two thousand and five thousand milligrams of APAP everyday for about 6 years. My liver always checked out fine and I checked it once or twice a year. But now, even though my liver is ok, my body kind of rebels if I give it even moderate doses of APAP now. If I take over 500 mg, I get nauseated and just don't feel well. Maybe developed an allergic reaction to it over the years - can't say, but it is no longer my friend.

[kyito]

Anyone taking any high dosage of APAP should seriously look into supplementing with Milk Thistle extract or silymarin, the isolated chemical. It is a potent antioxidant that they use for tylenol poisoning in ER's and hospitals. It is cheap and readily available at any grocery store. At 5 to 10 dollars a bottle it is a small investment for potentially saving your liver. Do a google search on it at least, don't take my word for it....please, it could mean saving your life.

[doctor diesel]

Back in the day, when codeine still did its thang for me and I was not very good at CWE, I would regularly drink a pint at a time of uncomfortably cloudy codeine water, and after a few days of doing this and thinking that maybe I shouldn't, I started getting deep, sharp stabbing pains underneath my ribcage.
I stopped drinking that shit, but this pain continued for at least another fortnight before eventually fading away.
A cautionary tale, what?

Doc

[hovadagod]

I'm not talking shit because this is an important topic but I think this could be one of the most recurrent themes on opiophiole. APAP damage.

I would say that if you take APAP every day and stay under 4000mg, just make sure you get your enzyme levels checked. I would guess that it is totally possible to elevate your enzymes by taking 4000mg/day over a long time. But if they ARE in fact elevated, it isn't a big deal because you can stop the APAP and take milk thistle and NAC etc. That will get the enzymes right back in line.

With that said, I don't like to take more than 1000mg of APAP more than once a week these days. I had elevated enzymes once and believe it to be from APAP. I fixed them taking sups.

So IMO, as long as you aren't taking toxic doses you will have time to fix anything you fuck up (assuming you get your liver enzymes checked twice a year or more). But this is risky behavior and if you are mixing APAP wiht alcohol or anything else it is another story completely.

[hopefiend]

[QUOTE=bigNasty;413773]In my town, people prefer 10/650's over 10/325's and i personally know someone who eats 60-80 10/650's a day and have been doing so for years and they're fine. I DO NOT advocate this AT ALL but like someone said, take the FDA's warning with a grain of salt.

i used to get 180 10/660 and i would eat 25 to 30 a day untill i turned yellow and got red blotches on my face...

This website is for you to obtain ifo to keep you out of harms way.

i watched my friend die of liver complications from apap... it was the worst way to die..


UTMFSE and learn how to cwe!!!

[EleusisII]

Relax my *****, you'll be fine!

I've taken 8-10 grams a day and been fine, you see there's a loophole for junkies in APAP toxicity...
The 4 grams is AT A TIME. Think of it this way. Normally your liver has no problems with APAP, it transforms it into somethin NOT harmful... Livers are cool like that. Why do APAP toxicity happen then? Because when you take more than 3-4 grams at a time, the liver runs out of little livercells to transform the shit. The remaining APAP goes "YES! EPIC WIN!" and rapes your liver.
However 6-8 hours later the APAP is gone, both thanks to its halflife and thanks to your heroic liver, and you can bomb the little fucker with vicodin again. Makes sense?

Admin note: This is BAD, BAD information. We *strongly* suggest that it be ignored. Ingest no more than 4 grams APAP per 24 hour period. Better yet, perform a cold water extraction (CWE) to avoid consuming as much APAP as possible.

[EleusisII]

Oh yes, get some N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) at a heathfood store too. It's what they give emos who ate 1000 APAP pills at the hospital, so you can always reverse the damage yourself!

[hovadagod]

I'm not talking shit because this is an important topic but I think this could be one of the most recurrent themes on opiophiole. APAP damage.

I would say that if you take APAP every day and stay under 4000mg, just make sure you get your enzyme levels checked. I would guess that it is totally possible to elevate your enzymes by taking 4000mg/day over a long time. But if they ARE in fact elevated, it isn't a big deal because you can stop the APAP and take milk thistle and NAC etc. That will get the enzymes right back in line.

With that said, I don't like to take more than 1000mg of APAP more than once a week these days. I had elevated enzymes once and believe it to be from APAP. I fixed them taking sups.

So IMO, as long as you aren't taking toxic doses you will have time to fix anything you fuck up (assuming you get your liver enzymes checked twice a year or more). But this is risky behavior and if you are mixing APAP wiht alcohol or anything else it is another story completely.

edit: Just to add, taking over 4000mg of apap in a day is asking for jaundice or liver issues. And even 4000mg every day could tax the liver. APAP is dangerous.

Oh yes, get some N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) at a heathfood store too. It's what they give emos who ate 1000 APAP pills at the hospital, so you can always reverse the damage yourself!

Emo's? Like the guys that wear eye liner?

[Woody Bear]

Relax my *****, you'll be fine!
The 4 grams is AT A TIME. Think of it this way. Normally your liver has no problems with APAP, it transforms it into somethin NOT harmful... Livers are cool like that. Why do APAP toxicity happen then? Because when you take more than 3-4 grams at a time, the liver runs out of little livercells to transform the shit. The remaining APAP goes "YES! EPIC WIN!" and rapes your liver.
However 6-8 hours later the APAP is gone, both thanks to its halflife and thanks to your heroic liver, and you can bomb the little fucker with vicodin again. Makes sense?

This is absolutely not true. It's 4 grams per day is the max limit, not 4 grams every 8 hours like EleusisII says. Even at 4 grams per day, some people get liver problems so a CWE is still advised. Personally, I'd feel totally comfortable 1.5 grams in a single 4 hour period as long as I didn't go over the 4 grams per day limit. But if I needed to take APAP every day, 2.5 grams is the maximum amount I'd feel comfortable with.

But yes EleusisII is totally right about N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) being the treatment for APAP overdose, so taking that and milk thistle extract will definitely help your liver. But it really is best to keep the close to 4 gram daily APAP dose to short term use only.

[edhorfin]

I've seen lver failure from APAP overdose up close. And yes, 4 grams in 24 hours is all it takes for some. God knows, I've gone way over that in the past and been fine, but each body/liver is different.

NAC does work, but the oral doses necessary to reverse acute liver failure are huge. I'd post a link if I could find it. In the hospital, the treatment is IV NAC, for days at a time. The person I knew who OD'd was in the ICU for 3 days. And he was in the ER less than a hour after the overdose. Gastric lavage, the whole nine, and he still almost died. Semi conscious for the 3 days in ICU.

My own liver is swiss cheese from hep c and my kidney stone doc won't prescribe me anything with APAP in it. I'm doomed to using only dilaudid. (he likes the side effect profile better than roxicodone) (me too).

[chopstix]

Relax my *****, you'll be fine!

I've taken 8-10 grams a day and been fine, you see there's a loophole for junkies in APAP toxicity...
The 4 grams is AT A TIME. Think of it this way. Normally your liver has no problems with APAP, it transforms it into somethin NOT harmful... Livers are cool like that. Why do APAP toxicity happen then? Because when you take more than 3-4 grams at a time, the liver runs out of little livercells to transform the shit. The remaining APAP goes "YES! EPIC WIN!" and rapes your liver.
However 6-8 hours later the APAP is gone, both thanks to its halflife and thanks to your heroic liver, and you can bomb the little fucker with vicodin again. Makes sense?

Please, if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, kindly shut the fuck up, k?

Good chance that ~%80 of the IV users on this board have HCV and quite a few don't even know it. Every IV user I've told to get tested for HCV who did, came back positive except for 1 person (probably 6-8 peeps total).

The person who first tested me for HCV (+, but I seem to be one of the lucky %15 who beats it) was HCV+ and not an IVDU, she said she shot coke once in the 60s, possible she got it from sharing a tooter, but the point remains: just cause you're all healthy and shit and you happily wolf down pounds of APAP without turning yellow, doesn't mean the next junkie will be able to do the same.

This is a harm reduction board, APAP is toxic, let's not shrug it off and paint it to be some benign lie by the FDA. If you're stupid enough to eat that much in a day, then keep it to yourself.. Again, one major problem with APAP poisoning and liver damage and failure is that people generally don't show many symptoms until *a lot* of damage has been done - you might think that 6 grams you just ate aren't gonna hurt you but how would you know if there aren't any symptoms, yet?

Acute APAP poisoning may not even be apparent for 2-3 days after the OD. Shit is no joke, you're right about the NAC but you're really a fuck of a lot better of NOT needing it.

[JonnyMohawk]

Relax my *****, you'll be fine!

I've taken 8-10 grams a day and been fine, you see there's a loophole for junkies in APAP toxicity...
The 4 grams is AT A TIME. Think of it this way. Normally your liver has no problems with APAP, it transforms it into somethin NOT harmful... Livers are cool like that. Why do APAP toxicity happen then?Because when you take more than 3-4 grams at a time, the liver runs out of little livercells to transform the shit. The remaining APAP goes "YES! EPIC WIN!" and rapes your liver.
However 6-8 hours later the APAP is gone, both thanks to its halflife and thanks to your heroic liver, and you can bomb the little fucker with vicodin again. Makes sense?


http://i37.tinypic.com/2lk61yb.jpg



(some of the worst advice given in quite some time)



.

[HandMeSomeOpiates]

^:cheeky2:^

That was some pretty bad advice hah

[InfectedMushroom]

And I would like to add there is nothing wrong with being "emo" even though it's a pretty dumb term. Aren't we all emotional at points in our life?

[EleusisII]

Every IV user I've told to get tested for HCV who did, came back positive except for 1 person (probably 6-8 peeps total).

IVusers taking Vicodin is pretty rare, don't you think?

Meh, I stand by what I said. As long as you don't exceed 4 grams of APAP at a time, you're fine if you do some more 8-12 hours later.
(Though I'd like to add, that if you have a healthcondition that strains the liver, APAP is best to be avoided alltogether)
There is such a thing as halflife, and the halflife of APAP is estimated to be 2-4 hours.
The liver is natures best garbageman, and is perfectly equipped to deal with APAP. As long as it isn't overwhelmed by it, not over a 24 hour period, but at one time.
Obviously they had to set a maximum daily dose somewhere, and they chose to be on the safe side.
Explain this... If somebody takes 4 grams of APAP, why exactly shouldn't he be able to take another 2 or 4 grams 12 hours later? Most of the APAP is gone through it's halflife, and what's rest of it has been converted to a safe drug by the liver a long time ago.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to overdose on APAP on 4 grams or less in rare cases, but the vast majority will be fine. Just take it easy, and find your own ceiling. Plenty of people on the site have taken, or know people who've taken 7-8 grams of APAP a day and been fine. As long as it's not in one dose.

[hovadagod]

It's not a half-life issue. It's about an enzyme that the liver produces that breaks down the APAP. Once you run out of this enzyme (which can be produced by taking NAC), your liver is forced to use its back up system to break down the APAP (P-450 enzyme system or some shit). When the p-450 system is used to break down APAP, a toxic metabolite is produced and it is horrible for the liver.

The half life of the APAP is not what indicates whether the p-450 system is in use. So please don't guage liver poisoning by the half-life of APAP.

[candy]

To be safe, no more than 4 grams of APAP in a 24 hour period.

Let's just leave it at that and encourage those who are taking large amounts of APAP to stay at this level or less per day.
Why push your luck and take more than necessary.
There are plenty of threads and posts that will walk you through cold water extraction.
Take the time to learn CWE and save yourself the problems later.

Why tempt fate?
And if you so choose to take more than the recommended dose, that is your choice.
We still like to encourage others to practice reducing potential harm to themselves and will continue to encourage anyone using APAP to stay under 4 grams a day.

[edhorfin]

I'm not saying that it's impossible to overdose on APAP on 4 grams or less in rare cases, but the vast majority will be fine. Just take it easy, and find your own ceiling. Plenty of people on the site have taken, or know people who've taken 7-8 grams of APAP a day and been fine. As long as it's not in one dose.

Take it easy=good advice....but I have a hard time understanding "finding your own ceiling" as anything other than finding the lethal dose. If you found how much APAP is toxic to you, chances are, you're going to be very sick indeed. The fact that APAP overdose is the number one cause of acute liver failure in the U.S. should be enough information for the op to draw their own conclusion.

The idea that the FDA/DEA could change the laws forcing mfgrs to bind hydro to APAP and make those drugs both safer and more effective is plainly evident. If they passed those laws to stop people from abusing hydro I think they failed. At least until someone dies of liver failure. I guess then they stop taking vikes.

[Papa Verine]

With livers, and with almost all human anatomy, everybody's different. It's just not safe to be talking about how we've taken 8-10,000 mgs a day. Because somebody's going to read that and say "Hey Papa-assfucker took 10 grams at one, I can do it too!" It's different for everybody so let's stop saying shit like that from now on. It's the responsible thing to do I guess...

Don't get me wrong... I've been guilty of it. I'm sure somebody can dig up a post where I admitted to such things out in the open. I just think it's a good point and we should all try to make it a practice not to do it anymore.

[Poppylvr]

This thread has me "emo" with sad memories of my friend Lori, who died of liver failure from her hydrocodone/APAP addiction.
I don't know how much she was consuming at the end because she had gotten fairly irrational and it was hard to talk with her.
Her death in the ICU, hooked to every conceivable machine, was horrible. She didn't even look human at the end.
Use CWE - it's easy. Do NOT listen to Eleusis - his advice will kill you.
RIP Lori. I hope you found what you were looking for.....

[hovadagod]

CWE is where its at and y ou will learn some basic but importnat chemistry in the process.

[chopstix]

IVusers taking Vicodin is pretty rare, don't you think?

Umm, no, COMMON is a better word, and probably more likely for someone with a tolerance for heroin to wanna eat more hydro than a non IVDU, ya think?? I've spent weeks in Canada running CWE on the OTC codeine caps daily, after over a decade of IV use.

You compartmentalize way too much. Right back in with both fucking feet, huh Barney? :rolleyes:


Meh, I stand by what I said. As long as you don't exceed 4 grams of APAP at a time, you're fine if you do some more 8-12 hours later.
(Though I'd like to add, that if you have a healthcondition that strains the liver, APAP is best to be avoided alltogether)
There is such a thing as halflife, and the halflife of APAP is estimated to be 2-4 hours.
The liver is natures best garbageman, and is perfectly equipped to deal with APAP. As long as it isn't overwhelmed by it, not over a 24 hour period, but at one time.
Obviously they had to set a maximum daily dose somewhere, and they chose to be on the safe side.
Explain this... If somebody takes 4 grams of APAP, why exactly shouldn't he be able to take another 2 or 4 grams 12 hours later? Most of the APAP is gone through it's halflife, and what's rest of it has been converted to a safe drug by the liver a long time ago.5,000+ people read this board, were all those people to take your advice, I wouldn't bet against casualties..

You claim the half-life of apap to be 4hrs, but you don't know what the duration to full enzyme replacement is, considering the official recommendation is 24hrs, we'll go with that.

4g with a halflife of 4hrs - after 12hrs you will still have appx 1/2G apap (+ metabolites) in your system, and a liver that wants a break to restore enzymes, while it's still processing what remains with minimal resources. So what do you do?? Hammer it again while it's down and depleted with another 4+g. Tell me it's not apparent that 4g per dose is flawed thinking. The recommendation is 4g a day, a day is 24hrs - what part of that are you missing?

And just for general infos, regarding liver panels and enzymes in the bloodstream: doesn't tell you much, just that the liver is stressed. Your liver could look like a raisin hit by a semi and you wouldn't know it without a biopsy.

I've told you this before, better to admit a mistake than to run with it looking like an idjit.


I'm not saying that it's impossible to overdose on APAP on 4 grams or less in rare cases, but the vast majority will be fine. Just take it easy, and find your own ceiling. Plenty of people on the site have taken, or know people who've taken 7-8 grams of APAP a day and been fine. As long as it's not in one dose.How does one "find their own ceiling?" Jaundice? Death?? I'd love to read how you found your "ceiling." Get fucking real; key point here: livers don't say shit until they're REALLY sick, finding "your own ceiling" is silly, dangerous advice. How about "Just take it easy, and CWE that shit."

There's a thread on this board somewhere that documents someone who nearly died from apap poisoning, interesting read, he claims NAC, in MASSSIVE amounts, saved his ass. I'll see if I can find it..

Welcome back Barney, I see you been working on that backpedal..

edit: Can't find the thread that accounts a members OD, but I did find a thread that Vaxn8 posted some great info about NAC and some of the processes surrounding APAP toxicity: http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=4431